User talk:Hitsuji Kinno/Sailor Cosmos Debate

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To-do list for User:Hitsuji Kinno/Sailor Cosmos Debate:

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Requests Everyone can add information to this page as long as they have references and credentials to back up what they are saying. Collected versions of each theory. Variations on each theory (this means that they aren't the classic theories.) Fringe theories theories that don't fit any of the the four main groups and are generally not accepted. Keep wars off of the talkback page and the userpage. I don't care how great you think you are, no theory is superior to another, except Takeuchi's, which would be considered canon. Fan-influence on the theories (i.e. specific names) websites that cover all sides of the debate new evidence someone to kindly type up the Japanese version of the original acts 51-52 in Japanese and romaji. (Kanji prefered with Kana transliteration and proper labels) Japanese with Kanji Japanese with Kana transliteration Romaji transliteration All supporting material should have Japanese included with the English. Ignore Wikipedia rules, this is about a debate and the Japanese original text is important If you are not an expert on whatever theory and can't read Japanese it's highly advised you do not get in over your head by replying before educating yourself. Finish the sections on Honne, Tatemae, and Japanese modes of communication with back up. List of all references needed. Invite yet more educated people on this subject to add their stuff to this page. force them to include support. All theories added MUST have support fom the manga and/or Japanese culture or they will be subject to deletion. Copyedit Japanese sections need to be double checked for their spelling. There are most likely spelling mistakes. Cleanup The bit about the Princess cut--that's wrong. NPOV NPOV is not an issue on this page. Ignore this rule since it's a userpage. Just make sure this doesn't leak to wikipedia proper. Don't incite to flame. Verify Everything. This should be well referenced and cited. References Every quote ever used in this debate should be added with a reference to the page number, every statement of opinion should be backed with a quote and a proper citation.

Contents 1 Shinzoubun translation 2 Me of here 3 Pink Moon Crystal 4 Translating space 5 First fan-made dispute

[edit] Shinzoubun translation

So, it seems to me like the first order of business ought to be to get that Sailor Cosmos scene from the rerelease translated, just in case it's any clearer than the original. (I wish I owned either one, but I've at least read the Alex Glover translation of the original and looked at scans of the relevant scene (albeit without knowing what order they were supposed to be in). --Masamage ♫ 23:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd agree with that, though this page is far from complete. I'm still trying to finish up various sections, but I should be able to do that next week between novel-writing. --Hitsuji Kinno 23:33, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I see you've got the kanji up; want some help? I have an awesome dictionary and decent grasp of grammar. And I'm excited. :) --Masamage ♫ 00:20, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry about the translating space... go ahead and add whatever. I'm just trying to be thorough and non-anal and non-judgmental on which is best. I've asked everyone I know with a theory to spill it out for me and give decent support. So this page isn't about me, it's to help the community and basically show that the same lines, despite if you know Japanese or not have drastically different approaches and views.

I can even put a to do list at the top of this page if you'd like... I have a running list of things that need to be done. In fact I'll do that now given I have the time. (VACATION!) --;; I should write/finish that damned novel though. --Hitsuji Kinno 22:38, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

P.S. I didn't add this to the Sailor Moon Wikipedia project just in case people got confused and thought it was a page that we intended for them to use/launch. =P So I did a userpage instead. Otherwise it would have peen launched under the project for all to talk about. --Hitsuji Kinno 23:22, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Me of here

Question: What's wrong with the "The me of here" argument? It seems pretty conclusive, especially considering that, as I have just discovered, the phrase "koko de no watashi" is actually in it, which is pretty clearly a way of putting the concept "me" solidly into third person. I know there's an argument against this, but I've forgotten. --Masamage ♫ 23:03, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pink Moon Crystal

Trying to figure out what's going on with the Ginzuishou. Right now it's looking to me like its history goes like this (in the manga), with everything here stated or shown in the series unless otherwise noted:

1. Handed down through generations of the Silver Millennium
2. Used by Queen Serenity, who is not a Senshi at the time of the war with Earth
3. Sent with the Princess to the 20th century
4. Used there by Sailor Moon
5. Evolves into her Sailor Crystal, the Silver Moon Crystal
6. Sailor Moon becomes Neo-Queen Serenity
7. The Neo-Queen becomes a non-Senshi
8. Assumption: Crytal reverts back into a non-Sailor Crystal (since it's shown as such in the Black Moon arc)
9. Neo-Queen Serenity can still use it (see #2)
10. Chibiusa takes the Crystal to the past
11. Chibiusa becomes a Sailor Senshi
12. It evolves into the Pink Moon Crystal, which is the last we see of it

Is this right? Anything missing or incorrect?

It really doesn't apply directly to the Sailor Cosmos debate, because of course a person can be a Senshi without having their Sailor Crystal in their possession (hence the first few story arcs), and can have a Sailor Crystal without being a Senshi (e.g. Mamoru). But people use the Ginzuishou a lot in arguments about it so I just want to make sure I've got all this right. --Masamage ♫ 22:00, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Do you mind me moving this to the crystal evolution and Crystal Lore userpage I created? I'm also working with several oitherfan stuff like timeline debates, etc. This s a basic outline, but I'm putting up some refutes, etc.--Hitsuji Kinno 14:59, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Sure, that's fine. --Masamage ♫ 21:59, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Translating space

Moved comment to relevant new page. --Hitsuji Kinno 01:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First fan-made dispute

In your list of problems with the first fan-made dispute (referring to the picture of Eternal Sailor Moon with Cosmos' locket thingy in her hand) you make the argument that the author claims the thing Usagi is holding is Cosmos' Sailor Crystal, but I don't see that on the original livejournal page (although I will give you the benefit of the doubt that it was removed from that page if you say that's the case). Also, if that is the major problem with this theory I don't think the arguments should be spo quickly thrown out. The author likely meant only that it is Cosmos' locket she's holding, and who knows what crystal is inside it.. but it is clearly Cosmos' locket in Eternal Sailor Moon's hand, which is a pretty big piece of evidence. Meteorie 00:44, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree; that's definitely not specified to be her Sailor Crystal. It's on her staff when we usually see her. (The evidence isn't conclusive either way, of course, because of the statement that, identity aside, Sailor Moon is the "true" Sailor Cosmos for her bravery. So holding the Cosmos Thingwhat could be symbolic either way.) --Masamage ♫ 00:47, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, but sadly, I still think it's the most conclusive piece of evidence out there, merely symbolic or not. Meteorie 00:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

As I said that's a quote from the original live journal page. I copy-pasted it so people wouldn't have to look at the link. If you'd like to dispute that part and add it, then do so. I'm trying to keep it fair and balanced and somewhat objective though. Also note that Sailor Cosmos said that Sailor Moon was the "real Sailor Cosmos" giving fire to the ability of both the failed overlay and her having the Cosmos staff top, just like Luna and Super Sailor Moon on the cover of a11 being back to back because Takeuchi said that she viewed them to have the same "soul" which doesn't translate literally in this case. This point of this page is to fairly represent all sides of the Cosmos debate on every piece of evidence raised. I do not wish to ship a certain theory over another. If you have a problem with what she wrote, bring it up to her. I can't edit what someone else wrote...--Hitsuji Kinno 14:16, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Another problem with the problems with that dispute: the picture of Sailors Moon and Cosmos layered together that didn't turn out correctly was a totally different image, specifically this one as noted here. So I don't see how that's relevant. --Masamage ♫ 00:50, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, regarding arguments about the appearance of Usagi's starseed, in the future Sailor Chibimoon inhereits the Ginzuishou anyway, and Sailor Cosmos' starseed is still in the cauldron in the timeline of the series. So it could still be Usagi, who receives a crystal other than the Ginzuishou at some point in the future which would revive her ability to transform into a soldier, and that is Cosmos' crystal. Usagi and Cosmos can be the same person and have different crystals. (I realize the latter part of that is a lot of speculation, but I only want to show how it is not impossible for Usagi to have a starseed different from the Ginzuishou)Meteorie 00:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

More agreeing. It's not verified anywhere, but it's totally possible. And it would account for things being "complicated" as Takeuchi said. --Masamage ♫ 00:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

The problem with that is that the Sailor Crystal is often "fused" to the starseed. The Starseeds are the souls of the people, the Salor Crystal as shown with the evolution of the pink moon crystal are fused to that crystal. I's often called a "special type" and the idea of souls is that there aren't more than one. Honestly, the crystal Lore page and the Timeline page need to be brought up to speed before this section fully continues. Sailor Cosmos brings in all fan theories and every part of Japanese culture and language into the debate. I've seen arguments from mythology, to arguing with the timeline, to Japanese language, etc. This argument was brought up, but later shot down by the list of quotes about "Sailor Crystals" being special starseeds. Plus the lack of evidence that any one person can have more than one soul, thus more than one starseed. And more evidence to the contrary. Dessa tried this theory out once and ditched it, I think it was her.--Hitsuji Kinno 14:16, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Also also, princess cut diamonds are square, not anything like the Ginzuishou, and Takeuchi never said that she drew Luna and Usagi back to back because they have the "same spirit". She said they have a "closely similar existence," "understand eachother," and if put in eachother's positions "would have taken the same actions with the same feelings." --Masamage ♫ 00:58, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I fixed that on the Crystal Lore page... I listed the cut. I'm fairly sure I saw a version of that jewel in the Crown Jewels of England when I was there, but I can't find it anywhere. (That might be good to include in crystal proper page). I made a bunch of userpages to feed this debate. I'm debating moving the translations to individual pages so this is easier to read because it's already getting huge and hard to read.--Hitsuji Kinno 14:16, 25 April 2007 (UTC)