Talk:History of western typography/Archive 1
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[edit] Addition to Description of the typecasting process bucks scope of section
reposted from User talk:190.39.198.96
To 190.39.198.96. Your addition (reposted below) to Typography lies outside the scope of the section, A brief description of the type casting process, the text of which is concerned with type casting, but not punchcutting or compositing. That stuff belongs in Typesetting, Sort (typesetting), and punchcutting.
- The first step is to convey the inner spaces of the letter (known as the counters) by means of engraving tools, onto one end of a rectangular steel bar, which is then hardened by tempering. This bar is the counterpunch, which is used to strike a similar rectangular steel bar to produce the punch. Once the inner spaces have been transferred onto the punch, the rest of the characters features are completed, again by the use of engraving tools. Smoke proofs (made by depositing carbon onto the punch using a candle flame) are used to verify the progress of the engraving process.
- This punch is then used to strike a blank die of a softer metal, such as copper or bronze to make a negative letter mould, called a matrix.
- Thus, one counterpunch, one punch and one or more matrices are produced for every letter or glyph in the fount or font.
- The matrix is then inserted into the bottom of the hand mould, which is then clamped shut and molten type metal alloy (consisting of basically of lead, tin and antimony) is poured into a cavity from the top.
- When the type metal has cooled somewhat, the hand mould is opened and the cast rectangular block, approximately 4 centimeters long, consisting of the tang and the sort, extracted.
- The tang is later removed so the character makes type height and remelted. The different sorts can then be assembled into words and lines of text in a composing stick and tightly bound together to make up a page image called a forme, where all the letter faces exactly are type high (the same height, approximately 0.918 inches) to form an even printable surface of type. The forme is mounted on a press, inked and impressions made on paper to form the basis of letterpress printing.
I've snipped the text out and preserved it here, and reverted the article text back to the previous version
Arbo talk 16:35, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
- Dear James,
- Please excuse my momentary surge of enthusiasm, but I did read the section title properly, thus believe that your reason to reverse edit the changes I volunteered, highlights the very inconsistency that motivated these changes in the first place.
- I would suggest that you consider that the actual type casting process does not start with the production of counterpunches, punches and matrixes, but with the configuration of the mould itself, basically because very different types of personnel would be involved.
- The earliest work (in English), that I am aware of, that refers to this process is Moxon's Mechanick Exercises, whose descriptions, despite allusions to the contrary, point in this direction.
- Perhaps you might like to divide this section into two separate ones covering type design and type casting and then flesh them out accordingly to bypass the aforementioned inconsistency. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 190.39.198.96 Please sign your comments on talk pages by typing four tildes. For a registered user this will automatically print your user name and the date.
- ...believe that your reason to reverse edit the changes I volunteered, highlights the very inconsistency that motivated these changes in the first place...
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- I've removed the info on compositing from the restored original draft. Your edit exacerbated that problem by introducing info on the of production of counterpunches, punches, matrices.
- ...I would suggest that you consider that the actual type casting process does not start with the production of counterpunches, punches and matrixes...
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- It was you who added info on the production of counterpunches, punches and matrices. (plural of matrix is "matrices"). That's why I removed that info. The section originally opened with a brief intro to Gutenberg and his familiarity with letter punches and casting from matrices, included only to make the description of typecasting comprehensible..
- ..Perhaps you might like to divide this section into two separate ones covering type design and type casting and then flesh them out accordingly to bypass the aforementioned inconsistency...
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- No, it's fine as it is now. The history does not extend to covering Type design—at present is a stub requiring expansion into a full article. The nearest thing we've got is Punchcutting. Please put your info into Punchcutting, Type design, Typesetting or Johannes Gutenberg.
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- The complete Typography article is now larger than WP recommended maximum size, and as per another editor's suggestion the whole history section is about to be broken out into a new article, the History of typography.
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- Please do not twist reality, and please sign your comments on talk pages.
[edit] Addition to Gutenberg's Hand Mould section bucks scope of section
Dear 66.82.9.83, your addition (reposted below) to Typography lies outside the scope of the section, Gutenberg's hand mould, the text of which is concerned with the signifigance of Gutenberg's invention and the hand mould itself—but not punchcutting, or a critique of Gutenberg's invention, or the history of early printing in Europe. That stuff belongs in Johannes Gutenberg, punchcutting, or the history of printing.
- Gutenburg's key invention, the custom metal font, was the first practical means of making cheap copies of documents in small quantities needed to print a single book. The essential pieces of hardware and techniques that make a punch matrix process viable and profitable, the hand mold, fully hardened steel punches,matrices and type have been found later in the Low Countries, but no hand mold, punches, type or matrices have ever been found that was associated positively with Gutenberg. It was when the materials were all robust enough, that European typography broke away from its Eastern forebearers with a letter-casting process that needed no post-processing touch-up for each letter, as both Gutenberg and the Koreans are documented to have required. With the more robust process, huge printing runs were possible with modest investme, and paper became the bottleneck.
I've snipped the text out and preserved it here, and reverted the article text back to the previous version
Arbo talk 16:10, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] other views on Gutenberg's typecasting
- I suppose the other views on gutenberg's processes of preparing type need to be mentioned. -- the work by Blaise Aguera y Arcas and Paul Needham mentioned above on how he may not have actually cast his type in areusable metal mold. There's a good BBC discussion now at: http://www.open2.net/home/view?entityID=15601&jsp=themed_learning%2Fexpanding_viewer&sessionID=-1161237951933&entityName=object
& http://www.printinghistory.org/htm/news/national/needham.htm, and various other lectures to be found in Google.
- And I am a little puzzled by some of the interchange above--regardless of where it goes, should not the description of all of the stages of preparing type go together, and is this article not the place? More details can go in separate articles.
- To the non-expert, the need to distinguish the different stages --and their proper names--cannot be assumed. S/he will learn it from this aticle. DGG 00:49, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
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- The complete description of all the stages should go together—in a separate article on its own. The history is better off without it because by the time I've finished writing it there won't be room for any description of type founding.
[edit] color printing by Gutenberg
McKerrow has black and red, in the 15th=16th c. with red dying out in later ceturies as too complicated; I have never heard of blue from pre=20th. Is there red in the Gut. Bible? I know most copies have hand coloring. Source?DGG 05:13, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for your vigilance. Alexander Nebitt reckons the Fust and Shoeffer Psalter was printed in three colors "...throughout --- blue, red and black, A complicated method of inking the form[e]s made it possible to produce a two- or three-color job in one impression." And we both know the Psalter is not the same thing as the 42 line bible.
- Three colors sounds elaborate and a tad improbable, until you consider that Gutenberg and Shoeffer were aiming to do nothing less than improve on the work of scribes, and the best Medieval bookwork work of scribes had more than three colors...more like five or six ink colors for text, plus illustrations with many more colors than that.
- John Man says the blue inks were made with Lapis Lazuli. From my own knowledge of art history; Blue paint and ink made with Lapis Lazuli has been used by painters and scribes since at least classical antiquity, but it was rare and expensive, and used sparingly, only for paying comissioned works. Only in the 20th century did industrial methods produce cheap artificial blue pigments.
- Most sources say the 42 line bibles had red letters added after printing. I've taken out "His 42 line Bible was printed with three ink colors: black, red and blue." Stand by while I check more sources to see where that came from, if anywhere.
- Arbo talk 21:25, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Phaistos Disc
"Combining multiple types in a single punch-like device seems to have first occurred around 1700 BC. The mysterious Phaistos Disc found in Crete in 1908 may have been an early writing machine. 241 tokens, comprising 45 unique glyphs, are molded in relief on the face of the 15 centimeter ceramic disc. The true purpose of the Phaistos disc is unknown, but comparisons can be made with disc-based writing machines such as the Blickensderfer typewriter, and Dymo labeling machine."
- Checked the excellent article on it in WP. The article states "The inscription was made by pressing pre-formed hieroglyphic "seals" into the soft clay, in a clockwise sequence spiralling towards the disc's center. It was then baked at high temperature." and look at the illustration-- it could not have been a writing machine--it might be an example of more or less mechanical impression, but I think it should go out altogether. Incredible object, tho--indicates an entire literate civilization phase otherwise not known. DGG 05:37, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- I think 'comparisons can be made' could be clarified somewhat but I'm okay with it's inclusion. I'll do some inquiries/research and see if I can contribute some useful info. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:40, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Phaistos dish
- This thing has a misleading name. So-called "disc". It's a while since I read that article but I remember now, thanks for reminding, it is actually dish-shaped. "Italian archaeologist Luigi Pernier recovered this remarkably intact "dish"...". The real thing was a dish, but it's known as the "disc" and the first thing you see in that article is the flattened disc-shaped replica.
- And John Man calls it a clay "disc", never even mentioning the real object is a dish. :-)
- This account (not very comprehensive) supports the typo-view, but they only show the flat replica disc, omitting all mention of the original dish.
- The WP account says the symbols have been allotted unicode positions for any future digital font versions, but that doesn't make the original object a font.
- Right...I just downloaded the font from here. Install the font Everson Mono Phaistos on your computer and you can type with the symbols by copying them to the clipboard from the private use area of Windows character map. Kids! Make your own Phaistos disc at home. ;-)
- Rewrite
- Printing with multiple types seems to have first occurred around 1700 BC. The mysterious Phaistos Disc—a 15 centimeter ceramic dish-shaped object with 241 tokens printed into the surface—may have been an early form of "page" typography. The true purpose of the so-called "disc" is unknown. See also: Blickensderfer typewriter.
- Weasle version
[edit] The mysterious Phaistos "dish"
Combining multiple types in a single punch-like device seems to have first occurred around 1700 BC. The mysterious Phaistos "dish"—a 15 centimeter ceramic dish-shaped device with 241 tokens molded in relief (comprising 45 unique glyphs)—is probably an early Dymo labelling machine. Sure, put money on it. The true purpose of the so-called Phaistos "dish" is anybody's guess, but my friend Amanda heard that many believe it really is a primitive computer "floppy" disc. Also try: Chickenbacher typewriter.
- Surrealist version
[edit] The mysterious Phaistos "fish"
Combining multiple fish in a single fish-like device seems to have first occurred in the fish century BC. The mysterious Phaistos "fish"—a 15 meter ceramic fish-shaped device with 241 tokens molded in scales (comprising 45 unique fish glyphs)—is obviously a fish labelling machine. Sure, put money on it. The true purpose of the so-called Phaistos "fish" is anybody's guess, but my friend Amanda heard that many believe it really is a primitive computer "floppy" fish. Also try: Hackenbacher Nightrider.
[edit] Weight loss program
Is the article too detailed? I set out to make it exhaustive, but it does seem to be getting long with three centuries to go.
Any suggestions for scaling it down?
Arbo talk 18:39, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] suggested splits
1. Move prototypography to a separate articles. 2. Move China and Korea into a separate article to be developed further. (title??) 3. Woodblock printing, merge with existing woodblock printing article, and merge in bock printing as suggested there. 4. Refer to the paleography article, a very sparse article, because a great deal more is needed here, 5. remove general cultural material as in "Birth of modernism" & 19th c. 6. make 1800+ a separate article.
- now you'll be left with only 90% as much.
other comments: *there has to be some place to use "surrealist version,"
- I do not call copies made 1 at a time "printing" & I see no evidence for exactly how the disk was made, except the calligrapher must have planned ahead if it goes from the outside in.
- take a look at the print article
[edit] new page started
The History of typography in East Asia page has been started, and some initial content copied there. I'll be adding to it, and then its a job for the more expert.
- meanwhile, since it is not reasonable for the lead paragraph to start with a declared revisionist view but this paragraph especially must recognize consensus, the alternate positions have been specified. I hope they can be worded better, but its a start. DGG 05:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks, excellent. I'm with you on every edit so far.
- I'm about to add material on the 17th & 18th centuries. Planning to stop the western narrative at Bodoni (soon, tomorrow hopefully). Then I have to hunt up some samples to illustrate Italic to Modern. For practical reasons, because so many developments took place in the 19th & 20th, a whole separate article is definitely the answer.
