Talk:History of the steam engine

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Contents

The comments on this talk page, down to "New talk page created" were 'archived' here from steam engine, as they all relate directly to the text and subject matter of this article. In due course they should be archived here. This course of action was taken to assist with information retrieval in the future -- editors wishing to examine archive of talk about history topics being better served looking on this page. (EdJogg (talk) 16:59, 14 May 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Reverted Chinese steam turbine claim

I reverted text, added by an anon IP user, that the Chinese had developed a steam turbine by the seventeenth century. While this is not impossible, I've never heard of it and an online search turned up nothing. I'd like to know a bit more about this before we claim it here. For one thing, if this turbine existed, did it actually perform real work or was it another aeolipile-like demonstration? This affects the prominence we should afford such a claim. —Morven 16:47, Jan 20, 2005 (UTC)

Better late than never – this could refer to an invention by Ferdinand Verbiest, a jesuit missionary in China. [1]. As User:Morven suggests, it seems to have been more of a toy than anything else. --Old Moonraker 11:36, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thoughts of the king of Greece

Text added (highllighted):

Incidently 700 years earlier in Corinth, Greece, rail tracks were invented; however the Greeks never thought of putting the two together. The King of Greece at the time thought the invention was useless because they had enough slaves and it would be bad economicaly.

Which king of Greece was that? Can you provide a citation? Gaius Cornelius 23:06, 7 November 2005 (UTC).

"Incidentally, 700 years earlier in Corinth, Greece, rail tracks were invented; however the Greeks never thought of putting the two together."

I removed this text from the article. Firstly, it isn't referenced. Secondly, I amn't sure what the invention of rails has to do with the invention of the steam engine; rails were in use around the world for many hundereds of years before steam engines ran on them. If it can be referenced, and if somebody deems this particularly beneficial to the article then by all means put it back. Emoscopes 00:33, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ivan Polzunov

I didn't see him mentioned in the text, although separate article clearly states about his achievements a few years before Watt's

[edit] James Watt

Sorry, James Watt did not invent the modern steam engine, he invented an improved version of the condensing engine, and in fact patently (hehe) refused to use high pressure or drive a crank with his engine, things that are essential to any modern steam engine.

So, I changed the section to be more honest. --Regebro 22:05, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Seconded. Watt's "invention" was to separate the condenser from the cylinder, the article even mentions this later, so there is no reason that it should be contradicted in the preceding section.. Emoscopes 23:19, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
The reason he did not drive a crank is not because he "refused" to do so, but because of pattent infringement on the Newcomen engine. After the Newcomen patent expired, Watt engines started driving a crank. Dullfig
Watts original engines drove the shaft and flywheel via his own patent, the sun and planet gears. Emoscopes Talk 07:49, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
It was not Newcomen's patent. He operated under Savery's patent, but there was a patent on the use of a crank with a steam engine. Peterkingiron 20:56, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
'The increased efficiency of the Watt engine finally led to the general acceptance and use of steam power in industry'. Not so. A review of LTC Rolts' book on Newcomen will show that by 1800 there were many more Newcomen engines than Watts' condensing engines. The Boulton and Watt royalty was so expensive as to deter most users.

James Watt gets way too much historical credit for his superb development of Thomas Newcomens' engine.

Thomas Newcomen developed the worlds first engine to convert heat into useful mechanical work. He did it without government intervention or external finance. He did it without Savery - who later argued that Newcomens fire engine infringed his fire engine patent. Saverys' fire engine had no moving parts other than manually operated valves and represented nothing new.

Newcomen developed his engine between 1705 and 1712. The technical challenges he faced had no known solutions. When Newcomen developed his engine, there was no such thing as high pressure steam, first because there was no application and second because there was no way to build a boiler to withstand pressure. So it was atmospheric steam or nothing and therefore the power cycle of his engine had to be condensing. In 1705 there were no lathes, milling machines or any metal working machinery. Other than casting all else was performed by hand. This is a time when there were no over the counter nuts and bolts.

Newcomen's engine was so well received that it was present in greater numbers than any alternative for more than 100 years. That it was 50 years after Newcomens first commercial engine had started life when James Watt developed the first significant improvement is a testament to the genius of Thomas Newcomen.

[edit] Marquess of Worcester

It's possible that Somerset actually built an engine though I don't believe that's a certainty. He wouldn't have built it at Raglan Castle, though, since that was destroyed during the Civil War - it's more likely to have been at Vauxhall. Mucky Duck 11:40, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


No mention of the "Babcock & Wilcox Non-Explosive Boiler"

[edit] Watt v Gainsborough

In the Invention section, it is suggested that Humphrey Gainsborough invented the condensing steam engine while James Watt patented it. In the Use and Development section it is stated that Watt invented the condensing engine. A quick Google confirms that there are a number of sites crediting Gainsborough with the invention. If the external condenser was not in fact Watt’s original idea then it throws a rather different light on his achievement (and character.) Though, to be fair, Gainsborough ought to have had more sense than to show his idea to anyone before patenting it. Is there a definitive version of events? Whatever the truth of the matter, this article is currently self-contradictory as is the wider encyclopaedia. PS. I will also add this comment to the James Watt discussion. (Added 21 Feb 2006)

James Watt is the man who goes down in history. One could argue endlessly over who first came up with the idea of the condensing engine but Watt had been experimenting and tinkering with Newcomen engines since 1763. The James Watt article states that he began making improvements with regard to separating the condenser in 1765. The Gainsborough article claims he showed Watt the engine in 1768 and Watt patended it in 1769. Clearly something is amiss. However, Watt patented, developed - and with Boulton - succesfully built, marketed and refined the condensing engine into a practical industrial machine. So long as the article does not credit him with the original idea there seems to be little problem to me. Any suggestion of a slur on Watt's character does not belong in this article, or even on wikipedia IMHO. Emoscopes Talk 07:58, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oliver Evans

Oliver Evans invented the superpressure steam engine. Watt did next to nothing,and does not deserve mention.

[edit] George Stephenson

Where is George Stephenson in all this? I don't have a great deal of knowledge about the man, but I was led to believe that he created the first steam-powered locomotive, named 'Rocket'? It might not be the 'first' as such (or it could be, no idea), but surely he made a massive contribution to the field and therefore worthy of a mention here? MathiasFox 17:53, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

A common received notion is that George Stephenson invented the steam locomotive. The first locomotive to run on an iron road (a plateway) was built in 1804 by the Cornishman Richard Trevithick. The celebrated Rocket was a demonstration locomotive built in 1829 at the works of Robert Stephenson and Co. for the Rainhill trials and must have been about the 30th built. Rocket is nevertheless important as it showed that steam locomotives could reliably work public rail services. Robert, a contempory of Brunel was George's son and is a more important figure in the history of rail traction than his father. Other important pathfinders were another Stephenson locomotive, Planet of 1830 and Edward Bury's Liverpool built in 1829 too late for Rainhill and developed, also in 1830 to a configuration similar to Planet's. Bury was the first to employ bar frames that became universal in North America. Anyway, if you want to know more, just click on the links I've given you as here is not a place for a treatise on the steam locomotive.--John of Paris 01:33, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First Newcomen steam engine?

Could someone add appropriate dates to the Newcomen steam engine article please?

The steam engine article states that his invention was 1712, but the afore-mentioned page gives no dates as to when the first engine/s were built.

EdJogg 10:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More missing information

Some history from paddle steamer has got me puzzled. There is a reference to the French Pyroscaphe, which used a "horizontal double-acting steam engine driving two 13.1 ft (4 m) paddle wheels". This vessel is not mentioned in the steam engine history, yet it would appear to precede the first boat described.

Secondly, it mentions use of a horizontal engine, and having looked at steam engine, I cannot find confirmation on when the first horizontal engine was built and by whom. My understanding was that the horizontal engine was a much later development (19th century) as there were fears of uneven cylinder wear.

Thirdly, paddle steamer also mentions someone having had the idea of a steam-powered ship in 1543 – surely this deserves a mention here (unless someone creates a History of the steam engine main article to include this additional information...)

EdJogg 11:04, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

There's ten times as much history at steamboat and virtually none covered here! Still doesn't answer my earlier queries though...
Having already struggled (and so far, failed) to piece together the snippets about the history of steam-powered road transport development, these pages about water-borne steam power really do suggest that a page split would be a sensible idea. Steam engine would then concentrate on describing the various different types and significant components, as a 'main article', and History of the development of the steam engine (or something like it) would draw together the various different articles that include part-coverage of such matters. My reasoning being that the experiments and developments on land, on water, and in industry were cross-fertilising. It would be useful to see how steamboat development tied-in chronologically with Watt and Trevithick, for example. But it would also be useful to see the subject from both the history and technology viewpoints.
EdJogg 16:39, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cornish engines - recommended 'reading'

Someone recently added details about the Cruquius Pumping Station to the Cornish engine page. The new detail included a link to the original website for the museum, which contains a wealth of information about the Cornish engine there, including superb 3D simulations of this stunning piece of machinery (which drives eight pumps from one 3.5m diameter cylinder) and an exceptional animation showing the operation of the concentric-cylinder engine. Thoroughly recommend a browse around the website!

EdJogg 14:06, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] High pressure engine

It is not quite right to say that the high-pressure engine "displaced" the vacuum engine. It's not so simple as that because any use of a condenser means that there is some vacuum effect; moreover steam is still condensed in most modern installations. The Cornish System could be called a vacuum engine in the way that Watt's engines could be. Even Watt's earliest productions used low-pressure steam to push down on top of the piston instead of atmospheric pressure as did Newcomen's engines. Trevithick's Cornish system was pretty well identical to Watt's except that instead of 5-7 psi there were from 20 - 40 psi above the piston; steam was then transferred to the underside of the piston and condensed, creating a vacuum in exactly the same way. The pressure differential on either side of the piston was greater and that's what increased power, — about all the difference I can see. Engines working on the Cornish system have always been considered very efficient and many lasted into recent times until replaced by electric pumps that do not require permanent staffing. Sure Trevithick's "puffers" were driven by steam pressure alone, but in no sense could any of his productions be called "high-pressure" or "super-pressure" engines as I have seen them referred to in this discussion. As did Oliver Evans before him, Trevithick spoke of "strong steam".--John of Paris 12:58, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Early engines - a few facts and figures

I am just back from a spell in the U.K. where I managed to pull in visits to the Black Country Museum replica at Dudley, to the "investigative modeller", David Hulse and to the Crofton steam pumps. I spent a whole steam day watching the Dudley engine working and talking to the plug-man Mike Dunn who has considerable practical experience and enthusiasm for the engine. Mike introduced me to a leading figure in the design of the replica engine, Allan Carter who was also present. The outcome of all this is that it confirms what I have long suspected: that the key to understanding all these very early engines is the pump itself and it is on this point that right from the very beginning in the 18th Century there has been the least amount of solid information, attention always having being focussed on the engine side - as it still is. Anyway I have gleaned a few facts and figures that were lacking in WP up to now and I will try to incorporate them in the various relevant articles. Regarding the Newcomen engine, and continuing the discussion with Chenab, it is an indisputable fact that gravity plays a major role in its workings, as the power stroke of engine side does not drive the pump; this is a “pole” or “dead-weight pump” i.e. a force pump relying on its own weight and thus gravity for the downward pumping force (this is the first bit of information they give to all visitors at Dudley) The atmospheric engine produces only enough power to assure the return stroke and lift the weight of the gang of pumps, which could be quite considerable depending on the height of lift; to this you would have to add the resistance of drawing the water into the pump body by vacuum. In the Dudley replica, which for demonstration purposes has only a short lift, considerable weight had to be added to the pump rods. The Watt engine on the other hand, powered a lift pump. This was no doubt made possible by the relatively constant low steam pressure (about 3 psi) above the power piston combined with the vacuum below, making a pressure differential of about 15 psi (?). The power of a Newcomen engine was of course dependent on the weather and the barometer reading. Why the lift pump should have been adopted by Watt is still a mystery to me; even so his first production engine of 1779 working the Smethwick pump could manage almost 160 gallons per stroke, compared with the early Newcomen’s 10. This gives a rough idea of the progress the Watt engine represented for a comparable steam pressure - it did not just save coal. The updated Watt engine still in working order at Crofton, modified to the Cornish system, reportedly manages the same as its 1846 fellow by Harvey of Hayle - about a ton of water (224 gallons) per stroke. The latter, for reasons of ease of maintenance, works a force pump as did the Newcomen; originally both the pump and engine were double-acting, being later converted to single force-pump action in 1903. The two pumping systems can be seen at working side by side at Crofton with both engines working at 20 psi and appear to be about equal in output, but I would like more info on that. All the engines mentioned here, Newcomen’s, Watt’s and Harvey’s, had about the same stroke rate of about 11.5 - 12 per minute; It would seem however that the early Newcomen engines were not able to work continuously, but required occasional pauses to make steam so this would affect their overall pumping rate; even this was automated very early on (no later than 1719) by means of a “buoy” that rose and fell in a tube projecting from the boiler according to steam pressure causing the engine to stop and start automatically. The descriptions at the excellent Crofton web site [[2]] are well worth close study and they have also published a very informative brochure. For the moment at Dudley, there is only a large fact sheet available, otherwise I am adding new references to the relevant WP articles. David Hulse’s little books are particularly well researched, and a mine of information.--John of Paris 20:10, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hero of Alexandria and the early history of steam

Jagged 85’s recent contributions are welcome as I for one was not sure what to do about the previous edits by 80.60.82.167. For some time I had been thinking of looking for a broader approach of Heron’s treatise and including the devices referred to in the edits for opening and closing temple doors etc, but the question is: do these qualify as steam engines any more than a coffee percolator does? Whilst we can say that they did “useful” work, that work was done by gravity, water being transferred into or evacuated from a bucket by heating or cooling, varying its weight. One of Hero’s main concerns was the study of siphons and communicating vases and it is surely that side of his work that is most relevant to the develoment of the steam engine. The aeolipile seems to have served no useful purpose other than to rotate itself and create pretty vapour effects and I have always thought it a bit of an exaggeration to hype it up as the “first steam engine” as many authors have done in the past. Many have also called it a “toy” which I think is a mistake, as it does not take into account the context of the ‘’Musaeum” of Alexandria, the intitution for which the treatise was apparently written; the same applies to a lesser degree to “mechanical curiosity” in the WP article. Going back to the “coffee percolator question”: is the Worcester/Savery device strictly speaking an engine? Dictionary definitions of “engine” generally refer to “mechanisms” or “moving parts” of which these devices have none. Rather than race to claim which nation invented the steam engine - which is a bore, it would surely be better to get things into perspective as to the way steam technology developed. In this context, recent references to Taqi al-Din are certainly of interest and can perhaps be related to Branca's device of 1629.--John of Paris 09:44, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

By this logic, a piston engine that isn't connected to anything isn't a steam engine either. I think the fact that the steam gives rise to consistent motion, makes it an engine.- (User) WolfKeeper (Talk) 06:05, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
The Worcester/Savery device is a water pump. A rocket engine doesn't necessarily have any moving parts either.- (User) WolfKeeper (Talk) 06:08, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
As to who 'invented the steam engine' it depends...- (User) WolfKeeper (Talk) 06:08, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Aeolipile gives rise to consistent motion but no power output - that's what counts surely. Worcester/Savery engine used pressurised steam. the pressure differential on either side of the reservoir was greater, that's all. " Invention " of steam engine was incremental. --John of Paris (talk) 06:41, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

No, if I take any jet engine or internal combustion engine and simply bolt it down, it has no useful power output either; that doesn't make it not an engine. I thought I saw a picture of an aeolipile with a pulley on it somewhere.- (User) WolfKeeper (Talk) 08:38, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I think you are clutching at a straw here. What about the flywheel on the IC? - not needed on a steam engine, nor a temple door opener.--John of Paris (talk) 08:45, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Just try building one: I suspect it will squirt steam all over the shop, but doubt if it will shift the doors.--John of Paris (talk) 08:50, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I've built aeolipile's before, I learnt how to do that in physics class; via simple glass blowing. And there's no reason at all it couldn't do work. The romans didn't need to do that because they had slaves to do their work for them.- (User) WolfKeeper (Talk) 09:03, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Many people have built them, judging by the number of videos at YouTube. Is it a standard part of the curicculum in some locales? I was looking for a really good clip to link to, to show the device in operation, but didn't dig very deeply (so one hasn't been added yet). Would be interesting to see a video of a device driving something other than just itself...
EdJogg (talk) 11:33, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] More on very early sources

Took out text about Gerbert and Jacques Besson. Both these sources need more detailed research. Gerbert died in 1003; the 1120 date seems to come from Thurston [3]: 
‘’“Malmesbury states that, in the year A. D. 1120, there existed at Rheims, in the church of that town, a clock designed or constructed by Gerbert, a professor in the schools there, and an organ blown by air escaping from a vessel in which it was compressed " by heated water."’’ Until somebody takes the trouble to go further into this, for the time being I think we are scraping the barrel and should “include them out”. The same goes for Jacques Besson. Here is a translation of a paragraph in the French book “L’Aventure de la Vapeur” published by the CNRS in 1986 - ‘’“A professor of mathematics at Orleans, Jacques Besson, published from 1571- 1578 various works on mathematics and machines. Arago attributes to Besson a attempt to determine the relative volumes of water and steam. This affirmation seems rather rash and needs verification through deeper research.”’’’ (I think it is well worth following up). On the other hand I am for reinstating the recent reference to Taqi al-Din (reverted by user: 89.155.102.86 ) as the source is adequately researched. It should be noted that Taqi al-Din does not claim to have invented a steam engine; all he does is to describe what “people do”. The same is true of many of these early sources, including probably Hero of Alexandria. One thing is sure: it was long ago established that motive power could be obtained from steam pressure, also that condensing steam in a sealed container created a vacuum that could also be exploited. Whether Taqi al-Din or Branca’s apparatus merits the term steam turbine is a moot point to be discussed, but I think attaching the term “prime mover” to the former is going a bit over the top.--John of Paris 09:44, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I reverted the edit in question by user 89.155.102.86 (talk · contribs) before seeing this talk page. (Was offline on Sunday - big backlog in watchlist!) This user's edits in several articles consisted of 'unexplained deletions' and wikilinking almost random terms (I didn't follow them up, didn't see much point in most cases). From a WP POV they needed reverting -- I'll leave it to others to decide the action required from a 'steam engine' POV!
EdJogg 12:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Potter cord

I would question whether the details of the potter cord ought to appear in this general article. I acknowledge tha the story quoted exists, but like many legends, it is not necessarily correct. The identity of Humphrey Potter is known and he was associated with the early years of the steam engine, but (if I remember correctly) he was no a bou at the time in question. I would suggest that this detail should be removed from this article; a mention of it should be added to the newcomen engine article (if it is not there already); and possibly a separate article specifically on this subject should be written. Comments, please. Peterkingiron 14:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Agree: too much detail for the general article. Furthermore, when I responded to an earlier {{fact}} request to support the tale I noted more than one account of how the development came about. I used the most academic, but confidence in the source is not great. The story is in newcomen engine, citing the same source. --Old Moonraker 14:43, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
In any case the anecdote - which is what it is - should perhaps be taken with a grain of salt as it is not easy to associate lengths of string with action of the plug beam - more like clock escapement - can't imagine what little Humphrey would have tied to what... At the same time I undertand that the Potter family (of Oldbury, I believe) was long associated with the Earl of Dudley's mines.--John of Paris 19:19, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
It actually doesn't particularly matter whether it's true or not. It only matters whether the story is verifiable, and whether it is notable in this particular context. I think that it is both notable and verifiable, but YMMV.WolfKeeper 16:33, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trevithick's No. 14 Engine

There's not a shadow of doubt that the engine in the Science Museum is Double acting. I thought I'd edited the caption already, but someone seems to have reverted it. The semi-rotary valve is what is known as a 4-way cock connected to both ends of the cylinder[4]. This device was already very old in Trevithick's day and has been attributed to both Leupold and Papin but it may go back even further.--John of Paris (talk) 11:26, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

The engine was found in a South Wales scrapyard by Francis Webb and displayed at Crewe works until being donated to the Science Museum. The following article from the Scientific American supplement of 1885[5] contains the following statement: "The admission of the steam to and its release from the cylinder is effected by a four-way cock provided with a lever, which is actuated by a tappet rod attached to the crosshead, as seen on the back view of the engine." Not easy to see on the image as it stands, but a four-way cock goes with a double acting engine.--John of Paris (talk) 12:08, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Temple Doors opened by Fire on an Altar

I've just added "Temple Doors opened by Fire on an Altar" to the "Historical Overview" section, but although the device used heat, a sealed chamber and water it wasn't a steam engine and I'm not sure it should have a place. Any views, please? --Old Moonraker (talk) 17:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

It involves communicating vases filling and emptying buckets on the coffee percolator principle. Very ingenious and not so far from the Papin/Newcomen principle IMO--John of Paris (talk) 17:42, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ferdinand Verbiest

The steam car manufactured by Verbiest in 1672.
The steam car manufactured by Verbiest in 1672.

Would the steam engine developed by Ferdinand Verbiest in 1672 also deserve mention? PHG (talk) 06:28, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Looks like the same idea as Branca's and Taqi al-Din- a lot of steam and spray - not much else! Use your imagination!--John of Paris (talk) 06:44, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
The problem is that this is a general article, and is on the long side. There might be a case for forking off Precursors of the steam engine into a separate article, where there would be room for this. The presetn article is cluttered with a lot of curiosities of their time, which are of trifling historical significance. If the article wer a book they could usefully appear, but it is supposed only to be an encyclopaedia article. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:17, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Restructure needed of history section

At present the history section starts with a long description of the history. This is followed by a series of reasonably well-written sections on different developments. I would suggest that a good deal of this is too detailed for an introdcution and should be mereged inot more appropriate sections further down. I would suggest the following sections:

  • precursors - dealing with inventions and other novelties before the 1690s.
  • invention - covering Papin, Savery, etc.
  • Newcomen, including a subsection on later improvements to his engine
  • Watt - subsections on engines with a separate condenser, related devices (such as sun and planet motion), and his own improvements.
  • Strong steam - dealing with Trevithick and his successors.
  • (further sections as appropriate) Peterkingiron (talk) 17:10, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Well you've just opened a door--John of Paris (talk) 05:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Even so, the steam engine is so grossly misunderstood by today's youth; I think it really does need the full description -not just historical. --John of Paris (talk) 08:01, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
John, I presume you are still working on this restructure. Currently there are several significant problems:
  1. At some stage you have copied the text 'at the wrong level' - ie you did not open it as an edit window. Consequently you have acquired at least one rogue '[edit]' word in the text and you have lost your references. (Since there are some active wikilinks, this may have occurred at an earlier transition.)
  2. There is no 'lead' (1). From skim-reading the new paragraphs, it looks like we have some good text. I particularly like the 'water surrounded by fire' (etc) bit. Most of this needs to become 'the first section' with a suitable title (not just 'Overview' -- I quite like the idea of "What is a steam engine?", since it avoids the problematic word 'definition'.)
  3. There is no 'lead' (2). Like it or not, this article must start with some kind of simple 'definition' to be consistent with the rest of the encyclopaedia. We have to have a very good reason for not starting the article with something like: "A steam engine is a heat engine using steam as its working fluid." (for example). This needs to be as high-level and all-encompassing as possible. From recent experience it needs to avoid all the difficult or contentious terminology. Also, I think it only needs to be 2 or 3 sentences for now -- once the article structure has re-stabilised, we can re-visit it.
  4. It doesn't go far enough... I still reckon that the bulk of the history needs to be moved to History of the steam engine, leaving this page to cover some of the wider-ranging aspects (What it is, how it works, links to different types, modern usage, etc). I bumped into Cue sports last week, and this is an excellent example of a 'top-level' article that covers a huge number of topics through 'main' links. In particular, look at the level of detail covered by each section: one paragraph about the same height as a default-size picture. We could do a lot worse than to follow it as a model.
I hope this doesn't come across as too 'angry' or 'harsh', and I apologise for not yet reading your new submission in detail. This is a very hurried response to help you on your way. (I've got lots of non-WP stuff to do today, and reckoned I could afford 20mins at breakfast...I wasn't planning on having to tackle this today! I haven't got far with boiler (steam generator) yet! EdJogg's a very busy bunny just now...)
EdJogg (talk) 08:40, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Forking off History of the steam engine into a separate article sounds a good idea to me. What is left should be preceded by a "main" template, directing those who want more to it. A brief history (perhaps one paragraph) should be left in the article. This may need to be accompanies by a hidden comment asking people not to expand the section. As I have said before, I did something like this is articles on the hiostroy of the iron industry, and these have now reached a reasonably stable state. Peterkingiron (talk) 21:35, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New talk page created

Comments above this point were extracted from Talk:Steam engine. They were considered by me to be solely related to the History section of that article, and hence better served by being archived here. If it is felt that any sections really belong on the parent article, they should be copied back to that talk page.

Both talk pages should be archived 'soon', but this cannot happen until the major re-structuring has been completed.

EdJogg (talk) 16:59, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Good work on forking this part of the article. I have adjusted the headings slightly. I think that Trevithick's improvements to the Watt engine could conveniently be placed at the end of that section. The section on Watt's later engines looks rather short at present, and I have attached a "stub" tag to it. I would also like to see more on Trevithick's work and that of his successors: I presume there is more to come across from the other article yet. Peterkingiron (talk) 18:12, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Thank you. Working out a reply to you has convinced me that this History section has been a major obstacle to resolving the problems in the steam engine article as a whole. There is more to come from there, but it is not so obvious, nor as easy to extract. For example, Woolf and his compounding must be mentioned here, and what about developments to horizontal engines? Cornish engines are mentioned in passing, but the Bull engine is not mentioned at all. In fact, we only just get to Trevithick!!!
Hopefully, having the two articles separated should allow both to flourish. EdJogg (talk) 00:23, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Keep up the good work. You may well be right that having the history in the main article has hindered its development. I will continue monitoring progress. The 19th century is not my speciality. Peterkingiron (talk) 11:27, 15 May 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Further information

The Newcomen steam engine article contains additional information about precursors, Papin and Savery. That article could easily cope with being pruned slightly, with the detailed history being brought here (the existing sections here could be further sub-divided, such that Papin and Savery can have their own sections (with suitable 'main' tags). While you're at it, it is possible that there are details about the engine on the Thomas Newcomen page which are missing from the engine page itself! -- EdJogg (talk) 00:15, 16 May 2008 (UTC)