Talk:History of the single-lens reflex camera

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Contents

[edit] Factual changes

I've made various factual changes, courtesy of information in Nihon no rekishiteki kamera / The Japanese historical camera rev. ed. (Tokyo: Nihon Kamera Hakubutsukan, 2004). This book really ought to be more widely circulated; this would help dispel the (American?) myth that the Japanese camera industry was born around 1946. -- Hoary 15:39, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Some of us Americans know better! ;) --MurderWatcher1 14:42, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pentax control layout

We read: The Asahi Pentax established the control layout used on the vast majority of SLRs in the next 30 years. . . . While little on the F was truly new, it was a well-made camera, and adhered closely to the Asahi Pentax's control scheme which was quickly becoming a de facto standard.

What's all this about? What part of the Asahi Pentax control layout was innovative or influential? (Not the thumb-wind, surely: this had been introduced to Japanese cameras by the Pigeon 35III in 1952.) Meanwhile, the Nikon F adhered pretty closely to the layout of the immediately preceding Nikon rangefinder cameras (cf the odd placing of the shutter release button). -- Hoary 15:39, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

No response, so I made the changes that I thought were necessary. -- Hoary 05:57, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good changes, Hoary ...

I'm glad someone has access to better research material than I. Much of this stuff is not very well documented (at least in English-language sources I've access to) and many sources in print are simply inaccurate. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 22:22, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adding Olympus information

When I read the History of the Single-Lens Reflex entry, I was dumbfounded that no one had seen fit to record Olympus' contributions. So I added details of the OM-1, OM-2, OM-3 and OM-4. Mention of these cameras are important because of their unprecedented influence on the overall design and direction of SLR cameras specifically and broadly.

[edit] Took out this paragraph as it was too opinionated

The phrase:

"The electronic AE SLR also killed the German camera industry when the Germans failed to keep up with the Japanese. After ailing throughout the 1960s, such famous nameplates as Contax, Exakta, Leica, Rollei and Voigtländer went bankrupt, were sold off, contracted production to East Asia or became boutique brands in the 1970s."

was taken out by me because, grammatically, you can't "kill" an industry! You might "destroy" an industry but, grammatically and technically, an industry is not a person.

Indeed, while a number of german camera makers were forced to cooperate with the japanese because of their marketing successful camera designs, understand that "Voightlander" is a brand-name that has currently been "resurrected" by Cosina and they are using that name on an excellent 35mm rangefinder camera with very fine optics that is currently selling well. Also, Leica has made the transition to digital with the M8, a digital rangefinder camera using their M-mounts lenses, continuing the manufacture of the Leica R9 SLR which can now accept a Leica-made digital back; all of this while also manufacturing lenses for the Olympus four-thirds system, which Panasonic also contributes lenses to and has manufacturing ties also with Leica.

Rollei is still manufacturing medium format SLR's and some D-SLR's with digital backs so why call them 'bankrupt'? Where is the source-information on that? Okay; Contax is now currently out of production. Understand that the camera body was being produced by Kyocera, a japanese camera manufacturer who has ceased all camera production to my knowledge. I will miss the Contax RTS, the G2 and the 645 medium format camera systems as, they were fine instruments. Now who manufactured the lenses for the Contax cameras? Zeiss-Ikon, of course, and they are now currently making a few lenses for the Nikon camera system! I never thought that would ever happen. Exakta? Exakta survived for a good while and there may still be a 'cult' following for this camera. Okay, some say that the camera looked 'crazy' or whatever, but it worked! Anything that works gets an "okay" by me. Is it out of production? Yes, I think so, but in the manufacturing world of photography, don't be surprised if someone else "resurrects" the name, just as is done with the 'Argus' name, to give just one example.--MurderWatcher1 21:02, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Restored Sentences
I have restored the two sentences, because they are true. Zeiss Ikon contracted Contax camera production to Japan (Yashica); Ihagee went bankrupt and the Exacta brand no longer exists; Leica is a boutique brand now owned by the luxury goods maker Hermes, Franke & Heidecke contracted Rolleiflex SLR production to Singapore, but went bankrupt anyway, although it managed to re-organize; and Voigtländer (company, not name) was absorbed by Zeiss Ikon. In the 1970s, when the Japanese camera industry lept forward, the Germans fell further and further behind and almost disappeared. The German camera industry is a tiny portion of the whole today, when it was almost the entire world industry in the 1930s. You may quibble with the grammar, if you wish. However, correct it, don't delete it. Paul1513 20:58, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
  1. understand that "Voightlander" is a brand-name Not only isn't it one, it never was one. Meanwhile, "Voigtländer" is in effect used as a brand name by two companies, one of them Cosina.
  2. Now who manufactured the lenses for the Contax cameras? Zeiss-Ikon, of course, and they are now currently making a few lenses for the Nikon camera system! Yashica (or Tomioka) and thereafter Kyocera made most of the Zeiss lenses for the Contax SLR, and Cosina makes most of the Zeiss lenses in Nikon mount (example), if not all of them. (Which one does Zeiss make?)
  3. Exakta? Exakta survived for a good while and there may still be a 'cult' following for this camera. Exakta cameras are indeed still being used; you may wish to apply the word "cult" to this phenomenon. For that matter, Petri cameras (for example) are still being used (I put a roll through my little Color 35 a couple of months ago), but this doesn't mean that Petri isn't dead. Exakta is dead too, though the brand name is I think still occasionally applied to this or that mediocre Chinese product.
  4. grammatically, you can't "kill" an industry! You might "destroy" an industry but, grammatically and technically, an industry is not a person. There's not the slightest grammatical error in talking of "killing an industry". (There isn't a grammatical error even in a semantically bizarre notion such as killing a film plane.) Somebody might claim that there's a lexical error, but I'm pretty sure that Google would show the claim to be mistaken. -- Hoary 23:10, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Okay, gentlemen, (Paul1513 and Hoary), let's compromise. Minor modifications to the sentence would be as follows, and please leave your thoughts here:

"The Japanese electronic AE SLR effectively ended the German camera industry when they failed to keep up with their Japanese counterparts. After ailing throughout the 1960s, such famous nameplates as Contax, Exakta, Leica, Rollei and Voigtländer went bankrupt, were sold off, contracted production to East Asia, or became boutique brands in the 1970s."

--MurderWatcher1 16:21, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
The modifications are fine by me. I don't wish to give the impression that I was trying to offend you, MurderWatcher1; I just thought the sentences were fine. You also asked about sources. If you can wait a week or two, I can post a complete bibliography for the entire SLR Chronology section. I just need to get it organized into a presentable form. Do you want to see it? It will run at least forty or fifty items. I think I can footnote each and every entry too. That will be even harder and might take a month, especially since I still haven't exactly figured out how Wikipedia does footnotes. Paul1513 18:38, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. No, I didn't feel offended by your comments, and 'yes', Paul1513 I would very much want to see this material. If you can, you can probably attach it as either a Word document or a PDF to the discussion portion of my user page. FYI, I was going to get my old photography magazines out and use those as reference/source materials myself. If you look on the Single lens reflex page, on the discussion board you'll see some discussions I've had with User:Dicklyon. By the way, in the current issue of Popular Photography, (the November 2007 issue) writer/photographer Herbert Keppler has an interesting column titled "Inside Straight" and in this issue's column (not yet online unfortunately) the title of the article is "Rating Game", subtitled "Why and how photographers went crazy testing lenses".

The article discusses the history of japanese products compared to german products, specifically Nikkor lenses versus Zeiss lenses. Very interesting mention of David Douglas Duncan. I'll put the agreed upon edit in although Hoary hasn't responded yet.--MurderWatcher1 19:05, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Added Considerable Wikipedia Links to the 'See also' section

I have added a lot of links to the 'See also' section of this 'History', however I just noticed that a number of these references are contained in link so, if anyone feels that this work is just a duplication of effort, etc. please feel free to delete some of these entries. I just had a case of 'editing-frenzy' and didn't notice this until too late.--MurderWatcher1 20:54, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Remove Gomz Sport from Chronology?

Simonjwall has recently posted that the Gomz Sport did not come out until 1937 and therefore was most definitely NOT the first 35 mm SLR. Since this slim possibility was the Sport's only claim to fame (Simonjwall agrees that it was a technological dead end), I'm thinking that its Chronology entry should be deleted, if this stands. Any Sport defenders with contrary info? Paul1513 (talk) 21:33, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First autodiaphragm?

Järnvarg recently said that the Praktica FX2 of East Germany, 1956, is the "first camera in the world to use automatic diaphragm." This doesn't seem right, because the Graflex Super D had an autodiaphragm in 1948, and it wasn't the first camera to have one. If anyone knows for sure, please correct this point. Otherwise, I will probably delete it in a few days. Paul1513 (talk) 22:12, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I have deleted the Praktica FX2 Chronology entry, because it was not the "first camera in the world to use automatic diaphragm." The Gamma Duflex was the first internal semi-auto diaphragm 35 mm SLR and the Zunow SLR was the first fully auto diaphragm 35 mm SLR.
I have also deleted the Pentacon Super (1968) entry because first 35 mm SLR with interchangeable viewfinders, TTL meter plus full viewfinder exposure control info is too conditional to be significant. It was also released in 1966. (The first full info viewfinder SLR of any type is apparently the 35 mm, external metering, leaf shutter Contaflex Super B of 1962.)
I have also deleted the Zeiss Ikon SL706 (1971) because the demise of the Germany camera industry is noted elsewhere.
I have edited the Takumar 15mm (1975) entry to explain aspherics and exclude extraneous info.
Järnvarg is correct that the Praktica Electronic (1966) is the "first camera with an electronic shutter" if he meant electronically controlled focal plane shutter. I have deleted my incorrect Contarex Electronic (1967) entry and moved the Contarex comments to Contarex (1959). Paul1513 (talk) 21:14, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
I have deleted 190.40.124.215's Canon EOS 5 (1992) Chronology entry "first SLR AF camera with eye control focusing." Although Eye Control Focus is technically interesting, it was never a common SLR feature adopted by other companies and therefore not significant. Canon has even dropped the feature from their digital SLRs. Paul1513 (talk) 18:03, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Alpa 9d and the first TTL metering camera

Someone needs to go back and fix a couple of things. The Alpa 9d was released in Europe commercially in 1963, and made it to America in 1964. Robust, it contained 3 cds cells and thru the lens metering. And most specimans that were at all cared for still work today. Thus, Pentax Spotmatic can not be the "second thru the lens metering camera" in 1964. There is the ongoing question of wether Alpa or Topcon was first in 1963. The Alpa is often overlooked due to it's generally low production numbers. 71.43.0.34 (talk) 01:38, 5 April 2008 (UTC)James Eager

I have two sources saying the Alpa 9d came out in 1964; one is specific that it was the third TTL light meter SLR, released after both the Topcon RE Super and the Asahi Pentax Spotmatic. In addition, the Alpa 9d's meter was uncoupled; a technological oddity less convenient than the RE Super and Spotmatic's coupled TTL meters that advanced upon the Zeiss Ikon Contarex's coupled non-TTL meter. Pignons' first coupled TTL meter did not arrive until the Alpa 10d in 1968. If this is wrong, please correct it and add an entry for the Alpa 6d. Just be sure to note its "out of continuity" uncoupled meter. Paul1513 (talk) 17:31, 2 May 2008 (UTC)