Talk:Holy See

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[edit] Devotional Masses

Can anyone please tell me how to have a devotional mass said at the Vatican? I went on the official website for the Holy See and there was no mention about this although there is an online offerring for Peter's Pence. What I am looking for is this: my Uncle passed away and we usually go to our local parish when someone dies , make an offering at the office, the secretary then writes the name on a list for masses to be said for the deceased person, and then we get a card to give to the family of the deceased stating that there will be a mass said for the deceased on such date(s) and time(s); I just thought it would be cool to have one said at the Vatican instead of the local parish (even though I personally am Agnostic and don't believe in any of this stuff- but it makes the deceased's loved ones feel better so I feel that is good- so, I do it for them, not for my own beliefs). Is there a website where I can "buy" masses to be said at the Vatican for the deceased? Any assistance will be greatly appreciated. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.3.136 (talk) 16:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] removed abuse

I have deleted irrelevant and inflamatory remarks by an unidentified user from this page. Publius 22:09, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)

[edit] kidnapping part

This showed up in mid-March:

The Holy See stands as a beacon of moral authority for the Catholic world as well as for people of all religions across the globe. To this day, however, the Holy See has not condemned the kidnapping of the six year old Jewish child Edgardo Mortara in 1858 by Pope Pius IX on the grounds that a housekeeper had secretly baptized him.

Someone else found the kidnapping part troublesome, and I couldn't agree with the "beacon of moral authority" part. How many Buddhists (or Unitarian Universalists, for that matter) refer to the Holy See for morality? That the Pope dictates morality for Catholics is already stated in not so many words near the top of the article. That said, it may be worth a sentence explaining the pervasiveness of the influence of the Holy See. To Christians whose final arbitor of morality is other people rather than the spirit within, I refer you to Romans 10. -- Ke4roh 16:46, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, I can also add that "Pope's" "moral authority" is not regarded as such by the Orthodox Church. Everyone remembers that the "Popes" were behind sending the Fourth Crusade against the city of Constantinople, capital of the Byzantine Empire, the fact that will be never forgotten in Russia and other Orthodox Christianity countries.--Victor V V (talk) 04:36, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, indeed, they "remember" that the Pope sent the Fourth Crusade against Constantinople, because they have been repeating it to each other for centuries. They do not remember that the Pope expressly forbade the crusaders to attack the Byzantine Empire and, though he afterwards accepted the fait accompli, his first reaction on hearing of what happened was furious condemnation (see Pope Innocent III: Reprimand of Papal Legate). Or read the history of the so-called Fourth Crusade at Fourth Crusade: Conquest of Constantinople. Lima (talk) 06:19, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Breaking of The Law

Though it is true that sometimes it is lawful to tolerate a lesser moral evil in order to avoid a greater evil or in order to promote a greater good," it is never lawful, even for the gravest reasons, to do evil that good may come of it (18)—in other words, to intend directly something which of its very nature contradicts the moral order, and which must therefore be judged unworthy of man, even though the intention is to protect or promote the welfare of an individual, of a family or of society in general. (18) see Rom 3,8 This is the legal principle cited as the basis for the enciclical Humanae Vitae and is the foundation for the teaching concerning human fertility .

You may also want to re read your Thomas Aquinas. I think the moral discussion you are searching to ID and use is the principle of double effect. And you are right, it is NEVER moral to use evil means to good ends (as the case you site reminds us, correctly):).DaveTroy 20:56, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] PLO

It also has relations of a special nature with Russia (Mission with an Ambassador) and the Palestine Liberation Organization (Office with a Director).

Is it the PLO or the Palestine Authority?

[edit] Montenegro

I'm interested in monitoring the development of the treatment of the dissolved union of Serbia and Montenegro with regard to the foreign relations of the Vatican and the church hierarchy. See also Talk:Roman Catholicism in Montenegro. --Joy [shallot] 19:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Blatently Offensive

Why are you rewrite History? Holy See does not primarily refer to Rome. How self centred can you get?? Please!!! I suggest you write a new Entry - "Holy See of Rome" . It is extremely offensive and biased to say the Holy See is exclusively or primarily "Rome" (old Rome) since it disregards all Historic truth. What happened to the 7 Holy Sees of the Holy Church?

Re-writing history is like burning the books by NAZI Germany. A Holy See was and is in reference to one of the Holy Patriarchates of the Holy Roman Empire of Byzantium in the Early Church. Furthermore the transfer of Rome to the East, namely modern day Istanbul meant that the See of Rome was removed from Old Rome and now was to be found in or granted to New Rome - Nova Roma which till this day is still the title given to the See of Constantinople. Hint: take off your blinkers and you will notice that the centre of the Universe isn't Rome.--203.59.65.175 08:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

If you go by which sees consider themselves, "holy see", you are forced by and large to Rome. Notice that when civil governments have an embassy with the Pope, it IS NOT an embassy to the Vatican City State, but an Embassy to the Holy See.DaveTroy 21:17, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
I believe, furthermore, that Constantinople, Nea Roma, Nova Roma, or any other formulation, does not and cannot implicate the designation "Holy See." Nor does Constantinople make such claim, but refers to itself as the Ecumenical Patriarchate (a title that initially caused some controversy , because of the possible claims to overlordship of the whole Church). Aside from that, your comment implies the subordination of Rome to Constantinople. That position is contrary to the Orthodox Church's own position: while certainly disagreeing with Papal Infalibility, Constantinople and the other Patriarchs acknowledge the preeminence of Rome, as the first amongst equals, and as the direct, apostolic successor to St. Peter, the first of apostles.Mikhelos 00:04, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Opening

I reverted the opening to a previous version because the most recent one had a couple of problems.

  1. There is more than one local ordinary of the Diocese of Rome. There are currently at least three: Benedict XVI (diocesan bishop), Cardinal Ruini (vicar general), and Archbishop Luigi Moretti (vicegerens, see CIC c. 134 § 1 and Art. 15 Ecclesia in Urbe). Saying the local ordinary implies that there is only one, and that is incorrect.
  2. The episcopal see and the church it serves are not the same thing. Granted, see can mean many different things depending on the context and the era, but in the sense of this article, holy see either means (1) the office that presides over the diocese of Rome and whose possessor necessarily presides over the ecclesiastical province, the Italian church, the Latin church, and is successor to Simon Peter and presides over the catholic Church or (2) the juridic entity comprised of the office mentioned in #1 and the Roman Curia (CIC c. 361), to the exclusion of the diocese (see Pastor Bonus and Ecclesia in Urbe). The opening sentence seems to suggest that Holy See = diocese of Rome, which is certainly correct in a figurative sense, as in the Bishop is figuratively his diocese and vice versa, but not in a juridic or diplomatic sense, which is the scope of this article.

Pmadrid 09:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RCC vs. CC edit warring

Wikipedia recognizes that both RCC and CC are valid names for the Church, and it doesn't take sides saying one is better than the other. In the case of a conflict, we must look to the style of the earliest contributor. In this case RCC was used first by Simon_J_Kissane on 08:12, 14 October 2001. I'd urge editors to just accept this, and find much more productive ways to contribute istead of arguing over a single silly word.--Andrew c 04:50, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Although I do endorse the sentiment regarding not getting caught up with terminology I have to disagree here. The original Church of the Roman Empire was known as the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church ("known by many names" so to speak). After the Schism the Western and Eastern Churches both continued using the terms Catholic and Orthodox to refer to themselves and slight the other. As time went on the Western Church tended to favor the use of the term Catholic to imply its unique legitimacy although this use of the name was NEVER acknowledged by the Eastern Churches. The point here is that it is an insult to the rest of the Christian world to use "Catholic Church" to refer to the RCC in a formal context. It would be equally inappropriate for me to refer to myself as the "the only true Christian" and expect others to refer to me this way simply because I said so. --Mcorazao 22:49, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nonsense text within article

Could an editor please review the article as there is due to some person nonsense within the article. This is in section 2 of the article. Offending text 'Yo momma is so fat'

Would a lock on this page be appropriate?

Dean Sharpe 23:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disagreement on general use of "Holy See"

I recently revised the second paragraph to

In its broadest sense the term Holy See can be synonymous with the title Apostolic See, that is, any see founded by any of the Apostles. Although this term is sometimes used to refer to an Eastern Orthodox see, in the English-speaking world the term is most commonly reserved for the Bishop of Rome who, by Roman Catholic tradition, succeeds the chief of the Apostles, Saint Peter.

User Lima subsequently changed this to

Although every episcopal see is seen as holy and the Eastern Orthodox Church constantly applies the adjective "holy" or "sacred" (ἱερά) to all its sees, "the Holy See" (in the singular and with the definite article and no other specification) normally refers to the see of Rome, which is also called "the Apostolic See". While "Apostolic See" can refer to any see founded by any of the Apostles, the term is in this case used to refer to the see of the bishop seen as successor of the chief of the Apostles, Saint Peter.

I disagree with this edit but it's not a huge deal. I'll register my concern here and anybody else who might have an opinion can comment or revise. The term "Holy See" is used by other patriarchs (e.g. [example of Holy See of Constantinople], [example of Holy See of Jerusalem], [example of Holy See of Alexandria]). The "appropriation" of the term by the Bishop of Rome has is not and never has been generally recognized in the Christian community. Although in Western culture (whose history heavily owes to the Roman Catholic Church) it is common to reserve the term for the Pope, this is strictly speaking an inappropriate (and insulting to the others) use of the term, despite what the RCC might say about it. I had attempted to compromise in my revision by only making a small mention of the more general use of the term but Lima has essentially wiped out all the meaning of what I said.

My point is that the article is in reality rather POV and a little more attempt at neutrality, particularly on religious subjects, is appropriate.

--Mcorazao 14:40, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I have in front of me the announcements on the last pages of the February 2007 official gazette of the Orthodox Church of Greece Εκκλησία, inviting applications for posts of parish priest etc. They are headed by titles that could be translated into English as: Holy See of Nea Smyrni, Holy See of Corinth, Holy See of Argolida (Argolis, if you prefer the ancient name), Holy See of Messinia, Holy See of Kerkyra, Holy See of Khartoum and All Sudan, etc. I have come across "the holy See of Pittsburgh and the East, ... the holy See of Toledo and the Midwest, ... the holy See of Ottawa and Upstate New York" of the Antiochian Orthodox Church. I have not come across references to any of these as simply "the Holy See". Lima 16:23, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

That's an interesting argument. :-) So the argument is that because other Sees are not as arrogant as Rome then Rome wins? --Mcorazao 19:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

If find the use of invective disheartening. Needless to say, Rome has always referred to itself as "The Holy See." And despite the historic and often petty disagreements between East and West, I find it instructive that the Patriarchs do not attack Rome for such designation. I would also note that the phrase "The Holy See" is consistent with the honor paid Rome, at least as the first amongst equals, as the inheritor of the patrimony of St. Peter. Regardless of more sensitive sensabilities, nonetheless, the debate is somewhat moot: "The Holy See" is the official and recognized title for the diocese of Rome. Attempts to classify it otherwise merely contradicts the international concensus and defies the essential purpose of an encyclopedia to convey meaningful and useful information to those reading it.Mikhelos 00:17, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] See also

Wikipedia articles generally have a "See also" section. Very often, the articles listed in the "See also" section are also linked to within the article, sometimes more than once. Many links within articles merely explain some particular word and do not lead to the articles on cognate matters that the "See also" section is meant to point to; and not everybody will click on every link given within an article. So a link within an article is by no means the same as a mention in the "See also" section. I see no reason why this article should be different from the generality of Wikipedia articles. But perhaps Srnec can explain why this article should be treated differently. Lima 04:11, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I just think that "See also" sections should usually be avoided. The links they contain are often arbitrary or POV. If the links appear in the text it is also clear to the reader what the connection is between the articles from context. In short, I see no reason why the "generality" of Wikipedia should be continued. Srnec 03:15, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
I have made clear my disagreement with Srnec's view about "See also" sections in Wikipedia articles: I have frequently found interesting articles through such sections. If Srnec were to extend to other articles the excision he has again operated here, he would, I feel sure, arouse a negative reaction. This presumably little-visited page is not the best place to hold a discussion on Srnec's view. So, while I think his action has lessened the worth of this article, I choose to overlook its disimprovement and abstain from further comment on this Talk page and from further action on this article page. It would be good if Srnec would test the effect of applying his policy to an article on which there is much greater activity. Even if he does, I do not intend to comment further, even there. Lima 07:25, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Archbishopric

Why isn't the Pope an archbishop? Certainly the Holy See is a diocese of importance within the Church; and yet strangely, the pontiff remains merely the Bishop of Rome. Any particular reason why? VolatileChemical 13:03, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Are you asking why Wikipedia doesn't list him as an Archbishop or why the Catholic Church doesn't use that title? The answer to the first is because the Pope is generally not called an Archbishop so it would be inappropriate for Wikipedia to refer to him as such (at least in my opinion). As to why the church doesn't use the term I don't think I can give a very satisfactory answer. In actuality, he is an Archbishop. He is the Metropolitan of the the Roman province which is the ecclesiastical territory of the actual (arch)diocese of Rome. I belive he is not called Archbishop of Rome very often because the simpler title Bishop of Rome is older and more direct. His authority over the Catholic Church is not directly tied to his archepiscopal authority over the Roman Metropolitan province, but rather to his position as the successor of Peter. As I said I don't think that this is a very satisfactory answer but I hope it helps.--Kjrjr (talk) 18:48, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Name

Shouldn't it be called "See of St. Peter"? There are other "Holy Sees" (ie: See of St. Mark). This might be offensive to both the Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox. "See" (in this case) means "Chair" of the chief Bishop who "oversees" his diocese. And the term "Holy See" shouldn't be strictly applied to Rome. Even so, the term "Pope" wasn't used by Rome until centuries after the Coptic Pope (Pope Heraclas was called this before anyone else even). 207.6.229.114 19:00, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

The term "Holy See" is used internationally, for example, by the United Nations, and is certainly much more common in usage than the term "See of Saint Peter". Majoreditor 01:20, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Even so, that wouldn't make it the correct title (besides, this See is the only "political one"). There are other "Holy Sees", and therefore, "See of St. Peter" is far more accurate. The UN knows very well that only one of them is involved in politics. Also, in English, everyone never wants to be more specific (even if it is more accurate) because they're just a bit too lazy. Go ahead & call me crazy, but I think it need be specific for the better. So overall, in response to that: TOOSHAY. 207.6.229.114 01:34, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
It is a matter of fact that the exact term Holy See is used for international and diplomatic purposes. See the name of their U.N. Mission, the term used by the government of Canada, the term used by the U.S. government, the term used in the World Factbook -- just to cite a few. Can you cite reliable sources which refer to the entity in question as the See of Saint Peter? Majoreditor 02:01, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

As mentioned above, the term "Holy See" is recognized internationally as referring to the central government of the Catholic Church. In fact, the revised opening sentence is rather odd in that it "translates" See of St. Peter as Sancta Sedes, and you don't need to know much latin to realize that St. Peter doesn't appear there at all. The Holy See is the term the Vatican uses itself, as reflected in the first "References" link. I understand the point that "Holy" may be applied to other episcopal sees. But Holy See is the commonly used title for the Vatican's government. It is used by that body itself, other nations (U.S. embassador to the Holy See [1], British embassador to the Holy See [2]), international bodies (United Nations [3]), and even other religous bodies. Perhaps some may indeed find it "offensive", but it is not WP's place to make political statements itself by changing names of organizations or bodies. Also, there should have been more time for discussion before making such a change.--Anietor 02:49, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

The politics don't matter as much as other things might. The anonymous person said "There are other 'Holy Sees' (ie: See of St. Mark)". Note the article Apostolic See. Rome isn't the centre of everything. There are others. The new name (which I put up) is "See of St Peter" & rightfully so. Even the Catholics admit it. You want sources? Here you go [4] [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], etc etc... Also, you can tell that it is the (holy) see of St Peter. How can you say it isn't of St Peter? Note: links 6 & 7 say "see of rome", which is also specific enough. Simply put, sticking in "Holy See" isn't enough. And, frankly, what politicians or even the general public might say isn't always the proper way of saying it. Please consider the other view. Thanks. ~ Troy 02:52, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm telling you guys, THERE ARE OTHER HOLY SEES. And none of you ever once responded once to that. As far as your all concerned, it seems, the other Holy Sees all just a bunch of pawns that are "under the power of Rome". Might I remind you that you never once said that "See of Peter" or "See of Rome" are wrong. Prove it. 207.6.229.114 02:59, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

You can't ask us to prove a negative, 207.6.229.114. Holy See is the official title used by that body, recognized by other political entities. As a political entity itself, it IS relevant what politicians think. And what makes this argument rather silly is that Holy See links to this article. If Holy See links to it, and it is itself the official title, this is all a rather bizarre exercise in political correctness gone amuck. --Anietor 03:13, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I concur with Anietor. Why use an obscure term when the common use for the term Holy See refers to the government of the Catholic Church?
I'm open to suggestions, such as a disamb. page. Does Troy or the anon editor -- or anyone else -- wish to make any suggestions?Majoreditor 03:31, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
"Holy See" (in this case) refers to the political organization. "See of Rome" or "See of St Peter" refers to religious affairs too. And to answer Anietor's question: "Holy See" probably only links to the current page because it is rather impossible to change all of the links' respective title. However, I'm all for a disambig. page. Maybe "Holy See" should be redirected to this disam. and include this & other Sees. The disambiguation page can have "See of St Peter" in the list, coupled with other Sees/Patriarchates. Looking forward to finding the problem's resolution. 207.6.229.114 03:33, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
Anietor, Troy, others -- your thoughts? Majoreditor 03:38, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I think there should be disambiguation page called "Holy See (Disambiguation)". If there's a link to "Holy See", it should redirect you to that page. Just an idea. ~ Troy 03:43, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I think a disambiguation page is theoretically a good idea. My only hesitation has to do with what other pages would be included. It doesn't appear that any other "see" has an article. Does that matter? --Anietor 04:06, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
We could create other "See" articles using the Patriarchate articles. OR, we could simply link it to the Patriarchate articles (the terms "See" & "Patriarchate" are sometimes used interchangeably).207.6.229.114 04:12, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm undecided on using a disambiguation page. However, if we were to go that route, I would suggest two forks, one leading to Holy See (Vatican) and the other leading to Episcopal See. As mentioned in other talk pages, the term "see" or "holy see" can can be applied in its broadest sense to any eparchy, diocese or episcpoate. There's just too many to list. Plus, there is (unfortunately) no common agreement on the exact number of patriarchates. Moscow, Lisbon, etc. could take offense.
Thoughts? Majoreditor 04:18, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Anything that isn't directly called "Holy See" is likely to be an improvement from when I first looked at the article. If we use Majoreditor's idea, might I suggest linking the second fork as "Apostolic See" instead of "Episcopal See"? The Patriarchs are the only successors to the Apostles, but bishops are second-ranking clergy members & form a different line (which isn't equal to Apostolic succession). Any ideas on this opinion? ~ Troy 04:27, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I think we need to include Episcopal See, unless you can cite references showing that the term "Holy See" is used exclusively by patriarchs and not by bishops.
I don't think that apostolic succession is an issue here. In the RCC and Eastern Orthodox Church, all validly ordained bishops claim Apostolic succession. Also, Eastern Orthodox may take offense to calling bishops "second-ranking clergy members & form a different line (which isn't equal to Apostolic succession)." Majoreditor 05:28, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
(Note, Majoreditor and I had an edit conflict. This comment is directed to Troy) My friend, you need to learn a few things. First, our policy for moving pages states: In several cases, you should list pages that you want to have renamed / moved at Wikipedia:Requested moves, especially ... if you believe the move might be controversial, if you are unsure about the best page name. Before the page was moved, there was opposition to the suggested name change, with reasonable reasons expressed, therefore it would be reasonable to assume the proposed move would be controversial. Secondly, as of your last post, two days after the page was moved, there isn't a concrete proposal for the naming of these articles, it seems you're not sure about the best page name. I have restored it to its previous title until the situation is resolved.
Now then, your statement that only the incumbents of the five ancient patriarchates are "successors of the apostles" is your point of view, but is not a universal one. St. John was bishop of Ephesus, which isn't a patriarchate. St. Thomas founded the Churches in India, none of which are patriarchal. Bartholomew and Jude established the Church in Armenia, which is not one of the five ancient Patriarchates. Finally, Alexandria was founded by St. Mark, who was not one of the twelve. The idea that "bishops are second-ranking clergy" has no validity from a Catholic viewpoint, as Canon 330 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law states, Just as by the Lord’s decision Saint Peter and the other Apostles constitute one college, so in a like manner the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter, and the bishops, the successors of the Apostles, are united among themselves. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (857), "The Church ... continues to be taught, sanctified, and guided by the apostles until Christ's return, through their successors in pastoral office: the college of bishops." Gentgeen 05:49, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
I have moved it before there was a response from the opposition (I think it might have been the 27th or the 28th of July). Anyway, I have realized that I should have given it more time and some more thought on how controversial it might be. However, I have already given my opinion on making a disamb. page. I've had enough. So, I'll let you decide (so far, there hasn't been major opposition on the idea of a disam. page). As for the move I made, my bad. But, as you can see, I'm quite convinced on how we link the other patriarchates. I assure you, I really don't have any other ideas asides from the one above. ~ Troy 03:30, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

This is rather like the arguemtns over the name Royal Navy, in conventional english usage, if someone refers simply to the Royal navy they almost certianly mean the naval forces fo the United Kingdom, even though the literal translation of several country's own name for their anvy would be "Royal navy", when rendered into english they are generally translated as royal Norwegian Navy, etc, and even where the navies are english speaking, a similar identifier is used, Royal Australian navy etc. Someone talking in English about the Holy See is almost certain to be referring to Rome, with other forms beging more fully qualified. In the rare case wehre a suer is actually wanting a different Holy See, they can be directed to a disambiguation page using a hat note at the top of the page. David Underdown 10:06, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name Resolution

I have given it some thought: how about we just put a hat note at the top of the page? It seems like a simple idea — it's not that unnoticeable and yet it isn't as unconvenient as a disam. page is. It should just say something like "for the other Holy Sees in the Christian Orthodox Church, see Episcopal See". Is anyone with me here? ~ Troy 19:52, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I presume you mean: "for the other holy sees ..." There is only one entity in international law (and Wikipedia is not an exclusively religious reference source) that is known as the Holy See (upper-case letters). And are you suggesting that episcopal sees other than those of the "Christian Orthodox Church" are not holy?
The opening paragraph explains that the subject of this article is not directly the episcopal see of Rome. There is at present no article in Wikipedia about that, although there are many on other episcopal sees, as you can see by looking at List of the dioceses of the Orthodox Church in America, List of Roman Catholic archdioceses, List of Roman Catholic dioceses, etc., and clicking on those not redlinked. Lima 04:24, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, you're mostly correct. There is a redirect in place from Archdiocese of Roma (bad title, I know, this is the english 'pedia) to Bishop of Rome. For most Catholic dioceses, we have a single article for both the bishops and the diocese, with the list of bishops split off when it gets to be too long. There's no consistency of when that point is reached; for example, Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Goa and Daman redirects to Patriarch of the East Indies, which lists 38 ordinaries, while Roman Catholic Archbishop of San Francisco and Roman Catholic Archdiocese of San Francisco are seperate articles, even though there have only been 8 ordinaries.
Anyway, much of what would be in an Archdiocese of Rome article curently resides in Cardinal Vicar, although it is very out of date. Gentgeen 07:25, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I have no objection to a hat note at the top. Per Lima, "for other holy sees" should be lowercase. What about the phrase: "For other holy sees, see Episcopal See". That way we don't single out any one church, since several of them use the term "see" and "holy see" (Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Anglican, etc.) and some of them (such as Anglicans) don't normally refer to themselves as Orthodox. Majoreditor 21:36, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
In "For other holy sees, see Episcopal See", doesn't the addition of the adjective suggest that there are also unholy sees! I have now proposed a change in the opening text to make it clear that the internationally-accepted use of "Holy See" to refer to the central government of the Catholic Church does not imply a denial of the existence of other holy sees, indeed thousands of them. Lima 04:34, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't think it's fair to not write "Holy Sees" in capital letters. True, the Holy See of Rome has it in capitalized letters, but so do others. Look at this: Holy See of Cilicia, Holy See of St. Mark, ...I could go on for a while if I want to, but I better not. ~ Troy 17:39, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I think it's OK to do so, as long as it's a proper title, per WP:MoS. Majoreditor (talk) 20:34, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Diocese of Rome

I guess making a distinction between the Diocese of Rome and the Holy See is fine as far as it goes, but it seems to me that some mention must be made of the diocese over which the see presides. Let me point out that Diocese of Rome currently redirects to Holy See. That seems to be natural to me, although I would have no objection to having it redirect to Bishop of Rome instead.

Seeing as Diocese of Rome redirects here, it seems to me that something should be said about the actual diocese in this article. Rwflammang (talk) 21:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm having the same problem; I am interested in the organization of the diocese of Rome itself, (if there is such a thing) and can't find it. Is "Holy See" a reference to the diocese of Rome, or to the RC Church as a whole, or both? As far as articles are concerned, I'd favour separate pages for the Church as a whole, and the Church in the city of Rome, if only because a page on Rome itself would fit better with all the other pages on RC diocese' . Moonraker12 (talk) 15:21, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
PS An analogy here maybe is the distinction between the The Crown and the Duchy of Lancaster in Britain. Moonraker12 (talk) 15:24, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology of the term Holy See

I was hoping that someone could add an etymology section to this article, specifically explaining the word "See". I've never seen the word "see" used to describe a plot of land. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.45.0.133 (talk • contribs)

For etymology, look up episcopal see, referred to at the start of the article. To avoid confusion between the Holy See (central episcopal see of the Catholic Church) and the plot of land known as Vatican City, which is now the Pope's residence (Popes previously resided in various places such as the Lateran and the Quirinal in Rome, Orvieto, Avignon), I have added some words to the article. Lima (talk) 16:40, 20 April 2008 (UTC)