Talk:Horilka

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[edit] AfD

closed: keep Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Horilka. `'mikkanarxi 19:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Post-delete flag edits

Mikkalai, this is principally intended for you (as your talk page requests that discussions with you be conducted on article talk pages). Obviously my editing was not intended to somehow initiate a battle and I agree with you that flavoring a vodka does not make it any less a vodka. However, if certain flavors are only used in Ukrainian spirits branded "horilka" and usually not in those branded "vodka" it makes for a compelling argument that there is a difference. Whether that is or is not the case, also, this is currently an article on horilka and not vodka. It remains that way until there is a decision on the Articles for Deletion listing. As such, removing content that improves the article itself, regardless of whether such content makes it more or less compelling in relation to the deletion argument, is a form of vandalism. I believe this was a misunderstanding of intentions and not actual vandalism in this case, however, please only work to improve the article. DvonD 00:30, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

First of all, I am sure you are familiar with wikipeida's policies WP:CITE. Second, Polish brands of wodka may also have their peculiarities, but this is not a reason to have an article wódka or gorzałka or Belarusian harelka (being a belarusian myself, I woud very much like to have it, but I also have some common sense not to do it). Also Horilka is not a brand name. For example, take a look here. `'mikkanarxi 00:56, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
  • You are referring to my citation; I was adding the source to the references section when your edit was made (so it bounced back). I would sincerely appreciate, especially as it is the norm in editing Wikipedia, if you refrain from deleting material from an article without a good-faith effort to have any errors of form or disagreeements of language used resolved first. I will be adding the deleted line and the reference in a fresh edit. I would also like to note that my research in order to improve this article has made me much more aware of the basis for your argument -- vodka and horilka share a common origin and likely even a common basic form. I still find, however, that the various flavors and ingredients added to the basic distilled spirit cause Ukrainian horilka to differ from other vodka-type spirits. DvonD 01:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

By the way, the article in the reference list is a journalism bullshit. Like, "My research indicates that vodka was a product borrowed by Russians from the Ukrainian Cossacks some time in the fifteenth or sixteenth century." Not a trace of references in his babble (who the heck is he, by the way). A fun to read, but inadmissible for wikipedia. `'mikkanarxi 00:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

The site is absolutely admissible. It is the web component of a Ukrainian cultural journal geared towards the tourism sector which undergoes a publications board process like any wide-distribution print periodical. Ref: [[1]] and [[2]]. Excluding it because their article does not cite sources would be akin to excluding the New York Times or National Geographic because their articles do not cite sources; it's not original research, it's published research. DvonD 01:07, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
It is published bullshit. The stated facts are not supplied by confirmation references. Even National Geographic and NYT often publish bullhit. You can rely on newspapers only when they quote a reputable expert. A paparazzi has no credibility. `'mikkanarxi 02:20, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Paparazzi? That makes no sense at all in the context you're using it. You're now making arbitrary statements and reverts regarding what you consider appropriate sources. This is ridiculous. You're fighting a battle when everyone else is just trying to improve an article. You've stated that you're Belarusian. You've gone after Ukraine-related articles to delete them. I'm American with ancestry in Britain and Austria - I have no idea what kind of animosity there might be between your country and Ukraine, but this war you're creating is absolutely pointless as far as I can see. DvonD 02:33, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I am withdrawing from editing and discussing this article. I have found Mikkalai to be unreasonable, offensive, and agenda-driven and I opt not to participate. DvonD 03:39, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Ceremoniously"

I deleted this sentence because the mentioned reference http://www.lemko.org/art/madzelan/67eng.html does not describe any ceremonious use. Quoting:

The reception following the christening was not difficult to prepare, for the guests, the godparents of one's child, neighbors and close family members would on the eve of the event drop off all kinds of goodies, and it sufficed for the parents to slaughter a ram and as usual purchase the beer, wine or vodka, so called "horilka"

I.e., this is a usual feast ("reception"), and nothing nationally "celemonial" or "ritual". Mukadderat 16:34, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reference

I've added a list of the various home-made flavoured drinks. Unfortunately, my reference is an inherited photocopy from a cook book section entitled "Home-made drinks", which doesn't cite the source. I suspect it might be from this book I found advertised used on the net:

Georglevsky, N. I., et al, UKRAINIAN CUISINE, Kiev - Technika Pub. - English Translation 1975. Glossy Color Illustrated Boards, 8-1/2 x 6-1/2, 229 pages, Drawings by O. I. Miklovda, Color Photographs. In Very Good condition - A little creasing at bottom corners and gutter edges, mild shelfwear, very clean pages. English translation Edition from the Russian. Includes all kinds of different recipes for Borsch. Also Galushki (Dumplings), Home-Made Drinks, such as Nalivka (Fruit Liquer) and Mead, many meat dishes, including rabbit, Vegetables, including recipes made from vegetable marrow, Desserts, including Babkas and Kissels.

Anybody have access to a copy to check? In my photocopy, the chapter "Home-made drinks" starts with "Mead (a honey drink) has been a favourite with out ancestors since times of yore...." —Michael Z. 2006-12-11 19:34 Z

[edit] Singling out Polish

I restored the wording "The word comes from the same root as the verb hority, ‘to burn’, similarly to Belarusian harilka and south Russian gorelka. It is considered to have come about following the Polish example gorzałka, ..." because this is in accordance with the Etymolohichnyy Slovnyk, vol 1, p 566, which is the source for this section. It mentions other language version of the word, then says "vvazhayet’sya utvorenym za zrazkom p. gorzałka"—"it is considered to be created after the example of Polish gorzałka" (my translation). If you download a .djvu reader, you can see the original text at Litopys.[3]

Others mentioned are Czech kořalka and Slovak. goralka, goržolka, both from Polish. Interestingly, it disagrees with Brückner and Vasmer about the gorelka coming into Russian directly from Polish, saying that it's "more natural to consider it a remnant of Ukrainian influence" ("pryrodnishe vvazhaty yoho naslidkom ukrayins’koho vplyvu"). —Michael Z. 2006-12-12 03:57 Z

[edit] Okovyta

What kind of horilka does Cossack Mamay drink? Isn't okowita a polish vodka? Mukadderat 03:14, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it's just a Slavicized version of the term aqua vitae. A more Ukrainian transliteration would be okovyta. —Michael Z. 2006-12-16 08:20 Z
I apologize for sounding rude, but this question is not just my quriosity. Therefore I cannot be satisfied with your personal opinion. Regretting the misunderstanding, I am forced to stae my question in a more detailed way. The Cossack Mamay is said to be depited with "a bottle of "okovyta" (Ukrainian vodka)". The article Horilka is about ukrainian vodka. I was asking to add description of okovyta here, if it is indeed Ukrainian, or to correct the Mamay's article, if okovya is not genuinely Ukrainian. Mukadderat 06:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I didn't think you sounded rude at all.
I'm no expert, but I think that okovyta is simply the Ukrainian translation of Latin aqua vitae (compare French eau de vie, Gaelic uisge-beatha, Scandinavian akvavit, Polish okowita, etc.). It's a name for any distilled spirit, but perhaps referring to brandy distilled from wine rather than grain alcohol.
Do you know the origin of the quotation saying Mamay had okovyta? —Michael Z. 2006-12-20 04:11 Z
No. I simply occasionally found this article when running google for "ukrainian vodka". Mukadderat 05:28, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

As I see our Ukrainian colleagues are not at all interested in horilka. :-) Good for health. Still, gogle shows some presence of okovyta: [4] ... Ha, last but not least: here we go: wikipedia already has something: Aquavit/Okovita! Mukadderat 05:33, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gorilka?

Shouldn't it be spelled in Latin 'Gorilka', or is the 'Г' pronounced more like an 'H' than a 'G' in Ukrainian? I'm probably way out of line here so sorry in advance, haha. 64.56.225.248 01:59, 18 October 2007 (UTC)