Talk:History of the periodic table

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1 Naming
2 Questions about history: From numbered sequence of elements to number of protons
3 Importance
4 Organizing / Cleanup
5 Credit Revert War
6 WikiProject class rating
7 Broken Link
8 Original table?
9 Good illustrations for history of the discoveries
10 New structure for the article

[edit] Naming

"Periodic table history" sounded weird to me, so I moved to what seems a more natural title. If anyone disagrees, you may of course move it back. Isomorphic 14:18, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I chose Periodic table history because from Periodic table it brached from as Periodic_table_whatever. It's fine the way it is now, though. Goog 12:58, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- In general, it's a strong WP principle that articles don't have parents and must make sense of their main topics on their own, so try to avoid thinking "what is this a branch off of?" (I'm a wanton violator of the principle, for having made so many branches and levels of List of people by name#Direct links to pages of names, but IMO LoPbN is so far from being a real article (it's a navigational tool, like a dab or redirect) as to be an "exception that proves the rule" by showing what it takes to justify violating the rule.) I mention that partly in the spirit of the discussion below of what else could go in this article.
--Jerzy·t 07:31, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Destiny Day rocks she is the one to get in touch about the periodic table at pinkfroggy12@yahoo.com I suggest this article be expanded to indicate how people were able to tell the difference between elements and chemical compounds. That is, what was the criteria for inclusion of a given substance into the periodic table? Psychonaut 05:12, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

IMO that would involve the mistake of confusing the table with the modern concept of element, as if just bcz the table is our favorite way of listing the elements. Chemical element and Atomic weight are titles that should bear more directly on this (IMO) very article-worthy topic, and History of chemistry should include more about the law than is appropriate in this talk page's article. Modern history of element isolation or Atomic theory in chemistry may even be worthwhile.

--Jerzy·t 07:31, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This article should expand more on the periodic law. --Jasonn 20:06, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No, IMO. Periodic table could do so, and i'm not sure that it is excesssive to treat periodic law (which should not in any case redirect here), separately from the table. But history articles should focus on the dynamics of getting from one discovery to another, and not on laying out the logic of the final synthesis.

--Jerzy·t 07:31, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Questions about history: From numbered sequence of elements to number of protons

(Moved questions from Talk:Helium)

One form of Mendeleev's periodic table, from the 1st English edition of his textbook (1891, based on the Russian 5th edition)

When was helium identified as the element with atomic number 2 in the periodic table of elements?

This periodic table from 1891 (Image:Mendeleev Table 5th II.jpg) does not list helium, nor does it leave an empty slot for element number 2. The result is that all elements beyond hydrogen are given an "atomic number" one less than the number of protons. -- Petri Krohn 02:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

In fact the table is missing all noble gases, so there are other gaps in the table. Question number #2 is thus:

When were the noble gases added to the periodic table?

-- Petri Krohn 03:07, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Helium was discovered about 30 years later, if I recall. I don't feel like looking it up, but it does mention it in Helium's article. It was discovered as part of the sun. Most of the other noble gases were found sometime later, as they are quite difficult to find, seeing as they are almost completely stable and do not react.

[edit] Importance

I'd like to set the importance of this article. I'll start it off at 'High' but feel free to discuss. -DjD- 13:08, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Organizing / Cleanup

I'd like to see an effort to significantly cleanup this article. Currently the article doesn't really flow:

In Beginning
List a Couple People
1st Table
List a Couple More People

I'm thinking of structuring it more like this:

Chronological Overview
Element Discoveries (elements that impacted the development of the table)
Important People

Anyone have an opinion on this? Do you think this would help? -DjD- 03:21, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree this current article is in a bad state. The scientific history is poor too and sweeps past important chemists. I'm going to set up a Chronological Overview in the next few weeks so that I have something to work off when reforming the article. -- ScepticalChymist (talk) 13:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Credit Revert War

Will you two knock it off? You're not getting anywhere. How about discussing here out in the open for others to comment on? -DjD- 01:25, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 09:54, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Broken Link

refrence 9 about the larges table doesn't link correctly, i dont have the time but can someone fix please —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.253.85.155 (talk) 07:51, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Fixed. DMacks (talk) 18:58, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Original table?

Could someone add Mendeleev's original table (or provide a link)? The image shown is (as noted) not the original one, since it contains the three predicted elements. Also, why would he have described scandium as "eka-boron"? The latter is aluminum which was discovered much earlier.--Roentgenium111 (talk) 15:41, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Boron and scandium are both in group 3 in the old and nearly forgotten short form of the periodic table. You can see a depiction of if here: [1] (Mendeleev placed boron in what would now be group 3A in this figure, in the same group as scandium, instead of 3B, which is the same group as aluminum). --Itub (talk) 18:50, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the answer. But the link doesn't work for me.--Roentgenium111 (talk) 21:03, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Strange that the link doesn't work anymore. Anyway, here are a couple of links to short periodic tables on britannica.com: [2], [3]. Plus, here's a version from a translation of Mendeleev's book that I found on Commons, so we could use it for this article: --Itub (talk) 09:12, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Good illustrations for history of the discoveries

For see the table with the main discovery periods:

Before 1800        1800-1849       1850-1899       1900-1949       1950-1999

http://old.iupac.org/reports/periodic_table/index.html

we may be use as a JPG or Wiki (if put into small).

Time of Discovery

Before 1800

1800-1849

1850-1899

1900-1949

1950-1999

1
H
1.0079

2
He
4.0026

3
Li
6.941

4
Be
9.0122

5
B
10.811

6
C
12.011

7
N
14.007

8
O
15.999

9
F
18.998

10
Ne
20.180

11
Na
22.990

12
Mg
24.305

13
Al
26.982

14
Si
28.086

15
P
30.974

16
S
32.065

17
Cl
35.453

18
Ar
39.948

19
K
39.098

20
Ca
40.078

21
Sc
44.956

22
Ti
47.867

23
V
50.942

24
Cr
51.996

25
Mn
54.938

26
Fe
55.845

27
Co
58.933

28
Ni
58.693

29
Cu
63.546

30
Zn
65.38

31
Ga
69.723

32
Ge
72.64

33
As
74.922

34
Se
78.96

35
Br
79.904

36
Kr
83.798

37
Rb
85.468

38
Sr
87.62

39
Y
88.906

40
Zr
91.224

41
Nb
92.906

42
Mo
95.96

43
Tc
-

44
Ru
101.07

45
Rh
102.91

46
Pd
106.42

47
Ag
107.87

48
Cd
112.41

49
In
114.82

50
Sn
118.71

51
Sb
121.76

52
Te
127.60

53
I
126.90

54
Xe
131.29

55
Cs
132.91

56
Ba
137.33

57-71

72
Hf
178.49

73
Ta
180.95

74
W
183.84

75
Re
186.21

76
Os
190.23

77
Ir
192.22

78
Pt
195.08

79
Au
196.97

80
Hg
200.59

81
Tl
204.38

82
Pb
207.2

83
Bi
208.98

84
Po
-

85
At
-

86
Rn
-

87
Fr
-

88
Ra
-

89-103

104
Rf
-

105
Db
-

106
Sg
-

107
Bh
-

108
Hs
-

109
Mt
-

110
Ds
-

111
Rg
-

La 150.36

57
La
138.91

58
Ce
140.12

59
Pr
140.91

60
Nd
144.24

61
Pm
-

62
Sm
150.36

63
Eu
151.96

64
Gd
157.25

65
Tb
158.93

66
Dy
162.50

67
Ho
164.93

68
Er
167.26

69
Tm
168.93

70
Yb
173.05

71
Lu
174.97

La 150.36

89
Ac
-

90
Th
232.04

91
Pa
231.04

92
U
238.03

93
Np
-

94
Pu
-

95
Am
-

96
Cm
-

97
Bk
-

98
Cf
-

99
Es
-

100
Fm
-

101
Md
-

102
No
-

103
Lr
-

[edit] New structure for the article

Discovering elements: "dicoveries table" illustration (sugest centered jpg)
In the beginning

(Before 1800)
1. Antoine-Laurent de Lavoisier
1800-1849

... Not published discoveries...?
1850-1899
1. Alexandre-Emile Béguyer de Chancourtois
2. John Newlands
3. The first periodic table
1900-1949
1. Henry Moseley
2. Glenn T. Seaborg
1950-1999

--Krauss (talk) 19:20, 9 April 2008 (UTC)