Talk:Homosexuality and Judaism

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[edit] Orthodox NPOV

The Orthodox section needs an overhaul. Looking through the history, it had a more balanced and encyclopedic paragraph, although espousing a lenient POV. Then, it was changed to something that doesn't even state that this is a position (or set of positions) but seems to claim the "abomination of homosexuality" etc as a fact. I've changed the more obvious references but will try to do a more in-depth touch-up later. I think that a balanced paragraph on the Orthodoxy should include 1) the halakha as it is from the Tanach, Mishna, Gemara, Yad, Tur etc 2) strict/traditional moral judgements as extensions of the halakha (for eg the whole notion of orientation is quite post-Talmudic) and 3) a reference to some of the more lenient opinions/cases. Frikle 11:49, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

There's no such thing as orientation as far as halakha is concerned, apart from the fact that entertaining lewd thoughts (hirhurei ha-lev) is bad for homo- and heterosexuals alike. JFW | T@lk 15:26, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

True, - my point was that, while not an issue in halakha, there is a wide range of views in the Orthodox community (including Rabbis and people of some authority) as to how to actually deal with homosexuals in the community. Furthermore, there is some influence of the scientific notion of orientation on how to consider the issue. I think that in terms of responses, the article mentions Teshuvah, however that is not the exclusive and only approach by people and the prevalence of other approaches (such as counselling and the keeping of private things private especially as this relates to lashon hara) should be mentioned. Whether people like it or not, the issue has become at least somewhat more complex this century and that should be reflected in the article. Also I think in terms of halakhah, the reference to Sifra on lesbian acts and some of the Talmudic discussions should be mentioned briefly. Frikle 03:46, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

You're right, Frikle. Actually, I inserted the Sifra link earlier, but Ezra Wax removed it when toughening up the tone of the article.
As for the "scientific notion of orientation", this is what we call yetzer ha-ra, and I'm not sure if this should be an issue.
As for the community's way of responding to gay Jews, this is worth mentioning only if you can identify any trends. Patchyness would ruin this very important section. JFW | T@lk 13:53, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Well, the recent updates in the article especially "Due to the small but growing tendency for some Orthodox Jews to engage in research on the sociology and biology of this subject, and the small but growing tendency to engage in conversation with homosexuals themselves, some Orthodox Jews have changed their minds on this issue" is exactly what I had in mind, as it identifies a trend while not exaggerating its prevalence, and hence is worth mentioning. Frikle 00:11, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)

User:RK has been helpful in adding the material on the soul-searching by the Modern Orthodox element, but I disapprove of long direct quotes by someone who cannot be regarded as a spokesperson for Orthodoxy. A quote by Rav Elyashiv, Rav Metzger or any other authoratitive person would have done, but not someone whom I've personally never heard of and who is mentioned without affiliations. I have therefore removed the quote; perhaps you could use it as a reference without actually quoting this (politically highly incorrect) statement verbatim. JFW | T@lk 18:28, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I have just added details of the Orthodox position(s) by two rabbis long known as spokespeople for Orthodoxy, Rabbi Immanuel Jakobovits (former Chief Rabbi of the United Kingdom), and Rabbi Norman Lamm, former Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshiva University, and a defacto leader of Modern Orthodox Judaism. Given the length of Rabbi Lamm's original article in the Encyclopedia Judaica, I am sure that the quotes I have included, found within our original article, constitute "fair use", and are not even close to a copyright violation. (It is always fair use to copy several paragraphs from a many page essay, as long as these quotes are used as a small part of a larger original article.) However, if someone would like to read the entire article by Rabbi Lamm, and summarize it in their own words, we could add this original summary and reduce the amount of quoting. (We should not, however, remove all quotes.) RK

As someone who is well read in the responsa literature of Conservative Judaism, I find some points of interest: The rabbis of the Rabbinical Assembly's Committee on Jewish Law and Standards all follow the lead of Rabbi Lamm's 1974 paper; however they go further in many ways due to the massive amount of scientific research that we have accumulated since then. Even Conservative rabbis who are strongly against changing any Jewish views on homosexuality admit that we are obligated to review this subject. Rabbi Joel Roth writes:

Each age may have its list of questions which seem unlikely ever to require serious discussion, yet subsequent ages may find it necessary to discuss those very questions. Answers which may have seemed a foregone conclusion years ago, may no longer be self-evidently true. However, willingness to discuss a question in no way predetermines what the answer will be. It is possible to discuss a question and reaffirm a longstanding precedent as it is to discuss it and abrogate the precedent. When a longstanding precedent is question by a sufficient number of people who cannot be dismissed as 'lunatic fringes', it may no longer be sufficient merely to assert the precedent stands because it is the precedent. Surely precedent will stand unless there is compelling reason for it not to stand. But it must be remembered that those who are questioning the precedent are offering what they believe to be compelling reason for overturning it. One who wishes to reaffirm the precedent must now respond to the claim that there is compelling reason to overturn it. If there is evidence that the 'compelling reason' is not as compelling as those who assert it claim, the precedent should stand. If one can offer equally compelling reason why the precedent should stand, then surely it should stand. And if, in the course of discussion and analysis, one comes to the conclusion that there is, indeed, compelling reason to overturn the precedent, one should support overturning the precedent. It is dangerous for halakhah to refuse to discuss a question for fear that legitimate discussion will result in the 'wrong' answer.
(Homosexuality, Joel Roth, accepted by the CJLS in March, 1992)
Published in Responsa 1991-2000: The Committee on Jewish Law and Standards, Ed. Kassel Abelson and David Fine, The Rabbinical Assembly, 2002

I have lots of comments on a topic I know quite well. First of all, regarding Orthodoxy, it is impossible to cover this topic without dealing with Rabbi Steve Greenberg, beginning with his Yaakov Levado article and leading up to his book Wrestling with God and Man, which has made important waves in redefining the Orthodox position vis a vis homosexuality. Second, although it appears in the links section, greater mention should be made of Sandi DuBowski's film Trembling Before G-d, which took the issue of homosexuality in the Orthodox community right out of the closet. What Lamm wrote in the Encyclopedia Judaica thirty years ago was just that--written thirty years ago. There have been some remarkable developments over the past five years. As for lesbianism, it is sharply distinguished in rabbinic literature from male homosexuality--the biblical prohibition is only on male homosexuality (according to Rashi, anal sex), whereas women (known as nashim mesalselot) is at most a rabbinic injunction. There should be discussion on what the prohibition is, possible sources of the prohibition, and even Steve's discussion of responding to the prohibition. Furthermore, there should be discussion on Shlomo Riskin's discussion of embracing the sinner, not the sin. The Chief Rabbi of England also discusses the issue at length, and there are many articles by prominent rabbis discussing it. Right now, we just have a lengthy quote, that is quite out-dated. You may as well bring in the responsa of Rabbi Moshe Feinstein too. As for the Conservative movement, there are sharp differences between what is happening in Israel and what is happening in America under Schorsch. Five or six years ago, at a meeting of Conservative rabbis in Jerusalem, there was a meeting between Conservative rabbis and representatives of the gay community from traditional (i.e., observant) homes, which had a major impact on the local attitude. Speaking just yesterday with a member of Jerusalem's City Council, I was told that there is no way that there would have been a gay pride parade in teh city were it not for the fact that Jerusalem has an ultra-Orthodox mayor. There is quite a bit more tolerance, albeit perhaps not enough, even within ultra-Orthodox circles. Danny 00:07, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

All excellent points which should be incorporated into the article. I agree that the current quotes are old, and newer ones needed to be added. The two added today are a start; more should be forthcoming. Was the meeting with the Conservative rabbis reported in any papers, or mentioned on TV or radio? (I assume so, since you note that it had a major impact.) RK 03:14, Jul 29, 2004 (UTC)

At the start of this talk page, I thought that there wasn't enough on the more lenient threads within Orthodoxy, but now I think there is too much. It dominates the article in a disproportionate way. Although many of the quotes are interesting and important, quoting several paragraphs seems too much. For instance, the Jakobovits quote repeats the first part of the section, espousing the traditional blanket condemnation. Perhaps some of the articles could be merely cited/linked/referenced? Frikle 04:44, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Good point; most Orthodox Jews, so far as I know, are not having any significant re-evalualtion of their views on this subject. Many Orthodox Jews have perceived this movie, and the resulting discussions, as an attack on Judaism, and as part of a homosexual agenda. This reaction needs to be noted as well. What about adding the view of Rabbi Meir Fund? (In one of the articles below) He's pretty well known. RK


None of the rabbis cited are Halakhic authorities in any way, they are mere institutional or (public) pulpit rabbis who know how to make public statements. There is no "minhag" (custom) or law to be learned from them really. Besides, Rabbi Fund is not endorsing anything, as you may imply, he clearly states and acknowledges: "...“I do not detect the slightest move toward acceptance of the behavior, for the obvious reason that no matter how strongly the cultural tide crashes against the wall of Torah, that wall will not give way,” Rabbi Fund said...." Rabbi Fund is known to specialize in welcoming all sorts of people, converts and Baalei teshuva, and this category of gays is just another group of "rachmonus cases" ("pitiful people") he is trying to welcome or keep in the fold. In the end he hopes to have everyone fully halachicaly observant, no doubt it. He certainly is not on a jihad to gain acceptance for gays outright in Orthodox circles. IZAK 03:50, 30 Jul 2004 (UTC)

First off, the articles do cite halakhic authorities. Perhaps they do not cite people that you personaly respect, but you do not speak for all Orthodox Jews. Secondly, you totally misunderstood what I wrote. I only agreed with Frikle that the article had now represented Orthodox Judaism as being too pro-gay, and I stated that for balance we needed to present the other side, which as far as I know is the majority of Orthodoxy. Thus, I stated that we should quote someone like Rabbi Meir Fund precisely because he does not accept or want a change in how the Orthodox Jewish community regards homosexuality! In other words, I agree with you, and that is why we need to cite well known Orthodox rabbis who hold this view. Why you imagine I said otherwise is beyong me; I certainly wrote nothing of the sort. RK

The statement by Rabbi Benjamin Hecht that "homosexual drive serves no purpose" lacks credibility, since in point of fact it serves many purposes, not the least of which is the need for intimacy and self-affirmation which is essential to the human experience. PM

[edit] Agenda

I protest. This article's agenda is to show that it is OK to be lenient, and that any Orthodox person who thinks otherwise is deliberately ignoring the facts. Ezra Wax

[edit] Improving this article

Reading over this about a year since I last did, this article is a mess. After doing some tweaks, I was thinking of bigger changes and one idea was to cut down on the verbatim quotations of resolutions, responsa, action plans etc etc. It seems to me that they clutter. This should not be a direct discussion or compendum of what people have actually said - a better approach would be to extract and collapse into the article (leaving references) thus creating more space for a more clear, logical and coherent article. An impossible dream for this particular article I must say...

Agreements? Criticisms? Suggestions? Curses and abuse? Frikle 11:59, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it is a dump of direct quotes, and with regard to Orthodoxy, focuses heavily on extreme minority positions. Without even looking at the history, I know with certainty who did that. Summarizing positions, with appropriate cites and links, would be much better. Jayjg (talk) 17:15, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Recent Changes

Just wanting to clear up two changes I made that I think should be reinserted. The one about the prohibition of specifically anal sex from the Torah verse is from Rashi to the second verse about Mishkevei Zahar where he defines is as something like "inserting into a tube". Even if this isn't the plain meaning, Rashi's interpretation should be mentioned. The second one is about Rabinnic lashes. There are two kinds of lashes: mid'Oraita and mid'Ravanan. Lesbian sex cannot incur the first because there is no actual negative commandment (or at least the Rambam didn't seem to think so). Again I thought this should be made clear, perhaps in a subsequent statement. Frikle 06:12, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I corrected the Talmudic citation in the first paragraph "Homosexuality and the Torah", which must be from Nedarim 51a. However, since this is a word-midrash which has nothing to do with the Tanakh per se and isn't even explicitly connected to homosexuality in the Talmud, the reference could just as well be deleted altogether.

I added clarifications to the rest of the Orthodox section and put in a reference to Trembling Before G-d under recent Modern Orthodox responses.

I also deleted the last section "Levels of modesty required according to the Torah and Halakha" as having no particular connection to the topic of the article.

Shorespirit 2:43, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Text From Elsewhere

The article Homosexuality and Christianity had a reference to the Talmud, which was of course as out of place as a reference to the New Testament would be here. I'm moving it here in case anyone wants to make use of it.

Modern readers often understand Leviticus as prohibiting homosexuality as such. But homosexual orientation denoting same-sex love, homoerotic feelings and sexual intercourse at the same time, is not a concern of Leviticus at all. The biblical expression "lie with someone" may be a euphemism for the act of penetration. Therefore, non-penetrative sex was never considered to be unlawful by the Jewish law. "The Talmud understands the Torah's interdiction in Leviticus 18 and 20 to be limited to male/male anal intercourse. Other male/male non-penetrative sexual practices, such as intercrural intercourse, are included in the category of masturbation—a category that is condemned instead as "destruction of seed." To phrase the matter in contemporary language, the issue at stake in Leviticus and its later Talmudic interpretation is proper gender-role differentiation, not orientation or object choice. The text does not address the issue of homosexuality as that issue typically is framed in our conversations today" (Daniel Boyarin “Are there any Jews in ‘The History of Sexuality’?”, Journal of the History of Sexuality, vol. 5 no. 3 (1995) 337-39).

A.J.A. 21:27, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] sentence

If he does teshuva (repentance), i.e. he ceases his forbidden actions, regrets what he has done, apologizes to God, and makes a binding resolution never to repeat those actions, he is seen to be forgiven by God (in a similar manner to the other capital crimes, except murder).

Why except murder? Teshuva works for anything. Granted that you would still kill him but that does not mean that he is not forgiven by god (see Makot 13b). am I missing something? Jon513 12:38, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Liberal/UK Movements

This article doesn't mention the UK Liberal Movement, which recently started having same-sex marriage ceremonies, nor does it really mention any UK movements. It probably needs a whole new section, and I will leave it to someone who knows more about it to do. Thanks! Daniel (☎) 16:37, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Economic Injustice

this is tangental, but the first paragraph stated that homosexuality under jewish law was on par with "incest, idolatry, eating unclean animals, and economic injustice". What biblical verses forbid economic injustice? I am aware that a (jewish?) slave in ancient times must be offered freedom after 7 years of service and the tithing practice. What other laws are there on this subject?

Theft; lending to a Jew on interest; not taking care of the Levite, widow, Ger, orphan; taking the pledge of the poor overnight when they require it; not following the laws of the forgotten sheaf, peah etc; using false weights and measures; testifying falsely etc etc - in other words a huge array of laws dealing with the economy, trade, justice and the like. Not sure what "on par with" means in this context though. Frikle 13:26, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
In this context "on par with" was used because the very same word that is often (mis)translated as 'abomination' is used to describe all those acts.
While it is clear that Halakah frowns on homosexuality (the level of which is clearly debatable), it does so with the same language that it uses for forbidding eating shellfish or stealing office supplies.74.59.81.80 19:02, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed Section to Talk

Removed unsourced section to Talk. Sorry, but per WP:V the Bible itself can be used as a source only for meanings at the most literal and obvious level, and simply cannot be used as a source for interpretations of this nature. The idea that a close male-male relationship should be assumed to be sexual in nature would be laughable in many cultures, possibly including the one David and Jonathan lived in. --Shirahadasha 01:02, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

===King David and Jonathan===
There is some speculation regarding King David and Jonathan the son of King Saul. Relevant sources are as follows:
When Samuel, the prophet, requested that Yishai (Jesse) bring him his son David, the verse relates that "He was ruddy with eyes of beauty and good appearance."(I Samuel 16:12)
After David killed Goliath the giant and spoke with Saul. "Jonathan's soul became bound to David's soul, and Jonathan loved him as [he loved] his own soul. Saul took him that day and did not allow him to return home. Jonathan and David made a covenant because he loved him as [much as] himself. Jonathan removed the coat that was on him and gave it to David, and his suit and even his sword and even his bow and even his belt. David went wherever Saul sent him, and would be successful. Saul put him in charge of the soldiers. He was good in the eyes of the entire nation and in the eyes of the Saul's ministers."
Even though Jonathan was the crown prince, he was able to allow David to assume authority that was rightfully his own because of his great love for him.
On Jonathan's passing King David eulogized him: "I have great pain over you, my brother Jonathan, you were very pleasant to me, your love for me was more wondrous than the love of women." (II Samuel 1:26)
This verse doesn't say anything about either Jonathan or David's love of women. David did have an affair with Bat Sheva, whom he married. The Talmud says that the affair was not technically adultery, and that David was forgiven for it. That is the only relationship that David had that is regarded as improper according to the prophet Nathan in the Biblical narrative.

[edit] Higher Percentage of Gays/Lesbians Found in Modern Jews -- Research

I'm wondering if anyone has come across any serious scholarly research that has examined the fact that Jews tend to be quite overrepresented amongst the gay and lesbian populations in the modern World, particularly in the USA and Western Europe. I have read about this on certain Jewish websites and in a couple Jewish newsletters/newspapers, but have yet to find any academic research on this matter. I know that the worldwide Jewish community is generally very gay/lesbian friendly, but I am looking for information/statistics that can confirm the noticeably higher incidence of homosexuality/lesbianism in the (mostly secular) Jewish population. Thank you for any information that you can provide. --172.144.204.92 03:37, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

I highly doubt such claims. Obtaining reliable information on such a sensitive area is very difficult to begin with. My personal experience has been that gay people exist in all cultures. It might be speculated that non-Orthodox Jewish culture is more open to acknowledging gay sons or daughters than Christian culture, but I don't personally think that is the case. Even if Conservative and Reform Judaism are more accepting of gays than much of Catholic or Fundamentalist Protestantism, I think that most young people in a Conservative Jewish home are still quite frightened to reveal their sexuality. I grew up gay in a modern Orthodox household. In any event, data in areas such as this is notiously unreliable, IMO. It's like trying to obtain data on monogamy, whether straight or gay. There is too much difficulty in ascertaining the reliability of responses and in obtaining a proper sampling, for there to be any sense of reliability in statistics. Again, my opinion only. 66.108.105.21 09:11, 3 December 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

[edit] Dropped reference

In the Conservative section we lost the referenc to Rabbi Simchah Roth's responsum Dear David. The paper has been influential in allowing the 6 December decision to move forward, and will be used in an abridged form in other meetings regarding homosexuality. As the article stands I am not sure whether it still has a place, so I am simply noting it here for other editors to consider. Fiddle Faddle 15:03, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adding Orthodox Jewish points of view

It is a mystery why no one has allowed the Orthodox Jewish community to describe its point of view, other than that of the Modern Orthodox community. Charedi Judaism has deep-seated feelings, which are based on their view of morality and God. They geuninely view homosexuality as a threat, often as a perversion, and sometimes as a rebellion against God. I have started a section. Lets use Orthodox sources to allow the Orthodox to describe their own views in an neutral POV. Mark3 02:02, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Previously the only material labeled "Orthodox" was an unreferenced and uncitet set of views from the Zohar. That is a valid, useful part of the article, but it belongs in a separate section. Mark3 02:02, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

  • Hi Mark3: Your question's underlying premise is misguided. The so-called "Orthodox" or Chareidi (on Wikipedia it's called Haredi) view is encapsulated in Homosexuality and Judaism#Homosexuality in the Torah because Haredim seek to abide by the 613 mitzvot, this one included. What is the mystery? Unlike the Reform and Conservative who try to do create intellectually dishonest and non-Halakhic "reforms" -- the Orthodox/Haredi position is to abide by the commandmenst of the Torah and its application through the Shulkhan Arukh. IZAK 11:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but what you say is an Orthodox point of view, and not a fact. Conservative Jews also claim that they are following the 613 mitzvot! In fact, even the most liberal Conservative responsa just one out of seven) still holds that the prohibition against mishkivei isha is binding. It is only Liberal Judaism, incl. Reform and Reconstructionist, that holds that the mitzvot of the Torah are non-binding. Mark3
I think you may soon have a problem with much of Orthodoxy itself. In the last generation some Orthodox rabbis have reversed their view on societal constraints against homosexuals; reversed their views on shunning homosexuals in the religious Jewish community; reversed their views on outeach to openly homosexual Jews; and reversed their views on discussing this issue in public, with an ear towards compassionate dialogue. According to many Charedim, this itself is a violation of Judaism! These are violations of rabbinic ethical norms, and previously have been seen as threatening the Torah itself. Yet now much of Orthodoxy is where Reform Judaism was only 25 years ago, and where Conservatism was only 15 years ago. If you think that this trend is going to suddenly stop dead in its tracks, you would probably be incorrect. I think there will continue to be very slow changes in how Orthodoxy understands this issue. Mark3 17:36, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pre-Abraham period

Does anyone know about that? 62.128.42.30 06:36, 18 October 2007 (UTC)