Talk:Homo floresiensis

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Contents 1 Human ancestor? 2 Date of discovery? 3 Main page 4 Not fossils 5 Technology? 6 Nickname 7 Intelligence 8 Importance 9 Mythical? creatures 10 Ebu Gogo 11 How did the Hobbit reach Flores? 12 Why were they so short? 13 "See also Pygmies" 14 Were they stocky or slender? 15 Natural Selection 16 "The artist's impression" 17 Not a dwarf but a microcephalic H.sapiens 18 Modern phrenology 19 Austrolomelanesid or Australomelanesid? 20 Brain-mass minus spinal-cord-mass versus encephalization quotient 21 Did they live in the 1700's? 22 External links removal 23 New user edit 24 "Case characteristics" 25 Update on Bones 26 Missing information 27 Theological/religious reactions? 28 First determined to be a new species 29 Contemporaneous? 30 Books on the subject? 31 Controversy 32 Mixing Ebu Gogo and facts 33 A Report in Science disputes finding a new species 34 Microencephaly is Micrencephaly? 35 Locator map Flores islands 36 Joelr31 37 Current Expeditions 38 Bias in this article 39 Possible update 40 Misleading picture 41 "confirmation of species status" 42 New Bones Discovered(?) 43 coexistence with humans 44 cleanup 45 Ebu Gogo in introduction 46 Something to note 47 New info? 48 Some more new info 49 Shorten intro 50 Regular, maintenance copy editing needed 51 African sightings

[edit] Human ancestor?

The National Geographic headline '"Hobbit" Discovered: Tiny Human Ancestor Found in Asia' is positively misleading, as there is no proof at all that, even if H. floresiensis is confirmed to be a true new species, that they were ancestors of H. sapiens. I'm removing the link, as the New Scientist one seems much better. -- Anon.

It is a very poor title, since no one is even claiming they are our ancestors, in fact quite the opposite. It should say "Tiny Human Cousins" or somesuch. But it does happen to be one of the better articles, since as it points out it was an expedition partly funded by NG. --Eean 05:24, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The National Geographic headline seems to be using "ancestor" in the non-scientific sense of "forerunner" (merriam-webster). In that sense I think their usage is more or less correct in the popular context, although many will probably feel they should be using it according to the more scientific usage. --Nectarflowed 10:43, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

But the really interesting thing about this discovery is that they were not forerunners, but actually (possibly) lived at the same time as the anatomically modern human (only in another part of the world, or possibly even in the same environment as Homo sapiens). — David Remahl 10:54, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Date of discovery?

Does anyone know when this discovery was made? (by the way, I'm the original author of this article - wasn't logged in at the time.) --Sum0 18:46, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I heard that they waited almost a year before publishing it. But I don't know wether that means early 2004 or late 2003. Is anyone a Nature subscriber? — David Remahl 10:56, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Sorry to take so long to answer your important question, but I've only just noticed it - although I've been aware of the issue since day one (or day minus one).

The important date in the discovery of a new species is the date of publication of the original description. This is part of a formal, legal-type process which must follow the rules of an International Code of Nomenclature (of which there are more than just one, which common sense would suggest). For Homo floresiensis, the intended original description is dated 28 October 2004 (on p.1055 of Nature v.431 under the title "A new small-bodied hominin from the Late Pleistocene of Flores, Indonesia"). But, in my off-the-web reprints, I see the name "Homo floresiensis" in at least four documents published on 27 October 2004. One or other of the authors of these publications, Rex Dalton, Henry Gee, Kate Wong and Michael Hopkin (and probably others), may well have some claim to be the author of Flores Man for the remainder of time. A decision may be needed on this, possibly by the International Commission on Zoological Nomenclature in accordance with their Rules. As I understand it, the issue would hinge on whether an earlier publication containing the new species' Latin names contained a recognisable description of the species.

The [intended] original description is not without a related misdemeanour - the name "Homo floresiensis" appears in the Summary at the start of the article (Nature. 28 October 2004: 1055). This is inadvisable in that it can lead to the present problem, such as by an editor pre-publishing the Summary (or Abstract, etc). I shall now edit paragraph 1 of the Main Page accordingly. Have fun, but don't forget the environment! Stan(CS)Woods 203.167.171.206 22:27, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

That's me above. I've now overcome a cookie problem and can sign off properly. First a definite answer to SumO's question: the Holotyoe, LB1, was excavated in September, 2003. This is from the original Nature article quoted above. Cheers, — Stanskis 01:49, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

My comments above are more or less unnecessary: the intention is clear that Nature magazine publish the original description on October 28, 2004. At the same time it was not the intention of any journalist to pre-empt the research scientists.

But, the intentions of the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature (ICNZ)(4th Edn, 2000) touch on the points raised. This is for good reasons - to avoid future nomenclatural problems. These greatly exceed the number of valid taxonomic names, that is, lots of problems do get created. The ICZN says:

"Recommendation 9A: Authors to avoid unintended publication in abstracts. ...be "not liable to unintended publication.""

"Recommendation 21A: Publication on other than specified date. An author, editor or publisher should not publish, permit to be published, or distribute a work [one containing a 'nomenclatural act'] in whole or in part, for the first time other than on the specified date of publication. An author who receives separates in advance of the specified date of publication should not distribute them until he or she is certain that the work has been published."

Cheers, — Stanskis 23:00, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Main page

This has got to be the science story of the year, yet it isn't on the front page. - Xed 20:13, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Good point, although I'm sure it'll be there in the next day or so. ALso congreatualtions to all contributors for getting such an importnant and informative article up so quickly. Lisiate 20:24, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Why wait? Even though Main Page is protected, the page that you wnat to edit is Template:In the news. (I have done so.) -- Toby Bartels 22:29, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Not fossils

The BBC article says that the remains aren't fossilised, and might possibly yield DNA... Our front page and this article say that the remains are fossilised. Can someone try to find out which is right and correct our article if necessary? fabiform | talk 22:43, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Just for the record: The front page says it only because our article says it. -- Toby Bartels 23:10, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Nature's own news site agrees that they're not fossils. I will edit accordingly. -- Toby Bartels 23:40, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Cheers Toby, good investigative work. :) fabiform | talk 23:51, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks! (Although I forgot to fix the box on the Main Page!) -- Toby Bartels 02:36, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Technology?

"The isolated position of Flores suggests that the ancestors of H. floresiensis may have reached the island by boat around 100,000 years ago, suggesting a hitherto unsuspected technological capability."

I believe this is incorrect.... The term used to describe the process by which the H. floresiensis may have landed on the island, "rafting", has nothing to do with boats. Rafting means that a piece of some mainland broke off due to some geological process (a mudslide is a possibility), and literally turned into a giant floating raft, carrying plants and animals to whatever it crashes into. (These natural "rafts" can be several kilometers across...) As an extra note, it's possible that certain features of the H. floresiensis can be explained by the Founder effect (although it should be noted that their small size is not thought to be because of this.) Could someone please correct this (if they also believe it to be incorrect)? --GameGod 19:10, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• No, this is not a reference to "rafting", but to actual deliberately constructed bamboo rafts, which is the hypothesis of the discoverers.--Pharos 10:02, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nickname

Ok, I don't know wiki very well, but someone who does should carfully look at this. I am almost certain that the discovering scientists of the fossils didn't name the things Hobbits, and objected to their being called such. Sadly the link that I think supported this is no longer available: http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3119620a10,00.html it was once a story on fark.com. Anyone available to help on this? Oh, and if I was supposed to put this at the bottom not the top, oops, as I said I'm not to good with wiki yet.

It took me a little bit to figure out whether the nickname "hobbit" was the creation of the popular press. Some of them gave citations like "the dig crew", but I didn't see anything convincing until about a third of the way down [1], where the name is used in a quotation by one of the Nature coauthors. I mention this in case anybody else has the same suspicions that I had. -- Toby Bartels 23:06, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

IMO it's an unfortunate nickname (but should get little kids world-wide excited). A-giau 03:09, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'd be interested to know why you think it's unfortunate. It seems appropriate to me; my only complaint is that it's too culturally specific. (It would be perfect if they'd been discovered in Warwickshire.) -- Toby Bartels 05:38, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Indonesia is also a fitting location for finding hobbits. Departing from Middle Earth by boat and circumnavigating Australia, one will naturally arrive in some part of Indonesia, whereupon the traveler would likely be set upon by dragons. --[[User:Eequor|ηυωρ]] 13:12, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I don't like the nickname and I don't think we should be promoting it on Wikipedia, though a mention in a section on media coverage would be justified. It merges fact and fiction in the popular consciousness and is better suited to soundbite journalism. — Trilobite (coming to you from Warwickshire!) 22:02, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Intelligence

The sample seems to be a little over half the height of modern humans, this should mean about 12.5% the body mass. Which would give it twice the brain to body ration of modern man about 4% on the following scale[2].

Species. Brain Weight as % of Body Weight

• human 2.10
• bottlenose dolphin 0.94
• African elephant 0.15
• killer whale 0.09
• cow 0.08
• sperm whale (male) 0.02
• fin whale 0.01

Which put a bit of a diiferent slant on it all.--Jirate 00:58, 2004 Oct 28 (UTC)

See Brain to body mass ratio and encephalization quotient[3]--Jirate 01:21, 2004 Oct 28 (UTC)

• Ah. So they'd be elves, not hobbits. -- The Anome 01:46, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Now, who says Hobbits are less intelligent than Men? Less intelligent than Dunedain, sure; certainly much less intelligent than Wizards (who are not Men at all in fact). But just because the Hobbits were the stupidest main characters in LotR doesn't change the fact that well-bred-but-ordinary Hobbits certainly held their own in the company of well-bred-but-ordinary Men (like the stewardic house of Gondor, or the royal house of Rohan, but not the royal house of Gondor which was Dunedain). Sure, Gandalf makes Pippin look foolish often enough, but who's to say you or I wouldn't look twice as foolish in the same circumstances (which is to say, in conversation with an angel)? -- Toby Bartels 02:34, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• Nope, as far as intelligence they were neither hobbits or elves. a good graph Since they evolved from homo erectus, I guess that means they actually got less smart, probably because brains require so many calories. --Eean 05:39, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The problem with the graph is it's relating a 1D height to a 3D volume, which would seem to be a mistake.--Jirate 13:33, 2004 Oct 28 (UTC)

Um, its a pretty common graph when you have two sets of data that relate to something else. Like PC Magazine will have one axis be the price and the other axis be the permforance of the computer, so then the closer a computers dot is to one of the corners means the computer has the more bang-for-the-buck. Not hard to understand. This graph is the same idea. More importantly, it clearly shows they didn't a body-mass ratio as high as you thought. I'm sure its talking about height and not mass (or a "3d volume" as opposed to a 2d volume I suppose) since any mass would just be a guess at this point. You decided on their mass based entirely on their height, so I don't see how you could complain. --Eean 15:10, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I wouldn't quote a computer magazine as a good example I made of how to represent numbers. I estimated based on a 50% value to make the maths easier, thats the only "mistake" I made. The real relationship is between one value and the cube of the other as no animal is restricted to just 1 dimension. Inceidentily in 4d maths, 4d objects have 4d volume, a 2d object is known as a surface.--Jirate 19:13, 2004 Oct 31 (UTC)

Why the hell are we talking about 4d math. I guess I should remember Doc, who would say "your not thinking 4th dimensionally." Anyways, I'll take Nature's word for it, that at least based on current evidence (which is to say, we hardly know crap about the brain), H. Floresiensis wasn't that smart compared to erectus and sapien. Which makes sense, given that brains need a bunch of energy, and the theory of why they are short is because they don't have much food. Being smart has a lot of advantages, everything would be smart if it was easy. --Eean 06:16, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This graph is a useful illustration of brain mass and height, but that information alone does not indicate anything about intelligence. The encephalization quotient is a ratio of masses only. Dimensions of any sort are completely irrelevant. --[[User:Eequor|ηυωρ]] 11:29, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hmm. I thought Encephalization Quotient was now regarded as at best a gross oversimplification. It has these little problems like concluding that the sparrow and mouse (and indeed any very small warm blooded animal) are enormously more intelligent than the primates and cetaceans. At any rate, if you want to take a wild guesstimate of the intelligence of H. floresiensis, absent having yet identified any of their artifacts I would think a more productive approach would be to look for primates with similar statistics. In this case, the brain pan volume turns out to be about 10% larger than the average for the chimpanzee, and the body length very similar (identical within the accuracy of the available data). So with all due caveats about the reliability of this process, from this we might conclude that these hominids would be slightly more intelligent than chimps, but not much. Securiger 15:26, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It is allegedly better to go messure the exit at the base of the skull rather then use body mass, but I can't find any site with that info. CQ is also better but that would require knowing brain anatomy.--Jirate 19:59, 2004 Oct 28 (UTC)

However, chimpanzees range from 40 - 50kg, up to twice as large as H. floresiensis, so this is not a useful comparison. --[[User:Eequor|ηυωρ]] 14:39, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Here is a link to an article that discusses their toolmaking abilities. [4] It suggests that modern people on the island copied their tools.

There's no need to try to guess the mass of H. floresiensis based on their height; the article states it was around 25kg. Especially given their height is one meter; one need only refer to the healthy body mass index range. --[[User:Eequor|ηυωρ]] 11:22, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That's good to know. Do you have any sources to back up your claims that Floresiensis and Erectus were "species that were unlikely to differ in intelligence"? Remember wikipedia isn't a place to do original research (to put it nicely). A good way to end such edit wars is to stick in a reference. --Eean 16:27, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

There is a reference; apparently the Nature article explicitly states the encephalization quotient ranges for H. erectus and H. floresiensis (see below). It is also possible to infer the ratio of the type specimen's EQ to the average EQ of H. erectus, and it is close to 1. In fact, it may be as high as 1.23, suggesting the specimen was above average intelligence. --[[User:Eequor|ηυωρ]] 16:48, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

...so you were citing an article you haven't seen. I'm sure my local library has the Nature in question by now, I should go check it out. --Eean 19:01, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Importance

Not to understate the importance of the discovery, but the statement

The discovery is considered to be the most important of its kind in recent memory.

is so vague as to be almost meaningless. Considered by whom? What kind? How recent?

• Small aside: apparently the WP term for this is "Peacock terms": Wikipedia:Avoid peacock terms. Securiger 15:26, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I don't know enough about the big picture in paleoanthropology to put the discoveries in perspective, but I am thinking in particular of the recent discovery of hundreds of fossil speciments of a new homo species (homo antecessor) in Atapuerca, Spain. — Miguel 02:59, 2004 Oct 28 (UTC)

There are two things that make this find bigger than that find:

• H. antecessor pushes the boundaries of the Homo timeline even better than H. floresiensis does (since H. sapiens still forms the recent limit). But it pushes the boundaries in the less interesting direction (that is, far from us, who are the centre of our unverse).
• These are frickin' little people, man! They're actually real!!! This is as exciting as the discovery of Troy, only with yet more universal significance. From a scientific perspective, this may only be "very important", but to humankind in general, this will be HUGE.

That said, you're right that this kind of vague claim is meaningless. Somebody should have said this, and that somebody should be cited. -- Toby Bartels 05:31, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I listened to a radio program a few minutes ago (Swedish Radio). This is a quote:

— According to my assessment, this is one of the most sensational scientific discoveries made in the last half-century. No-one could have imagined a finding like this, says Lars Werdelin, senior curator (associate professor) in paleontology at the Swedish Museum of Natural History, Stockholm, Sweden.

I bet there are people who's opinions matter more in the world of paleontology, but at least it proves that the claim made does have some support. — David Remahl 05:35, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

What with Cassini's Titan encounter it looks like a very important day, John Peel must be pissed of at missing.--Jirate 13:35, 2004 Oct 28 (UTC)

Don't forget the lunar eclipse! :-). — David Remahl 17:08, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Mythical? creatures

"The island had dwarf elephants and giant lizards"

Not only hobbits, but also dragons??? -- Toby Bartels (although I didn't think of it) 05:13, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

And oliphaunts! I just want to congratulate Wikipedia on making such a good article in one day. RickK 06:21, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)

Miniature elephants are hardly new. Islands often cause large species to become smaller (conserve energy, larger species are better at crossing long distances with less energy, and so must by necessity be smaller on islands. There's not enough space to roam to justify a large body mass. Smaller species have less deadly predators, and are able to grow to larger sizes, among other reasons.) You can find evidence of this on islands all around the world, including more mammoth bones than you can shake a stick at. 68.225.240.87 21:58, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes! My thought exactly! Compare that to a Google-search. For the record, that link produces zero results at the moment (though there are some Google News references). — David Remahl 06:46, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think the paucity of Google hits is due to the lag time involved in Google recording new pages, and this is a very new news item. RickK 07:30, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)

Yep..The database is replaced every three or four days or something like that, according to my casual observations. — David Remahl 07:33, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

According to our Flores article, the Komodo dragon can be found on Flores. Are these the giant lizards they are talking about? Can Komodos be dated back to be contemporaries of H. floresiensis? If so, I would imagine Komodos would make a dangerous predator of the poor little fellas. Dragons indeed! Securiger 15:26, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• Komodos are pretty slow and have to bask in the sun, so they are probably pretty easy to evade if you know what you're doing. I read that the Homo flores actually ate the Komodos. RickK 22:40, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)

Komodos are primarily ambush hunters (and NOT so slow in short bursts!) -- so it would be inevitable that even experienced Hobbinids would have occassionally gotten bushwhacked. So I would expect that this would make them pretty careful, slow, deliberate and observant in their movements. Which would explain their being so hard for even local villagers to run into, even on a middling one-mountain-chain island.

As for who ate whom: I'm sure a Hobbinid -- being a typical pygmy of a relatively resource-poor environment (I would guess the dry season would be the crunch-time here) -- would very much look forward to returning the favor whenever they ran across smaller komodos; and I don't see why a smart, cooperative hunter like H. Floresiensis, living among komodos for millenia, wouldn't have perfected some method of luring and killing even the bigger monitor lizards: having one of their members act as 'bait' -- the others lying in wait in their own ambush, etc...

Pazouzou 06:38, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Some of the articles state that there were other lizards on this island that were even bigger than the Komodo Dragon (and lived at the same time as the "hobbits") but have died out. The articles didn't have a name for this creature does anyone have any information on these? - Anon

• it was a related species, but somewhat larger (regular Komodo Dragons also lived there)--Pharos 07:43, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Ebu Gogo

I get zero google hits on Ebu Gogo too. It can't be a very widespread piece of myth...Where's the reference for that? I find this in the Telegraph. Can we find an independent source for this (i.e. not related to the article authors)? — David Remahl 07:10, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It will be interesting to see what they find in the DNA from the hair samples. - Anon

• This is a rather obscure, small and very isolated tribe. I'm not surprised they haven't uploaded their complete mythos to a high bandwidth web server.--Pharos 14:31, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • This is very interesting. It would be nice if we could get some harder data on this. From my reading of the abstracts in Nature, it seems that the claim of extinction 12,000 years ago is based solely on the absence of evidence from one site. Given that, the Ebu Gogo folklore might be considered prima facie evidence for a much more recent extinction (or even continued existence, given the wildness of the Flores interior.) Securiger 15:26, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • The researchers believe that the hominids in the particular site they were studying were wiped out about 12,000 years ago by a local volcanic eruption that also marks the disappearance of other species there. One of the authors has also speculated that is is possible, though "not likely", that surviving hominids of this or similar types might be found on Flores or other Southeast Asian islands.--146.245.185.20 16:58, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

There are no Web references to Ebu Gogo prior to the release of the floresensis story, but now there are several. I wonder how reliable they are? See http://www.zen19725.zen.co.uk/weblog/art_311.html, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/10/28/whuman228.xml, http://finance.news.com.au/common/story_page/0%2C4057%2C11206118%255E462%2C00.html, http://www.timboucher.com/journal/ for example. RickK 08:52, Oct 30, 2004 (UTC)

• As somewhat of a cryptozoology buff, I have been reading about the Ebu Gogo -- and the related beastie, the Orang Pendak -- for well over ten, fifteen years. It's not a recent thing. Drjon 02:55, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I have heard of this too: one of the TV documentaries documenting the discovery and controversy interviewed local peoples and their legends. I distinctly remember this name coming up. So yes you may not find many refs in english but no doubt there are some in indonesian and mentioned in this documentary. The local people do have legends and this is the name I beleive. 122.148.173.37 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 13:00, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

• I have heard of this too: one of the TV documentaries documenting the discovery and controversy interviewed local peoples and their legends. I distinctly remember this name coming up. So yes you may not find many refs in english but no doubt there are some in indonesian and mentioned in this documentary. The local people do have legends and this is the name I beleive. Mattjs (talk) 13:03, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] How did the Hobbit reach Flores?

The article says "The isolated position of Flores suggests that the ancestors of H. floresiensis may have reached the island by boat around 100,000 years ago, suggesting a hitherto unsuspected technological capability.".
- But could its ancestors have reached Flores overland when the world sea level was much lower in the Ice Age? Or by sea by chance dispersal on trees uprooted and blown out to sea in a storm?

• There has always been a deep trench between Flores and neighboring areas which were united by the low sea levels of the ice age.Italic text
• I agree. Concluding that they came by boat is wild speculation. There are many species on these islands, and obviously most of them did not arrive by boat. Speculating that H. floresiensis were boat builders before even establishing if they were tool makers is drawing a very long bow. However if the date of arrival is correct it would not have been by land-bridge, as 100,000 years ago was the middle of the Eemian interglacial era. OTOH I don't know how firm that age is at this point. Securiger 15:26, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think this Guardian article addresses most concerns. It describes the island as having been an island for a million years. "The implication was that the toolmakers, presumably Homo erectus, were capable of navigating the open sea. It is possible that once marooned on Flores, a population of Homo erectus set its own evolutionary course, morphing into Homo floresiensis." --[[User:OldakQuill|Oldak Quill]] 17:02, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This article [5] addresses the same issue, citing the discovery on Flores of what are thought to be H. erectus stone tools dating to around 800,000 years ago:

"During the ice ages, sea level was sometimes so low that Java was connected to the Asian mainland. But between Java and Flores lie three straits too deep to have dried out during glacial periods, one of which was more than 15 miles wide. "It's a pretty formidable water crossing," Morwood says. "The vast majority of animals didn't make it." But early humans did." -- ChrisO 17:26, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It's pretty obvious, generally, what happened, really. I can easily imagine these people looking over the strait at this beckoning new land and thinking constantly about getting over there. New sources of food is always a consideration. I doubt they would have even considered an actual trip, however, without knowing how to cross smaller bodies of water, such as rivers, lakes and maybe trips to nearby islands -- trips measured in yards...

How they actually accomplished it -- who really knows; but only a simple reed/stick/log/bamboo raft really makes any sense. No dugouts, please! And I think a certain point discussed in the articles is being overlooked too: were they small before they got there? The suggestion is that they weren't pygmy-ized until they got themselves isolated -- so we're not talking about "little people" building rafts here -- we're talking about "normal" H. Erectus.

Pazouzou 07:14, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Flores is on the other side of the Wallace line, which is a line which separates Autralian/New Guinean fauna from Asian fauna. The line indicates a significant water barrier unaffected by sea-level change. The line is named after Alfred Russel Wallace and there is more information and a rough map of the line on that WP page.

There are a lot of typhoons in that area, is it possible that they may have been in a tree picking fruit or hiding from a predator and a typhoon picked them up and dumped them in the ocean but closer to the next island. They then swam over to some branches and then paddled or floated to the next island and some of them survived the trip. - Anon

the Hobbit, as we all know, caught the last ship into the West. no mystery there. (*sorry*) dab (ᛏ) 23:14, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Why were they so short?

On the radio I heard that the reason why they were so short, was that isolated populations decrease in size for survival and that lack of food also is an explanation. But I have also heard that inbreed (or homozygoty) causes smaller offspring than outbreed (heterozygoty). Does anyone know?

• I reckon they just found a child's skeleton. No big deal really. Hobbits, schmobbits I say--194.167.114.2 14:18, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

• • They found five skeletons, and if they say the most complete is an adult female, thy know what they are talking about. The bones of a child have cartilaginous ends, for instance, to allow for growth. — Miguel 15:52, 2004 Oct 28 (UTC)

• There was limited food availability on the little island which drove the size reduction, the changes being allowed, but not caused by the isolation of the population. The suture pattern on the skull indicates a 30-year old.--Pharos 14:31, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
• It's not a child. Follow the links to the Nature articles. As well as fragmentary parts of seven other individuals, they found a complete skeleton and skull, with adult dentition. (The article also has a picture of the skull, which is really well preserved. It's very human-like, but it's not quite human.) Securiger 15:26, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

In all the papers I have red, they say that there has been an adaption to the food availability. But still, doesn't inbreed normally cause smaller offspring?

• • I don't see a reason why it should, but as I said isolated populations do have a general tendency to develop in unusual ways.--146.245.185.20 16:53, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Here, it is called inbreeding depression, quote from a site about breeding cats: "Robinson (1988) also stated that inbreeding depression may effect almost any feature or characteristic. This could include a decline in birth weight, lethargic kittens and poor growth rates.

Also the size of the tools they found proves that it wasn't a child. The tools were tiny and could not have been made by just one child - Anon

[edit] "See also Pygmies"

Why put links to Pygmies, Twa etc. Pygmies are modern humans, and are as unrelated to Flores man as the average European. It's like putting a link to Americans in the Neanderthal article. - Xed 11:08, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps to compare sizes? As the pygmies are the smallest non-pathological adult H. sapiens, yet H. floresiensis is only 2/3 the size. Securiger 15:26, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

OK, I'll put a link to Americans in the Neanderthal article. -Xed 15:32, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

With only one skeleton being discovered, isn't there a possibility that this is an abnoral Flores man (eg a 30 year old dwarf) and that the average Flores man was of much greater height?

Actually 6 have been found. From the skeleton you can usually tell age as various joints fuse as we get older. Atleast accroding to what I've seen on Timeteam--Jirate 14:53, 2004 Oct 28 (UTC)

• The Pygmies link does make some sense. I was just talking with my professor in a World Prehistory class and he thought, admittedly before he had seen all the evidence, that they might just be a group of very pygmified modern humans with some primitive-looking facial features like brow ridges, which are not uncommon among modern Australian aborigines.--146.245.185.20 16:50, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It is very unlikely that H. floresiensis is descended from H. sapiens. Their brains are too small. --[[User:Eequor|ηυωρ]] 12:15, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think the link is offending - delete it. Will this discovery effect the way we see short persons too - are they more prehistoric or waht???

• No, I just meant that they might be modern humans, which is my professor's idea. In that case they represent a very extreme dwarfing of Homo Sapiens, like in Pygmies or Andaman Islanders but only more so. Not they they would not be particularly genetically related to Pygmies, only adapted similarly. I don't know if this is an idea others have had, but I wouldn't be surprised if we hear such skepticism of the new species in the coming days and weeks.--146.245.185.20 17:19, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Note the recently inserted "not". The above comment was made by myself earlier, a newbie who had forgotten to log on. I hope my typo didn't confuse anyone.--Pharos 07:11, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

well, unless your professor is published, wikipedia isn't the place to be inserting his ideas. Regardless, folks are saying that Floresiensis are short due to lack of nutrients on a small island so its not much of an example of convergent evolution either. --Eean 16:35, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The current article says "Pygmy — note that they are members of the Homo sapiens species". Should this important information be put on the article about Belgians as well? - Xed 23:56, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I have to say I thought Xed was trolling or something with what appears to be a complete reversal of position after someone made an edit to satisfy the previous position; but I assumed good faith and tried to work out what the point is. I think - and please correct me if I'm wrong here Xed - that Xed feels that the reference to pygmies is somehow implying that pygmies are subhuman. Of course that is not the intention at all, and the editor who added the "note that they are" comment was perhaps trying to respond to Xed's concerns by clarifying that. But Xed is even more offended now because it should not be necessary to state that pygmies are human. To avoid further confusion, I propose the reference to pygmies be removed from "see also" and made into its own paragraph, so that the inclusion can be fully explained. Something like:

Comparison to small modern humans

H. floresiensis is tiny compared to modern humans. The estimated height for an adult H. floresiensis, at 1 m, is considerably smaller than the normal adult height of the shortest phenotypes of modern humans, such as the pygmies (< 1.5 m), Twa, Semang (1.37 m for adult women), or Andamanese (1.37 m for adult women). They were also considerably shorter than the typical adult height for the most common form of pathological dwarfism, achondroplasia (1.2 m).

only better written. Would that satisfy everyone? Securiger 01:19, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

That's so much better. Though I think pygmies prefer to be called Bayaka (which refers to the group not just by their height), but i'm not sure if that's a term used by all pygmies in all regions, and "pygmy" does seem to be the common term. --Pengo 11:19, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Pygmies are one of several groups of humans (the others that I know of are Eskimoes and Gypsies) that humans in general find natural to classify as a group, while the groups that they themselves identify with are smaller (Bayaka, Inuit, Romany, for example); with the result that the only name for the entire group is imposed by foreigners, generally considered derogatory, and insensitive to the nature of the relevant culture. My advice: Never call anybody "Pygmy", "Eskimo", or "Gypsy" if you know a more specific term that applies to that person. (In live conversation, don't take the risk: ask. But this last bit is only theoretical; I have never met a Pygmy, Eskimo, or Gypsy.) -- Toby Bartels 23:25, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Were they stocky or slender?

Do we know if HEF was stocky (like a hobbit or a modern human dwarf), or slender? I'm not sure how to visualize a 3-foot human. The Singing Badger 17:58, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I wonder if we can have the artist's impression that's been splashed all over the newspapers on here as fair use. This would be helpful for people wanting to visualise our new friends. To answer your question they appear to be quite slender, hairier than us sapiens folk but walking fully upright and not like a chimpanzee, nor a pygmy, nor a dwarf human. — Trilobite (Talk) 22:09, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

If the same artist's impression has appeared in numerous different newspapers, then I'd have thought we could claim fair use - MPF 11:56, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I of course have now put a version of the above in.--Pharos 07:07, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Natural Selection

BBC article stated that when large mammals that originated from a large contintent migrate, or become trapped on a smaller land mass, natural selection favours the small, and the mammals evolve into smaller versions of their ancestors. Should this be mentioned here? (explains small size of Homo floresiensis and the dwarf elephants. Astrotrain 18:51, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] "The artist's impression"

Most so called artist's impressions of prehumans have black skin (I am white myself). How come? Isn't black skin developed from white (i e non-colored)? ANSWER: No! It is the other way around. White people have mutations that inhibit pigement formation. If you live in a place with relatively little sunlight, you can (obviously) be quite happy with such a mutation, in fact it caan help you form vitamin D in your skin. But in a very sunny place (like Africa, where all modern humans came from) lack of skin pigmentation is very deleterious. It is, in fact, a genetic disease. the first Europeans were probably black; their descendants lived through the Ice Age in tiny groups, and loss of skin pigmentation was fixed in the population.

Here's a link that could perhaps be interesting Becoming human, or perhaps better elsewhere. It contains a lot of info about human origin, with lots of artist's impressions too. Unfortunatly it doesn't yet have anything about our hobbit.

Some people believe that the white skin was developed from black skin. Black skin is the natural skin colour that appears on humans in Africa, the mother continent of all humans. Npc 12:08, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The reason I asked was that I was light blond when I was a child, and now I have reddish dark brown hair. Therefore I think the natural development is from non-pigmentation to full. At least from an individual point of view. But still, the proof for evolution, isn't it that embryoes of mammals looks like one another, and that we from there develop in different directions? What says that my european ancestors were black when they left Africa? What if everyone where white, and that the ones who remained adapted to protect the skin from the sun, and became black after that? After all, it is just pigment... There should be more or better prooves for depicing the prehumans as black, aren't there? And hairy? Embryoes and fetuses aren't hairy, and their development are the proof for evolution..?

Dude, read the article on skin colour, especially the paragraphs at the bottom. Human skin is distinguished by its potential to evolve darker or lighter depending on the climate of the area in which a community lives. Even if our earliest, hair-covered ancestors in Africa had pale skin, they would have evolved darker skin once they began to lose their body hair, long before they left Africa. The Singing Badger 18:23, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the link, it was very interesting, but I still doesn't think it makes sense. What says that they were hairy? Aren't worms less developed than scaly snakes or hairy mammals? The way i see it - probobly wrong? - fur has to be developed from naked skin. We aren't developed from monkeys, but instead our ancestors are more closely related than we are to non-mammals - right?

Fur developed from naked skin, but that was millions of years ago. Then humans evolved and the fur lost its evolutionary edge, so now we have less hair. Humans developed from furry mammals, there is little/no controversy about that. — David Remahl 10:59, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"I was light blond when I was a child, and now I have reddish dark brown hair. Therefore I think the natural development is from non-pigmentation to full." ← this is an example of the theory that Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny, i.e. that the development of an organism exactly mirrors the evolutionary development of the species. This theory is wrong. All humans have dark skinned (human) ancestors. If you divide humans into a dozen or so racial groups, using DNA testing to measure relateness (not looks alone), you will find every "race" will have some or all members with dark skin. White skin is the exception, not the rule. Similiarly lactose intolerance is also the normal condition for humans. --Pengo 06:29, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, now I can go on with my studying. (But I never thought that we are decendants from reptiles - I thought our ancestors were more childish but that's another and long story).

Interesting that I've never read this anywhere -- but it's pretty obvious to me that mankind lost its body hair directly as a result of its mastery of fire -- which is also the basis of mankind's spreading out from the tropics (and, away from the warmth of the hearth, the need for hide coverings to replace the lost fur subsequently developed; and the timing makes a whole lot of sense too). For that matter, I also haven't read anywhere something else which makes sense to me: that the taming of fire -- which allowed cooking -- was the direct "cause" of the shrinking prognathism of the jaw and teeth ('cause' in the sense that cooked food immediately removed one hard evolutionary pressure: the need to select for powerful jaws with which to consume hard -- unsoftened, unboiled -- food such as roots, tubers, nuts, etc.). Fire absolutely has had a fundamental, integral and intimate effect on our very biology like no other technique. It is our very measure as a species. Hell -- fire has even gotten H. sapiens sapiens out of the Solar System... Quite the discovery, fire!!

 ;P

And seeing this small/modern-jawed hominid, I almost immediately think: of course they had fire.

And so it appears.

Another question for me has always been: how quickly and in what manner did H. erectus shed his fur (I'm assuming that H. erectus was always a lot hairer than most modern humans)? And for that matter: I understand that the need for dark skin is directly related to how bare the skin is under direct sunlight/high UV-ray load -- so rhinos, elephants and hominids would converge on the same dark skin-color. But then, why are bonobos and gorillas dark (all of them?), spending their entire lives in forest cover? And why are chimpamzees and orangutans not?

A mystery to me (send in the baboons..!)

 ;P

Pazouzou 05:44, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Not a dwarf but a microcephalic H.sapiens

I have published the following in "Sunday Mail" (Adelaide, Australia) on 31 October 2004, p 91 and I stand by it. The "other 5-7 individuals" talked about are just small fragments of bone and some teeth that do not allow firm conclusions about their brain size or exact stature, beyond saying that bodies were rather small which is fairly normal for many tropical zone people like pygmies. Andamanese etc.

WHY THE ‘HOBBITT’ MAY NOT BE A NEW SPECIES OF HUMANS

Three days ago the world was stunned by the announcement of a discovery of a new species of humans who survived until, perhaps, historical times. A skeleton of diminutive person was unearthed in Liang Bua limestone cave on the Indonesian island Flores by an Indonesian-Australian team of scientists. In the same cave were found small fragments of skeletons of a few other humans, sophisticated stone tools and bones of animals that were apparently hunted and eaten by inhabitants of the cave. Occupation of the cave extended from over 38 thousand years (ka) ago to 13 ka. During that time surrounding islands and Australia were already settled by people looking like modern humans. The discovery has been made by researchers of excellent professional reputation and published in the leading scientific journal “Nature”. The skeleton belonged to an adult of short stature, around 105 cm, that is equal to that of shortest women among modern pygmies. The most astounding feature, however, is the size of its braincase- mere 380 mililitres (= a stubby bottle of beer’s volume), less than half of the size of the smallest brains of intellectually normal modern people, and clearly below the minimum for even the oldest humans who lived 1-2 million years ago. The face attached to this tiny braincase, however, fits comfortably within normal human size range. This discovery shatters many long-cherished theories: brain size can no longer be seen as indicative of the level of intelligence, vastly different human species co-existed until very recent times, fairy tales of hobbits, elfs, gnomes and the like become true. It is so amazing that many scholars from around the globe are uncomfortably grappling with its consequences, while others wholeheartedly embrace it. It is not the first time that a breaktrough in our understanding of human evolution was caused by a single discovery. When the first Neandertal was unearthed in mid-19th century, leading scientists became deeply divided: some accepted the discovery while others tried to dismiss it as a modern skeleton that was severely altered by diseases. Today we know that it was a genuine early human skeleton. On the other hand, a discovery of the Piltdown man in the early 20th century turned out to be a fraud inadvertently accepted as genuine by many reputable scholars. Hence the discovery in Flores needs to be carefully examined. Last Thursday, when I read reports in “Nature” I started going through all I learned from studying human evolution for 32 years and from describing and measuring thousands of skeletons excavated by archaeologists in Europe, America, Africa and Australia. The Liang Bua skeleton did not fit comfortably into my experience: small, but still not really dwarfed, stature, normal face and abnormally small brain – a strange combination at any stage of human evolution. I obtained from the “Nature” website measurements of the Liang Bua skeleton meticulously published there by discoverers. Dimensions of the face, nose and jaws were not significantly different from those of modern humans, but the measurements of the braincase fell a long way below the normal range. The bell rang in my head. I remembered reading a report of a 4 ka old (Minoan period) skull from Crete. This skull has been identified as that of an individual with a growth anomaly called microcephaly (=small brain). This well known condition has multiple causes and affects individuals to a varying degree. Its most severe congenital form (primordial microcephalic dwarfism – PMD) leads to death in childhood. Milder forms of microcephaly allow its sufferers to survive to adulthood though they cause some level of mental retardation. My statistical comparison of 15 head and face dimensions of the Liang Bua specimen with those of the Minoan microcephalic shows that there is not a single significant difference between the two skulls though one is reputedly that of the “new species of humans”, the other a member of sophisticated culture that preceded classical Greek civilisation. Deeper down in the Liang Bua cave a forearm bone, radius, was discovered. Its reported length 210 mm corresponds to stature of 151-162 cm depending on method of reconstruction. This is a stature of many modern women, and some modern men, by no means of a “dwarf”. Thus, until more skeletons of the purported “new species” are discovered, I will maintain that a well known pathological condition was responsible for the peculiar appearance of the skeleton so aptly described in “Nature” and that we are still a single rational species.

(Prof) Maciej Henneberg Head, Department of Anatomical Sciences, Medical School, University of Adelaide

Including "others tried to dismiss [the Neanderthal] as a modern skeleton that was severely altered by diseases" in your article may be an unfortunate decision. Is that not your claim about the H. floresiensis skeleton? --[[User:Eequor|ηυωρ]] 14:31, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"While there are stone tools dated as far back as 840,000 years ago, no fossils of large-bodied ancestors have ever been found" on Flores, Brown said. "There is some possibility [Homo floresiensis] arrived on the island small-bodied." [6]

It would seem awfully unlikely. We don't find a whole lot of skulls from 12,000 years, whats the chance that the one we do find has a genetic problem. Basically your saying that among a group of skeletons shorter then what had previously been found (I'll buy that thats not a sign of a new species) we get screwed by also finding the only skull from a freak. Wikipedia should report on any controversy as it gets into scientific lit, which I'm sure we'll see some of. --Eean 16:52, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Aren't all conclusions in the field paleoanthropology a kind of induction_(philosophy)?

Yes, exactly. I hope the 'Sunday Mail' is some sort of Australian New York Post, I'm doubt they would print such raw speculation in any credible US paper. --Eean 18:57, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Scientists who publish their findings in newspapers usually do so because the findings are not strong to pass scrutiny by other knowledgable scientists (as opposed to the lay people who edit newspapers). Henneberg's view that he has refuted a carefully reviewed paper is absurd.

My problem with the microcephaly theory is this: There are multiple skeletons and bones recovered in the cave dated from ~12,000 to 90,000 years old. The skeletons range from adolescent to ~30yo adult. Microcephaly frequently brings with it mental retardation, quadrapeligia, impaired motor activity, and many other physical problems. it is normally a severe to moderate disability. It seems very unlikely that a family with history of such potentially serious medical complications would survive and flourish in a harsh jungle for 4000 generations. Since Homo floresiensis doesn't appear to have claws or fangs, or a prehensile tail, or be able to climb trees better than modern humans, it stands to reason that they had to make tools and use cooperative hunting to survive. The evidence of tools and slaughtered animals in the cave seems to support this. The idea of Flores man having microcephaly seems to violate basic Darwinian principles. Also, they haven't found any "normal" h.sapiens bones in the cave, so this would appear to be a prehistoric leper colony of some sort? It just doesn't seem plausible.

[edit] Modern phrenology

I see phrenology is alive and well in paleoanthropology, judging by the incredulity expressed about the possibility of H. floresiensis having intelligence. --[[User:Eequor|ηυωρ]] 11:13, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Is the correlation of brain size across species with intelligence phrenology? For the record, the Nature article gives the EQ of H. floresiensis type specimen as 2.5-4.6 (probably on the higher side if one assumes lean body mass), H. sapiens as 5.8-8.1, H. erectus/ergaster as 3.3-4.4, H. Habilis 3.6-4.3. So, there is certainly no higher EQ among this group than erectus. But perhaps it would be better to say they are comparable, especially if we assume lean bodies (b/c of tropical environment). Also note the EQ is way below modern humans, whose technology they are supposed to be using. While relative brain size is quite significant, I think most would agree that absolute brain size is also of some importance. Although the importance of absolute versus relative brain size can sometimes be exxagerated, I think it would be a gross exxageration to call this "phrenology".--Pharos 12:40, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Oh, real values! Very interesting. However, the EQ of the type specimen can be calculated exactly; it is 1.23 times larger than the average EQ of H. erectus (brain has shrunk by 2.59 times, body has shrunk by 3.17). Note that this value corresponds to the top of the given range, which must represent all available samples, not just the type specimen. (How can a single sample have a range of EQ values?)

Since the average EQ of H. floresiensis (3.55) is comparable to that of H. erectus (3.85), there is no support for any idea that it might lack intelligence. Its tool use demonstrates it did not; the article should neither express surprise nor suggest that it had a level of intelligence different from H. erectus.

Especially, the article must not in any way make the suggestion that brain size alone determines intelligence. This is what my use of phrenology refers to. That is a bogus, misleading claim which persists in the public imagination despite better knowledge; the sooner it is eradicated, the better.

By the way, it's rude to make a blanket revert without attempting to incorporate new information, and it's confusing why you would do so despite your admission that the EQs of H. floresiensis and H. erectus are comparable. --[[User:Eequor|ηυωρ]] 14:04, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Forgive me if my revert was considered rude; I am a relative newbie and had never reverted anything before. As to the confusion over the similarity of EQ of H. floresiensis and H. erectus, you must forgive me that, at that instant I remembered the exact numbers slightly wrong. The uncertainty in the EQ value for the type specimen is due to the uncertainty in the estimated mass. The great surprise is not that the tool set was comparable to that of H. erectus, the tool set discovered is comparable to that of H. Sapiens, modern humans.--Pharos 14:58, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I see. Pity I can't read the article myself. The range would be easier to accept for an individual if it was narrower; it suggests that at least one of the endpoints must represent an extremely underweight or extremely overweight subject. A reasonable range for body mass ought be near 20 - 25kg.

I hope the researchers are able to find evidence of a widespread culture. The species' tool complexity is very intriguing. --[[User:Eequor|ηυωρ]] 16:30, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Would the culture of this species be Florestan?

• They be seem to tend to name these artifact patterns after the site of first discovery. I suspect this be would called the "Liang Buan" culture, after the cave. Not that it matters much anyway.--Pharos 10:15, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Austrolomelanesid or Australomelanesid?

Teuku Jacob is quoted saying Austrolomelanesid. Did he really say that or did he say Australomelanesid? Nurg 23:56, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Google yielded http://abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s1236864.htm as a non-wikipedia source for Austrolomelanesid.

I still find it hard to believe he wasn't misquoted. "Australo-" means southern. What does "austrolo-" mean? Nurg 06:04, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Brain-mass minus spinal-cord-mass versus encephalization quotient

The discovery that the brain-size increases with the surface-area of an animal is great and all, but I remember reading in an Issue of Natural History from the 1980s an article by Stephen Jay Gould where he noted encephalization quotient is good and all, but he observed that animals with small brains for the size of their bodies have brains with about the same size as their spinal cords. He wrote about this in "Bligh's Bounty." http://web.archive.org/web/20010709234346/http://yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au/~tzvi/GOULD.html He figures that all other things being equal (which they never are), the intelligence of an animal should be proportional to the mass of the brain minus the mass of spinal cord. ¿Does anyone know the brain-mass minus spinal-cord-mass for Homo floresiensis?

-- Ŭalabio 22:42, 2004 Dec 4 (UTC)

[edit] Did they live in the 1700's?

I jst saw an article on the norwegian newspaper VG's website that some scientists beleve homo florensis lived up to the 1700's. It also states that the local folks on the island says that they have seen small people in the jungle that resebles homo florensis. I didnt find any article about this on cnn.com or bbc.com

http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=257763
Pyramide 12:09, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

There are the legends, sure, that they lived all the way to when the Dutch came (I have no idea when that is). This theory is quite probable. Check out Henry Gee's article, it will say. [7]

[edit] External links removal

Hello. Please check this edit. It is about the removal of an external link to my site that I first inserted in October. I insert only links that I truly believe are informational and I have no interest to insert any bogus links. I truly believe that my report is informational. Please explain why it was considered inappropriate and give me link to external links policies that you may have. NSK 03:51, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'm not the one who removed it this time (I did remove it during a cleanup back in Nov. or Dec?). It seems that the info provided on your site is very limited and adds virtually nothing to the article - it is redundant info. Now, as for spam - it probably doesn't qualify unless you have added links to your site to several other articles in an effort to gain free advertizing. Don't know about that without checking your contribs. OK - just took a quik look at your contrib list and it does look suspicious. But, that said, the fact that you insist on posting a link to your own site with no real additional info suggests that you are trying to get that free exposure. Because you inserted the link it appears bogus to me and I support the user who deleted the link. Vsmith 04:47, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hi. Thank you for responding. If you think my report should contain more information you are free to post a comment and tell me what you think is missing. I have no problem if you believe that my report is inappropriate because it has little info, but I disagree that it is spam. My intention is not to post bogus links. To show you that I really don't want to post spam, I promise you that I will ask for permission before posting any more links to my site. I only insert links that I truly believe to be informational and beneficial to the reader. Adam Bishop also removed from FSFE other links that I have included in my stories at Slashdot: See [8] and [9]. Slashdot.org found my report on FSFE useful and published it, but when I included these links (pointing to my reports at Wikinerds) they were removed by Adam Bishop. I really would like to know whether there is any official policy that I can read on this matter. Please note that I don't want to spam Wikipedia and actually I have started re-licensing some of my CC articles and posting them under GFDL on Wikipedia, see for example Zsync. NSK 05:17, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The links were right to be removed. NSK clearly has an agenda here, and I suggest that he/she reads Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not with regards to advertising and self-promotion. It's bad enough when someone comes along and blankets articles with links to a particular website. On top of that, I've actually looked at a few of the "reports", and they just contain the same information that the Wikipedia articles contain, except a lot less (see the "report" linked in this article, for instance, and compare it to the WP article). Then on top of that, you're posting links to your own site. That's three strikes. If you (NSK) want to contribute, just add information directly to the article instead of inserting a link to your website that contains redundant info with respect to the article here. CryptoDerk 07:10, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)

Though I will not give any opinion on whether this link is interesting to be cited or not, I gave my opinion on NSK as a contributor here : http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2005-January/018281.html. I do not follow your contributions on en NSK, however, I do follow your contributions on the ml, and I think you need to be lighter on references to your website. Thanks.SweetLittleFluffyThing 07:26, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I've removed two more links, but the news.com.au link only because it didn't work.

Generally speaking, I don't see the use of providing links to articles, which don't provide more informations than our article. And even more, they actually harm the reader, as he may stop clicking on the external links after having foud x links which were unhelpfull.

Blogs, portals, and web discussion boards aren't encyclopedic, with very, very few exceptions. So they can be deleted at sight.

The article now has nine in-line external links, which should be checked as well. I'm undecided about the two in some Indonesian language. They don't provide much insight for a non-speaker but seem to be important references for an important POV.

Pjacobi 10:37, 2005 Jan 13 (UTC)

Added a link to the lateline video with Richard Roberts. Does anyone have more multimedia links?--203.206.237.112 11:19, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] New user edit

This is indeed a swell article. Very impressive job, especially by comparison with other human evolution articles. However, material under the subheds Reaction and Access Controversy is just plain wrong. Perhaps publicity about the find made the Australian scientists appear too prominent, but it is simply not true that no Indonesian scientists were given credit. The main Nature paper (Brown et al) had seven (7) authors; FIVE of them are Indonesians based at the Indonesian Center for Archaeology in Jakarta. One is Thomas Sutikna, leader of the team that made the find. The senior author is Rokus Awe Due, who examined the type specimen's teeth and found that they were very worn, indicating that the bones were not those of a child (as the team had originally thought.) The second paper (Morwood et al), on the dating, has 14 authors (!). Eight are indeed Australians, but 3 are Indonesians, and the others are from Canada, the Netherlands, and Scotland--reflecting the reality that paleontological dating is a worldwide enterprise. Jacob says the naming was done without Indonesian consent, but we have only his word for that. The Indonesian scientists actually involved in the dig have not commented either way. The simplest way to deal with these errors is simply to cut the editorializing. I haven't attempted that because I'm a wiki newbie and haven't a clue how. -- tamtammy 4.249.111.129 00:52, 21 Jan 2005

Moved to end and cleaned up other minor edit glitches by 4.249.111.129 -Vsmith 02:08, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Case characteristics"

We've read alot of summaries of the article first published by Nature (magazine) but this is still a pretty thin case, philosophically speaking. We've also read critics and creationist-responds. But what _do_ we lack? Data. I haven't done my proper "research" on the web yet, because there are way too many "bogus" or "infoless" pages still out there regarding the case, but I really get the conspiracy-vibe due to the restrains on info. Of course, the same thing happened with the platypus (Ornithorhynchus anatinus). So, does anyone know when more substantial research might be published? - Sigg3.net 10:45, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Update on Bones

The bones have still not been returned as of February 12th, 2005; it would appear the Indonesian has reneged on returning them. I updated the article accordingly. Titanium Dragon 06:44, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Good news! It seems that the bones are slowly comming back! I just read on the BBC[10] site. There was a link to this at the bottom of the article, but it keeps disapearing and reapearing! I'm kinda new but that seems very weird.--209.202.90.207 04:42, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Missing information

This article neclects to state:

• when the first discovery took place
• how we know that the specimen is female and that she died at age 30

— Timwi 15:05, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Theological/religious reactions?

Have there been any public statements on this find from any theological or religious bodies, particularly those who believe in creationism? I think their statements would be interesting... --Jfruh 23:36, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I don't see why creationists or any other religious entities would have any special views on Homo floresiensis separate from their views on, say, Neanderthals or Homo erectus. Nik42 01:09, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

According to creationists, all hominid fossils are either deformed/diseased individuals or fakes (they love Piltdown Man). This is known as pathological skepticism and is essentially psychological denial. Obviously, they are delighted by the controversy around H. Floresensis and enthusiastically side with those who think it's not a new species. Of course, whether H. Floresensis is a new species or not, is irrelevant to the veracity of Evolution.--Oscar Bravo 10:22, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] First determined to be a new species

Article says "The fossil was first determined to be that of a new species in March of 2005." Wasn't the species described in 2004? Am I misunderstanding the process of "determining a species"? Nurg 06:10, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

from the article:"Homo erectus, thought to be the immediate ancestor of H. floresiensis, was approximately the same size as another descendant species, modern humans."

ok, I don't get it. What exactly is the relation of Homines erecti, florienses and sapientes? It was my understanding that sapiens is not descended from erectus, but that erectus was a species contemporary to early sapiens. Now, is florienses descended from erectus, does that make it a subspecies of erectus, and is sapiens descended from erectus or not? dab (ᛏ) 20:40, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• That's my line. Homo sapiens was an offshoot of Homo erectus, but H. erectus didn't just die off after that. H. floresiensis is also descended from H. erectus. It's not a subspecies, but very much its own species.--Pharos 21:00, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"Described" is a specific scientific procedure in which various (often bone) measurements are taken from various individual specimens, locations are recorded, etc. When this data is compared to data from other species and subspecies, then it can be determined if the newly described entity is a new species, a subspecies, or that it should be placed within a given species or subspecies. So H. floresiensis was described in 2004, but was given species status in March of 2005. (One might say, "My new home was built in 2004. I moved into my new home in March 2005." However, prehaps it wasn't "my" new home in 2004 when it was built... because I hadn't bought it yet.) - UtherSRG (talk) 20:14, September 6, 2005 (UTC)

• The description/publication of the species was the October 2004 paper in Nature. The March 2005 paper about the brain may have convinced some of the unconvinced, but it did not have a special status as a "determination" (not a technical term I don't think) that the finds were a new species. --Cam 14:32, September 7, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Contemporaneous?

The article says, "It is thought to have been contemporaneous with modern humans (Homo sapiens) on the Indonesian island of Flores." That suggests it lived on Flores at the same time modern humans lived on Flores. Is that what's intended? If so, isn't that too controversial to be worded like that? On the Ebu Gogo page it says the first evidence of modern humans is 11,000 years ago, and H. floresiensis might have gone extinct 12,000 years ago. --Allen 03:30, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

The article on Humans says 200,000 years ago. TomDS 22:34, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

No, I was talking about when modern humans got to Flores, not when they evolved. --Allen 04:26, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Books on the subject?

Are there any books, as of yet, on the subject of Homo Floresiensis? I am doing a project work on the possibility in the survival of other homo species until this day, and it would be nice with some other sources than just the Internet as for H. Floresiensis. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.209.61.97 (talk • contribs) 00:06, 6 February 2006 (UTC).

I have just written a book that uses Homo floresiensis as one example, among several others, of how island dwarfs can be generated via a simple hormonal mechanism. The book is called, Rhythms of Life: Thyroid Hormone and the Origin of Species, by Susan J. Crockford. See www.rhythmsoflife.ca or www.trafford.com. The book describes an utterly scientific and fully testable new theory for evolutionary change (including domestication), based on my Ph.D. dissertation but put into simpler language for a wider audience. I also discuss the tranformation of wolves to dogs, brown bears to polar bears, and the evolution of the entire human lineage. It's a revolutionary new concept that has the enthusiastic support of many scientific colleagues worldwide: it doens't violate any basic Darwinian principles, it simply provides a mechanism to explain how speciation actually works, something that no one else has done yet. The table of contents and prologue are available for viewing on both sites listed above. See what you think. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RhythmsofLife (talk • contribs) 16:23, 11 March 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Controversy

I thought perhaps the 'Reaction' section somewhat understates the impact of the rather heated discussion within the scientific community. I'd think that a general 'Controversy' section, with a sub-heading regarding access to the original skeleton, would be more appropriate. 68.43.120.236 05:11, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mixing Ebu Gogo and facts

I suggest more clear separation of Ebu Gogo mythology from archeological find. Even archeologists consider that Ebu Gogo were based on real H.f. and survived until 19. century as a mere fantastic possibility. These tales were traditionaly attributed to monkeys.

In a similar vein, I removed the discussion of unnamed scientists taking reports of Orang Pendek seriously (not to mention the discoveries of hair and footprints, etc.). If you're going to send us off in search of Bigfoot, please at least do us the courtesy of providing references. Speculations attributed to anonymous scientists hardly constitute verifiable sources.

[edit] A Report in Science disputes finding a new species

This should be added in.

Here is the link. http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,19187869-2,00.html

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/312/5776/999b?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=homo+Homo+floresiensis&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT

I should have added the link to the reference, sorry. WayeMason 12:50, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

According to a press release from Penn State today (8/21/06), their conclusion is that "The skeletal remains found in a cave on the island of Flores, Indonesia, reported in 2004, do not represent a new species as then claimed but are some of the ancestors of modern human pygmies who live on the island today, according to an international scientific team." http://live.psu.edu/story/19059 Anastasi 23:20, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Microencephaly is Micrencephaly?

Wikipedia has an entry for Micrencephaly, which sounds the same as Microencephaly refered to in the article. Can anyone confirm this? GameKeeper 19:43, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Just to make it more confusing there is also Microcephaly (no -en-) is this related? GameKeeper 19:49, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

They say that, instead, it appears to be a modern human suffering from microencephaly, a genetic disorder that results in small brain size and other defects. Other researchers also have proposed this explanation.

Source: FOX News - Sigg3.net 16:46 07 June 2006 (UTC)

Microcephaly is the only Wikipedia article (now; I'm not sure about two years ago). Micrencephaly and Microencephaly redirect there, and the page makes no mention of either name, so I assume they are misspellings. However, I'll leave them up in the article until somebody can confirm that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.187.197.2 (talk) 23:10, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Locator map Flores islands

I had a hard time finding the islands in the map because I'm colorblind and probably other people too. It would be nice if this could be changed (e.g. so yellow or some other color). Thanks! -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 11:29, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Joelr31

I don't know if it is possible to report this guy for being an intellectual bully, but I would like to do so. If all the evidence points to Homo floresiensis not being a new species, why put up such a fight? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.199.31.128 (talk • contribs) .

From looking at the edit history of the article, it looks like you are trying to be the bully. - UtherSRG (talk) 16:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe that Joel is being bully, but rather that new people are coming to wikipedia, who have never edited here before (check the edit history), and who are trying to push a particular point of view. See WP:NPOV. Joel and I were involved in keeping this article as a featured article several months ago, and as you will see there, one of the biggest complaints about the article was that it was too pro-species, given the state of the current scientific controversy. As you will see, if you read the discussion there, other experienced editors came to the conclusion that our edits did a great deal to make the article neutral, and that it deserved to stay a featured article, as an example of the best that wikipedia has. If there are new articles that have come out since we did our work on the article, please point us to them, and we will gladly work with you to incorportate new data into the article. If not, stop trying to push particular point of view on wikipedia. As a side note, I think that both of you (151.199.31.128 and HREaton, assuming you're not the same person) are currently engaged in edit warring and have probably gone beyond the three revert rule. Edhubbard 17:08, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi I just want to my two cents in. First off I'm not a scientist, but the evidence is fairly overwelming and convincing that the initial discoveres of LB1 and Homo floresiensis jumped the gun and that there were indeed diseased pygmies. 1001CaspianNights 29 November 2006 (UTC)

If it's so overwhelming, perhaps you can provide a source? --Saforrest 04:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

"It showed that we really could demonstrate with a specimen that [microcephaly] could explain the Hobbit's small brain" - Ann MacLarnon of Roehampton University, UK, has discovered the skull of a microcephalic in the vaults of London's Royal College of Surgeons with a brain that matches that of the Hobbit for size. Personally I think Brown and Morwood are pushing the new species idea because they are pushing some agenda.

Also, this is an interesting website. http://www.beepworld.de/members87/alfredczarnetzki/homoflorensis.htm

This report should be taken into consideration also. This is an actual report posted online recently from Roehampton University in London. It is entitled "Scientists scuttle claims that “Hobbit” fossil is a new hominid". http://www.roehampton.ac.uk/news/hobbitfossil.html

-- Zappa12 09:01, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Current Expeditions

What is being done currently regarding the extraction of further specimens from Flores and other isolated Islands? Are any other scientists looking for more specimens or any other forms of evidence other than the current 9 individuals and the tools found with them? B. from SEMO150.201.33.67 20:41, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bias in this article

This is preposterous. "In response, several paleontologists have criticized the findings by claiming that the scientists came to incorrect conclusions about skull structure and mistakenly attributed the height of Homo floresiensis to microencephaly. Almost ALL the articles coming out on this subject are claiming that it is a vocal minority that is sticking with the new species claim. I will continue to furnish evidence in support. DMayer

It's not preposterous. The debate is continuing, and it's clear that the issue is far from resolved. Both sides have exaggerated the certainty of their position. But Dietrich, if you are going to edit the article please try to understand that we need to have grammatical sentences. You tend to edit sections so that they no longer make grammatical sense. You have twice edited this paragraph to delete a reference and produce non-sentences. The first sentence is not a sentence. The second is actually several separate sentences connected by commas:

In 2005, a computer-generated model of the skull of Homo floresiensis. The scan had controversial results, the supporters of the new species claim said that it provided further support that the controversial specimens from Indonesia do indeed represent a new species, to the hobbit skeptics it showed signs of pathology. These results continued to be debated.

Paul B 00:02, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Your edits are becoming increasingly problematic. In this edit [11] you have changed the words of quotation. This is wholly unacceptable. Please desist. Paul B 12:43, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Dietrich, you have deleted a whole referenced section without giving any edit summary, or explanation here. You have answered my queries on your talk page with the following on mine, "I don't know where you are getting alot of this "info" that Homo floresiensis is in fact a new species. First off anything written by Tabitha M. Powledge should be looking at atleast twice. Not a reputable source, in fact a downright distortion of the facts." I have footnoted the information to reputable publications. Tabitha M. Powledge, whoever she may be, does not feature in them, as you could have found out if you had read them. It is increasingly difficult to treat your edits as good faith. Paul B 22:24, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I have looked up Tabitha M. Powledge (even though I hadn't used or referred to her). She seems to be a respectable science journalist. What is the problem with her? Paul B 01:59, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible update

Someone added a link to this story to Hobbit. Clearly, it belongs here instead, but I wasn't sure whether it presents new information or is merely rehashing what's been discussed before. Regular editors of this page can decide whether to add it (and the information contained in the story) or not. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:16, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. It is new. IT's a new study by Dean Falk supporting the conclusions of her 2005 study. Paul B 08:41, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for adding it in so quickly. I just caught this story today in my news scan, and thought that I would come and add it in. Glad to see it's already here, although I may add a sentence or two detailing how Falk argues against the microcephaly account. Edhubbard 15:31, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Misleading picture

That monkey-like illustration by Mieke Roth is severly misleading. This was the most recently extinct human species, and some argue conspesific with modern humans – in other words: very much like modern humans apart from their size. Even Australopithecines bore more resemblance to modern humans than that. That image needs to be removed, preferably to be replaced with a more appropriate one. --Anshelm '77 10:11, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed and removed. - UtherSRG (talk) 13:50, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Not only was it misleading I believe it is wrongly tagged. I doubt the image is free. Joelito (talk) 14:49, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

The reconstruction appears to be based on a new theory about the features of Homo floresiensis. The new theory says that it was a quadruped based on the fact that the head of the humerus stands almost straight on top of the humerus itself, instead of twisted and with an angle. That theory is also supported by the long arms, the australopithecus-like hipbones, and the fact that the bones are very symmetrical. Dionyseus 04:04, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

More information about Bergh's theory here. Apparently other scientists think Bergh's theory is silly. Dionyseus 04:51, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "confirmation of species status"

OK, I don't want a revert war, but I'll just explain why I changed back. I don't think we can reasonably say that species status was confirmed in 2005, but rather that it was expected that the 2005 paper would lead to confirmation (i.e. acceptance by the scientific community), but it did not. Since the controversy is ongoing, I don't think we can say with confidence even now that the species was confirmed in 2005 or that it has been in 2007. As far as I am aware the dissenters have not accepted species status. Of course, if the phrasing is considered to be clumsy, the same point might well be made more elegantly. Paul B 09:39, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I didn't notice this comment, or else I would have replied here first without making the compromise in the article. If you wish to re-revert to the original version pending the resolution of any discussion here, then feel free.

I take your point about "acceptance by the scientific community", but I don't think that is the strict definition of confirmation. I would argue that the 2005 paper did confirm the findings of the original proposal in that it was a "corroborative statement or piece of evidence". [12] Of course, the waters were muddied by further analysis, but to say the 2005 paper did not confirm the original findings is somewhat misleading, I feel. I have no agenda to promote the species argument over the microcephaly argument, I just think - as you do - that it could be more elegantly written. I have made a compromise in stating the 2005 paper "supported" the original proposal (thereby avoiding the contested "confirmation" completely). What do you think? Rockpocket 17:42, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

please review this article.

[13] has this "species" entered crypto status? Some thing 23:20, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

This is just another second, or third, or fourth hand report about the counter-arguments from Jacob and Martin that are already included in the article. There's nothing new here. Until there is new data, or at the very least, new analysis of the existing specimens, it's premature to go deciding things in favor of the Jacob/Martin counterarguments. Edhubbard 13:04, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Bones Discovered(?)

Were there new bones discovered in the same cave that were identical to the first? I only heard about this Homo floresiensis the other night for the first time, on a documentary I watched - and they said the fact that about seven different sets of bones were found, all with the same skull size, made it incredibly unlikely (virtually impossible) that they were all microcephalics. Maybe I misunderstood, or the documentary was incorrect. --Rathilien 23:56, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Rathilien, Yes the new bones were discovered in the same cave as the first, but not necessarily in the same layers (horizons were from 38kya to 13kya), and not from the same part of the cave. Although bones from nine individuals have now been recovered, many of them are little more than a couple of bones from each individual. That is, no other complete, or largely complete skeletons (as LB1 was) have been recovered. There is only one complete cranium, that of LB1, a single molar (LB2) and parts of seven other individuals. The seven new skeletons are all dimunitive, which definitely suggests that LB1 was not unique in stature. Among the bones recovered as the LB3-LB9 specimens were another jaw bone, further showing that the LB specimens did not have a strong chin, which Brown and colleagues have taken as evidence towards species status; Jacob and colleagues dispute the importance of the lack of a chin. Most importantly, given that there were no complete crania among the subsequent finds, it is not yet possible to rule out the microcephaly claim. Excavations are ongoing, and additional skeletons (most importantly, crania) should help to shed light on these issues. When additional discoveries are made, watch this page! Edhubbard 09:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can tell it was a complete jawbone, not just a molar, that they found. Though it was the molar that was the identifying characteristic. This was according to the "Human Hobbit" documentary on the Science channel which included an xray of the jawbone. I'm going to change the article to reflect this. -- GIR (talk) 03:14, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] coexistence with humans

I'm removing the following sentence from the article:

Homo floresiensis certainly coexisted for a long time with modern humans, who arrived in the region 35,000–55,000 years ago, but it is unknown how they may have interacted.

I think this must be simply a mistaken deduction by an editor. Humans arrived in the area before 12kya, but not necessarily on Flores itself. I asked about this over a year ago (several headings up) and got no response, though my question may not have been clear enough. If I'm mistaken and someone has a source for this, feel free to replace it. --Allen 04:30, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] cleanup

All this debate is exciting, though it is unfortunate that some jump in without reading all the available research. Regardless, what I've noticed is that the article itself is getting a little repetitive. I am not invested in this article, and I am not an anthropologist, just a lifelong learner, but I hope that those of you who are repsonsible for this article will do a little cleanup work to protect the status the article has achieved. I'm not going to list everything I've noticed, but I hope all involved will take a few minutes to review the piece in its entirety to find ways to improve it, rather than concentrating on a few argument-inducing paragraphs every time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.99.179.182 (talk • contribs) 14:56, 22 June 2007

[edit] Ebu Gogo in introduction

I'd like to put forward a motion for briefly mentioning Ebu Gogo in the introduction. It's a legend, but the possibility of a connection has been raised in some reputable publications (e.g. New Scientist). Esn 22:48, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Something to note

Have there been any criticisms made of how this brain size wouldn't correlate much at all with what would be expected of a branch from h. erectus? H. erectus had a rather moderate brain size, and seeing a new species with a brain size this small, in the span of that branch... Really isn't likely. And where's the DNA studies?

There can be no DNA studies, because there is no DNA to study, as per the existing text in the 'Discovery' section, "It is unlikely that useful DNA specimens exist in the available sample, as DNA degrades rapidly in warm tropical environments, sometimes in as little as a few dozen years."

Your point about brain size is unclear: it is proposed that H floresiensis may have evolved from H erectus (until a demonstrably better idea comes along), not that it is "in the span of that branch", whatever that means. H sapiens also presumably evolved from H erectus; the two presumed evolutions proceeded differently (and in crude brain-size terms oppositely) due to different environmental selection pressures, resulting in different brain (and other) morphologies.

Of course, the current 'best-guess' paradigm of hominid evolution is based on sufficiently rare fossil evidence that further significant discoveries may well result in major re-evaluations. That's why I find science so exiting.40.0.96.1 (talk) 15:36, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New info?

Didn't see any reference to this new declaration about the wrists :

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070920/ap_on_sc/hobbit_wrist;_ylt=Au3lD9wOqRzSQ3a1v6TEDO2s0NUE

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/09/070920-hobbit-wrist.html

http://www.nature.com/news/2007/070917/full/070917-8.html

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12667-hobbit-wrist-bones-suggests-a-distinct-species.html

And I didn't add it because I don't really understand it well enough to do so.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.226.176.142 (talk) 19:47, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

• Yeah I have two more:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/11/science/11fossil.html?ref=science

This link had another recnt link to another contradictory article at the bottom.Mattjs (talk) 13:14, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Some more new info

Apparently some scientists are speculating that they were just humans that lacked iodine. This article talks about it. Murderbike (talk) 17:55, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Scientific journal is a better source, but I'm having no luck tracking it down. WLU (talk) 21:40, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

The article citation, abstract and reference list can be found here (publicly available): Are the small human-like fossils found on Flores human endemic cretins?. I also have the pdf, and can e-mail it you offwiki if you would like. You can e-mail me from my user page. Edhubbard (talk) 21:47, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Naw, no e-mail necessary. If you wanted to do me a favour, you could add the info to the page though... : ) WLU (talk) 21:52, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Done, although I only know as much as you guys; I've only read the BBC story and tracked down the real ref. I will try to read it and add something more substantive in the next few days. The response is only in the BBC story, though. We might want to cite that, but I think that it might border on giving this story undue weight. Edhubbard (talk) 22:02, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for adding that. I don't think there's much reason to add the news story as the reply is pretty weak (though in my opinion very relevant). Eventually I'm sure all the criticisms will be collapsed into a single section anyway. WLU (talk) 22:15, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Iodine deficiency doesn't make much sense - the island of Flores is only about 75km wide, so the inhabitants would have only need to travel for a day or two to the sea, which would have been a source of iodine-rich foods. (How far is the cave site from the coast?) My understanding is that iodine deficiency mainly occurs deep inland in poor soil regions, like central Asia - and that's a very long walk to the sea.150.101.64.195 (talk) 00:22, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Cretins were often found in the southern Alps around the turn of the 19th century. They weren't necessarily smaller than other humans, nor even less intelligent - they just appeared that way!Red1001802 (talk) 01:01, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Shorten intro

The introductory section is too long and dives into details too early -- in the second sentence! There is even no explanation of technical jargon like "LB1" etc. Those details should be reserved for a later section. The intro should say:

1. That H. F. is a possible species of Homo with such-and-such significant features
2. When it lived
3. That it is controversial whether the remains are from a new species
4. What are alternative theories

It should say nothing more.

Please correct the intro, or I will soon. -Pgan002 (talk) 09:02, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with that and I'm guilty as well - I added several statements to the lead rather than below. The entire page could probably do with a read through and re-write to harmonize lead with body. WLU (talk) 16:19, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

True. The dispute for example is basically 2 camps more or less not yielding ground, plus the ugly question of how the specimen incurred damage exacerbates resolution. As study after study was published, they were added to this article piecemeal. A complete copyedit is well in order.

(But make that "H. f. ;-) ) Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 03:01, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Regular, maintenance copy editing needed

While awesome, and evidently brilliantly popular, this article is badly in need of a cleanup. I'm going to do it myself in the next couple of days, and I'll use the lightest touch possible, but please do be careful as you make your edits/additions: Be sure to punctuate appropriately, watch your syntax, etc. One of the reasons this article's so wonderful is that the scientific portions are easy for a layman to understand, and in order to keep it that way we need to watch our edits. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sugarbat (talk • contribs) 04:35, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] African sightings

I have moved the Talk page comment below, written by Red1001802, here, re his addition of statements about sightings in Africa Paul B (talk) 12:23, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't want to get into an edit war with you, but we have a difference of opinion about whether it matters that very similar sightings have been made in Africa, and quite recently. Calling that irrelevant would be like discussing the Bengal tiger and refusing to allow any mention of Siberian tigers. That's not focussing, that's suppressing relevant information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Red1001802 (talk • contribs)

It's not clear to me why Siberian tigers should be discussed on the "Bengal tiger" page, unless some meaningful point is to made (which I see happens to be the case), in which case anything at all might be mentioned, if it tells us something meaningful and demonstrable about Bengal tigers. The difference is that we have there factual material that it directly linked to the specific topic. Here you have vague stories of little people, who might be mythical, or might be pygmies and who have no demonstrable connection at all to specific physical remains found on Flores. Paul B (talk) 12:35, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Whose opinion is it that these reports represent credible sightings of H. floresiensis? Whose opinion is it that these reports are in any way relevant to this article? Give us a reference that ties these together; otherwise it is a novel synthesis. Hesperian 12:54, 15 May 2008 (UTC)