Talk:Horchata

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Seems weird to have the article start with the etymology. Most articles seem to start with a one-sentence description. (Unsigned post by 4.16.250.9)

Contents

[edit] POV content

The material that has been placed in the article mentioning Rosa's seems pretty promotional to me. Rosa's is not the only shelf-stable horchata out there -- in fact, I just bought another brand of shelf-stable horchata tonight, but I have never even seen Rosa's! Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral, not promoting any particular brand, so I hope you can add material that is less promotional of Rosa's. Thanks. ManekiNeko | Talk 10:01, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

OK, not only did the promo material get re-added, this time the Rosa's picture was huge. This does not seem to me to be good-faith editing. ManekiNeko | Talk 20:05, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

A brand used as an example of how horchata is evolving from a homemade only to ready to drink is legitimate. An article on the Kola Nut would undoubtedly also show Coca-Cola. Branded examples are used in Encyclopedia Britannica. I disagree with the previous opinion and therefore have reposted. --HorchataEd 02:25, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

It might be possible to salvage HorchataEd's contributions into something non-commercial and NPOV. His arguments here are not without merit (though in point of fact, kola nut does not show Coca-Cola, and even cola only shows it among several others). The picture could be kept as an example I suppose: honestly I was kind of hoping for another picture on this page. --Iustinus 07:37, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

HorchataEd's contrib history (combined with that of 209.242.5.73, who seems to be the same editor, at least posting the same content) shows intent, IMHO, to promote Rosa's. I don't have a problem with the article stating that horchata, while once typically a homemade beverage, is now frequently bought ready-to-drink in grocery stores and has been for some time now, but going beyond that to promote Rosa's is the problem. (And Rosa's is not any more notable than any other brand. I have seen ready-to-drink horchata at my local grocery store for years, and never have seen Rosa's, so it's not that Rosa's is a unique example of a shift to store-bought product.) Perhaps another photo could be found showing several brands on the shelf at the store, or something. In fact, if I have time I might just take one. At any rate the photo has been inserted for promotional purposes, as far as I can tell. And this discussion is making me thirsty. :) ManekiNeko | Talk 08:28, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. I think I'll go down to the kitchen and get a store-bought ready made shelf-stable horchata (not Rosa's) ;) Another good possibility for a picture might be one of those machines that horchata is often served from in Mexican restaurants, that has a large tank on top with an automatic stirrer.
I was thinking we could handle the commercial contributions just like we handle articles on companies that are added with obvious "POV" purposes: if the company is note-worthy, keep the article, but turn it from an advertizement to a neutral description: neutral being possibly not flattering. But in this case it might be better to just go with your suggestion. --Iustinus 18:28, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
I think the companies that make horchata are likely to be regional, not national or international, so it would be hard to decide which ones are noteworthy. Also, it would be great to get more info on commercial horchata outside the U.S. FreplySpang (talk) 18:41, September 9, 2005 (UTC)
Good comments. I like the idea of getting a photo of one of the horchata machines from a restaurant. I'm going to be away from the computer (and from civilization) :) for a couple of days, but I will keep my eyes open for a good photo op. ManekiNeko | Talk 22:12, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Valencia/Catalan

Joanot has made a couple of changes to this page to emphasize the Land of Valencia. I don't begrudge him this goal, but the fact is that most English speakers know of horchata through the Mexican version, not the Spanish (or if you prefer Valencian) version. Consequently, I think moving the page to orxata is very much uncalled for, and I have moved it back. --Iustinus 16:44, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

First of all, most of the article are talking about Valencian orxata, exactly 4 paragraphs of 5 in total or, in other meaning, more than 68% of the article are talkint about Land of Valencia related beverage. Second reason, the origin of the orxata is in Valencia, and the proper language of Valencia is Catalan, and this Valencian word is more used here than Spanish word. Third reason, the Valencian orxata isn't past history yet, today it's elaborated still. I think there are enough reasons to name it as "Orxata" and to enphasize it as Valencian beverage. Fourth and last reason, "horchata" isn't a English word so, in case to choice a word of another language, it's preferably to try: the most known or the endonym, so perhaps for USA-American people it would be most known as "horchata" but all whole European non-Spanish tourist it's known as Orxata, and it includes also USA-American tourists. I will move and resotre it back as soon as possible. Cheers. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 20:08, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
You have a point about the content ratio. But that should be fixed by adding more about the Mexican horchata. What word is more in use in Valencia is not really relevant because Valencia is not an English speaking country. You are right that neither horchata nor orxata are fully English words, but then again neither are taco, guacamole, or tapas. Furthermore, if you search for obvious English phrases involving the drink on google, you will find that "horchata" is MUCH more common:
  1. "glass of horchata": ≈255 hits vs. "glass of orxata": 3 hits
  2. "drink horchata": ≈513 hits vs. "drink orxata": ≈41 hits
  3. "glass of horchata": ≈255 hits vs "glass of orxata": 3 hits
  4. "cup of horchata": ≈306 hits vs. "cup of orxata": 0 hits
I think this is a significant number of pages to show that the word is used in English, and that like it or not the Castelian form is about 10 times more common! --Iustinus 20:53, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Furthermore, let me point out that the word does appear in the Oxford English Dictionary, under the Castelian spelling. Link (requires subscription) --Iustinus 21:15, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
If you was using a word depending of English using it would be considered as culturally etnocentrist, so it wouldn't be a neutral point of view. If you have no word in English for orxata/horchata, it must be one choiced according to related culture from the subject. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 21:18, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
That's not a very fair argument. And besides, you are the one who argued that "'horchata' isn't a English word so, in case to choice a word of another language, it's preferably to try: the most known or the endonym, so perhaps for USA-American people it would be most known as 'horchata' but all whole European non-Spanish tourist it's known as Orxata, and it includes also USA-American tourists." My appeal to English usage directly answered that point.
And if we take your argument to its logical conclusion, won't we have to move tzatziki to cacık? Rice congee to zhōu? Matzo ball to kneydl? While we're at it, why don't we move Spain, Finland and China to España, Suomi and Zhōngguó. If there is an English expression already in use, I don't think it's racist or ethnocentrist to use it on the English Wikipedia.
Wikipedia:Naming conventions repeatedly emphasizes that it is the most common name, not the most accurate name that should be used. See, for example Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names), and I know I'm not the first person to have pointed this out to you. --Iustinus 21:58, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Please, make no mistake with my own words. I haven't mentioned about racism, but etnocentrism. I don't wanted to say anything negative. Spain and Finland are correct words here, as those are English words, but in the supposed case that there wasn't any English word for Spanish country, which word would you try among "España" (Castillian), "Espanya" (Catalan), "Hispaniako" (Basque), or "Espanha" (Galician)?. I mean that using a name between orxata/horchata depending on linguistic costumes from a not native language related to the subject (Valencian) maybe it isn't a neutral point of view. In spite of these naming conventions, there are some cases that these aren't followed, as by exemple Corunna city. Why? Because of avoiding etnocentrism. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 22:51, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps I overreacted to your words, that is easy to do on the internet. But in my defense "ethnocentrism" even if it is not "racism" can still be a pretty serious charge. But look, I am a native speaker of English, and I use the word "horchata" quite frequently. As I write this, I have just pulled out of my refrigerator a box that proudly proclaims in large multi-colored letters "RICE DREAM HORCHATA." I have shown you hundreds of web pages written in English that use the word. The word is even in the OED, the most prestidgious and authoritative dictionary of the English language. I am a native speaker of English, and I regularly use the word, whereas on your user page you list yourself as En-2. I think that for you to tell me that "horchata" is not an English word, and therefor I should use Catalan orthography is a little like me telling you that the Catalan word bistec is actually an English word and therefore you should spell it beef-steak. That would be patently absurd!
Look, we've gone back and forth on this several times. I mean, I'm currently marking my response with a sextuple indent. ManekiNeko has joined in the conversation, but it's basically just you and me arguing back and forth. Obviously neither of us is going to convince the other, and all we're doing is irritating and boring ourselves. I would rather hold off making major decisions on this page until we can see what other knowledgeable have to say about our disagreement.
I have already stated that I would rather keep this whole page at "horchata." But if it comes down to it, I wouldn't much object to separating it into two pages: orxata about the Valencian drink, and horchata about the Mexican drink. Again, I would rather not do this, because I assure you that in English it is regularly spelled "horchata," but if other Wikipedians like that solution it wouldn't bother me so much. Maybe we could call for a vote somewhere. --Iustinus 17:39, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Don't worry, Iustinus, you have just convinced me with the exemple of "bistec". I suppose that I can to believe you as native English-speaker. And about to divide article into two separate ones, I think that at the moment it isn't necessary, but if the article grows in the future, the sepparation would be necessary. I'm sorry if you have been irritated ever. In my case, it was pleasant to discuss with you. Have a nice day. Adéu-siau. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 21:24, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
Pshew, I was getting worried about this. I'm glad we were able to work it out. Good luck with your endeavors. --Iustinus 00:43, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I cannot speak for European English-speakers, but here in the western USA, the only spelling I have ever seen is "horchata". It is "horchata" when you buy it in stores (on English and Spanish language packaging), and it is "horchata" when you buy it in restaurants -- on menus written in English or Spanish. As Iustinus points out, it's in the OED under that spelling as well. The "horchata" spelling is clearly English at this point, although the word (and the beverage) is not extremely common yet outside of areas settled by Mexican immigrants. Changing the article to "orxata" would not reflect the typical use of the word in the USA. Certainly the article should probably include more information about Mexican horchata since that is what we are exposed to out here in the Wild West, though. :) ManekiNeko | Talk 21:46, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Of course Wikipedia is meant to be international, so American English cannot be the only criterion. If wikipedians from the UK, Australia, New Zealand, India and so on want to contribute to this discussion, I would love to hear what they have to say. --Iustinus 22:14, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I only know the US perspective (and Western at that), so I would like to hear what those from other English-speaking countries say. Based on your Google search and the OED cite, though, it seems pretty clear-cut to me; the word has entered the language as horchata. ManekiNeko | Talk 12:40, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
"Horchata" is, by now, an English word, althought it originated from Spanish, such as "tortilla", "taco", etc. Even if "orxata" was also an English word borrowed from Valencian, Horchata is overwhelmingly more common and the article should not only be named Horchata but there should be a section about Mexican horchata, since the Mexican version is only made with rice and outside Spain (that is, at least the United States and Latin America) it is the only version commonly known.--Vizcarra 21:14, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

(Also, I really am still planning to get some pictures of Mexican horchata when I get a chance. I need to remember to do this.) :) ManekiNeko | Talk 21:51, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I look forward to that. I suppose I could just photograph a glass of horchata, either at home or in a restaurant. But I doubt it will come out as a good illustration. --Iustinus 22:16, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
I added a photo. I still want to get a better one (perhaps of one of the employees scooping horchata out of the jar), but for now this is a nice addition, I hope. I was going to get a photo of one of the horchata machines, but then I had dinner tonight in an establishment that mixes it up in big jars instead, and I thought it was a good photo op. :) ManekiNeko | Talk 05:28, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually, now that I've reformatted the article, I realize that I conceded to Joanot's paragraph count too quickly: only ONE of the paragraphs is specifically about the Valencian horchata! The horchata de chufa and horchata de arroz really have roughly equal coverage here. --Iustinus 02:03, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ecuador, El Salvador

The info about Ecuadorian horchata comes from a blog: The Food Section. And the info about horchata salvadorena comes from a newspaper article about traveling to El Salvador: Detroit Free Press. FreplySpang (talk) 23:50, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Awesome! --Iustinus 05:18, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
A big component of the taste in Salvadoran horchata (and what makes it different from others) is that it contains morro seed, which is the seed of the calabash tree Crescentia_alata. To verify this, check this review of a Salvadoran pupusería somewhere in California. Note: I think Crescentia_alata is the species of Crescentia we have in El Salvador because I remember the leaves of the morro tree are shaped like a cross. Can anyone confirm this?
That's a great find. In my opinion you should add that info to horchata and Crescentia alata. Though it's reasonable to want to double-check the identification of morro with C. Alata first. --Iustinus 17:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
On the page itself, the link goes to Calabash and not Crescentia alata... this is obviously a mistake. [1], aside from this link I can personally confirm the identification. I would fix it but I don´t know whether to add a disambiguation page for Calabash or switch the link on this page. I have already added the info on Crescentia alata which led me here.

[edit] Venezuelan Chicha

Check out the description of Venezuelan chicha. It's not clear to me from that paragraph if it's alcoholic or not, but it sure looks like it isn't. Furthermore it looks almost identical to the Mexican horchata! Can anyone who knows more about this subject comment on this? It might be worth mentioning in the article. --Iustinus 23:20, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I reverted the page to include Chicha as a "see also" again. The Venezuelan variety does seem similar enough to Horchata to fit well as a "see also" -- it doesn't have to be the exact same drink, and so I'm not sure why it was removed unless the person who removed it didn't see the part about the Venezuelan version, or something. (If there's another reason we should know about, I hope that editor will explain it in here.) ManekiNeko | Talk 06:08, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, it seems Vizcarra didn't read my comment here before reverting it. See User talk:Vizcarra#Horchata and User talk:Iustinus#Horchata, mmm. --Iustinus 18:00, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Valencian or Catalan?

Despite the protestations of the Valencians, Valencian is not a language, it is a dialect. To say Horchata is Orxata in Valencian is like saying "Cerveza, or "beer" in American English" - a nonsense expression when 'beer' is the same in all variants of English.80.103.138.48 13:34, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I find that some British beer drinkers only use "beer" for a subset of the beverages that Americans apply the term to; I'm not sure Miller Lite would qualify, for instance.--Joel 19:45, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I must disagree with the statement, that Valencian is only a mere dialect. As an American born and raised in Spain (now living in Germany for the past 15 years) I can assure the readers that if you visit the city of Valencia today, you will find trafic signs, newspapers, TV channels, literature in Valencian, which is a derivative of Catalan. The language is generally and officially recognised as a Spanish language, next to Catalan, Basque, Galician and Castillian. I am personally very greatful that the Valencian people are not as separatist as some of the other regions in Spain. I certainly respect the heritage and existance of all of Spains regional languages. Nevertheless, I must say that I feel that the spelling "Horchata" is the better choice, because this spelling is also being currently used within in Spain and most significantly within the region of Valencia. I just purchased 12 bottles of Horchata from a Valencian brand in Spain (which I brought back with me to Germany) and the bottles are labeled Horchata. When it comes to frequency and geographical coverage of usage, I do not think that there is a single Valencian who would argue against the fact that Horchata predominate over Orxata. --Janper 22:23, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
Where were you when I was arguing about this with Mr. Martorell? ;) --Iustinus 22:32, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I wish I could have helped out with my late contributions, but I just bumped into this article because I wanted to find out what "chufas" (tigernuts)are in English, while sipping at my exotic glass of horchata on ice (practically unavailable in Germany). I must admit that I have never herd of tigernuts before. It is too bad that the American continent is deprived of this traditional Valencian version, but I am also open to tasting the Mexican and Central American versions. I really enjoyed your discussion with Mr. Martorell and I greatly respect both of your views and arguments. In a way this discussion is really a symptom of globalisation. On the one side is not only the old world, but a very provincial deep rooted position and on the other the reality that the product and the term have become global entities. --Janper 23:02, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
An interesting perspective. As for chufas, I almost never hear "tigernut" outside of the sentence "in English they are called tigernuts" ;) "Chufa" seems to be much more common in actual use (though I have once or twice heard "grass sedge"). Of course chufa seems to be just as foreign to Spanish speakers from this part of the world: they look at me like I'm crazy if I tell them it's a Spanish word. I've never gotten to try a true Horchata de Chufas, nor indeed any kind besides the Mexican variety. But I would really really like to! --Iustinus 23:23, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rice or not?

The article currently reads:

In Central American and Mexican cuisine, horchata is a rice based beverage. While the drink is usually white and "milky" it can be made dairy-free through the use of rice and/or blanched almonds, though some recipes call for milk.

Wait, it's a rice-based beverage that cane be made dairy free through the use of rice and/or blanched almonds?? Was that second sentence originally in another section, because it doesn't seem to fit here. --Iustinus 16:10, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kern's?

The section of the article that reads "Kern's Nectars, best known for its fruit nectars, has introduced several flavors of horchata in 2006 to cater to the growing Latino market. [2][3]" strikes me as promotional in nature and not particularly encyclopedic. There have been other brands of horchata that are new in the last few years, and I don't see what is particularly notable about this one. Any other thoughts about this? ManekiNeko | Talk 07:38, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Having received no feedback on this since December, I am going to remove that section. It just isn't encyclopedic, for the reasons I mentioned above. ManekiNeko | Talk 00:39, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit]  ???

??? --???

[edit] Tree or vine?

Is horchata made from the seeds of the calabash tree, or the calabash vine? Both are also referred to a "morro" in Wikipedia, but, since they're botanically quite different, I imagine the term only applies to one of these plants. Does anyone have an authoritative source?--Joel 19:42, 13 August 2007 (UTC)