Talk:History of women in the military

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Contents

[edit] Thoughts on the article

This article has been fleshed out considerably, but I think it still needs work in thinking about weasel words. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_words Other than that, its pretty good. Asarelah 17:52, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brand new article

The articles on the history of women in the military, and of the current debate in thier role in combat units, have been merged into one single new article.

This article will comprise of two sections:

1: The history

A brand new section devoted to the history of women in warfare.

2: The current debate

A re-written version of the existing debate article.

These changes come after discussion on the peer review page of the original women in combat article, which can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/Peer_review/Women_in_combat#.5B.5BUser:oldwindybear.7Coldwindybear.5D.5D --SGGH 19:03, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Treatment of women veterans

I wonder if there are issues relating to the treatment of women veterans that can be explored in thier own section of this article? [1]--SGGH 12:21, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Women on submarines

The statement that Australia was the second nation to permit women on combat submarines is just plain wrong. For example, the Swedish Navy has had women serving on subs since the 1980's. The fact that all countries' navies except for those of Australia, Norway, Canada and Spain ban women on submarines is also plain wrong. Apart from the aforementioned example of Sweden, the German Navy also permits women on submarines. There are probably more countries (I'm pretty sure the Danish navy permitted women onboard when they operated submarines, which they no longer do.), but those two are the ones I'm completely certain about from the top of my head. //83.226.220.153 01:38, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Cite some references and be bold. Jinian 02:15, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Is there any reason to keep the disputed tag? Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 18:56, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I've culled some of the editorialising in that section although I'm uncomfortable with the emphasis placed on the those four, it's a little OTT and I'd be quite happy with who was first.
The reasoning, hot bunking, was a little trite and tends not to be an official reason, just the usual dinosaurs. The main reasons for both UK and US Nuc operations is physiological, related to working in the vicinity of the kettle and the levels of gases in the atmosphere which have the potential to impact on foetal development before pregnancy is discovered. There are also operational reasons for both attack boats and bombers which owuld preclude removing a pregnant female. I'll track down sources for the physiological aspect.
ALR (talk) 19:11, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Not immediately running off for my respiratory physiology or occupational medical textbooks, I'm surprised by there being an atmospheric risk. Years back, I did some work for the U.S. Office of Naval Research that did deal with the atmosphere. There was a very strong reason to ban chloroflurocarbon aerosol propellants, since they poisoned some of the catalysts in the air scrubbers. As far as gender differences, there are very few occupational exposures, such as heavy metals, where the pregnancy issue arose, in which it was soon realized both genders needed protective equipment.
The one bit of comedy, in that study, came when the psychologists reported that the smell of fresh-baked bread had the most positive effect on morale, and the chemists came up with synthetic baking-bread smell. When the ONR admiral presented this to the chief submarine admiral, the latter asked "ummm...why don't we just bake bread?"
Other than setting the limit in a volume-cycled ventilator, I've never heard of a gender-related difference in ventilators used in intensive care.
For quite a few pharmaceuticals that have very high birth defect risks, such as isoretinoids or thalidomide (it's back for radically different purposes), there's a therapeutic contract requiring the woman use two forms of contraception, which is verified. Such an arrangement would be likely to neutralize any fetal danger. IIRC, it's been mentioned this is done with astronauts on flight duty. While Norplant is no longer marketed in the US, I know woman soldiers that make a point of having an IUD implanted before deployment.
In the interest of full disclosure, my mother was a WWII Navy metalsmith, and then a career Army reserve psychiatric social worker and hospital administrator. I sort of grew up with the assumption that any woman who could meet the physical requirements for a job could do it. While she wasn't especially strong, I wouldn't want to have been on the other side were she on sniper duty, with her patience, and just missing the cutoff for the Army Reserve national shooting team. Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 19:21, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
This is the UK, we aren't quite as draconian with our service personnel as the US. Our application of duty of care and health and safety is somewhat more rigorous as well. Pregnancy renders one unfit for sea service and the individual is removed shoreside at the earliest opportunity. HMG got stung quite badly in the early 90s over treatment of pregnant females in the military, mainly over lost earnings but one or two tried it on with respect to the missed chance for parenthood argument.
I'm not all that informed on the detail but the RNs position stated on their website is:
Service in submarines is closed to women because of medical concerns for the safety of the foetus and hence its mother. This restriction is purely medical and does not relate to combat effectiveness. The potential risks to the foetus do not arise from hazardous radiation, but from contaminants in the submarine's atmosphere.
The Institute of Naval Medicine (INM) reviewed the exclusion in 1999, as did subsequently both the Defence Scientific Advisory Council and Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists. Their outcomes supported the conclusions of the INM report, that the exclusion was justified.
There are a couple of other documents, but I'll need some time to track them down.
ALR (talk) 20:20, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] =new paragraph

I have added the paragraph from the submarine article as it seems to contain well-cited information on this topic. A couple of references were destroyed in the copying process but I'm on that now. SGGH speak! 18:42, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] edit of some unsourced statements, rewording of "Aliens" movie reference

recently removed 2 unsourced statements in this article: 1) that a US soldier was "abused" by her Iraqi captors, citation please 2) the dubious claim that female MP's are known as "lionesses"

also re-worded the final section about Sigourney Weaver in Aliens, as it was poorly organized and seemed to have been edited down from a longer section

[edit] sorry forgot to sign comment

Kaiser187 22:34, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Libya

Col. Kadaffi has what could be a "Amazon" detail serving as his bodyguards. 205.240.144.225 06:05, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Lioness Program

"Female Marines Train for Iraq Border Security" by Staff Sgt Raymie G. Cruz, 3dMAW

http://www.usmc.mil Cricket316 02:41, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References

I think it would be a good idea to set about fixing the references to give titles to each URL rather than leaving the plain html code. SGGH speak! 18:07, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] protect against constant vandalism

The main page is being continuously vandalized. I recommend blocking editing by all unregistered persons.

Syrenab 15:06, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:HMCS IROQUOIS.jpg

Image:HMCS IROQUOIS.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 23:02, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lionesses?

OK, seriously, I'm in Iraq right now and I've never heard of anyone call a female MP/SF, detainee handler, medic, driver, translater, or ordinary straight-up shooter a "lioness." This sounds like a word coined by a reporter that was never in common usage. Recommend more specific language. Instead of talking about "lionesses" for examples of female combatants, discuss the policy the Air Force has for females in their Security Forces. Or talk about how there are female MPs in every branch. Or site specific examples of females being attached to combat units (not limited to medics).

John Holden (talk) 16:21, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Women as noncombatants

This article seems to ignore the traditional view as women as noncombatants. That is how can we discuss the role of women in combat, if we ignore their role as "innocents" How is the role of women different from men? Men were traditionally the warriors. Societies either had an all male army, or a male and female army. I am not aware of any with an all female army, except the Amazons, a mythical all female race. Women as warriors is unusual, may not unheard of, but not the norm. That needs to be explained in the article. Rds865 (talk) 00:05, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

"Not the norm" in what way?
Feel free to bring in authoratitive references that will add the element you see as missing. Binksternet (talk) 07:14, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sense of honor

This article also ignores the argument that some honor codes forbid fighting women. Also, men are often considered duty bound to protect women and children. Examples of such as is letting them evacuate first and the phrase innocent women and children, always excludes men. Rds865 (talk) 00:17, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

If some codes of honour forbade fighting women, then that would be a great advantage to the side that employed women to fight. Those honour-bound not to fight women could then be killed/captured by women very easily, since they couldn't fight back. You're welcome to add this argument once you find sources for it. Geoff B (talk) 06:49, 29 April 2008 (UTC)