Talk:Hollow (Bleach)/Archive 1

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Plus?

I have seen "Plus" used alot when talkign about spirits that are not Hollows...where does this comes from? The official manga translates them as "Wholes", which makes alot more sense when they other type of spirit is a "Hollow". I'm not saying "Plus" is incorrect, just that I am confused. I have never seen it said that way before. (I am sorry if my English is not very accurate. It is not my first language.)

They are called Plus in the Japanese manga (i.e. not some Japanese word meaning Plus, but the English word Plus in Japanese letters). We may actually change it to Whole someday, I think it depends on how it will be translated in a future English anime dub (if any). -- Y Ynhockey ^(Talk) Y 04:25, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Arrancar?

Who thought of this name? Is it official? If we're going to use something English, I suggest Allankar (the first fan translation). Unless Arrancar is official of course. -- Ynhockey 08:51, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Allankar doesn't make sense though, considering the Romanji is Arankaru, so why add the extra "l"? Also, Tite uses a lot of Spanish references throughout his works, and this one makes a lot of sense since they did take off their masks, or ripped them off, hence the verb "arrancar". Also, the kanji in their name is 破面 (rip;mask), so it makes a lot of sense that this is what they should be called.-- Shaojian 03:12, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Allankar would be Arankaru in Japanese, so would Alllllllankar. It's the sound that matters, not the writing. However, I don't know Spanish, so if you say that Arrancar means to rip or whatever, I guess it's a logical version. We'll see what Viz chooses to do with it later. -- Ynhockey 10:34, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps "Ripper" would be at least vaguely accurate, despite being quite corny :P I mean, being corny's never stopped Viz before -- Guest 16:37, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Arrancar is correct, I believe, for the fact that Kubo does use quite a bit of Spanish as far as Hollows in general go.--Rokuwa 20:53, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

"Arrancar" literally means "to take off" (in a forceful manner) in Spanish. It can be used to mean: to take something away from someone; to break off a part of something; or to run away. -Wilfredo Martinez —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wilfredo Martinez (talk • contribs) 16:47, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

Original Research

I'm surprised no-one's caught this yet (myself included) but the paragraph

"Given that the closest thing we have yet seen to an arrancar bankai is Ichigo's (he's more 'along the line' from shinigami at one end to hollow at the other than any other character who has yet released bankai) and that Ichigo's bankai, Tensa, is a massive compression of his power rather than the 'normal' shinigami's tremendous expansion then it seems likely that any Arrancar which achieves bankai would also share some compressive element to the ban form, and certainly not the shinigami's large-scale offensive form."

is totally unconfirmed speculation in my opinion. I'm removing it, if someone can give me some references to confirm this idea they can feel free to re-add it. Editors, please be on the lookout for anything else of this nature. --Tjstrf 01:57, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Most Powerful Menos

This article states that the Vastrode are the strongest Menos and that the Espada are the most powerful fighters in the Menos army. Clearly there is a contradiction here, which somehow has to be dealt with. Perhaps an "except for possibly the _______" clause at the end of each "strongest" statement would do the trick.--123fakestreet

I think the main problem with this article is that it's simply been changed dozens of times (especially by newbies) due to the quick influx of new info in the last chapters. Therefore, we should re-think the entire section about the menos and come up with an explanation which is both non-contradictory and makes no unbased assumptions. I'll work on it when I can (probably tomorrow afternoon). -- Ynhockey 20:54, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

It looks like a typo to me. "Menos army" should be "Arrancar." That solves the problem right there.

Vasto Lordes are the strongest masked Hollows (Menos or otherwise). Espada are the strongest Arrancar (i.e. unmasked Hollows). Removing the mask makes a Hollow stronger than it was, not stronger than ALL still-masked Hollows.

For example, an Arrancar Gillian like Aaroniero is stronger than a masked Gillian, but may still be weaker than a masked Vasto Lorde, who would in turn be weaker than an Arrancar Vasto Lorde, like Ulquiorra is implied to be. -- Son Goharotto 18:08, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Día de Muertos

Anyone else feel that the Day of the Dead should be mentioned as a possible source of inspiration? The similarities between the grotesque Hollow masks and those used in the Mexican celebration sure warrant at least a passing reference, along with the computer game Grim Fandango as well if we could get away with it :) -- Adahn 07:56, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

You are welcome to add this information as long as you make it clear that it's not a fact that it was an inspiration, but a likely speculation. -- Y Ynhockey || Talk Y 17:17, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Portuguese

An anon added "and Portuguese" after "Spanish" in one case in this article. That isn't incorrect, but the languages are so similar in many cases that I think it goes without saying, so I reverted it. --Anaraug 16:11, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

"In the prototype of Bleach hollows retain human features."

Someone wrote, "In the prototype of Bleach hollows retain human features.", but I'm not sure exactly what they mean, and it doesn't exactly sound verifiable. For now, I'm chaging the wording, but I'll google around for it, and delete it if I can't find it. --Anaraug 04:21, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I've never heard of a Bleach prototype. The guy might be thinking about the appearence of D. Roy really early on in a single page after the Grand Fisher ran off.--12.218.150.28 02:19, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

- I think that the editor was referring to early sketches or notes that Tite Kubo made before putting the story together, but I'm not sure where they found out such information. It would be nice if someone properly sourced it. --Anaraug 02:21, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Kubo Tite originally drew a one-shot manga, a sort of pitch for Bleach. It's not uncommon with manga, like how many TV shows start as pilots. (Kentaro Miura did the same for Berserk.) The characters and story were essentially the same, but certain designs and plot points weren't as refined. I have a copy of the fan-scanlation floating around my hard drive somewhere and I seem to recall it being published in a past issue of Viz's Shonen Jump. -- Son Goharotto 18:22, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Cero

I added the fact that Hollow Ichigo was able to fire a cero in chapter 222. Also, why shouldn't that paragraph stating Menos' powers be changed into an outline instead? I think it's easier to understand if each attack like Negation and Cero are explained individually like how the Menos classes are divided.--Chemicalist 15:56, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it would be better to explain negation and cero in a bulleted list form rather than how it is now. If I don't change it to that, you are welcome to do so. Also, please keep in mind the English naming order (Ichigo Kurosaki, not Kurosaki Ichigo) used on Wikipedia, and use the reference format instead of in chapter XXX of the manga. (Don't forget to include the page with the chapter.) -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 16:12, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Great. I re-added the fact about Ichigo shooting a cero and fixed the reference. --Chemicalist 19:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I still don't understand how the part about Ichigo is important, but if you insist. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 19:54, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It says that it's unknown whether normal hollows can use cero, but Ichigo si neither a menos nor an arrancar, so it implies that a normal hollow can use it depending on how strong they are. --Chemicalist 08:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it is possible that his inner hollow is a natural-born menos class hollow. It says a Gillian is usually created by a combination of weaker hollows, but no such assertation is made about the higher ranks or even that all Gillian are formed that way. We'll just have to wait and see. --tjstrf 09:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Menos are formed by the merger of many Hollows. That's pretty clear cut. Ichigo is not a Menos. Assuming his inner Hollow is a Menos just because he's strong makes no sense.

Rather, it would appear that a Vizard's inner Hollow is simply stronger than a naturally occurring Hollow, Menos included. After all, even the strongest Vasto Lorde started out as a Plus, who became a Hollow, that became a Menos.

But Vizard are Shinigami who became Hollows. They have quite a bit more power than ordinary Pluses. Ichigo in particular is a captain-class Shinigami, with an unusually deep reserve of spirit power to boot. As usual, he's a special case. -- Son Goharotto 18:35, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

And any speculation cannot be put here. We'll have to wait until Kubo tells us," Oh right, I forgot to mention, Ichigo's hollow is a Vasto Lorde type," or something like that.--Hanaichi 01:59, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Arrancar - Espada

Since the chapters are revealing the Espadas little by little now (Grimmjow and most recently Yammi was revealed to be one too) I think the article be made a list when more have been revealed just like in the hollow abilities. i'm waiting for other people's opinions.--Chemicalist 20:29, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually I think the only list should be in Characters in Bleach series, all the info that's repeated here should be removed, unless it's important for this particular article. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 20:59, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Colored markings on faces

It's been shown that other arrancar's face markings(particularly Yammy's) are red instead of blue like what is stated in the article. I'm editing that part. .--Chemicalist , 3 July 2006 (UTC):

Merger

Eek! This is terrible. Wasn't it decided to merge into Characters in Bleach series? In any case, the whole point of the merger was to eliminate all unnecessary data. I will soon trim each character, but IMO it was unwise to just dump all the info info this article. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 19:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

No kidding. Actually, even if we insert them back into the main character article, it will still be a substantial length increase. I was planning on proposing we move them all to Hollow characters in Bleach series (do something similar with the other races as well) this afternoon (I'm on lunch break right now) and trimming them there. How does that sound? --tjstrf 19:33, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I just read through the first two characters and realized how useless most of the info was. I have therefore removed it (and will likely do the same for those other arrancar). If you disagree, we can surely reach a middle ground. Hollow characters in Bleach series sounds like a good idea, even though it is a great excuse for anons to insert blow-by-blow info on each arrancar once a new chapter comes out. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 19:54, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you on removing the padding, as well as the uselessness of having blow-by-blow information added every week to every character. (Especially since it is generally speculative and often incompletely refactored after the new new info comes out). I'm not sure about the name though, my suggestion is a bit wordy, and also sounds like we are describing "characters who have no innards in the Bleach series" (which I suppose we are, if by innards we mean hearts, it still sounds dumb though.) --tjstrf 20:05, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that most of the information was futile, but I don't think this radical deletion was very right. Every information left was concerning just the appearance of the Character and what their Zanpakutou can do. So, I took the liberty to readd (or just add) some of the deleted information, I think they are, in fact, relevant. But I still think would be better create a "Minor Arrancar" article in "Characters in Bleach" category. So we could leave the relevant information without making this article immense and we could keep the images. - Access Timeco 23:35, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

This is the reason I nominated those articles for deletion, there just isn't much useful information for these characters. I don't think even their apprearance should be elaborated on (just a quick explanation will suffice). The zanpakuto however is important. By the way, please don't take offense in that I reverted your edit, most of that information was very POVish and some speculative. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 23:42, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, but about the zanpakuto information, there is the Zanpakutou article and all the information about them are there. About the information about the personalitys, I think they are more than POV, considering they are vital to any character profile, but it's ok. I deleted Margera's image 'cause doesn't make sense a image of him and any of the other characters (specially if we think that, until this time, just Nakim had a participation inferior to Margera's one) - Access Timeco 23:50, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Most fans seem to think Wonderwice will be more important than the others. If he survives this invasion, he'll deserve an article, so we shouldn't have the image deleted just yet. --tjstrf 00:56, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

The image will not be deleated. Just will not be on the article. And what Wanderweiss can be is unsure, even if almost sure. As far as we know, Luppi can still be alive - Hiken in bf said the word Yammy used can be translated as dead of defeated or a bunch of other things -, but we can't take that as base. = Access Timeco 01:41, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Wonderwice

I have concluded that Wonderwice is a logical equivalent to Wandaawaisu. I know I did this unilaterally, so feel free to bash this conclusion. However, Wanderweiss is wrong because it would be Wandaavaisu at best, possibly even Wondaawaisu (er -> aa is also British). -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 19:54, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I have no objections, but then I don't read Japanese either. It's not like any of our other names reflect common usage among the fans, and no one seems to complain. --tjstrf 20:07, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't like this spelling. The character appears to be a german/dutch/swedish stereotype with the blond hair and freckles, so the german Wanderweiss seems more appropriate. Probably Kubo didn't know/remember that germans pronounce w as v with such a spelling. Most Americans don't even know/remember. - Wickning1 15:05, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

We can always move it once they spell his name out for us on a title page. --tjstrf 15:35, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Okie guys, even though the raw manga pages are not out yet... Just want to give you guys a heads up, that it is all but confirmed Wonderwice is NOT an Espada (not ranked top-10, but of course, he might still be strong).-- Finestela 18:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Where? I've seen three different spoilers so far, and I still haven't didn't even see any mention of him. Nemu 19:02, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I have yet to see that either. Still, it won't be the first time we were wrong... and we weren't the only ones who thought he was an Espada either. Source? --tjstrf 19:04, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

It's true. The spoiler picture shows the ten of them and he isn't there. Ulquiorra seems to be number one or five(though it's still speculation). Nemu 19:55, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Here's the long-awaited page of our gathering of Espadas: Click Here -- Finestela 23:32, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

OK then, I guess that's sufficient confirmation. (Also, I can barely wait for the scan on this one.) --tjstrf 01:38, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Recovering on them the intellect

Access Timeco: What does that mean? -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 00:26, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't saw that. What I mean is talking about power levels is not very good, once it's more POV. And we know that the Gillian Arrancar have different power levels: Edorado fought even with Ikkaku even in Bankai, Renji said that his fight with Il Forte would be even with he has fought 100% since the beginning... but D-Roy seems weaker. So, instead of talking about power, I believe is better mention the fact that the Gillian regain a human level intelect after become an Arrancar (remember that the Gillian are almost irracional beings, originaly). - Access Timeco 14:45, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

That doesn't make sense. We don't know whether gillian-level arrancar were actually menos grande before they became arrancar. They may have been regular hollows that rose to gillian level when ripping their masks. This also makes sense because clearly gillian-level arrancar are weaker than shinigami lieutenants and therefore they were probably much weaker as hollows. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 10:30, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Other Information about Arrancar Classes

I have caught up with chapter 242 of the manga. Two brand-new, non-Espada, arrancar are giving chase to Ichigo, Chad, and Uryu while at Hueco Mundo.

I noticed that those two aforementioned arrancar possess more hollow-looking traits and forms which is addressed by Ichigo.

From what Urahara told to Uryu, Uryu explains to Ichigo that the more an arrancar resembles a human form, the higher its class and power. Guido MTY 14:36, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm quoting the exact same text from a user at the AnimeSuki forums that provided more insight information about the Arrancar from the Japanese source which will be in itallics.

basically the info ishida got from urahara was: 1. The 5 arrancars grimmjow first brought to the real world were a mixture of gillian and ajukaru (which is kinda wrong since aizen said they were all gillians after they were wiped out.) 2. After a meno's mask is removed, if its outer appearance resembles that of a human 100%, then it's a vastorode. (and as this explanation is taking place we see images of ulquiorra, yammi and edorad.) 3. The classes of arrancars looking more hollow than human are simply low intelligence minions.

Source. AnimeSuki forums Guido MTY 15:21, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Point #2 is incorrect. It actually says that every class of menos can become humanoid but only with the vastoroode there is a 100% chance. I have also read the RAW and it says the same thing as far as I understand, so it can't be a Manga7 error. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 10:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

According to 245...

According to the chapter 245 spoiler texts, Hollows do not actually use their inner energy to fight, but rather energy they ingest, whether from human souls or the environment. --tjstrf 05:42, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I haven't found this note anywhere. AFAIK it says that surrounding energy helps them fight but they also use their own energy. Wasn't there a hollow at some point which applies spiritual pressure on someone? -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 12:20, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

The note (from Ishida, BTW) actually mentions that lower (read: non-human) hollows can survive on spiritual energy alone, without having to feed on souls. There is no mention of the relationship between their diet and combat ability, though. Euhsung 17:52, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Arrancar

I really think there should be character pages for the arancar that went with Grimmjow to the living world. We were pretty much introduced to the arancar during those chapters, even though we had heard about them from kisuke and isshin, and the grand fisher had a rather brief appeareance in which we learned about the arancar zanpaktou release. Still, both Eduardo and Shawlong provided the main details on how the numeros system works. Eduardo was involved in 5 or 6 straight chapters, with hardly anyone else being seen. His Volcanica was the first release we saw, and he furthered the character development of Ikkaku, forcing him to release his bankai, which I regard as one of the top moments in the manga thus far. My friend wrote a great article about Eduardo, just to have you guys delete it, causing him to be done with this site. I have been working on one, but I want to make sure this one won't be deleted. If your argument for deleting it were to be "he is dead," well so is luppi, and he has a character page, even though he didnt last as long as Eduardo. Kaien is also dead, and he also had less time than Eduardo. I honestly don't know why any accurate information is deleted, considering you urge people to contribute. ---Vic- potential intelligent contributor

Well as you said Eduardo was only in 6 chapters. That is roughly the same amount of time the hollow Shrieker and the cockatiel had yet they don't have articles and no one is asking for them to. As for Luppi, I assumed the unwritten rule is that all prominently featured espada deserve their own page but given that Luppi contributed little as an espada and won't contribute now; his page is probably most likely to be deleted next. Just for reference you should check out the Japanese Bleach page. It is literally only one page with short character summaries and no sub-pages for characters. Be thankful for what you have here on the English page. Gdo01 06:51, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

None of these things should be deleted, and the shrieker contributed nothing to the storyline, unlike these arancar. And also, don't tell people to be thankful, especially people that are willing to contribute. Its not like having more articles is harmful, the whole wikipedia MO is to provide people with as much information as possible. Vic

I was referring more to Shibata who was present in about 6-7 chapters. He did contribute to the storyline, reappeared, and had more immediate emotional impact on the main characters than Eduardo or the other arrancar. Also if it weren't for Shrieker, we would have never known about Hell, so he has some contribution. Just like Eduardo was the first appearance of an arrancar release, Shrieker showed the first appearance of Hell, so they are equally notable or non-notable.

Furthermore, I see no further information that can be added to their descriptions already in the Hollows in Bleach article. The information that was in those articles included zanpakutō release, character outline, and character history. The releases are already covered in zanpakutō, the character history can only be expanded by detailing the fights blow by blow, and the character outlines will be short since these characters had very little development except for maybe Shaulong.

Also on your other point, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information so the point of Wikipedia is not to provide as much information as possible, it is to provide information about notable topics. Gdo01 07:17, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I generally support the inclusion of groups with finite limits. For example, all of shinigami captains or lieutenants, or all of the Espada. This is how I'd come to supporting Luppi while opposing Edward. Luppi gets grouped in with the complete Espada box set, and cannot be used to argue inclusion for other individual cases. This is sort of my take on the Wikipedia:Pokémon test. –Gunslinger47 01:44, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Cero, official translation "DoomBlast"

in volume 6, Chapter 49, pg 119 of the bleach manga translated by VIZ. Cero is called "Doom Blast". I think because we try to use the english translations as much as possible, I think this shoiould be changed. But I know that this would be reverted back countless times because people will think that it was pulled out of thin air. I don't know how to cite it so i can't put it up. would anyone else do this? I would but I don't know how to do the citation/foot note thingy. and I can scan the page for you if you want to use as proof of doom blast.Tensa Zangetsu 21:29, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with this change. The better-known English name remains cero. (If the anime also uses Doom Blast, then perhaps you will have a point at that time.) I move we keep cero, with a referenced note stating that the Viz translation uses doom blast instead. Inoue's brother is listed as Sora rather than Kakei with mention of the alternate name and a reference for the change by Viz, let's do the same here. --tjstrf Now on editor review! 21:36, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

though viz called Doom Blast i dont think we know what it will translated for as for the anime, and as we know sora stayed sora in the dub NekrosKoma 22:15, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The kanji for cero is 虚閃(せろ). The characters literally mean "hollow flash", but it is read as sero which is Spanish for zero. Tite Kubo does this quite frequently with Hollow terminology. I don't know what's wrong with VIZ. I guess "cero" or "hollow flash" were not cool enough or something.

We'll continue to use "cero" for the same reason we're continuing to use shinigami. That being that there are currently many more English speaking fans reading/watching the scanlations/subs than there are people who are reading/watching the VIZ/dubbed material. –Gunslinger47 05:15, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Exequias

Are these guys arrancars or just hollows? If they are arrancar shouldn't they have removed part or their masks? My guess is that they are Adjuchas which would make them powerful enough for guard duty and allow for the human form. I won't change the article since I don't know for sure but it is a little odd that arrancars are characterised by removing their masks and these guys have full masks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jargon (talk • contribs) 07:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC).

From the conversation, it doesn't appear that they were necessarily subordinate to Aizen.
Arrancar were a rarity prior to the introduction of the hōgyoku, so such a large, independent group of them is unlikely.
Their masks are full and relatively homogeneous, differing only slightly. This fits with what we've seen of the Menos so far.
It's been assumed up until this point that Adjuchas were significantly larger than your average human. You'll note that in this chapter (254) that there is absolutely nothing to judge the Exequias size by.
On the other hand... they all do carry swords with them… –Gunslinger47 19:12, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Because they were just introduced, it's hard to single out the actual info about them; but seeing them in typical Arrancar clothing and having zanpakutous, it's not farfetched that they're Arrancar unless stated otherwise.

About them needing to be Adjuchas for the human form, this isn't universally the case; take Il Forte of the Numeros for example, he is confirmed to be Gillian class but looked as human as Ulquiorra does. Human form is said by Ishida to be based on intelligence, not necessarily power. We'll just have to wait for the next chapter to see.--Chemicalist 13:06, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Ahh but Il Forte was an Arrancar, I said they were regular hollows thus only likely to have humanoid form if they were Adjuchas or above. However having read Gunslingers point that they are all carrying swords I would have to agree that they are almost certainly Arrancars. Jargon 00:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Espada existed prior to Aizen's betrayal?

Did the Espada exist prior to Aizen's betrayal? On the first page of Ch254, it's said "once they obtained the hōgyoku all previous members of the Espada would become obsolete". Does this mean that the Espada have existed as an organization prior to the point where Rukia was rescued in the manga (i.e. the point where Aizen obtains the hōgyoku)? And if so, does that mean there was once a point where Aizen wasn't controlling it? –Gunslinger47 21:55, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Just a little speculation here. We know that arrancar already existed before Aizen got the hogyoku. We also know that Aizen had strong ties with the hollow world before he got the hogyoku; his "rescue" from the execution hill seems to suggest this. So it's probable that somewhere along the way, he did start gathering the already-existing arrancar together, and organizing these, that the Espada were simply the best of the best of these. I think that the Espada, as an organization, is something of Aizen's devising, since these above the numeros seem an awful lot like the Captains and their underlings in Soul Society. Being an ex-captain himself, it seems more likely that this is his structuring of things, rather than the rankings having been established/organized independently. User:144.135.138.156

I agree. It seems that Aizen has had dealings with Hueco Mundo dating back to the days Ichimaru was lieutenant (remember those hollows that attacked Kira, Hinamori and Renji) so it is plausible that he has been structuring the arrancar and Hueco Mundo for years before he even knew about Rukia. Gdo01 07:15, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

That is much more likely than the alternative: A shinigami entering Hueco Mundo unannounced, overthrowing the Espada, then commanding them with complete authority within just a short few months. –Gunslinger47 09:29, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

That sounds essentially right, especially when considering the alternative suggested here. That does leave the question, the mechanics of HOW Aizen managed to rule in the first place? One of the arrancar, I think after being defeated by Chad/Ishida on entering Hueco Mundo, says something to the effect of they all follow Aizen because he fears nothing. For those with better memories than me, is it actually stated anywhere how he managed to gain the foothold there? Obviously appearing and simply saying "I am fearless" isn't going to cut it - he's probably had to step on a few necks before winning them over with his purpose? 144.135.138.156 13:25, 11 December 2006 (EST)

My personal speculation is it has to do with Ulquiorra. There is evidence suggesting that he was a Vasto Lorde prior to becomming an arrancar. Also, similar to Aizen, he as supernatural powers of manipulation. –Gunslinger47 03:54, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the main thing you have to remember about arrancar is that they have the power of reason which hollows don't, so they're more intelligent. Aizen could have assumed power over the hollow world not through his power, because I think he was still developing his power when he visited this place, but through offering the complete destruction of soul society. In my opinion Soul Society is usually on top of things. I mean how many times have we seen a hollow be defeated by a shinigami vs the other way around. Since Hueco Mundo was on the losing side Aizen's ability to offer victory over Soul Society in exchange for their servitude would have seemed like a fair deal to them. I think there a balance thing in the world that only allows a certain number of arrancar and vizards to exist as nature keeps their numbers low. Similar to how nature keeps heterosexual numbers relatively high while homosexual people are a minority. The hogyoku didn't allow him to create arrancar, it allowed him to bypass nature's restrictions and bring forth more arrancar. Since there were more arrancar there was selective opportunity to pick out the strongest, so it doesn't seem strange that some weaker ones were booted out of the Espada group. Besides Aizen is always talking about stuff like on the realm of God and how he's going to take God's place in Heaven, so the nature stuff makes sense.–Noman953 02:34, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

"I think the main thing you have to remember about arrancar is that they have the power of reason which hollows don't, so they're more intelligent."

This is unattestable speculation. –Gunslinger47 21:28, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. We see ordinary hollows showing intelligence, attacking with sonic bombs (Shrieker) or controlling their victims (Numb Chandelier) and while they're not paragons of intellectual mastary, they certainly aren't mindless and unreasoning. Alternatively, Yammy (10th Espada) and Nell Tu (and companions) as examples aren't real bright. We have clever hollows and dumb arrancar. 144.135.138.156 11:16, 18 December 2006 (EST)

There is a better way to think of it. Hollows have a more animal like intellegence, while arrancar have a more humanoid intellegence. Animals are smart, to the point of having intellegence exceeding that of some humans, however, the key difference is that in the end, animals are still driven by instinct (In the case of hollows, the instinct to devour souls), while humans have the ability to ignore that instinct and act differently than what their instincts tell them. (Which isn't always a bright idea) This example is alot better way to compare regular hollows with arrancar, on terms of intellegence. It's not a stable argument to say, "all arrancar are smarter than all hollows", it's a better one to say, "most arrancar are smarter than most hollows". 71.1.241.98 16:51, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

The key distinction between humans and animals is our consciousness. Hollows have this. Instinct drives hollows, as it does us all. Try ignoring your "instinct" to devour food for a while and you'll see what I mean. :) –Gunslinger47 02:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

" 'I think the main thing you have to remember about arrancar is that they have the power of reason which hollows don't, so they're more intelligent.' This is unattestable speculation". Gunslinger what the Hell are you talking about, there's no speculation here. This is in the manga. Its says hollows are driven by instinct and shinigami have reason so arrancar get the reason from taking on shinigami characterisitcs. That makes them more intelligent. For the record I think this instinct vs reason thing is something Kubo took from the Devilman series where Akira has to abandon his human reasoned thinking and feel mainly instict to become a demon.–Noman953 03:26, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

You guys strayed quite a bit from the original "Espada existed prior to Aizen's betrayal" topic... When the manga said "once they obtained the hōgyoku all previous members of the Espada would become obsolete" It was talking about the Privaron, the naturally-created arrancar that Aizen had placed in the Espada ranks. -Dannydog3067 17:40, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Abilities

"Like the shinigami, the hollows have a multitude of combat skills and abilities. They usually acquire energy to power their abilities by devouring souls, but can also ingest energy from the air when in spiritual realms such as Hueco Mundo." How accurate is this statement. I don't remember the manga giving any source for their power. They devour souls due to being creatures of instict and to reproduce their ranks. shinigami get their power from their own soul so why can't hollows do the same. and ingesting energy from the air sounds very quincy to me, absorbing spirit particles. I don't think Nell and his brothers eat other souls for energy either. Someone please varify this line.--Noman953

I think it said somewhere around the beginning of the manga that hollows increase in power when they devour souls. This seems likely. I cannot find the place where it said it - don't remember the first chapters too well - but I'm sure somebody will. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 20:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Shinigami eat food. In general, souls living inside the Soul Society don't need to eat, however anyone with any amount of spiritual power will eventually grow hungry and even starve to death. This is probably a round-about way of aquiring reishi, since all matter in the Soul Society is made from it. In the real world, the only readily available source of reishi is humans. –Gunslinger47 23:12, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Zeruapuro?????

Don't know if that's the actual way to spell the new arrancar's name. Anyone want to get a page started on him. Since I'm assuming we're gonna start pages the second each one reveals their name and we can tell who's who. There's also that other scrony arrancar whose name I don't know. I know the information on these guys is limited but we do have a name and a picture and some level of knowledge on them. Think about Yamamoto's lieutenant, we've seen him like 7 times only and still have a page on him.---Noman953 03:31, 11 December 2006

Probably Zell Apollo or something. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 10:29, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

My bad. The extremely unreliable english version of the manga that I read has confirmed it as Zaeruaporo, so I think we should stick with your name. I'm very ignorant on the Spanish language but I'm assuming that its Kubo's attempt at getting another Spanish name down, but this name doesn't seem like Spanish to me. And what about the page on him, should we start one or not---Noman953 03:31, 13 December 2006

We should probably wait a bit. Same with the name - we can just use the katakana (zeru aporo) until the name is revealed, as we did with adjuchas (ajūkasu) for example. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 21:32, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

General fandom opinion seems to be putting it as Zael Apollo until otherwise shown. Kurotsuchi mayuri 18:00, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Moustache Man

That espada with the white moustache where is he in the meeting.

Between Yammy and Zaera-Polo. Lord Air 06:52, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Arrancar page

I think "Arrancar" deserve a page of its own, in the same way Vizard is not merged within Shinigami. Lord Air 06:56, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

It's not an issue of deserving it. The Hollow page is not long, even with the the arrancar section. –Gunslinger47 09:56, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

The Hollow page will never be long, as there is nothing much to say about them. Right now HALF of this article is about Arrancar; and looking at Bleach right now, informations about them will keep coming. Lord Air 04:32, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

We've been introduced to many arrancar in a short amount of time and it seems this trend will continue for some time. As the current focus of the manga, I think they do deserve their own page and not to be hidden beneath the hollows. Kurotsuchi mayuri 12:16, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

The reason why we originally merged the arrancar and hollow pages (I think I did it personally) was because the hollows and arrancar are inseparable - you cannot have a page about hollows without arrancar and vice versa. Arrancar are just hollows who have a partial mask. There have already been hollows who were also arrancar (Grand Fisher). The arrancar army is also based on hollows and likely contains non-arrancar hollows as well (although this is speculation). On the other hand, the vizard indeed share many shinigami traits, but they are an individual group, operating separately from shinigami, and according to Shinji and Hiyori, they hate shinigami. Therefore, the only thing common between them and shinigami is the zanpakutō. Therefore you can easily separate the two articles. Moreover, the point about the article on hollows not being very long as it is is another strong argument against separating the pages. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 14:51, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

As much as I respect all your opinions I think you guys need to know that pages should be edited to provide the users of those pages the best viewing material. Discriminating between the two based on what's known about the group doesn't make sense, to me anyway. To be honest I think there is a valuable difference between hollows and arrancar, similar to shinigami and viazard since the hollows act randomly and stupidly while the arrancar are organized under Aizen. I think there should be seperate pages for them because I think there should be symmetry between pages. Don't do something for one group that you don't do for another group. In other words, for the viewer's sake, either join both groups or seperate both of them.--Noman953 16:21, 11 Febuary 2007

I'm pretty sure I've seen normal hollows organized by Aizen. There's the feeding hollow from the latest chapter and the Exequias. They seem to have complete masks and are clearly not mindless. In addition, there are Nell's hollow friends who might be silly and immature but they are not mindless. I'm sure that at some point in the future, there might be a separation but now it looks like Aizen rules over all arrancar and hollows while arrancar are nothing but improved hollows. Gdo01 21:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Noman, you keep on saying that hollows are are stupid as you did back in December above but as above, there are plenty of smart hollows. Shrieker was manipulative and cunning, Numb Chandelier thought herself too smart to attack directly and preferred controlling, Grand Fisher had to be smart to avoid getting killed by a shinigami in 50 years (he isn't exactly the strongest hollow you know). Plenty of smart hollows and didn't the manga hint that Grand Fisher had sent Shrieker. It seems that there is organization even between hollows. 128.227.137.206 18:44, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Uh no I didn't. Please re-read what I wrote. My main point was they are not as smart as the arrancar. The weaker ones seem to be driven only to eat souls. The stronger ones are smarter yes. But as far as organization goes the arrancar are better at it. Also you can't use my previous posts to counter arguments because a LOT and I mean a lot has happened in the manga since those posts. Read the dates, if I wrote any. The manga progresses but our speculations and theories remain the same on these pages. Before you debate read the date on when that post happened; because as a human being my views will continue to change the more I watch and analyze the story. To be honest I not even sure if I believe what I wrote back there anymore because it was a while ago--Noman953 03:41, 16 April 2007

Bolded for clarity: Then, perhaps you should not post speculations and theories to talk pages? –Gunslinger47 15:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Fracción

Based on the latest spoiler pages and translations, I have added information on a new category of arrancar, the Fracción. Fracción seems like the mostly likely Spanish transliteration of the Japanese, furashion, but if anyone has other thoughts, I'd be glad to hear them. - SilverBelial 22:40, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I suppose furashion (フラシオン^?) could mean fracción, the Spanish word for fraction. –Gunslinger47 01:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but the kanji for furashion is " 従乕官 "? That's obeying or following (従^?), fierceness or bravery (乕^?) and an official or public servant (官^?). –Gunslinger47 01:30, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Nope, that looks about right to me. - SilverBelial 01:39, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

That's odd that they would spell it like that because the word for fraction in spanish is pronounced with a hard K sound and a soft S sound. In japanese it should be FuRaKuShiON.Kangarugh22 18:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

While I'll admit that the katakana is off for Fracción's actual pronunciation, but it's the only word that comes remotely close to Frashion. Flacion, flacion, frassion; none of them words, as far as I know. And Kubo did, after all, have Ulquiorra call himself the Cuatro Espada - his Spanish isn't exactly perfect. - SilverBelial 22:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Vastolorde-full.jpg

While I appreciate the thought, the uncropped silhouette, Image:Vastolorde-full.jpg, doesn't really flow well in this article. Can we not use Image:Vastolorde.jpg with a link to the full version? –Gunslinger47 08:13, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

No, we cannot. We have to go with one or the other, since the fair use rules here require that images actually be in use in an article. Annoying in this case, I know, but true. --tjstrf talk 08:29, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

~~I spoke with an administrator about it, and he seems to clarify that direct links from mainspace satisfy the non-orphaned criteria. (link) –Gunslinger47 18:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)~~

I am still wondering why this image made it into the article. It's not only not very interesting (same with the adjuchas image), and serves no useful purpose, but also misleads many fans into thinking that humanoid arrancar we have seen so far are in fact Vasto Lorde (although thank God we care little what the fandom believes). I suggest just getting rid of this and the other image. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 19:30, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Very little is known about vast lords. For this reason, I currently believe that the silhouettes are worth having. That said, I have no personal attachment to them and would not fight a consensus for their removal. –Gunslinger47 20:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't really like them either, they're uninformative and, of all the 100+ Bleach images, probably the least useful to the page they accompany (even more than those 5 dozen pictures of Byakuya's bankai we finally ditched). --tjstrf talk 23:06, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I've speedied the full silhouette with {{db-self}}. There is a rule written somewhere out there in the Wikipedia talk namespace that says direct links to images do not qualify as "complementing" an article and thus fail to meet the non-orphaned fair-use criteria. –Gunslinger47 23:16, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

arrancer, espada, menos

I'm not sure about this but are all the espada, menos either adjuchas or vaste lorde? and a none just normal hollows?

Menos by definition are masses of hollows joined together. All of the Espada were originally menos, as only menos are ranked by Soul Society (this might see a retcon later, but for now...). All of the Espada were at least Adjuchas, as Aaroniero Arleri claimed he was the only Gillian. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 05:49, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Damn, I was going to say that. But yeah, what he said. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 05:50, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Do u know which of the espada are vaste lorde?

No one knows. Could be all of them, could be none of them, could be a mix. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 05:59, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Episode 132

Though it's filler, doesn't the Menos Grande that appears resemble the Adjuchas example shadow? Anyone have any confirmation? Cotton ^{-reply here please-} 18:41, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Negacion

I would just like to mention the fact that, while Negacion stops all attacks, the Shinigami were still able to talk to Aizen. Therefore, a Zanpakuto that uses sound to attack enemies (Suzumushi) could theoretically attack those confined in Negacion. Kinda like how in the D&D Monster Manual there's not a single enemy with resistance to sonic damage. Kobra 05:31, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

While an interesting theory, that would qualify as original research, or something along those lines at least. ~SnapperT o 06:24, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

I just wanted to suggest it here, nothing more. Kobra 10:05, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Plus there's the obvious fact that the one person with such a weapon happens to be evil. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 08:17, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

True, but we don't know the identity of everyones' Zanpakuto in Soul Society, do we? It's possible that there's at least one with the ability to inflict Sonic damage-- even if the wielder isn't fully aware of it. Kobra 10:05, 17 July 2007 (UTC)