Talk:Honorific speech in Japanese

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Japan, a project to improve all Japan-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other Japan-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the assessment scale.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.
Japan To-do:
This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Languages, an attempt at creating a standardized, informative, and easy-to-use resource about languages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
language Portal
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
Archive
Archives
1

Template:Archive box/box-width/undefinedTemplate:Archive box/image/undefinedTemplate:Archive box/image-width/undefinedTemplate:Archive box/auto/definedTemplate:Archive box/1/undefined

Contents

[edit] shikari

I was contemplating removing "hai" from the tables at Combining respect and politeness, where it was inserted as a formal variant of "yes". It is indeed a formal word, but not exclusively so. Then I saw the word shikari in the same column. It's supposed to be a formal word for yes. Now, my level of Japanese is, all humbleties aside, very high, but I've never heard of this word before. My Kojien doesn't have it. And Kojien includes all kinds of stuff, even archaic and regional words. So I'm wondering: where does this come from? Can anyone confirm the existance of this word? TomorrowTime 14:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

My kojien has it. Maybe you weren't expecting it to be in kanji? しかり【然り】(自ラ変）（シカアリの約）そうである。その通りである。
That said,　I think that entire table is confusing and not really helpful. When it says that ある is formal form, it is obviously not referring to spoken language. Should we perhaps delete it? Mackan 20:54, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Naruhodo. My bad, I missed that.
Well, this: 私 (wata(ku)shi), being the general first-person pronoun, is also used by females isn't an example of a concise and understandable sentence, either. I'm not sure what should be done about the table, but for starters, I'll see if I can clarify the above sentence a bit. Oh, and I'll also remove hai from the "formal" column :) TomorrowTime 11:56, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] keigo in business

I removed this part from the Usage: Business section:

Keigo is used when attendants speak to a customer (even in the supermarket and on trains), in formal business meetings, by women in jidaigeki (in all situations) and by educated people in general.

Ok, point by point:

-attendants to customers: this part I wouldn't mind seeing re-inserted somewhere. The bracketed explanation is a bit superfluos, though.
-formal business meetings: this is already covered in the section.
-women in jidaigeki: huh? I thought the section was on keigo in business enviroments...
-educated people in general: possibly worth reinclusion, but would have to be thorougly rephrased. I've met educated people that weren't all that hot on keigo. Keigo is not a sign of education, and a lack of keigo doesn't necesarily mean a lack of education. TomorrowTime 13:57, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move. JPG-GR (talk) 06:49, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

As noted in several comments above, this page covers a very notable aspect of the Japanese language, keigo, but the current name is misleading. One would expect to find Japanese titles or Japanese pronouns used as terms of address, and they're now both on different pages. I suggest we move the page to Honorific speech in Japanese. I think "honorific speech" is indeed the phrase commonly used to refer to keigo in English, as in the title of Miyo Okada's book; "polite speech" is used as well, but it's mostly used for 丁寧語 specifically. Keigo will continue to redirect here as expected. There's a redirect for sonkeigo as well; it may be appropriate to create kenjōgo and teineigo as well for consistency.

Along those lines, this article is clearly not the right place to merge Oneesama. Bikasuishin (talk) 10:24, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

One quick comment: the merger proposal for oneesama is the result of an AFD ([1]), and as such already discussed and agreed upon. I agree that this is not the place to merge to - Japanese titles would be a better place. TomorrowTime (talk) 12:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

[edit] Discussion

The current title is not the best; the Japanese titles article belongs here instead. But are there more cited examples of English terms for keigo? One that is used in liguistics is register (linguistics). Another article that straddles honorifics and honorific speech is Korean honorifics. Should it be dealt with now as well? — AjaxSmack 01:20, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Keigo refers to a single, or rather a small range of, speech registers in Japanese. Basically, it's the formal and the more formal.
As for moving, or splitting, the Korean honorifics page, it sounds like a good idea from this non Korean-speaker's uninformed perspective. Bikasuishin (talk) 20:52, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

(Outdent) Concerning Bearian's comment that a redirect page is needed: where should Japanese honorifics redirect if the move is endorsed? Should it continue to redirect here, or rather to Japanese titles? Bikasuishin (talk) 23:06, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Japanese honorifics should redirect to Japanese titles, not here, and maybe that article should even be renamed Japanese honorifics itself. (cf. other articles at Category:Honorifics). — AjaxSmack 02:50, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.