Talk:Honduras

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[edit] Crime in Honduras

I find it odd that Mexico has an article on Crime, yet there is a lack there of for Honduras. I added a little crime blurb in the trivia, but I do think it is important to expand on the subject. Here is an acknowledged source for one to use in creating a section on crime (if desired), http://www.usaid.gov/locations/latin_america_caribbean/democracy/gangs_assessment.pdf . Let me know what you guys think. David -- (13:01) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikihonduras (talk • contribs) 18:05, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Demography

Race is not an issue in Honduras, blacks, whites, mestizo, and many others share the same country without the hatred you can find in other regions of the world. I disagree. Please can you give a source for this claim. Unfortunately my experience is that there is rascism, both towards white foreigners and towards black people, albeit from a small minority, SqueakBox June 28, 2005 18:02 (UTC)

Yes--That appears to be a rediculous claim to make.

Racism is different in every country. Quite often honduran people like to state the there is no racismo, because 1) Slavery was abolished shortly after independence 2) There was never a "modern" slavery state like it was in the US South and Brazil 3) Segregation was never a government policy like in US South and SOuth Africa. Nonetheless Racism exists and is more open than in many of the countries were segregation or apartheid existed. Very recently (2006) a congressman issue a statement to the media that "he hated black people". In the US this would have caused the congressman to resign. In Honduras was received part seriously, part as joke. Enough is to say that the congressman it's still a congressman.

Racism is not quite that big an issue in the country. I state this from my personal expirience being myself a Honduran national. Some people due hate US citizens due to some issues or ignorance, yet the hate is not manifestes directly or is minimal, and it has not gone over to commit hate actions. When it comes to black racism it is not that pronounced given the fact that Garifunas (the only blacks in Honduras) are part of the Honduran cultural history and uniqueness of the country. Nationals call Graifunas "primos" meaning cousins and may be taken as a compliment to a vast majority. Sometimes this may be taken as insulting, so it is not recomended to any tourist. Some Hondurans tend to practice racism toward blacks not because they were taught by their friends or family, but because they learned it from the media or tourists. Mestizo racism is null since 95% of the people is mestizo (no point to discriminate against each other) 72.200.29.102valdez007

To say a mainly mestizo country doesn't have racism is plain naive. black population has been and continues to be discriminated. "Black" jokes are common and can be expressed openly without fear. Honduras don't lynch their black population, but they do apply other kinds of racism. Once asked I heard a parent say that his biggest fear was that her daughter married a "black" person. Mestizo gets discriminated too. The population of palestininan descent calls them "indios" and very seldomly unites with them in marriage, usually under severe criticsm from the rest of the "turcos" community. It would be interesting to see how many (non-us citizen) blacks are enrolled at this moment in the American School and the Escuela Internacional Sampedrana (EIS) 192.193.216.152 14:43, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Its true no place of the earth is 100% free of racism, but in comparrison to other places Honduras is racism free or if there is it is very minimal. Now that you mention Escuela Internacional Sampedrana (EIS) and the Americana School, they are not racist. I tell you this because I graduated from EIS and there were some blacks enrolled. They were not discriminated and they were admitted and enrolled without any prejudices. So the fact of you saying these instituitions are racists is a bogus fact. When it comes to the turks in the country, they have always discriminated the nationals and still tend to do that. Some of them however have started to act more national and have left racism against the nationals. Still, some hondurans have a hard time forgetting about injustices and there can still be found some antagonism. Still, like I said all this racism fight is very minimal in comparrison to other places.Valdez007 19:34, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

If there is no racism in Honduras then I find it fairly puzzling that this article didn't mention any of the indigenous groups of Honduras before I wrote them in. And it is also quite puzzling in the light of the fact that Honduran indigenous peoples are so marginalized and that they find it necessary to organise just i order to secure their fundamental human rights and land rights. Honduras is not a country known for its appreciation of ethnic minorities and indigenous peoples. Just because there is not racism between blacks and whites that doesn't mean that there is no racism. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 19:46, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I read an interesting article a few months ago (I'll try to post a link later) where people in the US were polled asking them basically if they were racist (Large majority said NO) Second question was if they felt others were racist or they have been subject to racism (A large majority said YES) The contradicting results showed that racism is not seen as such by the people who commit it and can be expressed in many ways. Recommend to see the Crash (2004 film), it makes an interesting about other forms of racism, beside the "usual" ones, showing that people who swore were not racist, they in fact were. Is there any racism in Honduras? No doubt there is. Is it higher or lower when compared to other countries? I don't know the answer of that. But at least in comparison to the US, do we all think that if Senator Clinton would have expressed "she hated blacks" or that "she hated native americans" she would still be in office? Wikihonduras 21:24, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't defend the statement made by our congressman. I saw the news when he made the statement and I was disgusted at his statement. Eventhough we don't know if we are racists, the issue revolving on racism in Honduras can be throughly debated. As a Honduran national the view of racism toward the indigenous people can be debated in two main views. Any honduran teacher, some hondurans, even me, would argue that indigenous groups are not discriminated but ignored. Likewise any foreingers might say it is not ignorance of them, but hondurans are discriminating them. Any one could argue any of these points for so long and still come up with no answer to the question "Is there racism in Honduras?" What I'm trying to say is that racism is not actively expressed in the country, although I am not affirming there is no racism.Valdez007 00:04, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New map?

We had an edit war over whether it should be Kelisi or Cantus' maps that should be here. Look at them both and bring your vote here. --SqueakBox 01:50, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

Map of Honduras

Map of Honduras showing departments

[edit] Wikipedia:Caribbean Wikipedians' notice board

I would like to announce the establishment of the Wikipedia:Caribbean Wikipedians' notice board. Anyone with an interest in the Caribbean is welcome to join in. chicken Guettarda 1 July 2005 04:05 (UTC)

[edit] Politics

This seems very un-objectively written - I think less judgemental language should be used.

Unfortunately, Honduran politics are plagued with over-marketed political campaigns, unclear political positions, lack of measurable goals, and a lack of understanding from a majority of the population on the importance of democracy and the election process. In 2004, Honduran democracy made a quantum leap towards a more democractic society when separate ballots were used for mayors, congress, and president. Many more candidates were registered for 2005's election, and people had more chances to elect their local government. Even though many resources were invested providing an improved democratic process, we've seen this effort vanished when politicians scratched the names of already elected individuals to nominate their own who were not freely elected.

I just added a section NPOV template because of the above, and then saw that it was already mentioned on this talk page. I'm not qualified, but I hope someone will help fix this soon. -brbigam

[edit] United Provinces of Central America

I don't understand why the date of indpendence in all Central American countries is 15 september, 1821. In reality, all Central America became part of the Mexican Empire, and it wasn't until this empire was dissolved in 1822-1823 that Central America decided to become an independent country, called United Provinces of Central America. In fact, Chiapas, originally part of Central America, decided to remain as a Mexican state by referendum. --J.Alonso 03:40, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

The reason is because that is the date of independence from Europe and Spain. From that point on they were Latin Americans ruling Latin Americans, SqueakBox 03:43, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Then wouldn't the idependence of Panama be the same as the one from Colombia? After all Panama was a province of Colombia, freed from the Spaniards and ruled by "latins" . The importance of September 15 is that adhesion to the Mexican empire was voluntary, so when Iturbide fell, Central America chose to separate from Mexico Wikihonduras Feb 18 2007

Sensible Chiapas! No question Sep 15 is celebratede as the day Honduras gained independence from Spain, SqueakBox 21:41, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I quote "The reason is because that is the date of independence from Europe and Spain. From that point on they were Latin Americans ruling Latin Americans, SqueakBox 03:43, 22 September 2005 (UTC)". That being quoted I now add that Panama was freed not by Panamanians alone, but also by the efforts of the United States trying to construct the Canal through Panama. Centraamericans although they became part of Mexico the true liberating date from slavery and oppression was when they became independent from Spain and not from a weak Mexico.Valdez007

[edit] History

The history section of this article seems to jump around from topic to topic and it does not seem to flow very well. --Jorobeq 00:50, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

agreed.

anyone know where the sentence about the xukpi kingdom comes from? I've been working on the archaeology in Honduras for 26 years and never heard this. I'd like to see a source, please. Also, this section is full of sentence fragments.

The History of Honduras is documented basically in books found in the libraries of Honduras. There is VERY little digital information of Honduran history, besides the one found in Encarta. The only way to fill in the history of Honduras is to find a honduran history book, read it, and post its important and relevant information. I myself being Honduran can barely remember anything of the history for it's too much to rememberValdez007 04:52, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. There are no good web pages or other digital sources other than primary sources, for the history of Honduras. Even in book form, most of the written history concentrates on the period from 1821 to the present, with very few works covering the colonial period in any kind of detail. I like the Documentos Para la Historia de Honduras: Selección y Notas de Roberto Sosa series (3 volumes to date, published by Imagen y Palabra in Tegucigalpa). Rsheptak 00:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I studied the History of Honduras from a book called "Evolucion Historica de Honduras" which does detail informationa about precolombian Honduras, or in other words, about Honduras before Columbus came. Unfortunately I'm not in the country and don't have the book on hand at the moment, but will gladly post as soon as I get the book back.Valdez007 04:15, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd be interested in seeing that book when/if you can post the reference. Its not one I know. Rodolfo Pastor Fasquelle's book, Biografia de San Pedro, also has a section on the prehistory of Honduras. I've been working on a draft for a wikipedia article on the prehistory, but its low priority right now. Maybe over the summer. Look at issues of Yaxkin, the Instituto Hondureño de Antropologia e Historia's journal, if you want some insight into the prehistory, especially if you're interested in places other than Copan. Rsheptak 16:25, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I've heard about the Yaxtin publications. Indeed, they are the most complete source for Honduran history. They were published around the 1950s-60s. I did use them in a school project, yet their current usage is forbiden outside the library of the museum. The only way to extract informaion from those publications is to go to the museum of Antropologia e Historia in San Pedro Sula and get photocopies of them. Other than that, I can't really suggest any other good source.Valdez007 18:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Yaxkin is still published today by the Insitute and full of articles on the History and Archaeology of Honduras. Check out the Instituto Hondureño de Antropología e Historia website at http://www.ihah.hn. The Museo in SPS sometimes has copies for sale in its gift shop in addition to having copies in its library. Before the Museo, Fransen's grocery store, and a couple of the tourist shops in SPS used to sell it as well. It was the book you referenced, the "Evolucion Historica de Honduras" that I don't know and would love more information about. Thanks. Rsheptak 23:01, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

No problem on quoting the book. Though I didn't know the Yaxtin magazines were back on publication. That is very good news for the countries education. I'll try to get the "Evolucion Historica" book to me ASAP to draft the history, to help people I will create a discussion to the newly added section when its added of coarse.Valdez007 01:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dog fighting

I have heard that Dog fighting is legal in Honduras, can someone here confirm or deny this and if you have some webpages that support your statement I would be obliged. I will use in them to update the Dog fighting article. Thank you SirIsaacBrock 18:50, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Dog fights are illegal in Honduras. Only cock fights are legal, and those are being debated on being considered illegal. I'm Honduran national, best source of information for your inquiry.Valdez007 02:05, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tourism/Ecotourism in Honduras

      Every time I try to put this in any search engine it always

brings me to vacation and traveling websites. I need the facts, not the traveling information. Could someone find a good link for Tourism/Ecotourism in countries? Stuff about the percent of GDP it is and how many people relatively go...? Factual info please. I need lots of info... this

[edit] Where did the name come from?

I have always wanted to know the origin on the countries name, Honduras.

Hondo means deep in Spanish and apparently Columbus described the waters off Trujillo as being "muy hondo", ie they were deep waters. I was just thinking about the name the other day and what a beautiful name it is, and of course pronounced very differently in Spanish where the H is silent. Ras Billy I 14:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

The name "Honduras" is attributed to the Christopher Columbus expressing his thanks to God for having survived a storm of the coast of that country, he said "Gracias a Dios que hemos salido de estas 'honduras'" [depths or abyss]. So the name of the area where the Rio Coco comes to the ocean is now "Gracias a Dios" and the name of the country is "Honduras."

Do we have a reliable source for the above information? It really seems like it should be mentioned in the History section, or possibly even parenthetically in the introduction. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 04:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

The original name, in the colonial period, of the territory that today is Honduras was "honduras y higueras" Higueras comes from the name of a tree known as Higueras or Jicara which has a gourd-like fruit (used to make maracas, food bowls, carved, etc) that was quite common in the country. I've certainly heard the quote attributed to Columbus (attributed because the originals of all his ships logs are lost, and all the records we have are from other people who say they are sumarizing what was in his logs) as the origin.

The articles references Honduras as previously known as "Spanish Honduras". I haven't been able to find references to this name. Can this reference be posted? Wikihonduras Feb 17 2007

Try Googling, eg[1], it was called Spanish Honduras in English when Belize was called British Honduras in order to distingiuish the 2 countries. For example [2] and [3], also see Belize, SqueakBox 18:35, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Although British Honduras references were found in Charts, Publications and other, all what google shows when searching Spanish Honduras is a link to this 19th century obscure novel which makes use of "Spanish Honduras" in its title and some small article written in "aboututila.com" which references some archaeological findings. I went through those articles, but I think that the links provided fail to show an instance where Honduras was ever known as Spanish Honduras . Are there any Maps or Chart from the era, or more serious publications that made use of the term? Wikihonduras

I dont agree, I have shown other references and not just the book, though that is one source. What you appear not to understand is it was Spanish Honduras in English until Belize was independent because Belize was called British Honduras, and I believe I have sourced this satisfactorily given this is wikipedia in English, SqueakBox 21:34, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

See British Honduras which is an article in itself I will now link in the opening, SqueakBox 00:23, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks SqueakBox. I think it has greatly enhanced the article. Only modification I would like to suggest is in the Honduras page is to remove the qualifier "until recently it was know as Spanish Honduras". While researching this, only references to Honduras as Spanish honduras was in books of the 19th and very early 20th century. For example in collection search of the Library of Congress only one volume out of 100MM+ has in its title the term "Spanish Honduras". Didn't find much recently. Wikihonduras 14:56, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

That is fine, SqueakBox 16:15, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Wikihonduras, I do see Spanish Honduras all the time in 19th century sources such as E.G. Squire, newspapers, magazines, and through the Library of Congress, you only searched book titles. Remember Google will only teach you about modern usage, not historical usage. As far as I can tell, the usage arose because of the british colonly across the gulf of Honduras, the land today we call Belize, that was known throughout the 19th and most of the 20th C. as British Honduras (Belize only in 1973). In English, Spanish Honduras was used primarily to disambiguate it from British Honduras, especially in the context of travel. I have seen it most recently (in the last 5 years) in wood catalogs (eg, Spanish Honduran Mahogany) and Cigars. I would hope that the one title you found was "A Lady's Ride across Spanish Honduras"(1884) by Maria Soltera, re-issued by the University of Florida Press in 1964! "Spanish Honduras" was current in the archaeological literature into the 1930's at least.

Never-the-less, I did revise the sentence.Rsheptak 21:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I know personal experience isnt important here but as a child in the sixties and early seventies it was definitely still known as Spanish Honduras (as there were 2 Honduras's) in the UK and that is what I grew up knowing it as, SqueakBox 22:07, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

No,personal experience is relevant when it comes to usage questions. See the discussion about what to call Hondurans (eg. "hondureño" versus "hondurenian") below. There may be a "correct" usage, but it doesn't mean every practitioner is orthodox in their usage. Rsheptak 22:14, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Time Zone

Somebody reverted the correct information that Hondiras is currently in the time zone UTC-5. Honduras is right now at UTC-5, please dont insert incorrect information into this article without checking first as such inaccuracies weaken the wikipedia. Ras Billy I 05:49, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I live in Honduras and we've never used DST oficially. No country in Central America does (except maybe Panamá). It is true that we've used DST in recent years, but only by a special decree from the government. The purpose of this was to study the possibility that we could benefit from DST—even if was only a little bit— given the crisis caused by the rise in oil prices at the time (2004-2006). This year, after some controversy, the measure was not implemented.

~~ LeAd DiAg 08:33, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hondurans

The term "Honduranian" does not exist. The correct term is Honduran. Dianahdez 6 July 2006

Not true. This term is used extensively by Honduranian people. To claim as you do is a cultural imposition. El Rojo 21:38, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about, I have never heard ANY Honduran say the word Honduranian in English or in Spanish. I'm Honduran, believe me, no one says that. Jorobeq 01:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Believe me in Honduras people do say it. I have heard the term too often to be confused on this one. Accordingh to info in your user page I have spent considerably more time in Honduras than your good self, maybe it is a North coast thing but it is a real term really used. El Rojo 01:32, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of the time I have spent there, I have been surrounded by people who were born and raised in San Pedro Sula.Jorobeq 01:41, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

A Google search shows it to be an unusual but definitely existent term. The people who I have heard use it all obviously speak English and do so because they have spent considerable time in the US but are equally clearly Hondurans. Curious, its clearly a translation of the word Hondureňo. All the Google searches that use the word come form the North Coast, making me think it is particular to this coastal region and perhaps hasn't really spread as far as San Pedro. El Rojo 01:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Very possibleJorobeq 02:08, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe the term "Hondurenian" is used extensively by the Honduran people themselves. Its certainly not in my 27 years experience in the country in and around San Pedro Sula. I've only ever heard the term from north americans. I'm not saying it doesn't happen; I'm saying its rare. Rsheptak 00:38, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I definitely doubt that a person from Honduras would call himself or herself anything but "hondureño". I have heard AMericans called people from Honduras "hondurian" "honduranian" or "honduran". The fact the any of these words is often used doesn't make it correct, just makes a widely used incorrect term. Ask any body that speaks spanish, how do you call someone from Jamaica? In english, it will be very difficult the get an answer different than "Jamaican". Don't be surprised to hear answers like "Jamaicano", "Jamaiqueño", "Jamaiquino" and even "Jamaiquense". Again the fact that any of this terms could be used very often, doesn't make them correct. User:WikiHonduras 14 February 2007

Honduranian is a term used by English speaking Hondurans on the north coast, SqueakBox 21:43, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

The term "Hondurinian" does not exist. The only denominations known are "Catracho", which is complimentary and not derrogative and Honduran.Valdez007 02:03, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

In my experience, outside of Honduras we refer to people from honduras as hondurenos(with a tilde on the n) and hondurans refer to themselves as catrachos, but not all hondurans say that

[edit] History - Soccer War

"El Salvador met Honduras for a 3-round football elimination match as a preliminary to the World Cup. Honduras won in the game taking place in San Salvador. It lasted approximately 100 hours and led to an arms race between the two countries." This is unclear and incorrect. According to other sources including Wikipedia's own article on "Soccer War", El Salvador won the game in El Salvador 3-0 and went on to win the third game in Mexico City. Also, instead of saying "It lasted...", the sentence should read "The war lasted...". This sounds better since it doesn't make it seem like the soccer game lasted 100 hours.

Its callaed Football, both in Honduras and every other country with a strong footballing tradition. Soccer is a US term because fro them football is what everyone else callas American football. there is no reason to call this game soccer in the article, SqueakBox 21:44, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

The war was caused by several factors. The main reason that meant the lastdrop was the game. I'll explain this short. Salvadorans went to work to Honduras because the country was becoming very prosperous. Hondurans became angry and started expelling Salvadorans from the country, which did not make the Slavadorans very happy. This continued for some time. When the World Cup came the tensions between both countries was high. Honduran governement got hold of some information from El Salvador that made clear Salvadoran intentions. Salvadorans wished to expand their territory to the Caribbean and make San Pedro Sula their new capital. The football game was just an excuse. The game played at Tegucigalpa was won by Honduras 3-0 and the following game played in San Salvador was lost by Honduras 3-0. It is said that their was an angry mob in the stadium whether the Honduran team lost or won, so that made Honduras lose on purpose. This is said by both countries oldest people yet there are no true records. When Salvadorans couldn't win the game they decided best to take over Honduras, hence the war started. As expected Salvadorans advance to the Atlantic coast and toward San Pedro Sula, yet the war only lasted 100 hours and the troops from El Salvador retreated before conquering any new territories. I am a Honduran national and this is the best way to explain in short terms the war.Valdez007 02:02, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I take it you know about Football War which isnt a bad article and pretty much confirms what you say. Part of the problem is that El Salvador doesnt have a lot of space for its 7 million odd inhabitants, SqueakBox 23:04, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gap in history

Between Spanish independence in 1838 and the Soccer War of 1969, there's nothing noted. For some reason, they decided to name a school after Franklin Roosevelt. What did Honduras do in World War II? Xaxafrad 18:55, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

None of Latin America got involved in WWII as far as I am aware. Honduras had a hard man dictator in place Tiburcio Carías Andino who was an ally of the US, SqueakBox 19:24, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I think they formally declared war against germany (couldve been WWI) but i dunno if they actually DID anything Jorobeq 05:38, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Having gone through the honduran high school system, its important to note that this gap is evident in all their schools and text books. In any history course you would get started with the Mayans, go through the discovery and early colonization, skip two and half centuries, then go to the independence part, the get to about the 1860's, then jump to the "banana companies" stay there for a few decades and then jump to the 60's, the 1960's. Good history books about anything else are almost non-existent or at least not taught. While in college in the US, someone knowing that I went to school in Honduras, asked me if I could help him write a paper abouth the Honduras- Nicaragua war of the early 1900's. I wasn't even aware there was such a war. Nor it was mentioned in 3 history books I used in high-school. Wikihonduras 14 February 2007

[edit] Proposed WikiProject

In my ongoing efforts to try to include every country on the planet included in the scope of a WikiProject, I have proposed a new project on Central America at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Central America whose scope would include Honduras. Any interested parties are more than welcome to add their names there, so we can see if there is enough interest to start such a project. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 17:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Battalion 316

There needs to be some mention of the government-backed death squad Battalion 316Notmyrealname 06:59, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Well add it and source what you add, that would be great, SqueakBox 16:33, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Main Cities Section

I would like to discuss a complete rewrite of this section. As it stands as of March 4, 2007 is a just a combination of a list of the names of some cities and some personal opinions about some city attributes. The core of a section pertaining major cities cannot be just the detail of football stadiums and the list of some private billingual schools in San Pedro Sula. Wikihonduras 03:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Amen. This section is so weird. I've often thought about deleting it. There's quite a lot of material available on cities through the articles of the individual departments so I think we don't actually need a "Main Cities" section, just a cross reference.Rsheptak 22:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Agree, was just being polite. My therapist insist that I should work on this attribute, personally I think politeness is underated. Maybe just a list ranked by population, each with a link to their respective article? But deleting it would work too. Wikihonduras 03:34, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Somehow we must place ourself in the place of others who wish to learn about the country and its cities. Although there is nonimportant information we could insert a chart with the name of the cities (most visited by tourists and importance to the country) and a small detailed sentence about what defines each city on a nuetral basis. 137.30.238.220 19:30, 6 March 2007 (UTC)valdez007

I don't see the need, but if you're going to do it, make it a table in the demographics section, with links to the city pages, as was done in the "Mexico" article. There doen't need to be a top level heading called "Main Cities".Rsheptak 22:45, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The population table by city and the paragraph immediately following not only I think are redundant, but also contradict each other. The table has Tegucigalpa at 1.5MM while the paragraph just below has it at ~900M. The table has San Pedro Sula at 1.1MM and Puerto Cortes at 201M. The paragraph has the whole Cortes department at just 1.2MM (lower than the populations of SPS and Puerto Cortes) SPS is at 517M or half the population in the table. Wikihonduras 14:09, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] British & Spanish Honduras

I have lived all my life in Honduras, and in no textbook I have used, whether it be printed locally, in Central America or in the United States, has had the distinction of Spanish Honduras and British Honduras. That being cleared I have deleted that part from the article. If you have proof of textbooks printed in Honduras that denote that difference between Belize, please make a statement here and then proceed to repost that information.Valdez007 18:14, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

What is printed in Honduras is beside the point. This is an international and not a Honduran encyclopedia and this subject has been dealt with at length above. Please read that discussion and it would help to also read Wikipedia:Attribution, SqueakBox 18:37, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I have now restored this with references. This is abn encyclopedia in English and the fact that this country was known as Spanish Honduras to differentiate it from British Honduras and this unquestionably was how it was known at least in the UK until Belize became independent in 73, SqueakBox 18:43, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

The country and the world has known Honduras as Honduras and not as Spanish Honduras. That solves the international encyclopedia problem. There are no maps, whether in textbooks printed in that era (1970s-80s) that differ Belize and Honduras as British and Spanish Honduras. The term British Honduras derives from the manner the British used to differ. However, just because the British used the term it doesn't mean it should be taken internationally since not only the British made maps.Valdez007 01:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

But its not just British usage....Most of the English speaking world used (note the past tense here) "British" and "Spanish" Honduras to distinguish the two before the early 1970s. Not all the time, and not consistently, but the fact that it was used is indisputable. Examples from book titles of the period: "A Lady's Ride across Spanish Honduras(1884)", "Archaeological Investigations in the Bay Islands, Spanish Honduras (1935)", "The golden Caribbean; a winter visit to the republics of Colombia, Costa Rica, Spanish Honduras, Belize and the Spanish Main via Boston and New Orleans (1900)". We're not saying its a contemporary usage, but both Squeakbox and I heard it used in our lifetimes in two different English speaking countries, so it was used. Rsheptak 22:59, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

It was still in common usage in my childhood and it has been referenced so it should stay and so I restored it. i dont see what byour problem with this. It wouldnt be appropriate in the Spanish wikipedia but it is in the English. We are here to inform and this does, SqueakBox 23:19, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

You have proven your point because you have known the name in a certain time span. However we should take into consideration that some countries that didn't speak English but used English written maps did not use the terms Spanish and British Honduras. Yet, I see the reason why to mention the previuos terms, since this part of Wiki is for English purposes only.Valdez007 02:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Emigration in New Orleans

It would be nice to know the origin of why so many Hondurans live in New Orleans, making it the only city with a Hondurans as a Latin American majority. I know the information first hand, but would like to first hear opinions on whether to publish it or not.Valdez007 02:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

hmmmmm.......a lot of the latinos in mississippi are also from honduras. 24.116.54.170 02:00, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Originally, New Orleans was popular because there used to be direct boat service from Puerto Cortes and Tela to New Orleans. Do a search on "Great White Fleet". In addition to carrying bananas, it took passengers and cargo. Hondurans connected with the banana companies settled there. While the fleet still exists, New Orleans is no longer a port of call. Now its Freeport, Tx, Gulfport, MS., Miami, Fl., and Willmington, De.. Same with airline service. TAN-SASHA flew the New Orleans to San Pedro Sula route until they were shut down for buying uncertified replacement parts. Post Katrina I assume its because of the opportunities in construction and because of families already located there pre-Katrina. Why not write something? Rsheptak 16:58, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

For us folk here on the North Coast New Orleans is what faces us on the other side of the sea. And there are unquestionably lots of Hondurans in New Orleans (or were) and Mississippi; fascinating that they are the majority. Strikes me this should be put in New Orleans and this article, SqueakBox 17:36, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok I'll write draft and publish it in Wikipedia when I think it meets Wikipedia standards. I'll also try to put the same info in the New Orleans article. For the people that tell me about the Great White fleet, that may be true, but the true origin is in the Tela Railroad Company that operated in the country.72.200.29.102 19:08, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

TRR shipped its bananas on the Great White Fleet. Both are pieces of the story. Rsheptak 23:09, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Changes made

Hi, i made some changes on the article in hope of making in better. I updated the Demographic information, i removed the Indegenous groups sub section, as it was already mentioned before in the Demographic section. I made a new page, Honduran diaspora. I removed the information about there being 1.4 million Hondurans in the U.S. because in the same section in again mentioned "According to the U.S. Census Bureau (figures taken at the 2005 census) 460,000 Hondurans live there", so it contradicted itself. If any of you have any problems with the changed i made please inform me, thank you. LaNicoya 07:55, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I have reinstated the indigenous groups section. They simply deserve recognition as indigenous groups and not simply a treatment together with various immigrant groups and a general overview of the Honduran population.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 09:24, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I simply removed the sub-heading, do you think the population of the Indigenous groups should be added? LaNicoya 09:53, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

That would be good if the information is well sourced.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 11:19, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikiproject: Honduras

After seeing the creation of the Wikiproject:El Salvador, I thought it might be a good idea to create one for honduras. Jorobeq 23:51, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Latin cultures

Hello everyone! You may want to go to Latin cultures an participate in the article and discussion. There are a lot of disputed statements... The Ogre 12:37, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Honduras not a Secular State

While reading the article Secular_state noticed that Honduras (along with Nicaragua, El Salvador, Guatemala and Nicaragua) are NOT considered Secular States. The rest of Latin America was included in the list, so was Spain. Made me think first if this was even correct and second, why would that be? Specially considering that countries to which Honduras has strong cultural, historical ties and to which Honduras' legal system resembles (Spain, Mexico, etc) would be categorized as Secular and not Honduras. I understand the power of the church in Honduras, but is this power greater than in Mexico, Brasil, Spain, Costa Rica, etc? I checked a link to the Constiution of Honduras [4] And the word religion is only mentioned twice, when it talks about voting rights. What exactly makes Honduras (Again if this is correct) to be classified as non-secular one? Wikihonduras 19:38, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I am sure it and Guatemala are both secular states, SqueakBox 19:52, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, SqueakBox. Even if God himself declared Honduras "secular", we'd still want a published source. ☺ ~ Jeff Q (talk) 20:34, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Without a source we can say neither secular nor religious, SqueakBox 22:31, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

After going through the Honduran Constitution (although with very little legal background) I'd say the same. But wanted to post here first, to check some opinions before adding it into the Secular_state article. Wikihonduras 20:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikihonduras, can you cite specific information in the Constitution that suggests Honduras is officially secular? Come to think of it, there seem to be many missing sources for the list of states in Secular state. It also has a misleading statement, "as of 2006", which implies the list comes from a single source compiled in 2006, which if it was, isn't cited. Meanwhile, it's odd that an article about a nation that's 97% Roman Catholic (according to my 2004 CIA World Factbook) doesn't include a word about religion, one way or another. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 20:34, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

You mean besides the Honduran Constitution text as a whole? (Link posted above) I would argue that there is no source or part of its constitution that supports a counter position, that the official policy of Honduras is as a religious-based state. According to Wikipedia's definition of secularism as "Secular State is a state or country that is officially neutral in matters of religion, neither supporting nor opposing any particular religious beliefs or practices, and has no state religion or equivalent. A secular state also treats all its citizens equally regardless of religion, and does not give unfair preferential treatment for a citizen from a particular religion over other religions..." Since the 1982 Consitution is what currently defines the form of government, I'd say that I see no evidence that Honduras is not a secular state.

The fact that a majority of its population is of one relgion or the other is irrevelant, or how much religion is part of our daily lives, as long as the official postion of the government is to permit freedom of religion as stated above, the state should be considered secular. Most of the countries in the world have a majority of its population belonging to one religion or other, nonetheless they are very secular and are constantly struggling to keep it that way...India is a prime example and Turkey specially with recent events. Please see Republic_Protests.

As for other points related to the Secular_state article, I'd think is better to argue them there, you may have some valid points. Wikihonduras 22:31, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Just a quick check produced this - [5] which states that " There is no state religion. However, the Government consults with the Roman Catholic Church on key issues of mutual concern, such as education and foreign debt relief." Lots of other good stuff here. Not sure if it qualifies as a WP:RS. Notmyrealname 20:52, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Sounds very secular to me, the consultation bit is irelevant as all goves tewnd to consult with religious leaders, SqueakBox 22:34, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Without a source we can neither claim religious nor secular and nor must we, SqueakBox 22:31, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree, but the Secular_state article explicitely lists Honduras and Guatemala as not-secular, or the be precise..explicitely excludes from the Secular List. While checking the article other countries like USA, Denmark, the UK have defended a position one way or the other citing the Constitution. I think that a reference to the Honduras Constitution should be enough. If it isn't then for the meantime in Wikipedia, Honduras would default to be defined as a religious state unlike the rest of latin america, USA, Canada, Japan, etc and like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc. Wikihonduras 22:43, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

How about this "There is no state religion" [6]Notmyrealname 22:43, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

User Wikihonduras is correct. Honduras is a constitutionaly secular state. It became one with the 1880 constitution. Prior to 1880 it had been officially a Roman Catholic state (see http://countrystudies.us/honduras/84.htm). Article 77 of the 1982 consitution, as ammended through 2005 states "e garantiza el libre ejercicio de todas las religiones y cultos sin preeminencia alguna, siempre que no contravengan las leyes y el orden público." (see http://pdba.georgetown.edu/Constitutions/Honduras/hond05.html). This is exactly the same sort of evidence that is "cited" in the Secular_state article. I suggest Wikihonduras add it to the list of secular states along with a link to article 77 of the constitution and be done with this silly argument. Rsheptak 00:42, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

With Rsheptak's specific citation (instead of just a link to the whole Constitution), we may have some concrete evidence (although English Wikipedia needs it translated to English for reasonable verification). Wikihonduras's statement that Secular state "explicitely [sic] lists Honduras and Guatemala as not-secular" is incorrect, even with the subsequent qualification, because the article clearly states the the list is "incomplete". In other words, there may be secular states not contained in the list. Perhaps the information here (once translated) can be used to make the situation clearer both here and in that other article. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 05:39, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually sources in foreign languages are "prefered" but not "required". verification requires the editor that uses its own translation to include the foreing language source for verification by readers. Wikihonduras 13:37, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Jeffq, I believe you are misreading verification. The policy states that if we are quoting the constitution IN THE ARTICLE, we are required to provide a translation into english. The Secular state page uses references, not quotation, so this does not apply. Even when there is a translation provided, it is required to also give reference to the information in the original language, since translations may be in error or nuanced in a particular way. I don't know why you are requiring a translation into english of the relevant section of the constitution. Are you acting as some sort of gatekeeper for this article? In any event, the same requirement was not placed on the other countries in the list, so why is Honduras different? There is no scholarly impediment here. Why is this discussion here instead of on the Secular state page? Rsheptak 17:21, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

First, Rsheptak, I am hardly a gatekeeper for any article. My original comments were merely part of my "drive-by editing", in which I raise some points I hope regular editors will address. Honduras is not one of my major article focuses. Second, I don't know how you are coming by your narrow interpretation of Wikipedia:Verifiability (which is the policy I linked to above, and is what I assume you meant to as well, even though your link is actually to the disambiguation article Verification). To quote WP:V:

Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged…

Verification is necessary for any non-obvious factual material, not just quotations. Spanish text is by defintion non-obvious in en:WP, just as English text is in es:WP. Non-Spanish-speaking editors (likely the vast majority of en:WP editors) have no reliable source for claims that the Constitution includes a provision that qualifies Honduras as a secular state. Third, I totally agree that a reliable original-language source should always be cited. I also believe we should have a reliable source for any translation of the text that would allow editors to verify any statements, but quite a few Wikipedians don't share my concern about sourcing the necessary translations. In any case, we need some English statement — a link to a reliable translation of the relevant Constitution clause, a quoted, translated passage from the Constitution in a citation footnote, or even just an English description of the clause (or link to a reliable source for such). Fourth, all of this is true for the all the countries listed in Secular state, not just for Honduras. The only reason one might argue that what is currently there is acceptable would be if there was a reliable source for the list, as I wondered above, but there isn't (last time I checked). Finally, as this was a "drive-by" edit, I didn't expand it to raise these issues at Talk:Secular state because I'd hoped to stimulate concern among regular editors to spread the issue. I hadn't expected to become involved in arguments about basic sourcing policy. I apologize if I angered you. If I have time, I'll raise these points at the other article, as no one here seems to want to raise the larger issue over there yet. (I see that Wikihonduras has addressed the specific issue of Honduras there, although I haven't reviewed the source. Spot-checking the countries' sources, I see a Pandora's Box of issues related to the need for original-language material as well as English translations which I'm not prepared to investigate at the moment.) My hope for this article is that someone will add some mention of the religious aspects of Honduras — both its formal secular system and its popular faiths — with proper Spanish and English sourcing for that information. At the very least, it would address an important topic here as well as help inform readers of the other article looking for more information. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 19:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Jeffq, as I understand it, you believe WP:RS and WP:V to establish that all articles that exist in the english version of Wikipedia must be based on knowledge written and verifiable in the english language. Yet there is no explicit statement that sources must be in english in either policy. The crux of your reading seems to rest on your interpretion of "non-obvious facts" as requiring english-only sourcing. If that is the intent of WP:V and WP:RS then I would have expected them both to explicitly require the sources to be in english. I don't believe that is the intent, but if that is the intent, then they should be updated to make that explicit. Rsheptak 23:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok I am going to reply to all your question on whether Honduras is or not a Secular state. Honduras IS a Secular state. I am a Honduran national and have lived in the countyr my whole life. I am of a different religious denomination than the demoniant, which is Roman Catholic. The government is not tied to the church in any way. Also in any consults the government has with the church, those consults are done with all different denominations present to promote fairness. The constitution of Honduras also states that the government is not bound to any religious organization and is seperate. Questions? please askValdez007 03:56, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ranking by GDP per Capita

I see that recently the text which referes to Honduras and its ranking in the Americas by GDP per Capita was changed. I checked the sources and found two: - The IMF, which ranks Haiti as the poorest, then Bolivia and Then Honduras. - The CIA, Which ranks Haiti as the poorest, then Honduras and then Nicaragua.

Since the article was originally referencing the CIA source, I'd like to remove what currently is in the article.."Honduras is third poorest, after Haiti and Nicaragua" which doesn't seem to be supported by any of the sources listed and use the CIA one.

please see List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

Wikihonduras 18:14, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Are you referring to the last edit i reverted? The anon IP changed it to third but it originally stated Honduras as second poorest in the Western Hemisphere which uses the CIA source. LaNicoya •TALK• 18:28, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] edits by anonymous editor to population demographics

The population figures you provide do not match the reference. If you have a new reference, then change the figures. If you don't have a new reference, don't change the figures.Kww (talk) 05:08, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

If you bring them here and they are reliable we can incorporate them through the series of articles. we just have to make sure we don't get this kind of information wrong. Thanks, SqueakBox 05:50, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

I cant read this "/hɒnˈdʊərəs/;" which says how to pronounce Honduras in English but |I do know that we Brits pronounce it differently from the Americans, they say like dur and we say dyur, its a classic difference in the way we pronounce our us. Of course Spanish speakers also pronounce it differently because the H is silent (and the u like an American u, indeed this is what makes American more similar to Spanish than British English is). Can this one be fixed. Thanks, SqueakBox 23:06, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

It reads like I think you mean by "dyur". Americans say it both ways.Kww (talk) 23:24, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Is this trivial photo necessary?

The one with this caption: "In Honduras electricity comes in to households through overhead cables. Other cables carry telephone, cable television and broadband internet." True of most countries. No significance whatsoever. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.122.146.65 (talk) 23:54, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

If you think it is true of most countries then please source your claim. Thanks, SqueakBox 00:17, 2 June 2008 (UTC)