Talk:Honor killing/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

NPOV dispute

Given the anonymity of the sources, I'm not sure the "Hamas and Honour Killing" bit should even be there. But if it's not, people will probably regularly try to re-add it without mentioning the suspiciousness of the claim's sources... - Mustafaa 23:39, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I agree with this comment about the entry on Hamas and honour killings being removed. The IDF is clearly not an impartial source on Hamas, with whom they are openly at war, and anonymity adds another layer of questionability. [Anon. 10:00 09 Dec 2005]

Whether or not it is appropriate for the Honour killing topic, the Gaza Hamas "Anti-Corruption Unit" is a reality. Similar to the Muttawa of Saudi Arabia, they act to maintain "purity" and "morality". The Muttawa, however, is a government sanctioned body, whereas the Hamas branch is a vigilante organization. (This could change, depending upon the new political situation in Gaza.) According to PA security sources and several eyewitness accounts, the first victim of the Hamas "Anti-Corruption Unit" was Yusra al-Azzami, a 22-year-old Gaza student who was seen in public with her fiance. Five masked gunmen opened fire at Azzami and her fiance in their car. Azzami died instantly, but was still dragged from the car and beaten with clubs and pipes. This was not the IDF or anonymous sources. This is the PA security forces report. -- Seth, 08:07 (UTC) 6 Feb, 2006

In Europe, no honour killings are known to have occurred outside of the Muslim and Sikh communities." This may be true (now that I added Sikh; the original had the easily disprovable "outside of Muslim communities".) However, in the absence of any positive statement to that effect by someone who knows what they're talking about, it appears to constitute original research (by someone who, since they didn't know Sikhs had been involved as well, obviously doesn't know what they're talking about), and is hard to verify. Anyone care to comment? And, more to the point, does anyone have a source which says this and does not make the incorrect claim that only Muslim communities were involved? Mustafaa 18:34, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Since 209.135.35.83 (who I strongly suspect is, like 69.138.236.221, the same person as OneVoice -- but that's neither here nor there) continued to replace the disputed sentence despite perfectly reasonable objections regarding the difficulty of proving negatives, I have changed it to a positive statement, which should be indisputable. If any further examples come to light they should of course be added. I also restored the word "anonymous" in the "Hamas and honour killing section", because it is true—there are no names attached to the statements, and for all we know they could have been psyops. (Not that the story is entirely unbelievable—I can think of similar examples of "dishonoured" women committing suicide—but one has to be careful.) —No-One Jones 13:51, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

For the benefit of anon: Let me be more precise. If you want this statement to say "only", you have to do one of the following:

  • Provide a source that says so, correctly (ie one that does not make the false claim that only Muslims were involved, but does claim that only Muslims and Sikhs were)
  • Pore over every single murder report in Europe for the past ten years yourself (providing a link), and confirm that only Muslims and Sikhs were involved in honour killings.

Till then, "only" is mere speculation on your part, and has no place here. - Mustafaa 21:57, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

inverse (?) phenomenon

I heard (can't recall where) that the Albanian Canon of Lek has a rather similar provision, whereby the family of a "dishonoured" woman (or the woman herself, if she has no relatives) is permitted to kill the man involved. Does anyone know anything about this? —No-One Jones (m) 18:40, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Legal Codes

"several" vs "all"....is this list exhaustive? if so we should have a link to a report that demonstrates that these countries and only this countries interpret the law to allow honour killing. What about Sudan, Iran and Nigeria to name only three that may allow honour killing.

Pakistan is trying to pass a law to outlaw honour killing...therefore it must be allowed at this time, else the law would be unneeded as the honour killings would be presecuted as murder...as is done in the United States....crime of passion being used as an appeal to defend against murder charges. Lance6Wins 14:18, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You are wrong. The Pakistani government's previous position was that no separate law was needed, as honour killings were classed as murder. The problem is that the police think it's alright. [1] - Mustafaa 14:28, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

so the police do not follow the law in pakistan and refuse to prosecute or arrest for honour killings? if that is the case how will passing an honour killings law help? Lance6Wins 16:12, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
The government, however, says that all murders, regardless of the motive are treated the same.
"We do not say it is honour killings; a killing is a killing," said Pir Ejaz Hashmi, the government's adviser on human rights.

If the section is incomplete, how about completing it? - Mustafaa 14:44, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I dont have the needed information to complete it. That is way I do not claim that it is complete. If you have information to demostrate that it is complete then please share. ;) Lance6Wins 16:12, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well, it now has the complete list of countries that the UN says allow the honour defence. Note that Pakistan - where honour killing is illegal - is not among them; as with marijuana in Brixton, the problem is one of enforcement, not permissibility as you seem to claim. - Mustafaa 23:14, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC) According to a recent (c. 23-24 Aug 2006)BBC radio half-hour World Service special about honour killing in Turkey, the legal changes (cited in this article)were not complete but criminalized only one of two types of honour killing. This distinction needs to be noted.

Abuse template

I've removed the {{abuse}} tags. I think they are uninformative in this article and arguably introduce an undesirable POV. </nowiki>

history should be espanded

for example in Italy in the old civil code (Codice Rocco)the killer of an adultress could be given a less serious sanction under the motivation of honour killing --Melaen 01:13, 11 December 2005 (UTC)