Talk:Holland "Dutch" Wagenbach

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I took a look at "What links here", it seems to be a The Shield fictional character. — TheKMantalk 18:39, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

And it appears that it will be agressively edited to be as badly written as what links here. Hpuppet - «Talk» 19:15, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Misunderstanding of NOR, POV, and encyclopedic tone

1. Description of fictional characters and their personality based on canonical sources (Shield episodes) is NOT original research. 2. NPOV applies to content and value judgments, not tone. A work of fiction is not bound by NPOV and in describing a work of fiction in an encyclopedia article, any non-neutral points of view present in the story MUST also be included in the article. 3. TV show characters are not Shakespeare characters. The lack of in-depth literary analysis does not imply a lack of encyclopedic tone, and any such facetiousness WOULD violate NOR.

I'm removing the tag as it is completely unwarranted. If there is any fault with the article, it would be a fancrufty lack of brevity. If you feel there is superfluous information on the page, don't post tags, remove it (and justify your removal on the Talk page). Make the article better, and put the tag stick away. Unigolyn 21:42, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bad tone:

Here are some examples of non-encyclopedic tone:

1. The entire article is about the history of the character in the show. This is not encyclopedic content. 2. "Holland "Dutch" Wagenbach is a socially inept but extremely successful police detective assigned to the Farmington District of Los Angeles." - Fails NPOV and NOR. 3. "Dutch's wife was an alcohalic and after forcing her into rehab, his wife promptly began a sexual affair with her AA sponsor, becoming pregnant by him, and leaving Dutch for her new lover." In addition to needing copyediting for spelling, this sentence is at best confusing. 4. "Dutch in not well liked around the Barn." - fails NOR. 5. "Many of his fellow officers consider Dutch to be an over-educated nerd who thinks he is better than the rest of the officers at the Barn." - needs copyedit, fails NOR.

That's just ridiculous. When discussing a fictional character, it is most assuredly not POV to describe their character traits. Wagenbach IS a socially inept but successful detective. It is not "original reserach" to describe fundamental traits of fictional characters, such as calling Mackey corrupt and violent or calling Julien gay and religious. A sentence like "Fictional Character X is thought by many to be B and C" is not encyclopedic language, it's a misunderstanding of what encyclopedic language is. From the article on Moby-Dick: "The tyranical captain of the Pequod who is driven by a monomanicial desire to kill Moby Dick, the whale to whom he lost his leg." This is encyclopedic language. "Captain Ahab, thought by many to be the tyranical captain of the Pequod, was believed by some to be driven byh a monomaniacal desire to kill the whale supposedly called Moby Dick." This is NOT encyclopedic language. Unigolyn 15:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I suggest that my edit ([1]) is the best starting point around, but since we are deterimened to have shieldcruftiness in this article, the tag should remain. Hpuppet - «Talk» 18:21, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I'll go over it at some point and see what I can do, just keep in mind that alot of the characters in "The Shield" are really hard to write NOPV's for. Especially the ones not dead. -- Makaio 05:00, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Harry Bosch?

I have no opinion on the rest of the article, having never watched an episode of the television programme, but I would definitely like to see a citation for the suggestion that this character is based in any way on Michael Connelly's Harry Bosch. I suggest that that particular connection is both original research/opinion and considerably overblown. The fact that they're both homicide detectives in Los Angeles puts them in a class of thousands of fictional characters -- most fictional detectives approach things from a psychological point of view (Lieutenant Columbo could just as easily be cited here) -- and the fact that they both have Dutch last names isn't "instructive", it's far more likely to be coincidental. I don't believe that Harry Bosch ever mentions that his last name is Dutch in origin, and if his name reminds anyone of anything, it would be "artist". If this detective's name was, say, Warhol or Van Gogh, I'd be prepared to be more convinced. Accounting4Taste 23:13, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

I saw no citation, so took out the reference. If someone can support this, by all means put it back. Accounting4Taste 00:22, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spoilers?

There seems to be a little edit war going on here about spoilers. Since the article itself contains a spoiler warning, I don't see any problem with posting them -- people who don't want to read them can skip over things that are so identified. And since this article is so determined to provide every single bit of cruft about a character on a TV show, it doesn't seem reasonable to insist on some information being present and not others. If I was coming here looking for information about this character, I'd want to see all of it; not everyone has the time or inclination to sit through more than half an episode of this programme. Accounting4Taste 23:21, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Jay Karnes.jpg

Image:Jay Karnes.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 16:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)