Talk:Homosexuality in Japan

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[edit] Kojiki reference

Well, the Kojiki wasn't written in early 7th century, but in the year 712, which is early 8th century, right?

Yes, Kojiki was compiled and published in 712. Hadrianvs et antinovs (talk) 00:08, 30 January 2008 (UTC)Hadrianvs

[edit] Accuracy?

Does anyone else think the content of this page is BS?--66.53.98.122 23:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it's highly exaggerated. This page makes it seem like everyone in Japan participated in this practice, when in reality a very small percentage of the population did...peasants, for the most part, did not, and they comprised 80% of the Japanese population. Also, not every samurai, shogun, or emperor participated...again, there is a great amount of exagerration on here making it seem very POV. There's no way I'm going to try to edit it, though, because my edits would be deleted in a second -- User:Squeemu —Preceding comment was added at 23:32, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

No.In Japan even poor peasants did "nanshoku" practice in the feudal era. Of course not "all of samurai, shogun, and emperors" did participated shudo. There were some strange people in everywhere.Hadrianvs et antinovs (talk) 04:11, 17 February 2008 (UTC)hadrianvs et antinovs

Please find me some good (real) sources that show that "nanshoku" took place amongst a good amount of the peasants. Perhaps it happened in some isolated cases, but during my fairly extensive study on this subject, I have found only information that either doesn't mention the peasants at all or that states that they did NOT participate in "nanshoku". Also, enough samurai, shogun, and emperors did not participate to warrant not calling them strange people. Squeemu (talk) 05:09, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Buddhist view

I's like to challenge a view expressed on this page. It says that there is no prohibition against male-male sex in Buddhism, specifically referring to monks. But this is not true. The vinaya, or monastic discipline, does prohibit all forms of sexual activity, including sex with men, women, self, animals, and inannimate objects. Buddhist monks are to refrain from any sexual activity whatso ever. Indeed the Dalai Lama has famously come out against the practice of male-male sex, although I think in his case he was over stepping the bounds by applying monastic rules to everyone. Be that as it may I think your section on Kukai needs rewriting, although I agree that the practice *is* associated with him. Kukai was insistent on maintaining the monastic rules of the Vinaya, which Professor Abe brings out in his book The Weaving of Mantra, and this was an important factor in his gaining the acceptance of the Nara Buddhist establishment. He is contrasted with Saicho the founder of Tendai who did suggest dropping the vinaya, and was universally deplored for even suggesting it! So what you are suggesting runs counter to what we know about Kukai. mahābāla 15:07, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC) (sorry I didn't sign this first time)

here are some quotes from Leupp:
"One of the most striking features about premodern Japanese homosexuality is the degree to which it was associated with the Buddhist religious establishment" (27-28)
He also says the link with Kukai is legend. In addition, he discusses some of the proscriptions against homosexuality in Buddhist literature (eg: the Ojoyoshu (985), but says (and I'm paraphrasing here) that they were largely disregarded in Japan, where there were no prohibitions emerging from Shinto or from Japanese interpretations of Confucianism.
Feel free to change whatever you think is wrong. Exploding Boy 12:46, Feb 5, 2004 (UTC)
I heard that the difference between Christianity and Buddhism, was that Buddhism didn't have the same concept of "Sin". That means, Sex is a human mistake, but it is up to the individual if s/he wants to live a life with the mistake, or detach him/herself from it.

Thanks. It seems that the Japanese were apt to become lax about monastic discipline because the history of Japanese Buddhism is replete with reformers who castigated their contemporaries! mahābāla 15:07, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Homosexuality in modern Japan

Why does the "Homosexuality in modern Japan" section concern itself solely with anime? What about actual people? How do they fit in? -Branddobbe 06:04, Sep 24, 2004 (UTC)

Probably because no one has had the chance to write anything yet. I don't think it's a purposeful exclusion. Exploding Boy 16:35, Sep 24, 2004 (UTC)
"Some manga are directly aimed at the gay market, and these can sometimes show the depiction of erect penises, oral, and anal sex, masturbation, rape, bondage, and sadomasochism."
I might be wrong, but I think girls' manga also often includes depiction of these images..
I assure you, it does. Orinthe

About six months have passed and nothing has been written on it. Will someone volunteer soon? Mike H 10:01, Feb 28, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Minor edit in "Military same-sex love"

I changed "...where it was customary for a young samurai to apprentice to an older and more experienced man, whose lover he would then become for a number of years." to "...where it was customary for a young samurai to apprentice to an older and more experienced man. The young smaurai would be his lover for many years." because the former sounded awkward.

I know it's not ideal, but I figured that I should change it a bit. If anyone has a more fluid way to structure this feel free to change it. angrysquirrel July 6, 2005 02:09 (UTC)

[edit] modern...

I've added a popular media section for present situation. It needs A LOT of work.

Also, a commentary of life in Japan, something about society is geared for straight married couples, makes it difficult for even straight singles, straight un-married couples, let alone les and gay to live. Lack of open discrimination, but undercurrents... etc etc. post added by User:DDD DDD

Please sign your posts using four tildes (~), like this: ~~~~. Thanks. Exploding Boy 07:08, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

EP. sorry about that. still kinda new here. forget often. DDD DDD 07:23, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Confirmation

Howdy, I just merged some from the German version. Unfortunately, the Germans do tend to assume that people are only interested in reading foreign information in a German context (which pisses off the Wikipedians from Austria to no extent, but I suppose this tangent is gettin a bit long...) Anyway, one of the statements in the German page was that civil unions performed in Germany were not legally valid in Japan. Is it safe to assume that same-sex marriage, civil unions, and domestic partnerships from ANY other country are not recognised, or should I just leave it as stands. samwaltz 20:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe so. There is nothing at a nation-wide level. However, some local governments may have passed a resolution to recognize a same-sex marriage and offer some services reserved for "other" marriage. Non-legally, I believe most Japanese will recognize an officially recognized same-sex marriage as having a legal meaning and consider it a marriage. So, the couple will be referred as "Married couple of (surname)". --Revth 07:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is all this true?

Was homosexuality commonplace in Japan? I find it hard to beleive. There are similar articles on Greece, Rome, and China. I find it hard to believe that these great civilizations would practice pederasty and have homosexuality commonplace.66.53.109.54 21:43, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Really? Do you also find it hard to believe that there are homosexual animals, such as the Bonobo (Errr... tweaked spelling)? Or that some Native American tribes revered homosexuality? How about the Egyptians? I've seen photos of dynastic Egyptian works with homosexual motifs. For that matter, do you find it hard to believe that people spell "believe" with an i-e?~~
Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I find it hard to believe that homosexuality was once a majority. It will always be a minority. If you were born heterosexual in ancient times, why would you pursue a same sex relationship? It is the same today. If you are born homosexual, are you going to adopt a heterosexual life just to fit in? No, because you were not born that way. It is the same in ancient times. If the entire society, hypothetically, embraced same sex relationships, but if you were born heterosexual, you are not going to find a same sex lover just to fit in.66.53.109.54 23:14, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
In most societies people are not terrified of same-sex affections and thus freely recognize - and are drawn to - beauty in others of the same sex, more or less as often as to the other sex. Today peaches, tomorrow strawberries. That is the rule, and out present situation is the exception. Haiduc 23:32, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Errr... I misread. Sorry. No, I don't think there were any claims about it being the majority orientation/identification per se. However, part of the article discusses how the Japanese historically had not identified their selves with their sexual action, any more than the average meat-eating human considers herself to be a carnivore. Thus, the occasional foray into other types of sex acts does not make one gay or straight any more than the occasional salad makes me a vegetarian. Similarly, people who experience certain same-sex environments, such as prison or military service, may engage in same-sex sexual acts without considering themselves gay. (Yet another type of act which is observable among animals. samwaltz 02:05, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Samwaltz has got it right according to the historical analyses I have read. The way these things were viewed was totally different back then. There is a book out called Homosexuality and Civilization by Louis Crompton, you might be interested. --Bluejay Young (talk) 21:36, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not Considered Cheating?

I recently heard that if a married man has sex with another man in Japan it traditionally is not considered cheating. I'm not sure if this is true so I wanted to make sure before posting. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TheRealdeal (talk • contribs) 18:40, 22 April 2007 (UTC).
Oh, many closeted bisexual men delude themselves into thinking that in Europe as well! Rsynnott 10:36, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Slang

Is there any way to find a source for these slang terms? Also, I am very shocked to see "Dondake" not listed. It's very popular right now in Japanese mainstream media. They're even selling keychains now that say "Dondake!" when you press a button. --Do Not Talk About Feitclub (contributions) 13:16, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Some of the slang terms are in Manga! Manga! by Freidrich (sp?) Schott. I can look them up and get the references in later. --Bluejay Young (talk) 21:36, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Heian Diaries

A friend just pointed out something to me on line that led me to this page, where it says that there are some Heian diaries that discuss homosexual relationships. I have heard this before, but I don't have the titles. I'd like a source on that, mostly because I want to know which diaries they are in. --Bluejay Young (talk) 21:36, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

There are many diaries that contain male love affairs. e.g. 『台記』、『春記』、『小右記』、等々。etc.Hadrianvs et antinovs (talk) 00:30, 30 January 2008 (UTC)hadrianvs

Thank you! Is there any way you could translate that? --Bluejay Young (talk) 17:19, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Gei-comi

Would someone post some examples of titles of gei-comi in this or a related thread? It may be a much more obscure genre, but I've found no examples of it beyond this Wiki mention. AtenRa (talk) 16:10, 20 December 2007 (UTC)