Talk:Hong Kong-style milk tea
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[edit] Originates from HK?
I notice this article made several bold claims over its origin, including how it was created in Hong Kong. Any evidence to substaintiate this claim?--Huaiwei 18:04, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I wrote the article, and I don't think it's a bold claim at all. You can look at the Chinese wikipedia. zh:絲襪奶茶, Hong Kong tea culture, or Hong Kong's Tourism Board [1]. Both say that the drink originated in Hong Kong. It's also obvious that the drink is a uniquely Hong Kong one that it doesn't share with its neighbors in Macau and Mainland China or the United Kingdom. --Yuje 18:54, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
- I would presume the Chinese version is also based on souces like the HK tourism board, and I notice the entire article there simply did not make the bold claim that Hong Kong invented milk tea. Even the so-called HK-styled milk tea can be found in all its complete similarities right here in Singapore (yes, right down to the "silk socks", and no, we simply do not consider it as originating in HK). Meanwhile, which tourism board wont make bold claims for the purpose of marketing?--Huaiwei 19:07, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- A programme produced by ATV talked about the milk tea, and they traced back to the shop in Hong Kong where the tea was "invented". Few people can actually tell, for instance, where soccer or badminton was originated from, but that doesn't mean they aren't from that country. — Instantnood 19:34, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
- Thats a strange analogy. Ignorance and unsubstantiated/missing information are two hugely different things. Which programme was that, and which shop was it? Which year was it invented? Who invented it? How and why was it invented? If all these crucial information are missing, then in what way is this claim validated, other then some tv programme (which btw is not exactly always a reliable source for encyclopedia content as well)?--Huaiwei 19:46, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I didn't claim that Hong Kong invented milk tea, only the variant consumed in Hong Kong, which is different from the kind found in say Thailand. The tourism board has articles on Chinese tea, English tea, and Hong Kong tea so it's not trying to exclude influences from other cultures. AFAIK, the beverage is called Hong Kong style milk tea in Taiwan, US, and Canada as well. I've already provided a source. Do you have an alternative source which claims this type of milk tea was invented elsewhere? --Yuje 19:54, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
- There is such a thing called "Singapore noodle" popular in the UK in particular, but the funny thing is Singaporeans dont even know about this dish, nor was it invented here. A HK-opened store in the US is obviously going to refer to it as "HK-style" milk tea, in the same way people actually think Satay is Thai cuisine simply cause they serve it too overseas, so I would be cautious to use this analogy. You claim milk tea served in HK is different from say Thailand, but could you explain the ones served in Singapore? And if you still do not realise how unreliable sources can be when it comes to food, that same page in the HK tourism board claims that Kaya comes from Singapore. Oh is it? That was quite amusing. Meanwhile, I already pointed out your source didnt even insist HK invented milk tea, with only a claim that a "unique" blend of tea leaves was used. So what was this blend? How come in another article here, it insisted the "unique" feature of this tea was the use of those "socks"? If we dont use these socks, it is no longer HK-styled milk tea? If anyone uses it, it becomes one? Heck, I suppose we have to tell the Singaporean public that they have been drinking "HK milk tea" all these while, and not just "milk tea"? ;) --Huaiwei 20:15, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Or should it be renamed as "silk-sock(ed) milk tea"? And one more thing I'd like to make it clear: isn't the milk tea served in Singapore called lie cha (literally "pulling tea")? -- Jerry Crimson Mann 20:23, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Lie cha?? Never heard of that! Are you refering to "Teh Terik", which is a Malay version of milk tea and involved pouring the tea between two cups to produce a frothy beverage? If so, no, I am not refering to it, coz its another type of milk tea. :D--Huaiwei 14:20, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I called it HK-style to distinguish it from other types of milk tea, such as bubble tea. This type is generally associated with Hong Kong culture, such as Hong Kong-styled western cuisine, cha-chaan-teng, and dai-pai-dong. The tea blend contains Ceylon tea leaves, but I don't know the exact blend. The type of tea served in Singapore may differ in blend, preparation, or serving style, so don't be so hasty to immediately equate the two beverages.--Yuje 20:46, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
- You mean you came up the with beverage name yourself? No wonder I cant seem to find it in google. Hmmm. Says alot on the "dish" if it dosent even have a distinctive name. Well, I would strongly caution against assuming differences in tea served here and in HK, because for all we know, the blend used may be similar. I have to add that not only is the "sock" used, but it is also traditionally served in the same type of cup. The "add more milk", "less sugar", blah blah blah...are the exact same commands used here. Hence, we can already see there is no distinction in terms of the way it is served, and the way it is brewed. The only way you could draw distinction now is with regards to its blend, failing which, the claims made in this page needs to be rewrittern.--Huaiwei 14:20, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- The blend actually slightly varies from shop to shop, but I'm no expert and I cannot tell exactly which leaves they use. :-) — Instantnood 21:08, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
- I was expecting that. So if the variation served in Singapore is not tt different from the one in HK, then are we talking about the same drink here? BTW, I typed "milk tea Singapore" in google, and I found one page even claiming milk tea is Singapore's national drink! [2]--Huaiwei 14:20, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- First of all, the name already existed as a requested article. I kept the same name for the reasons above when I created the article, and because it seems to be the most commonly used name in English (the silk sock milk tea is never found on menus). I didn't coin the name myself. For example, these two companies market their products as "Hong Kong milk tea". [3] [4] The Singaporean milk tea you listed is indeed different from the HK milk tea, since as mentioned, it is sweetened with sugar. HK milk tea is sweetened with evaporated milk, not sugar. --Yuje 21:18, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
- So why do you not name this article "Hong Kong milk tea"? Meanwhile, your comment on Singapore's milk tea is quite humurous. For your information, there are actually two kinds of treated milk often used, namely "Evaporated milk", which is unsweetened, and "Condensed milk", which usually is. In fact, "Evaporated milk" is a subset of "Condensed milk". Whatever their definitions, the "sugar" to sweeten the milk for Singapore's milk tea is from the milk itself, and never by plain sugar, so in what way is this different? You do seem desperate to dig up as many differences as you could? :D--Huaiwei 05:09, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Well, Huaiwei, the information I gave is pretty much the same as given in the Chinese wikipedia and in the other articles that I mentioned. Usage varies, between "Hong Kong milk tea" and "Hong Kong-style milk tea". I used the latter name, and someone changed it to "Hong Kong-styled". Here's a publication that uses the latter name. [5] Hete's yet another article which attributes the development of milk tea in Hong Kong to the late Qing period under British colonial rule. [6] I asked you this before, instead of attributing ulterior motives for my explanations, and adopting a confrontational (and unhelpful) attitude to all of my responses, perhaps you could show the basis for why you dispute the factual accuracy of this article, the Chinese wikipedia article, or the Hong Kong tea culture article? Showing an actual information source would be immensely more helpful than any kind of back and forth bickering on the talk page. Can you provide auch a source that offers an altnerative explanation or facts and give suggestions for how you want to reword the parts of the article you are unsatisfactory with? --Yuje 08:59, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
- I am not too sure what your level of proficiency with the English language is, but HK-styled milk tea is actually more grammatically correct. I was not the one who did the change thou. :D Anyway, your source does not support or refute anything mentioned so far. I demanded to know how HK could lay claim to inventing its own style of milk tea, when the same style exists in other places probably quite independently from HK. What you could only produce was yet another article talking about its evolution in HK (which in this article merely refers to how HKers took to drinking tea with milk like the way the British did. Oh...so its not really an invention afterall?). I dont think things will get better if I keep doing the same thing with Singapore-related sources. Notice Singaporeans didnt claim that they invented their own version of milk tea, while HK did, so wont you think its your onus to substaintiate that claim, and not the other party? I dont really appreciate this attempt to pass the responsibility on to others, and yeah, now you know why my tone towards you seems "confrontational"?--Huaiwei 14:33, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- "-Style" is more appropriate, to be frank.
- According to Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary: -style (in adjectives) having the type of style mentioned: Italian-style gardens; a buffet-style breakfast.
- According to American heritage Dictionary: -style as a suffix: family-style restaurant; Bordeau-style wine.
- In fact I'm the one who moved this page, as I just read an article on the HK Magazine, an English magazine in Hong Kong, and it was using the term "Hong Kong-style milk tea". :-D -- Jerry Crimson Mann 15:17, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Whoops! My bad! I need to go back to grammar school. :D Anyway, I see the entire term as a proper noun rather then as an adjective or adverb, hence my believe that "styled" was more appriopriate. But I cant beat a dictionary, so I raise the white flag. ;)--Huaiwei 17:09, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Join the club: I'd the exact same idea as you 24 hours ago. :-D --Jerry Crimson Mann
- lol!--Huaiwei 17:33, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Yes, HK's milk tea traces back to influence from the colonial period but is obviously different from the British style that influenced it. Again, Huaiwei, do you have an alternate suggestion for how the article should be worded? --Yuje 20:39, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
- In fact, the Singaporean have the Singaporean-style milk tea; the Hong Kong people have the Hong Kong-style one; the Macau people have the Macau-style one. There's a strong sense of deja vu when I come across this topic; just like what I have mentioned before, every "standard" food would have myriads of virants, myriads of styles. This applies to milk tea, and curry, and satay to boot. However, I agree with Hueiwai in some points: as milk tea is a "standard" food, presumingly, it's a bit of an oddball to say: Hong Kong people invented milk tea in their own style. It'd better to rephrase the concept, like "Hong Kong people created (a kind of) milk tea in their own style" or "Hong Kong people refined milk tea into their own style/flavour" -- Jerry Crimson Mann 21:09, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- There was, as mentioned above, a TV programme laying a claim which shop started making tea in this way. Whether or not this is true, no evidence has so far been presented in this discussion that something (near-)identical or similar was invented elsewhere. It might be a result of the sense of deja vu, but then to be frank 絲襪奶茶 and 港式奶茶 are the most commonly heard Chinese names in Hong Kong, Guangdong, Beijing, Toronto, etc., and in other Chinese communities. In everyday speech in Hong Kong, it is usually just called 奶茶. — Instantnood 19:08, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
- "...most commonly heard Chinese names in Hong Kong, Guangdong, Beijing, Toronto, etc., and in other Chinese communities." Yea, you did make me remember something...:) -- Jerry Crimson Mann 19:26, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- There was, as mentioned above, a TV programme laying a claim which shop started making tea in this way. Whether or not this is true, no evidence has so far been presented in this discussion that something (near-)identical or similar was invented elsewhere. It might be a result of the sense of deja vu, but then to be frank 絲襪奶茶 and 港式奶茶 are the most commonly heard Chinese names in Hong Kong, Guangdong, Beijing, Toronto, etc., and in other Chinese communities. In everyday speech in Hong Kong, it is usually just called 奶茶. — Instantnood 19:08, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
- In fact, the Singaporean have the Singaporean-style milk tea; the Hong Kong people have the Hong Kong-style one; the Macau people have the Macau-style one. There's a strong sense of deja vu when I come across this topic; just like what I have mentioned before, every "standard" food would have myriads of virants, myriads of styles. This applies to milk tea, and curry, and satay to boot. However, I agree with Hueiwai in some points: as milk tea is a "standard" food, presumingly, it's a bit of an oddball to say: Hong Kong people invented milk tea in their own style. It'd better to rephrase the concept, like "Hong Kong people created (a kind of) milk tea in their own style" or "Hong Kong people refined milk tea into their own style/flavour" -- Jerry Crimson Mann 21:09, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Yes, HK's milk tea traces back to influence from the colonial period but is obviously different from the British style that influenced it. Again, Huaiwei, do you have an alternate suggestion for how the article should be worded? --Yuje 20:39, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
- lol!--Huaiwei 17:33, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Join the club: I'd the exact same idea as you 24 hours ago. :-D --Jerry Crimson Mann
- Whoops! My bad! I need to go back to grammar school. :D Anyway, I see the entire term as a proper noun rather then as an adjective or adverb, hence my believe that "styled" was more appriopriate. But I cant beat a dictionary, so I raise the white flag. ;)--Huaiwei 17:09, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- "-Style" is more appropriate, to be frank.
- I am not too sure what your level of proficiency with the English language is, but HK-styled milk tea is actually more grammatically correct. I was not the one who did the change thou. :D Anyway, your source does not support or refute anything mentioned so far. I demanded to know how HK could lay claim to inventing its own style of milk tea, when the same style exists in other places probably quite independently from HK. What you could only produce was yet another article talking about its evolution in HK (which in this article merely refers to how HKers took to drinking tea with milk like the way the British did. Oh...so its not really an invention afterall?). I dont think things will get better if I keep doing the same thing with Singapore-related sources. Notice Singaporeans didnt claim that they invented their own version of milk tea, while HK did, so wont you think its your onus to substaintiate that claim, and not the other party? I dont really appreciate this attempt to pass the responsibility on to others, and yeah, now you know why my tone towards you seems "confrontational"?--Huaiwei 14:33, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Well, Huaiwei, the information I gave is pretty much the same as given in the Chinese wikipedia and in the other articles that I mentioned. Usage varies, between "Hong Kong milk tea" and "Hong Kong-style milk tea". I used the latter name, and someone changed it to "Hong Kong-styled". Here's a publication that uses the latter name. [5] Hete's yet another article which attributes the development of milk tea in Hong Kong to the late Qing period under British colonial rule. [6] I asked you this before, instead of attributing ulterior motives for my explanations, and adopting a confrontational (and unhelpful) attitude to all of my responses, perhaps you could show the basis for why you dispute the factual accuracy of this article, the Chinese wikipedia article, or the Hong Kong tea culture article? Showing an actual information source would be immensely more helpful than any kind of back and forth bickering on the talk page. Can you provide auch a source that offers an altnerative explanation or facts and give suggestions for how you want to reword the parts of the article you are unsatisfactory with? --Yuje 08:59, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
- So why do you not name this article "Hong Kong milk tea"? Meanwhile, your comment on Singapore's milk tea is quite humurous. For your information, there are actually two kinds of treated milk often used, namely "Evaporated milk", which is unsweetened, and "Condensed milk", which usually is. In fact, "Evaporated milk" is a subset of "Condensed milk". Whatever their definitions, the "sugar" to sweeten the milk for Singapore's milk tea is from the milk itself, and never by plain sugar, so in what way is this different? You do seem desperate to dig up as many differences as you could? :D--Huaiwei 05:09, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- First of all, the name already existed as a requested article. I kept the same name for the reasons above when I created the article, and because it seems to be the most commonly used name in English (the silk sock milk tea is never found on menus). I didn't coin the name myself. For example, these two companies market their products as "Hong Kong milk tea". [3] [4] The Singaporean milk tea you listed is indeed different from the HK milk tea, since as mentioned, it is sweetened with sugar. HK milk tea is sweetened with evaporated milk, not sugar. --Yuje 21:18, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
- I was expecting that. So if the variation served in Singapore is not tt different from the one in HK, then are we talking about the same drink here? BTW, I typed "milk tea Singapore" in google, and I found one page even claiming milk tea is Singapore's national drink! [2]--Huaiwei 14:20, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- While I was in Hong Kong and Singapore, I have tasted BOTH Hong Kong Style and Singapore Style Milk Tea and they are DIFFERENT. So why question the fact that Hong Kong Style milk tea was invented in Hong Kong? The article is correct by definition. The article did NOT claim that Singapore milk tea was invented in Hong Kong, did it? -- David Chung 19:25, 12 July 2005 (Sydney, Australia)
- There are several types of milk tea sold in Singapore (there is no singular drink called "Singapore-styled milk tea), so which one did you consume here before assuming they are all different?--Huaiwei 09:47, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
- From User:Huaiwei's comment I can have come up with a conclusion that a similar or identical variant of tea mentioned in the article is one of the several types of milk tea sold in Singapore. This type of tea is not, however, recognised by Singaporeans (or more accurately, a Singaporean wikipedian named Huaiwei) as originated from Hong Kong. — Instantnood 17:18, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
- LOL!!! Do you know any Singaporeans? Mind asking them if they know of any tea sold in Singapore which "originates from HK"? Jesus...--Huaiwei 18:43, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
- From User:Huaiwei's comment I can have come up with a conclusion that a similar or identical variant of tea mentioned in the article is one of the several types of milk tea sold in Singapore. This type of tea is not, however, recognised by Singaporeans (or more accurately, a Singaporean wikipedian named Huaiwei) as originated from Hong Kong. — Instantnood 17:18, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
- There are several types of milk tea sold in Singapore (there is no singular drink called "Singapore-styled milk tea), so which one did you consume here before assuming they are all different?--Huaiwei 09:47, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
- Or should it be renamed as "silk-sock(ed) milk tea"? And one more thing I'd like to make it clear: isn't the milk tea served in Singapore called lie cha (literally "pulling tea")? -- Jerry Crimson Mann 20:23, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- There is such a thing called "Singapore noodle" popular in the UK in particular, but the funny thing is Singaporeans dont even know about this dish, nor was it invented here. A HK-opened store in the US is obviously going to refer to it as "HK-style" milk tea, in the same way people actually think Satay is Thai cuisine simply cause they serve it too overseas, so I would be cautious to use this analogy. You claim milk tea served in HK is different from say Thailand, but could you explain the ones served in Singapore? And if you still do not realise how unreliable sources can be when it comes to food, that same page in the HK tourism board claims that Kaya comes from Singapore. Oh is it? That was quite amusing. Meanwhile, I already pointed out your source didnt even insist HK invented milk tea, with only a claim that a "unique" blend of tea leaves was used. So what was this blend? How come in another article here, it insisted the "unique" feature of this tea was the use of those "socks"? If we dont use these socks, it is no longer HK-styled milk tea? If anyone uses it, it becomes one? Heck, I suppose we have to tell the Singaporean public that they have been drinking "HK milk tea" all these while, and not just "milk tea"? ;) --Huaiwei 20:15, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- A programme produced by ATV talked about the milk tea, and they traced back to the shop in Hong Kong where the tea was "invented". Few people can actually tell, for instance, where soccer or badminton was originated from, but that doesn't mean they aren't from that country. — Instantnood 19:34, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
- I would presume the Chinese version is also based on souces like the HK tourism board, and I notice the entire article there simply did not make the bold claim that Hong Kong invented milk tea. Even the so-called HK-styled milk tea can be found in all its complete similarities right here in Singapore (yes, right down to the "silk socks", and no, we simply do not consider it as originating in HK). Meanwhile, which tourism board wont make bold claims for the purpose of marketing?--Huaiwei 19:07, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Could someone add information about when and where in Hong Kong this style of tea originated? Early on in this discussion page, mention was made of an ATV Programme "that talked about the milk tea, and they traced back to the shop in Hong Kong where the tea was 'invented'". I enjoy this tea regularly (both hot and cold versions) and would be interested to know more about its origins.
It was also mentioned that "the so-called HK-styled milk tea can be found in all its complete similarities right here in Singapore." I would like to know where this can be found in Singapore. I have been asked by people from Hong Kong now living in Singapore to send thermoses of the tea to them from Hong Kong because in Singapore, what they have found "is not the same". If someone could provide the location where they could find HK-style(d) milk tea in Singapore, I would like to pass this on. Thanks. Hkgharry 01:57, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
- Kopi tiams and hawker centres, they are all over Singapore and Malaysia. Your friend can get it with about S$0.80. FYI, the variation of tea in Singapore and Malaysia are :
- Teh si, tea with evaporated milk,
- Teh, tea with milk and sugar
- Teh kosong, tea with milk and no sugar,
- Teh-O, tea with sugar only,
- Teh-O-Kosong, just tea without milk and sugar (personally never tried this)
- Teh tarik, the Indian 拉茶
- Teh-halia, tea with ginger water
- Teh-peng, tea with ice, also known as Teh-ais or Teh-ice
- The above list is not complete. You can of course add the "-peng" suffix to form other variations such as Teh-si-peng (tea with evaporated milk with ice). --Vsion 02:51, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
Thanks Vsion. My Hong Kong friends living in Singapore have tried the standard local Teh Si, and in fact asking for Gong Sik Nai Chah (pardon my poor spelling), but found it different enough from the Hong Kong style to ask me to send them some. I'm hoping that somewhere in Singapore there is a place that makes such a tea that tastes like what is found in Hong Kong. Btw, we have found places in Missisauga, Canada that did make tea that tasted like the Hong Kong style. I hope to find such tea in Singapore too. Hkgharry 06:23, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
- Sorry to hear that your friends were disappointed with Teh Si, I would recommend that they try Teh-Si-Peng (ice tea), it is actually more popular considering Singapore's hot weather. Otherwise, the ingredients and preparation seems to be the same as Gong Sik Nai Chah, unless someone can elaborate on that. ... Oh... maybe it's the water, Singapore's kopi tiams may be using recycled water (aka. NEWater) and Hong Kong probably does not. And Mississauga certainly does not use recycle water, Lake Ontario has enough fresh water to drown Singapore many times over. --Vsion 06:57, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
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- lol! I suppose only a fellow-Singaporean will notice the pun there? :D Anyway, I have been asking this amongst my Cantonese friends, and so far, nobody knows of this drink being sold here at all. In contrast, Yuanyang is sold here, and by that name too. Why? Perhaps the simple reaon for that is "HK-style milk tea", whatever that is called, is simply too similar to milk tea sold here to be worth selling under a "different name".--Huaiwei 07:11, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
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- There's also the possibility that HK-style western food (the venues were HK-style tea is typically served) simply isn't that common in Singapore, either. I've seen many things in Singapore labeled as HK-style, but all these were classical Chinese food, like dim sum or Cantonese food. I can't comment on the local tea in Singapore, since the only one I've tried is teh tarik, and that only from vending machines, but I too find myself missing HK food occasionally when living in Singapore. --Yuje 12:24, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
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- In other words, perhaps we need to create a new article called Singapore-style Hong Kong cuisine? :D--Huaiwei 14:10, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
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- Only if you want to make Singaporean-style American cuisine, Singaporean-style British cuisine, Singaporean-style Thai cuisine, Singaporean-style McDonald's food, Singaporean-style Burger King, etc, etc, also. Foreign food is foreign food. The fact that food establishments serving foreign food can be found there doesn't mean it's neccessarily Singaporean-style. --Yuje 15:53, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
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- But we do have Hong Kong-style western cuisine dont we? ;) Jokes aside, your insistance that true HK food cannot be found in Singapore then leaves us wondering if the so-called "HK" food here is actually in a class of its own. And since you mentioned those stuff, yes, there is indeed a a "Singaporean-style western cuisine", and Thai food here is considered different as far as my Thai friends are concerned (then again, who wont find "local" food served overseas unsatisfactory?), and I do believe there is enough material to create an article for "Singaporean-style McDonald's food". Heard of McCrispy? Kampong Burger? Kiasu Burger? Just some examples of burgers created right in MacDonalds Singapore. Heard of the Rendang Burger? Thats Burger King's creation. Do they have this back in the US? Yes...its supposedly "foreign food", but if "localised-foreign food" is worthy of articles like this very article on Milk Tea, than would this not apply to similar trends the world over?--Huaiwei 16:20, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
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- I can only comment on what I've seen. One can hardly walk around without tripping on laksa, Hainanese chicken rice, and sliced fish noodles, and I've seen food stands offering things like "HK-style dim sum", "HK-style seafoood", "HK-style wonton", and so on, (and even one food stand in Kallang offering Kowloonese Hainan chicken rice!). However, I haven't seen HK-style western food around, which gives me the impression that it's not very common in Singapore. (For that matter, I haven't been able to find o-a-jian or xiaolongbao), either.--Yuje 16:46, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
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- If you actually cant find O-Jian or Xiaolongbao in Singapore, than I would really like to know where you have been frequenting when you are here. You can find xiaolongbao even in a food court, and O-Jian is as common as char kuey tiao. In fact, Singaporeans fly to Taipei particularly for the food, as they share many common similarities thanks to the Hokkien influence. Food in Taiwan are often "familiar" to us, yet "different" enough to be worth the trip. Based on those "HK-style XXX" you see here, how "authentic" are they? And I am hardly surprised you cant find "HK-style western food". Just like the milk tea issue, ever wondered if they are worth selling here if they are too similar to "Western food" sold in Singapore?--Huaiwei 17:12, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
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Thanks for the responses. Perhaps the difference noticed by my friends is indeed the water, or some other ingredients. If someone does happen to hear of a place in Singapore that Hong Kongers feel makes tea that tastes the same as the Nai Chah in Hong Kong, appreciate if you could let me know. Take care. Hkgharry 07:23, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Originates from HK
This article has been, many times, asserted that this is the "Hong Kong style milk tea". With the distinct historical and geographical background of Hong Kong, it's practically impossible for other places in the world to come up with a style of milk tea exactly the same as the Hong Kong one.
Another fact is, even the style of "English tea" can change when it's brought from England to Wales, so ditto milk tea in Hong Kong (nomatter where it originally came from). Deryck C. 16:46, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
- I appreciate your efforts, but again, I am asking that theories and assuptions must be backed-up by evidence before being presented as fact. No one able to tell us the "recipie" even, for instance?--Huaiwei 18:45, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
- I showed you the hyperlink to the video clipping of the TV programme at talk:national dish#Dim Sum, but you stop responding. — Instantnood 20:12, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
- Haha ops...actually I dint see that at all. But anyway, I suppose you assume I can understand Cantonese? :D--Huaiwei 13:29, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
- You said that was a TV programme that nobody could name, and that's why I showed you the hyperlink. I've never assumed you can understand the programme. — Instantnood 13:42, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
- Dude, I would strongly advise you to use your brains, if there are still any left. You think anyone would ask for the existance of a evidence just for the sake of it? Assuming this was a court case, you tried to make an accusation that someone is gulty of an crime. When the judge asks you for evidence for your claims, you produce an evidence which the judge cant understand. Can you tell us if this evidence is worth anything then? Seriously, whats your educational level?--Huaiwei 14:08, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
- Cool~ The TV programme was mentioned in the discussion and you assumed that to be a presentation as an evidence. Translation and interpretation is normally available at a court isn't it? A court in a country where there is rule of law has to guarantee fair and equal trial, no matter what language(s) one speaks. :-) — Instantnood 14:26, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
- Hahaha!!!! If you are now saying the talk on the tv programme was not a piece of evidenence, then are you saying there are basically none all these while (since that tv programme seems to be the only attempt in showing some kind of "documented proof")? If there are no evidence, then how does this advance your POV? Seriously, where is your basic logic? Your argumentative skills are certainly suspect, and I do wonder why I am spending this time and energy talking to someone who seems to display the intellectual abilities of a primary school student. And yes, you rightfully mention the existance of TRANSLATION, the very entity which was lacking, and which prompted my question with regards to my comprehension of the Cantonese language. It took you this long to realise it? So, where is your translation service going to come from? And is this translation service going to be trustworthy and free from bias? If you know how a "fair and equal" justice system works, then please jolly well display some understanding of it, and demonstrate this understanding to us! :D--Huaiwei 15:00, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
- There's a piece of evidence from the newest volume of the NEXT Magazine, revealing that the unique type of milk tea does originate from a restaurant in Hong Kong. Obviously it coincides with what Instandnood has said, but due to copyrights I'm not going to scan and upload the pages to here. -- Jerry Crimson Mann 14:40, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
- Hmm...I remember this converstion going this line before, but I did mention some specific things which need to be proven. It is not so much about the fact that this milk tea was conceived somewhere in HK. It has to be shown to be unique, because otherwise, we are going to have conflicting claims to the exact same dish/drink. The lack of uniqueness also suggests the likelihood of external influence which may have proliferated beyond a simple case of "invention in HK and nowhere else, and the extension of this unique drink overseas which dosent conflict with similar drinks elsewhere". I notice this chain of discussion was kindof neglected?--Huaiwei 15:00, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
- You laid a claim that the kind of tea mentioned in the article is also found in Singapore, and nobody recognised that kind of tea sold in Singapore as orginated from Hong Kong. Mind showing any evidence? Thanks in advance. — Instantnood 15:23, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
- Evidence? Actually its more like the lack of it. In all my life living in Singapore, I have never seen "Hong Kong-style milk tea" listed on any menu in any food outlet in Singapore, or at least in all those places I have ever been to. If you would like evidence on whether Singaporeans consider "milk tea" as a HK drink, would you trust a report by me if I where to conduct a survey amongst my friends now?--Huaiwei 15:31, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
- You laid a claim that the kind of tea mentioned in the article is also found in Singapore, and nobody recognised that kind of tea sold in Singapore as orginated from Hong Kong. Mind showing any evidence? Thanks in advance. — Instantnood 15:23, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
- Hmm...I remember this converstion going this line before, but I did mention some specific things which need to be proven. It is not so much about the fact that this milk tea was conceived somewhere in HK. It has to be shown to be unique, because otherwise, we are going to have conflicting claims to the exact same dish/drink. The lack of uniqueness also suggests the likelihood of external influence which may have proliferated beyond a simple case of "invention in HK and nowhere else, and the extension of this unique drink overseas which dosent conflict with similar drinks elsewhere". I notice this chain of discussion was kindof neglected?--Huaiwei 15:00, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
- (response to Huaiwei's comment at 15:00, July 21) Is here a law court? Who's the judge? :-D — Instantnood 15:23, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
- Oooooo! How cute!! *tickles the chin of instantnood*--Huaiwei 15:31, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
- So are you assuming here a law court? Who's the judge? — Instantnood 15:52, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
- Things're going insane... =.= -- Jerry Crimson Mann 16:08, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
- So are you assuming here a law court? Who's the judge? — Instantnood 15:52, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
- Oooooo! How cute!! *tickles the chin of instantnood*--Huaiwei 15:31, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
- There's a piece of evidence from the newest volume of the NEXT Magazine, revealing that the unique type of milk tea does originate from a restaurant in Hong Kong. Obviously it coincides with what Instandnood has said, but due to copyrights I'm not going to scan and upload the pages to here. -- Jerry Crimson Mann 14:40, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
- Hahaha!!!! If you are now saying the talk on the tv programme was not a piece of evidenence, then are you saying there are basically none all these while (since that tv programme seems to be the only attempt in showing some kind of "documented proof")? If there are no evidence, then how does this advance your POV? Seriously, where is your basic logic? Your argumentative skills are certainly suspect, and I do wonder why I am spending this time and energy talking to someone who seems to display the intellectual abilities of a primary school student. And yes, you rightfully mention the existance of TRANSLATION, the very entity which was lacking, and which prompted my question with regards to my comprehension of the Cantonese language. It took you this long to realise it? So, where is your translation service going to come from? And is this translation service going to be trustworthy and free from bias? If you know how a "fair and equal" justice system works, then please jolly well display some understanding of it, and demonstrate this understanding to us! :D--Huaiwei 15:00, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
- Cool~ The TV programme was mentioned in the discussion and you assumed that to be a presentation as an evidence. Translation and interpretation is normally available at a court isn't it? A court in a country where there is rule of law has to guarantee fair and equal trial, no matter what language(s) one speaks. :-) — Instantnood 14:26, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
- Dude, I would strongly advise you to use your brains, if there are still any left. You think anyone would ask for the existance of a evidence just for the sake of it? Assuming this was a court case, you tried to make an accusation that someone is gulty of an crime. When the judge asks you for evidence for your claims, you produce an evidence which the judge cant understand. Can you tell us if this evidence is worth anything then? Seriously, whats your educational level?--Huaiwei 14:08, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
- You said that was a TV programme that nobody could name, and that's why I showed you the hyperlink. I've never assumed you can understand the programme. — Instantnood 13:42, July 21, 2005 (UTC)
- Haha ops...actually I dint see that at all. But anyway, I suppose you assume I can understand Cantonese? :D--Huaiwei 13:29, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
- I showed you the hyperlink to the video clipping of the TV programme at talk:national dish#Dim Sum, but you stop responding. — Instantnood 20:12, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
- I have to say, at this point, one should have at least the courtesy of providing some evidence? Jerry, Instantnood, and myself have already provided several sources, while David has said he's tried both and claimed they're not the same. Also, no other individuals have objected to the wording of the article, either here or on the Chinese Wikipedia.
- At this point, I'd say the burden of evidence on me (the original article writer) has been more than met. Couple this with the complete lack of evidence presented on the part of Huaiwei, the sole objector. Early on, I asked for any contrary evidence, only to be refused and asked to substantiate the claim. I have, and others have, and in fact, I can take photos of resturant menus where it's worded exactly as "Hong Kong-style milk tea" and 港式奶茶. Now, if this Singaporean drink really is identical, mind providing us information on it and its origins? And if you dispute the origins of the HK drink, mind providing an alternate source? I'm not against objections or corrections, but I would like to see some at least some actual source instead of one person's hearsay.
- Also early on, I asked if Huaiwei had any suggestions for an alternate wording on the article. This was also unanswered, and instead this continues. This offer was never retracted. If you think the article is so wrong, then suggest to us how to fix it.
- I really find it strange that a person would object to the existence of Hong Kong-style milk tea when by that person's admission, (s)he has never even seen or tried it before. Looking at the history of edits, it seems that Huaiwei was opposed to Instantnood placing certain Hong Kong entries on National dish, and his opposition to this page is linked with his opposition to milk tea as HK's drink. --Yuje 00:20, July 22, 2005 (UTC)
- (clarified last sentence --Yuje 14:48, July 24, 2005 (UTC))
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- And I find it equally strange, that while peple here get all hot under the collar and suggest that I am opposing to "Instantnood placing Hong Kong entries on National dish", no one seems to notice that I didnt object to Yuanyang (drink) being in that list? Very strange indeed...--Huaiwei 07:26, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
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- I clarified the statement. (See also: Nitpicking) Meanwhile, what about the actual article-related issues I raised? Are you going to address them? Surely that's a better way to improve this article than endless filibustering?--Yuje 14:48, July 24, 2005 (UTC)
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- So here we go again. If, as claimed, HK-style milk tea doesn't exist, then exactly what is everybody in Hong Kong drinking? Did every contributor to the page simply imagine it that they drank it? Huaiwei claims that there is an exact same drink in Singapore, but after six months can't provide a source or even name what this supposed beverage is. Heck, I live in Singapore and I have no idea what beverage he's talking about. Nor has he even cited exactly which facts are supposedly in error. But of course, what else would be the result when when his only motive in objecting is to prevent an "attempt to over-represent specific localities" caused by our subversive and treasonous culinary preferences?--Yuje 15:25, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
I don’t think anyone is saying that this drink doesn’t exist, but rather that maybe it also exists in other parts of the world without it originating from Hong Kong. I reckon most parts of the British Empire in the 19th and early 20th century would have had a similar drink. After all it is merely “English” tea with evaporated milk instead of fresh milk. I would say in many parts of the British Empire the colonial administrative class must have used evaporated or condensed milk for their tea due to the unavailability of fresh milk.
I’m not sure why there are some in HK who seem so eager to claim this drink as a unique example of HK culture and “national” symbol. Both the ingredients are not even traditionally Chinese. The actual tea is of the type drunk in Britain, which is largely grown in India and is very different from the traditional Chinese red and green teas, and cow’s milk, whether fresh or not, is not traditionally part of the Chinese diet. LDHan 20:04, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Lie Cha
The Lie Cha Jerry is referring to is 拉茶. The "lie" is pronounced as in English. Here's what the Chinese wiki has to say about it: 馬來西亞和新加坡有「拉茶」，製作方法與香港奶茶差不多，但中間多一道「拉茶」的工序，是一門很講技巧的手藝。 zh:奶茶 I don't know if that's the Teh Terik. --Yuje 15:30, July 24, 2005 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but you lived in Singapore, and couldnt even tell that Chinese text was refering to Teh tarik or not? What have you been doing in Singapore, I would certainly love to ask?--Huaiwei 16:11, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, I've lived and worked in Singapore before, though not currently. What of it? --Yuje 16:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- I see, so how long did you live and work here, and in which year did that happen?--Huaiwei 20:56, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- I see neither the relevence of such a question to the article, and I certainly have no desire to share personal information on a widely mirrored public webpage. --Yuje 09:38, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- I see, so how long did you live and work here, and in which year did that happen?--Huaiwei 20:56, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, I've lived and worked in Singapore before, though not currently. What of it? --Yuje 16:52, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Definitely not Singaporean
Over a year later, and still not even a whiff of this supposed identical drink that even exists in Singapore, much less its supposed Singaporean origins, and no sources to boot, while on the other hand countless sources can attest to its development and cultural role in Hong Kong. Here's a Straits Times with an actual Singaporean, who says she can't find it in Singapore.
- She says, and I quote, "Milk tea from Hong Kong, which I haven't been able to find in Singapore. It's tea with lots of Carnation milk, and is similar to our teh-si, but theirs is so thick and rich. I can drink a few cups a day.".[7] (emphasis added)
- Here's another interview of a Singaporean, again by the same Singaporean newspaper. "The Hong Kong milk tea, which you can't find in Singapore. They brew it from tea dust and it's very strong, with a lot of evaporated milk." [8]
Ha! "Bold claims over its origin" indeed. We have multiple sources attesting to its Hong Kong origins, no sources of such a drink in Singapore, and Singaporean sources claiming it in fact doesn't exist in Singapore. --Yuje 17:56, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- What a load of bull based on a supposed authority on food, when it is actually an interview with two individuals who are unfortunately not well travelled enough to know where to find HK milk tea in Singapore. In fact, I made a point to order this particular drink from a famous outlet run by Hongkies in the East Coast just a few weeks after that original debate. So you can yell and scream all you like, and search the furthest corners of the web to advance your agendas for all I care, but the fact is I DID drink it right here on Singaporean soil. I dont think you want to know my verdict on that (overpriced) drink.--Huaiwei 11:53, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- Restaurants serving Hong Kong cha chaan teng such as Crystal Jade and Imperial Treasure, sell HK milk tea. Maybe people just cannot find that particular shop, so they say things like that. HK milk tea cannot be found in any kopitiam in Singapore, but at HK establishments in Singapore. Crystal Jade and Imperial Treasure are owned by Hongkongers, I believe the Hongkong bosses want to have their milk tea occasionally at their restaurants. That's a bit lame, but well... It doesn't mean that the drink is not popular in Singapore, then it doesn't exist. Singapore serves HK style high tea as mentioned earlier, and milk tea is part of it, do you think that they will omit such a beverage from their menu? Remember, Stomp are things published by people and posted on the website via SMS, email etc. So DO NOT believe what Stomp says all the time, it's what people say not the journalists themselves. Try searching Google and you will get all sorts of stuff, the internet is not that reliable. If you ever come to Singapore, I recommend you Crystal Jade or Imperial Treasure for tea, they have dim sum and HK style high tea, and you will find milk tea on the menu. --Terence Ong (T | C) 15:17, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- It's fair enough that HK-style resturants in Singapore serve HK-style tea. In the original debate, Huawei was attempting to cast doubt on the fact that this drink was an HK drink at all. You'll notice that he disputed that such a drink was associated with HK at all, or that it was developed in HK, and he in fact spent quite a time attempting to argue that HK-style milk tea didn't exist, by implying that normal milk tea was the exact same thing in Singapore. Only now is he trying to make a face-saving roundabout that it does in fact exist, after attempting to argue that no distinctive HK-style tea existed either in Singapore or elsewhere (and those claims having been shown to be a pack of lies).--Yuje 15:13, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- This charge of an a supposed "about turn" on my part is of course based on a user's inability in reading my comments with a level head, and choosing to go all emotional and defensive and attempting to put all kinds of extreme assumptions in my statements. I challenge you to quote my words which directly reflects what you accused me of saying. Why in the world would I charge that "HK-style milk tea didn't exist", when I could step right out one night and tasted it myself just to decipher this supposed "uniqueness" of milk tea served in HK?
- It's fair enough that HK-style resturants in Singapore serve HK-style tea. In the original debate, Huawei was attempting to cast doubt on the fact that this drink was an HK drink at all. You'll notice that he disputed that such a drink was associated with HK at all, or that it was developed in HK, and he in fact spent quite a time attempting to argue that HK-style milk tea didn't exist, by implying that normal milk tea was the exact same thing in Singapore. Only now is he trying to make a face-saving roundabout that it does in fact exist, after attempting to argue that no distinctive HK-style tea existed either in Singapore or elsewhere (and those claims having been shown to be a pack of lies).--Yuje 15:13, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- Restaurants serving Hong Kong cha chaan teng such as Crystal Jade and Imperial Treasure, sell HK milk tea. Maybe people just cannot find that particular shop, so they say things like that. HK milk tea cannot be found in any kopitiam in Singapore, but at HK establishments in Singapore. Crystal Jade and Imperial Treasure are owned by Hongkongers, I believe the Hongkong bosses want to have their milk tea occasionally at their restaurants. That's a bit lame, but well... It doesn't mean that the drink is not popular in Singapore, then it doesn't exist. Singapore serves HK style high tea as mentioned earlier, and milk tea is part of it, do you think that they will omit such a beverage from their menu? Remember, Stomp are things published by people and posted on the website via SMS, email etc. So DO NOT believe what Stomp says all the time, it's what people say not the journalists themselves. Try searching Google and you will get all sorts of stuff, the internet is not that reliable. If you ever come to Singapore, I recommend you Crystal Jade or Imperial Treasure for tea, they have dim sum and HK style high tea, and you will find milk tea on the menu. --Terence Ong (T | C) 15:17, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
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- Your statement that it is "fair enough that HK-style resturants in Singapore serve HK-style tea" dosent deviate from the fact that you have been soundly proven wrong and demonstrates your skewed manner of online research in attempting to downplay sources which will quite clearly point to the fact that this drink IS sold in Singapore (one simply needs to search "Hong Kong-style milk tea + Singapore" in google to find lots of sources). If you can do such an unethical thing here, you can do this everywhere else. It also goes to show that your loud claims of having "lived in Singapore" hasent really done much justice to your knowledge on this place. You had to use the internet to look for a supposed popular drink which I would expect you to find when you were here, when you jolly well lived here? And made a wrong conclusion at that? My God. So how many more times have you been bluffing the clueless public in every other debate you are involved in? I shudder at the thought.--Huaiwei 16:06, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
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- For the record, these following statements were all made which attempted to downplay the drink's existence. All are quoted from the discussion above:
- "I notice this article made several bold claims over its origin, including how it was created in Hong Kong."
- "Even the so-called HK-styled milk tea can be found in all its complete similarities right here in Singapore (yes, right down to the "silk socks", and no, we simply do not consider it as originating in HK).
- "If we dont use these socks, it is no longer HK-styled milk tea? If anyone uses it, it becomes one? Heck, I suppose we have to tell the Singaporean public that they have been drinking "HK milk tea" all these while, and not just "milk tea"?"
- You mean you came up the with beverage name yourself? No wonder I cant seem to find it in google.
- (Contrast with the more recent) "one simply needs to search "Hong Kong-style milk tea + Singapore" in google to find lots of sources)
- "I would strongly caution against assuming differences in tea served here and in HK"
- "Hence, we can already see there is no distinction in terms of the way it is served, and the way it is brewed"
- "So if the variation served in Singapore is not tt different from the one in HK, then are we talking about the same drink here? BTW, I typed "milk tea Singapore" in google, and I found one page even claiming milk tea is Singapore's national drink!"
- For the record, these following statements were all made which attempted to downplay the drink's existence. All are quoted from the discussion above:
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- The attempts to downplay the existence or distinctiveness of this drink is a matter of public record on the page, as is the attempt to implicate that the drink may actually even have been a Singaporean. Note how the original claims (Singaporeans don't consider the drink to from HK) contrast with the later statements in the paragraph above(the drink can be found in HK-run establishments and is actually called HK milk tea).--Yuje 16:50, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
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- As I have said numerous times, that you see those comments as "downplaying the existence or distinctiveness of this drink" is not a matter of public record, but of personal perception. You read my comments with a siege mentality, and attempted to pre-empt what I was trying to get at. You got it all wrong, however.
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- My comments have never deviated from where I started of. I original comments have all along suggested, that I believe there has been a parallel development of a similar drink involving milk in tea in HK and Singapore (plus Malaysia) given both came under British influence. My stand all along, is that it makes little sense to have an article on a HK-styled Milk Tea, when Milk Tea itself was made as a redirect to this particular drink, implying all milk tea served in the world today are basically a HK-styled concoction, and since that single article insist this tea was invented in HK, then it must be implying that all milk tea in the world were basically originated from HK, isnt it? Hence my original question...wasent it a bold claim that milk tea was invented in HK and no where else?
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- And so I said....if milk tea was indeed the sole invention of HK, then could you explain why they exist in such abundance in Singapore, and yet no one ever thinks of it as a HK drink? You tried to distinctify this drink, but all you could say was the socks....which exists here too anyway. Am I deviating from my argument that milk tea is not the sole invention of HK, and that it cannot lay claim to having invented it?
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- My question "You mean you came up the with beverage name yourself?" was in direct answer to your statement "I called it HK-style to distinguish it from other types of milk tea, such as bubble tea". Whar do you mean by YOU calling it HK-style? You invented the term? And care to explain why there dosent seem to be a standard way of reference to this particular drink (hence my difficulty in finding its name on google, which is still true today. You may be delighted to know that "hong kong-style milk tea" still comes up with a paltry 763 hits in google even if we count the mirrored wikipedia sites).
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- My comment that milk tea exists in Singapore in all abundance is clearly undeniable. I dont go to the point of claiming we invented it, which you did (and you dared claim I had the same intention). That the two versions are nearly similar is also a matter of personal taste, and which I personally felt was similar to the point of being mediocre (some die hard foodies who insists "no hk milk tea exists" are more likely demanding high quality tea which I doubt is served by every store in HK). I certainly isnt the only one who thinks this way, and I implied this by asking why few stores bother to serve both, if any.
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- You enthusiasim in writing misquotes continues to be rampant. My comment that "Singaporeans don't consider the drink to from HK" relates to the milk tea commonly sold all over Singapore. You claimed I said "the drink can be found in HK-run establishments and is actually called HK milk tea". Where did you get this quote from? And even if I supposedly said this, how does this contrast with my first statement, which still rings true? Most common stores around Singapore sell milk tea as teh-si, not hk milk tea. The only places who sell milk tea under the "hk milk tea" name are hk-run or hk-inspired outlets. I tried both, and they tasted almost identical. Mind showing me where the "contrast" is? ;)--Huaiwei 19:57, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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- Sounds like a good idea. I'm content to let the contents of the discussion archive to speak for itself, with regards to future readers of the discussion. --Yuje 09:36, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
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- According to Wikipedia:Verifiability, The burden of evidence lies with the editors who have made an edit or wish an edit to remain. Editors should therefore provide references. If an article topic has no reputable, reliable, third-party sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on that topic. Your "authorisation" for your clone to remove my "edits" clearly applies to all edits in this article as well. I would certainly like to know how many "reputable, reliable, third-party sources" may be available to keep this article alive? If you want to play the role of gangleader, expect to take responsbility for any repuccussions this may have on all affected parties concerned.--Huaiwei 19:57, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- Don't you think what you've said on this page over the 16 months are in conflict? You simply deny what you'd said. — Instantnood 20:28, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- So what have I denied? Show me. And so what if what I said faced 16 months of conflict, when I was adhering to wikipolicies while you and your cronies are not?--Huaiwei 20:55, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- Don't you think what you've said on this page over the 16 months are in conflict? You simply deny what you'd said. — Instantnood 20:28, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- According to Wikipedia:Verifiability, The burden of evidence lies with the editors who have made an edit or wish an edit to remain. Editors should therefore provide references. If an article topic has no reputable, reliable, third-party sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on that topic. Your "authorisation" for your clone to remove my "edits" clearly applies to all edits in this article as well. I would certainly like to know how many "reputable, reliable, third-party sources" may be available to keep this article alive? If you want to play the role of gangleader, expect to take responsbility for any repuccussions this may have on all affected parties concerned.--Huaiwei 19:57, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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- Out of all the discussions here, ONLY ONE person (Huaiwei) kept on saying that there was NO such thing as HK style milk tea (e.g. post above at 15:31, 21 July 2005) claiming "I have never seen Hong Kong-style milk tea", yet the SAME person then said there IS such a thing as HK style milk tea (e.g. post above at 11:53, 19 October 2006) and in fact "I made a point to order this particular drink". -- David Chung 11:31, 26 January 2007 (UTC) (Sydney, Australia)
- That's becayse you have comprehension issues. Mind quoting any of my comments which states that the milk tea served in HK dosent exist?--Huaiwei 13:44, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
- Are you blind? That's EXACTLY what I did. You stuffed up, so what? Everyone makes mistakes. Admit it like a man. Don't try to confuse the issue by just throwing up silly questions. You are using a wiki remember? Everything is ON RECORD, the more you try to defend your hopeless position, the more stupid you look. -- David Chung 12:10, 29 January 2007 (UTC) (Sydney, Australia)
- I am blind to your lame insults, because the fact is you have basic English comprehension issues. If you bother to read the entire conversation above, it is plain clear I was not disputing the fact that milk tea is served in HK. Rather, I dispute the name of this article, and I dispute the originality of this version of milk tea to warrant its own page. Now, do you have the balls to admit you are just plain lazy and hopelessly emotionally-charged?--Huaiwei 12:25, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
- OK, this is an improvement, you are not wasting people's time by asking them to quote this and quote that anymore. Now about these so called "disputes" of yours, EVERYONE (including you, yes you) agreed on BOTH Hong Kong-style milk tea's name and originality, just look at what YOU typed at 11:53, 19 October 2006 (UTC) ... "I made a point to order this particular drink from a famous outlet run by Hongkies in the East Coast" ... You ordered it, drank it and paid for it. The drink might be "overpriced" to you, but it was "priceless" to us, it showed that you know exactly what to order (the correct "name") and where to get it (the correct "origin"). -- David Chung 21:42, 29 January 2007 (UTC) (Sydney, Australia)
- Now thats funny. Since when did an anon become so involved in this discussion? ;) I dont have to ask for quotes in this case, cause you just misquoted me. Duh. Again, I wonder if you have basic comprehension issues when you could make those deductions from my statements. "Origin" as in the point-of-sale, and "name" as in any possible name to refer to this drink?? I am sorry, but I arent gonna spend too much time talking to such characters. Get a life and grow up instead of jumping at the slightest sign of an "attack" on your deep heritage and all things you hold dear.--Huaiwei 23:00, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
- (response to user:60.242.113.149's comment at 12:18, January 29 ) He's not blind. Just that there may perhaps be some minor problems with his nose and tongue, that he's not able to distinguish the subtle differences among different (milk) teas. — Instantnood 17:49, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
- OK, this is an improvement, you are not wasting people's time by asking them to quote this and quote that anymore. Now about these so called "disputes" of yours, EVERYONE (including you, yes you) agreed on BOTH Hong Kong-style milk tea's name and originality, just look at what YOU typed at 11:53, 19 October 2006 (UTC) ... "I made a point to order this particular drink from a famous outlet run by Hongkies in the East Coast" ... You ordered it, drank it and paid for it. The drink might be "overpriced" to you, but it was "priceless" to us, it showed that you know exactly what to order (the correct "name") and where to get it (the correct "origin"). -- David Chung 21:42, 29 January 2007 (UTC) (Sydney, Australia)
- I am blind to your lame insults, because the fact is you have basic English comprehension issues. If you bother to read the entire conversation above, it is plain clear I was not disputing the fact that milk tea is served in HK. Rather, I dispute the name of this article, and I dispute the originality of this version of milk tea to warrant its own page. Now, do you have the balls to admit you are just plain lazy and hopelessly emotionally-charged?--Huaiwei 12:25, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
- Are you blind? That's EXACTLY what I did. You stuffed up, so what? Everyone makes mistakes. Admit it like a man. Don't try to confuse the issue by just throwing up silly questions. You are using a wiki remember? Everything is ON RECORD, the more you try to defend your hopeless position, the more stupid you look. -- David Chung 12:10, 29 January 2007 (UTC) (Sydney, Australia)
- That's becayse you have comprehension issues. Mind quoting any of my comments which states that the milk tea served in HK dosent exist?--Huaiwei 13:44, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
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- * You typed at 11:53, 19 October 2006 (UTC) ... "I made a point to order this particular drink from a famous outlet run by Hongkies in the East Coast" ...
* If the origin of Hong Kong-style milk tea is not Hong Kong, why on earth did you go to a Hong Kong outlet to drink it?
* If the name is not "Hong Kong-style milk tea", how did you order it ? You told the waiter to give you "a particular drink"?
* As I said before "the more you try to defend your hopeless position, the more stupid you look"
-- David Chung 10:41, 30 January 2007 (UTC) (Sydney, Australia)- Because my basic argument is that "Hong Kong milk tea" isnt that different from milk tea served in Singapore and Malaysia to warrant its own article. So how is milk tea supposed to "originate" from HK when the same drink can be found elsewhere, yet without any reference to HK? And yes indeed, the milk tea which was listed in the menu wasent called "Hong Kong-style milk tea", which again supports my original contention that this article is not appropriately named. If you cant even grasp my basic arguments, why I am disputing the text in this article which actually claimed "milk tea originated in HK", and why I am disputing the name of this article, then just who is the one who's looking stupid here despite endless explainations and a full bunch of text above for you to refer to? Just How much more of my time do you intend to waste, if you have nothing sensible to say?--Huaiwei 16:47, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
- * You typed at 11:53, 19 October 2006 (UTC) ... "I made a point to order this particular drink from a famous outlet run by Hongkies in the East Coast" ...
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- Well this drink is common in hong kong style Cha Chan Teng in Box Hill, Melbourne CBD, Fitzroy etc where chinese frequent. Enlil Ninlil 02:16, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- Again quoting the Singaporean newspaper Straits Times's interviews of Singaporeans:
- "Milk tea from Hong Kong, which I haven't been able to find in Singapore. It's tea with lots of Carnation milk, and is similar to our teh-si, but theirs is so thick and rich. I can drink a few cups a day.".[9] (emphasis added)
- Another interview of a Singaporean who enjoys "The Hong Kong milk tea, which you can't find in Singapore. They brew it from tea dust and it's very strong, with a lot of evaporated milk." This being a person who frequents Singapore's "old coffee shops, many of which, sadly, are already torn down."[10]
- Other Singaporeans on this page has said it can be found, but only at Hong Kong-style diners. Interviewed guys have said they can't find it at kopitiams. So where is this mythical exact same milk tea found in Singapore and Malaysia "can be found elsewhere, yet without any reference to HK"? I still notice no justification or source after two years of asking (see dates at top of discussion). --Yuje 17:53, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
- I believe I have already responded to both points raised by you in preceeding entries, and I do not think it neccesary to repeat those points in "parrotic" response.--Huaiwei 17:59, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
- Meanwhile, let me just point out that the sources you cite actually said they cant find the drink "in Singapore", which any logical person would assume to include any possible outlet, which is, quite unfortunately, not the case as proven by my own experience and that of other wikipedians who are at least much more familiar with the local culinary scene then those sad interviewees. Also, from where did you deduce that there is a "mythical drink found in Singapore and Malaysia that can be found elsewhere, yet without any reference to HK" for it to be worth questioning now?--Huaiwei 18:06, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
- Quoted from you. You're the one who says such a drink exists in Singapore and Malaysia, without reference to HK, yet all those who found the drink (including you, later on) have done so at HK-style diners, and Singaporeans frequenting kopitiams can't find it. Since you claim so, surely you can tell us where?--Yuje 18:11, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
- Since you have a nice habit of misquoting anyone (including even from the above sources you cite), kindly find me the exact quote which states the above. Do not simply find quotes from different parts of the conversation and assume they are all talking about the same thing, and twist statements to fit your agenda. There is a marked difference between discussing the fact that the milk tea served in Singapore's kopitiams usually have no reference to HK, the fact that there does exist outlets (usually HK-themed restaurants or those specialising in Cantonese cuisine) who claim they sell "HK Milk tea" by any name they could think of, and the fact that not all consumers could differentiate between the two, with some even considering it a mere passing fad [11]. These do not contradict each other. Rather, they point to the same conclusion, that the milk tea served in HK is basically the same as the one served in Singapore/Malaysia/just about most Chinese communities on Earth who bother to pour milk into their tea.--Huaiwei 18:28, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
- Huawei, you kept on making statements that are AGAINST yourself! Which side are you on? Yours or ours?
* The reference your quoted [12] points to other people agreeing that there IS SUCH A THING as Hong Kong-style milk tea that is unique.
* If there is no difference to other tea, then why did YOU say "milk tea served in HK is basically the same as the one served in Singapore", why not say it is the SAME? What in your opinion is the difference?
* If there is no difference to other tea, why did YOU have to "made a point to order this particular drink from a famous outlet run by Hongkies in the East Coast", why can't you order from any where else?
* Looks like to EVERYONE on earth (including you) there IS a difference ... you are just trying to save face by talking around in circles - wasting everyone's time (including yours).
-- David Chung 11:22, 1 February 2007 (UTC) (Sydney, Australia)- Laughable indeed. My points have been dead consistent, and have been flashed out countless times. Yet, I have a jumpy, insecure teen attempting to break my statements down, misinterpret them, use them against me, and attempt to "publicly shame" me for "talking in circles" and attempting to "save face". Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. I am sorry, Mr Chung, but the so-called "Chinese diaspora" across the world dosent neccesary think the same way. Your face may be more important to you, but I simply could not care less about mine, and I will not hesitate to give you a virtual slap on the face if I have to. You can save your face for your mum's kisses, if need be. But if you are attempting to silence me by "shaming me in public", than I can assure you that it will be a futile attempt.
- I did say the milk tea served in HK is basically the same as in Singapore. This has consistently been my point of view. And me "making it a point to order this particular drink from a famous outlet run by Hongkies in the East Coast", is a true-life illustration of my attempts to investigate the so-called "uniqueness" of this tea as marketed by the money-milking machine attempting to mine every penny out of clueless patrons. I did indicate there are shops marketing this drink as "HK milk tea" or whatever they call it, and I do acknowledge there are individuals who think this distinction exists, but I also did show sources indicating counter opinions who say this tea is actually nothing more than a hyped-up concoction no different from the 60cents milk tea one can buy from the coffeeshop downstairs all over Singapore. Hardly surprises me that you chose to ignore these comments. Not only are you good in talking circles, you are also an excellent candidate in selective reading skills.
- I do not have much patience discussing with provincial individuals who talk about "taking sides" in content disputes. If this is an argument not on facts, but on whether your ego is bigger than mine, whether you feel more passionately about your territory and its cultural icons than everyone else, and if all you are interested in is to find non-existant loopholes in my statements and have nothing factual to contribute to this discussion, than perhaps you are better off spending time sipping your milk tea and quit wasting precious time.--Huaiwei 14:34, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
- These are the problems with your so called "investigation":
* You drank ONE cup of Hong Kong-style milk tea in ONE Hong Kong cafe in ONE country (Singapore) ... it tasted NO different to other tea in YOUR opinion ... so ALL Hong Kong-style milk tea in ALL Hong Kong cafe ALL around the world MUST NOT taste any different to EVERYONE on earth ?
* Now comes the even more ridicious part, you have been PUBLICLY AND STRONGLY stating that there is no difference BEFORE (yes, before) your investigation. Let's see, you had NOT tasted it back then, yet you claimed they are different, based on what ?
* You are trying to prevent entry into Wikipedia a drink (Hong Kong style milk tea) that is being known to a large number of people AND organisations, that is actively sold AND consumed daily around the world (something that you ordered, you drank and you paid for during your investigation)
* Using your silly logic, the latte (coffee) I had this morning tasted NO different to flat-whites (coffee) to me, so should I go and delete latte from wikipedia ?
I look forward to your replies to ALL of the above questions
-- David Chung 03:47, 4 February 2007 (UTC) (Sydney, Australia)- So now I am talking to a screeching chinaman from down under. Sure, I am fully aware that I drunk one drink, and it tasted similar. Now so what if the that one drink tasted different from another "similar" drink sold somewhere else on the other side of the planet? Plenty of food and drinks taste different place to place, often times even between branches of a single restaurant chain. Are you going to write a wikiarticle on every single "different tasting" food item there is? I dont claim my personal experience was scientific (and in fact, personal experiences dont count as valid sources in wikipedia), while you get all hot and bothered thinking I was doing so.
- I stated my opinion that the drinks are similar, because constant requests for anyone to come up with evidence to proof its uniqueness, down to a request for recipes even, turned up nothing. Yes nothing, and certainly not from you. If no one can show just why milk tea in HK is different from milk tea sold around the world, then it cannot claim to be "orignated from HK", let alone attempts by some to call it the "national drink of HK". Full stop. My personal experience isnt required to remove it. ;)
- So what if "millions" of people and organisation drink it, when my original contention was with the phrase "milk tea originates from HK", and my stand that the article Milk tea should be expanded to talk about milk tea sold the world over, as contrary to it being a redirect to this article [13]. HK dosent own milk tea, and milk tea dosent originate in HK. Period. So dont you think you are barking up the wrong tree with your emotive outbursts, thinking I am out to erase all mention about milk tea served in HK? Your sense of insecurity is becoming quite cronic.
- Simply put, no. As already explained above, we dont create articles based on taste. We create articles based on accepted notions of seperate dishes, drinks, etc, and usually lump together items which are deemed too similar to warrant their own articles. Laksa, Hokkien mee, Satay, Hainanese chicken rice, etc, despite being markedly different when sold in different places or via different cooking styles, still has most of its contents in one article. So just whats so special about milk tea which tastes richer and more creamy to have its own article?
- Now I await your answers to the above.--Huaiwei 06:38, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
- These are the problems with your so called "investigation":
- Huawei, you kept on making statements that are AGAINST yourself! Which side are you on? Yours or ours?
- Since you have a nice habit of misquoting anyone (including even from the above sources you cite), kindly find me the exact quote which states the above. Do not simply find quotes from different parts of the conversation and assume they are all talking about the same thing, and twist statements to fit your agenda. There is a marked difference between discussing the fact that the milk tea served in Singapore's kopitiams usually have no reference to HK, the fact that there does exist outlets (usually HK-themed restaurants or those specialising in Cantonese cuisine) who claim they sell "HK Milk tea" by any name they could think of, and the fact that not all consumers could differentiate between the two, with some even considering it a mere passing fad [11]. These do not contradict each other. Rather, they point to the same conclusion, that the milk tea served in HK is basically the same as the one served in Singapore/Malaysia/just about most Chinese communities on Earth who bother to pour milk into their tea.--Huaiwei 18:28, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
- Quoted from you. You're the one who says such a drink exists in Singapore and Malaysia, without reference to HK, yet all those who found the drink (including you, later on) have done so at HK-style diners, and Singaporeans frequenting kopitiams can't find it. Since you claim so, surely you can tell us where?--Yuje 18:11, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] No sources referenced
I've added a unreferenced tag as the article takes information from http://www.ibiblio.org/chineseculture/contents/food/p-food-c03s04.html or a common source, but it is not referenced. There may be other sources as well.
If I had time, I'd track down the sources myself; I'll leave the contributors to add the references.
LQ (talk) 02:35, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Hong Kong tea culture stamp - Hong Kong milk tea.jpg
Image:Hong Kong tea culture stamp - Hong Kong milk tea.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot (talk) 23:33, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
