Talk:Horten Ho 229

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The table on the right says that the maximum speed was 977 km/h while the text on the right says that the plane met the 3x1000 rule. Is it me or is there something wrong? Halibutt 08:19, Jun 28, 2004 (UTC)

Dealt with it.--DooMDrat 11:40, May 24, 2005 (UTC)

How this could be, that the ferry range is less than twice the combat range? --Grzes 00:24, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Okay, it says that it was mistakenly referred to as the Gotha Go 229, won't someone move it to the Horten Ho 229 page and make this one a redirect? Cal 1234 15:46, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)

Done.--DooMDrat 07:17, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Stealth

Northrop had access to the Horten, then much later on developed the B-2. But so what? Is there any real evidence that studying the Horten had any impact on the development of such a radically different aircraft so many years later? I've left it in for now as I suppose it's possible, but I do find it unlikely. Coyote-37 11:42, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

It's not exactly so radical to believe that. I mean, they had the Ho-229 and the B-2 had the same basic single-wing shape, and part of the B-2's stealth comes from carbon-based materials and whatnot. - RPharazon 01:51, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

I remember watching a Discovery Channel documentary about stealth technology. People involved with Skunkworks visited the National Air & Space Museum to study the Horten Ho 229. - Nthguy

I've looked into this a bit more and realised that Northrop has a history of developing flying wing aircraft since the Horten was captured. So in a sense the Horten was the beginning of a development chain that eventually led to the B-2, after many aircraft in between. Interesting stuff, I wouldn't ever have made the connection. Coyote-37 14:06, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually, Jack Northrop had a history of developing flying wings at the same time the Germans were developing this one. It's either Secret Aircraft of the Allies or Secret Weapons of the Allies on the History Channel that deals with Northrop developing flying wings in both bomber and fighter variants before and during the war, but these were largely ignored as practical for various reasons.

Those Discovery and History shows are full of um... very rampant imagination. Jack Northrop was certainly inspired by Horten brothers' pre-WW2 work with flying wings but he has been working in parallel throughout WW2. The YB-35 and YB-49 bombers were certainly created long before anyone had access to the Ho 229. At the time of YB-49 testing in the 1940s it was noted to have a low radar signature, and B-2 was development of that concept and not the Ho 229. - Emt147 Burninate! 05:38, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Northrop's work on the flying wing design began in 1923, not very long after the Horten's, actually. Though they did begin before he did. Intrestingly, it is more likely that both worked without the others ideas as a basis but were more based on a 1918 publication by von Prandlt in which an emphasis on a thick wing was made concerning aerodynamics.

I don't have the reference in front of me, but...It's my understanding that the Hortens focused on all-wing gliders in the beginning, and at a glider competition in Germany they set a new altitude and time aloft record. This proved it was possible to have a controllable "all-wing" craft. This glider was pictured in the New York Times at some point, and a month later the US Army asked Northrop to develop a powered prototype based on that photograph, obviously for its stealth potential. Go229 03:29, 2 May 2006 (UTC) (Although I'm sure it's possible Northrop was chosen because he had pre-existing work on all-wing aircraft) Go229 04:13, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Unless the Horten brothers also invented a time machine or a crystal ball, the "stealth" talk is unsubstantiated because radar was purely theoretical at the time. Let's drop it once and for all please. - Emt147 Burninate! 02:04, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
The design of the HO 229 seems to have taken place in 1943-44, at a time when both the allied and the germans had access to radar technology. According to the web page referenced, the construction was to fill the space beetween two wooden sheets with sawdust, charcoal and glue, a crude version of a composite. The charcoals only function seems to be as a radar absorber, which is a plausible invention at that time. But I would not call the charcoal component "carbon fiber", as it is another thing, and would also add strength to the structure. As described in the linked text, the fiber material in the composite is the sawdust.
Jack Northrop was chosen because of his experience with flying wings. No conspiracies, no stealth technology. - Emt147 Burninate! 05:25, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I was quite suprised myself when I found out how early crude Radars were invented, and quickly improved upon because of the war. This article (http://www.vectorsite.net/ttwiz1.html#m1) claims a British scientist dramatically improved an existing Radar in February of 1935, making it finally useful against aircraft (it was previously used to locate ships and icebergs at night and in the fog) Also, The majority of the Ho-229's skin was carbon-impregnated plywood. It could be argued the plywood was to save on aluminum, but the carbons only possible use was to absorb radio waves (discovered by Hertz in 1888) which carbon does quite well. Go229 04:13, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Hang on - there is no claim that we Brits invented radar for detecting aircraft - its a well known fact. Thats mainly how the Battle of Britain was won.Engineman 15:05, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I've heard comments that YB-49 was difficult to track on radar but nothing from a credible source and therefore nothing that belongs on Wikipedia. The same goes for carbon-impregnated skin on Go 229 unles you can cite a good reference. - Emt147 Burninate! 05:28, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

…from the book, "Nurflügel", by Peter F. Selinger and Dr. Reimar Horten…” The skin was very thick: 17 mm, all plywood; three times the necessary strength. On the production aircraft, this would be replaced by two 1.5 mm plywood sheets, with a 12 mm layer of sawdust, charcoal and glue mix, sandwiched in between. The charcoal would diffuse radar beams, and make the aircraft ‘invisible’ on radar”… http://www.nurflugel.com/Nurflugel/Horten_Nurflugels/horten_nurflugels.html

The German interest in radar invisibility was triggered by the de Havilland Mosquito - an English high speed, long range fighter/reconnaissance plane built from laminated wood which was, due to its material, only barely detectible by the German air defence radar system (Reichsluftverteidigung West, see e.g A. Galland 'Die Ersten und die Letzten'). The Mosquito was a continuous annoyance and could not be brought down due to lack of early warning time before the Me 262 in its night fighter version was available, The radar absorbing composite materials had been developed (and employed) for the U-boat's snorkel air intakes (Codename 'Schornsteinfeger), so that material was available too. Radar scientisis probably noticed the low radar profile of a Nurflugel aircraft as well as the advantages connected with the lack of right angles (tailfin, engine pods etc.), see the interesting discussion in 'In the valleys of shadows' by D. Baker, Air International, Sept. 1995.

Considering the importance of radar, and the desperate situation of the German air defence (not to mention the barely existing reconnaissance and attack capabilities) it seems plausible that considerable effort went into the development of stealth capabilities although I would believe that the Horten aircraft was chosen because its geometry had stealth potential, rather than specifically developed with this aim in mind. 23.01.07, Gerald.

I watched an apparently well resourced documentary on BBC which showed that the Germans had a plan to drop a nuke on Washington at the end of the war as a last ditch effort.

A competition produced 3 designs that could reach the US - which were amazingly:

a manned sub orbital vehicle a bit like the space shuttle, with chemical booster rocket assisted take off a 3 stage unmanned version of the V2 - essentially the Titan man on the moon approach ICBM. A flying wing stealth type bomber - the Horten.

Should be some mention of this here? Engineman 14:59, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Sources are sketchy to say the least, but according to "The Horten Brothers" by David Myhra, the 'Amerika Bamober' that was chosen (supposedly) to carry Germany's atomic bomb to the US was going to be a Horten all-wing aircraft (oddly) designated the Ho 18-A. That book contains artistic renderings of proposed Ho 18 designs and a drawing of the bomb itself. There would seem to be some debate about the nature or even the existence of this device (a quick google search won't deliver any hard facts), but the Hortens appear to have been quite certain of the order for the aircraft (though claimed no knowledge of the intended payload) and the French troops who blow up the facility housing two Uranium filled devices are equally convinced of the existence of the German atomic bomb(s). However, the French troops also did not wait for the ALSOS team to investigate before blowing the building, so we will never know. Ultimately, such a thing-- Ho 18 and German atomic bombs-- are a different subject altogether, and should have their own arcticle. I'm sure that discussion page will be filled with even more speculation then normal. Nwilde (talk) 23:53, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hortens and Northrop

Can someone actual site a source for Jack Northrop being influenced by the Hortens or vice-versa? They both began playing with all-wings in the 1930s so it seems reasonable that one may have inspired the other, but beyond inspiration-- is there any tangible connection? I ask this because other then both developing all-wing aircraft at the same time, there doesn't appear to much simularity in the designs. Northrop's are slightly swept, flat in chord span-wise, straight lined at the leading and trailing edges, their internals are sparsely distributed across the span, and they are truly all-wing with few protrusions. Hortens' are steeply swept, have distinctive dihedral, twisted chord span-wise, often dramatically curved trailing and sometimes leading edges, are densely packed in the central body, and often have a central body though these are well blended in their later aircraft (like the Ho229). Aerodynamically, they're quite different: Northrop's wings are just that-- wings, as if the fuselage had been deleted and the remaining wings were bonded together; the Ho229 (and Horten's earlier gliders) has a distinctive center section of blended wing-body joined to high aspect ratio out sections. When I look at a three view drawing of the Ho229 and, well, any Northrop all-wing plane I don't see any simularity other then a lack of a tail. I guess what I'm saying is this: even discussing Northrop, beyond saying that the Hortons' ideas were not unique, is distracting from the subject, is probably not accurate, and could quite possibly an insult to either or both parties. So, let's keep Northrop's mention in the arcicle to a minimum, it already borders on irrelavence and the discussion above certainly does. (Though I find it entertaining nonetheless!)

As for the B-2/YB-49/stealth discussion above, I think it must kept in mind that the technological gap between the developement of the YB-49 and the B-2 is such that the B-2 was probably "influenced" by the configuration and little more. Other then their wing span, what simularities are there? A glance at their plan view makes the B-2 look more like Ho229 then a YB-49 (blended body, higher AR outer wings, engine placement). Just thought I might add some fuel to the fire.  ;) Nwilde (talk) 01:36, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fate on V1-V6

I moved the comments 168.91.4.66 put on the article page here. - Alureiter 22:24, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

The versions provided by the article are incorrect. The V1 was a glider (no engines) and was captured by the the US Army. It was considered to have no research value and was destroyed by the military. The V2 crashed during testing and killed the test pilot Lt. Erwin Ziller. The V3 is the only known version to survive the war and is currently stored at NASM's Paul E. Garber Restoration, Preservation & Storage Facility in Silver Hill, Maryland. The fate regarding V4-V6 is unknown.
http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/horton_229.htm
Also the Horten v3 was intact after the war, pictures of the partially completed center bodies were being produced at the Gotha aircraft factor. Versions v4 to v-7 were in various stages of completion in the factory.
- 168.91.4.66 21:30, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

There was also a mockup built at Ilmenau. I've been told that some photos where taken, but these photos seem to be missing als well as the fate of the mockup is unknown.193.132.159.169 08:51, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

The mockup was also designated V 6 - the blueprints say V6 Atrappe = V 6 mockup. This was the mockup for the planned production version. V 3 to V 5 where in progress at Friedrichroda, but V 4 and V 5 progressed not much more than the tubular framework. None of them was a night figter design or two-seater. The Ho IXb designs have also been designated V6 or V 7 by the Hortens but the development was independent from the work under the direction of gotha. So thetre actually were 2 V 6 - the one developed by Gotha - a single seater and one developed by the Hortens - a two seater Version. Please read the book from Ottens and Shepelev or have a look at the documents archived at the Military Archive in Freiburg Germany and the Smithsonian Institute ! 193.132.159.170 14:37, 15 January 2007 (UTC) (Erzwo @ german Wikipedia)

[edit] NPOV and unverified

This article has a lot of sweeping generalizations, suggestions of conspiracy, and gushing superlatives. Many violate NPOV and not a single one is supported with references. Either a considerable copyedit or thorough referencing is needed.

Not to mention claims of stealth. - Emt147 Burninate! 05:18, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

The majority of that was added by a single user [1].--Drat (Talk) 11:49, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
I have removed a lot of speculation. It needs a thorough rewrite and documentation. - Emt147 Burninate! 05:49, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bizarro aerodynamics

I have removed this section from the article:

The Ho 229's design was far ahead of its time. The wing had a twist so that in level flight the wingtips (and thus, the ailerons) were parallel with the ground. The centre section was twisted upwards and provided the majority of its lift. Because of this twist in its shape, if the pilot pulled up too suddenly, the nose would stall (lose lift) before the wingtips. This meant that the craft's nose would dip in the beginnings of a stall causing the plane to accelerate downwards, and thus it would naturally avoid a flat spin. Horten also noticed in wind-tunnel testing that in the beginnings of a stall, most airfoil cross-sections began losing lift on their front and rear edges first. Horten designed an airfoil cross-section that developed most of its lift along the centerline of the wing. Since the centre line had high lift and the front and rear edges had low lift, it was called a "Bell-Shaped lift curve". The wings were also swept back at a very modern and optimum angle which enhanced its stall-resistance, and also lowered drag, helping its top speed. This made the Ho-229 easy to fly and very stall-resistant in all phases of its operation.

This is NPOV, speculation, and some really bizarre aerodynamics. I honestly don't understand what did what in the design. Pitch up/down in stall is a function of which part of the wings loses lift first and where the centre of lift shifts in relation to the center of gravity. It has nothing to do with which part provides the most lift and certainly not with flat spins. Most airfoil sections create lift at 1/3 of the chord, not leading and trailing edges. And so on... If anyone has credible references and wants to rewrite this properly, please do so. - Emt147 Burninate! 05:54, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

The "twist" in the wing wasn't uncommon, though a physical twist tended to be regarded as crude by WWII standards. It's known as "wash-out," the idea being that the wingtips had a flatter angle of attack relative to the inner wing sections. Thus, at critical angles of attack, the center sections of the wing would stall first while the wingtips remained "flying," preserving aileron authority when entering a stall. This is acheived in one of two ways: an actual physical twist along the wing cord, or an aerodynamic twist in which the outer airfoil sections are of slightly different shape. The latter is considered more elegant and practical. The writer is wrong about swept wings increasing stall-resistance; they'd significantly raise the stall speed of the wing, making the a/c more likely to stall in low speed/high angle of attack configurations (landing, steep turns, sudden high-speed pull-outs, etc.)

Therein was my complaint. The paragraph suggests the wings had washout and then proceeds with a bunch of nonsense about aerodynamics. - Emt147 Burninate! 17:53, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article Source?

It seems that this article, or at least part of it, was copied from awnsers.com... don't know if that helps Vesiv 18:09, 27 April 2006 (UTC)Vesiv

Answers.com along with about a dozen other websites is a Wikipedia mirror. - Emt147 Burninate! 18:24, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plane's name/article title

The first sentence of the lead says that "Ho 229" is incorrect, but this is the title of the article. Which is correct? Miremare 18:41, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

The first sentence is basically correct, the Horten H9 is frequently mislabeled the Ho-229. What that sentence fails to establish is relavence to this arcticle, namely that the Ho-229 was a combat aircraft based on the aerodynamics of the H9 test aircraft. You're absolutely right, the first sentence leaves the reader scratching their head.Nwilde (talk) 23:31, 2 June 2008 (UTC)