Talk:Hot Mikado

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Contents 1 Self-Promotion in "Other Productions of Hot Mikado" 1.1 An even larger complaint 1.2 An Update 1.3 Original Complaint 2 Misc 3 1939 Production; Merging articles 4 Unverified section 5 Link to Off-Monroe production 6 Objectionable statement removed

[edit] Self-Promotion in "Other Productions of Hot Mikado"

[edit] An even larger complaint

The only reason QBKooky won't place the names of any other high schools productions of Hot Mikado is because he only wants HIS high school to have any place in the musical's history. See the section on the interview. There should at least be a listing of other productions because HIGH SCHOOL MUSICALS MATTER JUST AS MUCH! ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY WIN PRESTIGIOUS THEATER AWARDS FROM A MAJOR CITY'S THEATER ASSOCIATION! QBKooky, get over yourself and STOP guarding this page like it's something that fell from the heavens. I think it unfair that high schools that actually do the production get no mention whatsoever, and only the one high school that had an interview with the original Ko-Ko be recognized. Therefore, it makes a missing link in the validity of this article as a whole. I agree with the listing of the very few high schools that have performed Hot Mikado. ~Anonymous

Actually, I was the one who tried to include the list of all high schools who claimed productions of the musical, it was Ssilvers who removed the list - and with good reason. If the professional productions aren't listed, the high school productions should not be listed, either. I agree that high school musicals matter just as much, and good for you if you won prestigious theater awards from a major city's theater association - congratulations!

My original impetus for including Ross Lehman's comments were because, frankly, I found them fascinating and, when I'm looking up musicals on Wikipedia, that's exactly the kind of interesting bits of information I like to read. Of course, as I indicated when I posted them, I had doubts about their verifiability, and have no problem with their subsequent removal.

Ultimately, I think it's best that none of the high schools are mentioned on Wikipedia musical pages. Can you imagine what the Wikipedia pages for Guys and Dolls or Oklahoma! would look like if this was the norm? QBKooky 18:39, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with QBKooky. See WP:MUS for guidance about musical groups on Wikipedia. Re: the removal of the Ross Lehmann notes: After I looked at them over and over again, I began to see that, although they were interesting, the gist of them was really just that the authors had done research on the 1939 version and then written their own independent version, which is what the article basically says already. The other info, much of it about Lehman and his relationship to this work, is less important than the fact that the work was revived many times in professional productions, and so that information is now reflected in the article, although more citations would be good. I would suggest putting the Ross Lehman notes on the school's (or individual theatre group's) website, since it would be of interest to students and alumni that you all met with Lehmann and had this conversation. Best regards, --Ssilvers 19:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] An Update

The most recent revision [[1]] has a newly organized version of the list of high schools who have performed the play, in chronological order. I think doing this in list form is the easist way to maintain NPOV, as it elimitates the need for any drawn-out explanation of the show's casts, the reception they recieved, etc - because, for a high school production, they really aren't relevant. QBKooky 04:48, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

List removed. Could add as a "See also" list of productions if you like. Ssilvers 03:12, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay by me - I just figured keeping in more was less provocative to flamers then removing more. QBKooky 18:32, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Original Complaint

Okay, this is getting ridiculous. I'm inclined to take out the entire "Other Productions of Hot Mikado" because it seems like it's just asking people to ego-pad the article with their whole cast list, mentioning the shock and awe of the crowd and all the ovations they got.

From Wikipedia is not: "Editors should avoid contributing to articles about themselves, their direct family or subjects in which they are personally involved, as it is difficult to maintain NPOV while doing so. Creating overly abundant links and references to autobiographical articles, or to articles in which you have a personal stake, is similarly unacceptable. ... Articles about companies and products are acceptable if they are written in an objective and unbiased style. Furthermore, all article topics must be third-party verifiable, so articles about very small "garage" or local companies are not likely to be acceptable." I would take it this would apply to small local musicals, too? Anyone else have any thoughts on this? QBKooky 05:06, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Misc

An explanation of recent changes:

• This page used to be pretty sparse: [March 12 2006 version]
• Recently one of my good friends "jazzed it up" a bit for fun, and to give shoutouts to our own production of the show: [March 30 2006 version]
• After seeing this, my wikipedia-sense started tingling and, knowing that wikipedia wasn't the proper place for shoutouts to our friends, I redid the article, trying to keep to the spirit (and rules) of wikipedia standards.
• A note: the paraphrases in the "Ross Lehman Talks about the Hot Mikado" are directly from the mouth of Mr. Ross Lehman, and so I don't know how [verifiable] that is, except to say that I was there when he said it.

QBKooky 06:24, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

QBKooky's concerns are well-taken. I have removed some of the NPOV stuff, but the discussion with the students should at least be dated.

I also took out the list of high school productions; the professional productions are not listed, so the amateur productions should not be. However, if there are articles or reviews about other productions, feel free to cite them in the references or links sections. You could make a list of productions under the heading "See also". Ssilvers 21:51, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1939 Production; Merging articles

The Hot Mikado (1939 production) article is very short and, in my opinion, should be merged with this one. It should not be difficult to describe both versions in one article: Since the script of the 1939 version is lost, there may not be that much more to say about the 1939 version. Was there a recording?

In any case, the 1986 version, as the article says, was supposed to be the same version, but that became impossible because the original script could not be located. With some good headings to separate the two discussions, I think it would be less confusing, and also more informative, to describe both versions in one article that can compare and contrast the two. Otherwise, anyone who wants to know about the Hot Mikado will have to read both articles anyhow.

Comments? Ssilvers 21:10, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

If the original script couldn't be located, does it mean that the 1986 production basically has nothing to do with the 1939 version — other than its name? If so, this would argue for keeping the articles separate. If they have more in common, it might argue for merging them. Marc Shepherd 22:05, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

If I understand the article correctly (it says, as to plot, "see The Mikado"), both scripts closely follow the plot of The Mikado, so even though Bell could not find the origingal script, and he likely inserted different jokes, the 1986 script would not have been that different, in substance, from what was done in 1939. Apparently, Bell's intention was write something similar to what he though had been done in 1939. So, unless we see evidence to the contrary, why not create one article. Then, anyone who knows about both productions (or at least who has the book about the 1939 production referenced in the article and has seen the 1986 production) can describe the differences and similarities, and, if it becomes warranted, they can easily be split apart. But in the meantime, it seems to me that making one article helps people more simply learn about the Hot Mikado. Ssilvers 23:34, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that combining the two articles can work, but I'll have to sit at the side and support someone else doing the heavy lifting.

Sam asked if there was a recording of the 1939 version. I believe some individual songs were recorded and reissued on LP in the 1970s. I'd have to check my LP stash to be sure I'm not remembering a few songs from The Swing Mikado, however. By the way, shouldn't that one also be mentioned in the proposed combined article? I believe there was direct competition between the two in 1939. That would make this an article on professional jazzed-up versions, whenever performed. Perhaps that is a reasonable scope for one article.

Is anyone going to post "Proposed Merger" templates at the head of both articles?

Pzavon 02:39, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

There is already an article for The Swing Mikado, which notes that the success of The Swing Mikado inspired the production of The Hot Mikado. Ssilvers 03:03, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to hear from someone familiar with the history of the 1986 show whether it has more in common with the 1939 show than just the name. Sam suggests that "even though Bell could not find the origingal script, and he likely inserted different jokes, the 1986 script would not have been that different." What makes you think so? If he had nothing to go on (such as a script) the chances of them being similar seems to me remote.

Of course, since they are both based on The Mikado, they must be similar in that sense. But the fact that they are both similar to The Mikado does not mean they have any further similarity to each other. Marc Shepherd 08:05, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Since they are distinctly different productions, I don't think we have any need to merge them. They is no reason that articles need to be long to be valuable. Merging them would only further confuse the issue of their unrelatedness. Rmhermen 22:06, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unverified section

The section Ross Lehman talks about Hot Mikado seems to be a write-up of a lecture the creator gave at a high school. If relevant, it should be written in an encyclopedic way, and with verifiable sources. Marc Shepherd 07:39, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

No one has been able to provide any verification for the section, so I reorganized the article and removed the section. --Ssilvers 01:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link to Off-Monroe production

Please do not add red links. The easy way to link this production (assuming that it is notable and should be mentioned at all) is the way PZavon did it. However, I think the production is probably not notable and the mention should be deleted altogether. See WP:MUS and WP:NOTE -- Ssilvers 21:27, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Objectionable statement removed

"Hot Mikado has sometimes been criticized for the inclusion of white actors scat singing." - removed: it is an unreferenced statement, and as such appears to be opinion rather than fact. Additionally, what exactly is wrong with white people scatting?

That quote is actually from the Ross Lehman talks about Hot Mikado section of the page that was taken out earlier for being inappropriate (wasn't exactly cite-able, since it was all stuff that I heard him say first-hand when I got to meet him and hear him talk about the show) and I guess that quote held on because it was interesting, or maybe because it was moved into another section. Well, in any case, I see no problem with it being removed, since it is unreferenced. But yeah, some people trace scat singing back to African-American oppression, and it was offensive to them to have white actors doing it. Who knows. QBKooky 05:47, 4 July 2007 (UTC)