Talk:History of the graphical user interface

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1 Older discussion
2 X window System section caption
3 Focus
4 X11 & FVWM95? It's a joke?
5 History of the GUI article on Ars Technica
6 Merzouga Wilberts
7 In the Windows Vista part
8 GNOME & KDE
9 Patent or ©?
10 What about HTML?
11 Why is Windows Vista separate from Windows?
12 XGL & AIGLX
- 12.1 Added
13 AmigaOS
14 Extensible GUI
15 PLATO
16 Anachronism
17 Nuked a para from the Amiga section
18 References
19 Fair use rationale for Image:3DPlugin.jpg
20 Fair use rationale for Image:Amiga Workbench 1 0.png
21 Reestructuring of the first level in chapters to help a historic narrative
22 Fair use rationale for Image:Metisse on KDE-look.jpg
23 Fair use rationale for Image:AcornArthur110desktopsmall.png
24 Fair use rationale for Image:GeOS Commodore 64.png
25 3D User Interface
26 Fair use rationale for Image:On Line System FJCC 1968.jpg
27 Fair use rationale for Image:MacOSthemeonSelect.png
28 Fair use rationale for Image:Microsoft Windows 1 01 screen.png
29 Image copyright problem with Image:BeOS Desktop.png
30 Early GUI?

[edit] Older discussion

The organization of the intro par. of this article is absurd. Windows is not the culmination of the GUI, of which all other GUIs are merely predecessors. Also rest of this article is sloppy and NPOV. Guess I'll put this on my to-edit list, unless someone else gets to it first. k.lee 19:36 Oct 20, 2002 (UTC)

What surprised me the most was this line:

'Windows Vista will also be the first version of Windows where the graphics card will be used to draw the desktop'

As opposed to what, a dot-matrix printer? A more correct wording would be 'the 3d engine on the graphics card' or something alone those lines; Windows has been using 2d graphics card acceleration engines for at least half a decade, and of course no version of Windows could display graphics without using the graphics card at all.

NPOV is a good thing. Perhaps you mean POV? --mav

Should be fixed now. Tempshill 23:05, 21 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Is there meant to be any order to the items in this page? They seem to be at random... they're neither in alphabetical nor date order

I went through and attempted to chronologically sort. Tempshill 23:05, 21 Oct 2003 (UTC)

No mention of NEXTSTEP? // Liftarn

I was going to. I guess I can put some info in now :) Dysprosia 09:24 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Can an OS/2 expert revisit the statement that WPS was a "radical departure" and that Windows 95 imitated "much of this"? I find this hard to believe from a user's standpoint. Perhaps the meaning is that it was a radical departure for developers utilizing GUI elements? If from a user's point of view it was really a radical departure, can someone describe what was the departure at least? Tempshill 00:50, 22 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Recent overhaul of Amiga stuff is good, but now feels a little over the top - in the overall scheme of things it is an interesting, but not especially important example, IMO. Also, as it stands there is a lot of POV stuff in there - for example praising the ability to run in "only" 256K - remember, original Mac had half of that, and was also a more complete GUI. GRAHAMUK 11:39, 24 Nov 2003 (UTC)

This article got a mention in the newspaper, The Guardian (London) )January 15, 2004) Pg. 20. Pity they got the URL wrong :) --Imran 16:56, 27 Jan 2004 (UTC)

From memory , I *thought* the RISC OS GUI design was heavily borrowed from NeXT STEP (to the point where Acorn called their machines "personal workstations"), Can anyone confirm or deny this? 80.126.238.189 10:52, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Just from looking, they have some similarity, but I wouldn't be swayed to say so. Dysprosia 10:58, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

As the dork who made the massive overhaul on the Amiga entry, I agree it was over the top, though I was also hoping/counting on a 'disinterested party' editing it down to what seemed most novel. (FWIW, while the Amiga was severely limited with 256k... and I was almost going to note the 512k all models were 'instantly' upgraded to, but figured what the hey, the edit sucked already ;) ... don't forget how limited the first Mac was after it loaded the Finder, and it could only support one other process anyway. Far prettier, yes, but how else was it 'more complete?' Then again, I think 'resources' are a mixed blessing.) To me, the 'drawers' are a useless point, but someone else felt them important, so I tried to preserve all that cruft. (I have no idea how or where to tell the tale of the 'usability testing' that went into the palette choice, but it's a good anecdote of what 'usability' engineering really entails... someone else should feel free to research that and wedge it into a more related article, perhaps.) Amiga really comes down to "multitasking" and "multimedia," two human-factors breakthroughs we take for granted today, but people will perpetually argue that "doing multiple things at once" is just a CS problem with no human-factors impact, and "multimedia" means squat, while explaining it as "could do pretty much everything you could do with Win95, ten years earlier" comes off as baiting.

Er, anyhow, I used OS/2 more than I ever did the Amiga, and while the history there is a mess (first versions were 16-bit DOSalikes for the then-new 286s, WPS didn't appear until slightly later, IBM's idea of what it was supposed to be didn't settle until at least 2.0), the 'radical departure' was the inclusion of a proper desktop metaphor, plus the 'templating' that Apple introduced with the Lisa but the Macintosh foreswore. While capitulating to Apple may not have been very innovative, they beat every other x86 "OS" product to the party by a few years; Microsoft was still pushing the Program Manager (only a menu of programs, albeit a pretty drag'n'drop one), Be didn't exist yet, and everything else (GEM, GeoWorks?) still ran atop DOS and didn't, er, 'need' to be a complete OS.

More generally... I'd like to see everyone pay more attention to the issues that shaped our interaction (and, um, the state of the planet) in the legal domain; the GEM lawsuit is quite important, and the Amiga RMB-menu dodge is interesting because it not only kept the stupid platform alive long enough for 'kids' like me to discover and wail about it, but probably played a tangential role in the evolution from static menus to 'context' ones -- IBM 'stole' or independently developed the idea for OS/2 while Apple was still on the war-path, reversing the mouse buttons by default so a right-click selected for drag and a left-click drove a context menu -- and that's the real /history/ of how we stumbled from Point A to Point B.

The Stardock Systems guy provides a little more OS/2 perspective here; don't forget that IBM scared everyone off both by Being IBM and charging ludicrous prices for their development kits... MS were still the 'little' guy, Big Blue was the monopoly du-jour.

-- Anonymous Peon (Fri May 7 09:06:40 UTC 2004)

---

Me again, tried to be less heavy-handed with Windows, still too much information to convey in too small a space. Getting really curious about the way the whole look-and-feel thing... and/or independent design "missteps"... delayed convergence on the unified desktop metaphor... and of course, there's backpressure from the Start-Menu, Taskbar, and Dock crowds now that we did converge on this one GUI Esperanto. (Personally, I consider this an unsolved problem, as you can see when one subset is pleased by 'spatial' desktops, but the other half bemoan the loss of 'browser' interfaces that are more efficient with screen real-estate and allow that little bit of 'CLI' with the path entry field.) ... Anyhow, given that, maybe I can whet someone else's curiosity by noticing it, and beg some fact-checking, editorial consensus, independent insight?

-- Anonymous Peon (Mon May 10 03:11:05 UTC 2004)

--- So, I'm trying to trace the contributions of various organizations in enhancing the GUI. I can't find any definitive references, so please correct me. Here goes:

- SRI: Mouse, bitmapped display, windowing, object selection - Xerox PARC: Overlapping windows, icons, direct manipulation paradigm, desktop metaphor - Apple: gestural interface (click-and-drag)

Who developed contextual (right-click) menus first? I know they were in OS/2; was IBM first? What about WYSIWYG, as it applies to printing?

--Exia

Even before the SRI work, there was the Sketchpad prototype. It was a partial IMP instead of a WIMP. There were only function icons, and no document icons, not even the generic ones which came up at Xerox PARC and even less the true, completely editable document icons which the Mac folks invented. Still, Sketchpad had an impressive light pen as a pointer, and a limited menu capacity. There is much more on it out on the Web, starting with the original thesis. AlainV 02:54, 2004 May 25 (UTC)

Wasn't NExTStep UNIX and X based? I remember the screen being black and white, but X supports monochrom monitors. Did NextStep use X as the underlying window system? Since other window systems were/are X based (KDE, Gnome), shouldn't it be listed earlier in the text.

69.5.156.155(rld)2004 June 17

NeXTSTEP is based on OpenBSD, rather then Unix itself. The GUI/windowing system is not based on X, but on Display PostScript. This is similar to how it remains in Mac OS X, though display postcript is now replaced by a smaller subset known as Quartz, married with PDF as a metafile format. Graham 03:27, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Uhhh, no, NeXTSTEP is based on Mach. However, 3rd party software provided X servers so you could run X apps on NeXTSTEP or OPENSTEP. Dysprosia 03:29, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] X window System section caption

I want a vote on this, which do you consider to be the better caption?

"An X-Window Desktop" or "X11 desktop running the fvwm95 window manager."

Which one is more intelligle to you? Which one has more meaning? For the layperson, which has more jargon?

My vote is for "An X-Window Desktop" to be displayed on the thumbnail. I had that as the caption and added "X11 desktop running the FVWM95 window manager" to the fullsize picture but the author of the caption, David Gerard reverted my changes within 2 hours.

I put this here to avoid an edit war. VOTE NOW!

As I said in my edit, your removal violated the policy at Wikipedia:captions. Furthermore, voting is not the first resort you appear to be using it as; it's a last resort if discussion does not reach some sort of rough consensus. As such, calling for a vote is grossly premature.

(The section on X needs a complete rewrite in any case - X has any number of "interfaces", because X is a platform for interfaces rather than an interface itself.) - David Gerard 15:53, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Would you please tell me what "policy" I "violated". Unlike you I consider an edit war to be the last resort.

Speaking of policy I'll highlight this bit from the revert page:

"A revert is the advised action to deal with vandalism. Where you think an older version of a page is better than the current version, a revert is sometimes appropriate. Sometimes, though, it's better to write a third version that takes the best bits of the other two, and combines them to get the best of both worlds. <-------- this is what I did

Note that reverts are not appropriate if a newer version is no better than the older version. You should save reverts for cases where the new version is actively worse.

Regardless, we strongly recommend against heated revert wars. Instead, have a look at our advice on staying cool when the editing gets hot."

The caption as was implies to the reader that this is the X interface. This is simply incorrect; if used in this article, it should say in this article that this just happens to be fvwm95. Sending that off to the image page itself is not a good idea in the context of the article - it's important and relevant so as not to mislead the reader.

That said, as I said, the notion of "an" X11 interface is fallacious, and the section needs a rewrite. Have a look at the illustrations on X11 - three different desktop environments under two different operating systems. (It should probably have twm as well.) Putting those in would make this section a bit less worse - David Gerard 13:44, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I hope you find the time to rewrite the section (or anyone else if they're inclined) I felt strongly about not including the terms (and shouldn't FVWM be in capitals?) because I thought "what's this X11? and what's fvwm95"? I thought some uni student doing unix was trying to show off their knowledge or something. I was originally going to put "An example of an X Window desktop" but thought that was too long and shortened it to "An X Window Desktop". I guess the aim of wikipedia isn't to get hot under the collar so I'll consider my work done.

[edit] Focus

I think the focus of this article is rather strange. It focuses too much on the technical implementation side of the UI's, and not enough on the human interface part of it. The article needs a review by a knowledgeable interface specialist. — David Remahl 12:56, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, it lacks such thing such as the crucial role Larry Tesler (who went from Xerox PARC to Apple at that time) played in doing, after hours at Apple, semi-informal usability tests that defined the basis for the early Mac Interface. I think that Tesler's work was at least as important as Raskin's earlier contributions. But what do _you_ think is missing in the human interface part? We can't wait for more knowledgeable persons to come and look over the article. They might never come. We have to start patching it up ourselves. This is why I am asking your opinion on where to begin. Look at it this way: If there is at least a start of an effort at a more balanced view then "knowledgeable interface specialist"s might be more inclined to correct it than if it looked hopeless. --AlainV 16:46, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I know, I know, you can edit this page right now. It's only that I have so many things I need/want to do. I noted the possible omission on the talk page to raise others' awareness of the problem, but I'll also make an effort myself. Perhaps I can even find an expert who's willing to take a look, since I know a few. I've added the page to my (growing) todo list. I didn't have specific suggestions of what to include before. My suggestion was just a general reflection on the style after reading through the article. But, off the top of my head, some things it should include:

The placement of menus, compare different systems, relate to research
Window management, such as windows that collapse to just a title bar in Mac OS, windows that minimize to the task bar in Windows and various virtual display systems in Unix systems.
How icons have evolved
Non-window/menu/icon based GUIs
Scrollbars (proportional, set size)

Perhaps some of these things would fit better in an "evolution of the graphical user interface", with this article being just a quick summary of the different OSes.

— David Remahl 17:38, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] X11 & FVWM95? It's a joke?

X11 & FVWM95? It's a joke? It is pure Windows running WindowMaker in cygwin emulator!!

Comment: What are you talking about? The first versions of X Windows was made around 1984 for UNIX, and thus predates MS Windows by far... As for FVWM95, it's a version of FVWM2 that has been remade to look more like windows. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.225.105.62 (talk) 18:06, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History of the GUI article on Ars Technica

Something to compare this page to could be an article just published on the Ars Technica site http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/gui.ars. I think it's been influeneced a bit by wikipedia (I notice a few screenshots are the same as ones I dug up a while back) - Diceman 11:49, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merzouga Wilberts

Who/what is that? These words are mentioned in the "Xerox Parc" section, but I can't find other references to them using search engines. -- Tuxlover 29 June 2005 17:35 (UTC)

I think it's a joke, or perhaps an experiment intended to disprove the claim that factual errors in Wikipedia articles are quickly corrected. If the latter, the experiment was evidently a success.

[edit] In the Windows Vista part

Aero will also be the first version of Windows where the graphics card will be used to draw the desktop Maybe that should be rephrased in some way? :) Can't come up with anything myself, sorry. --217.157.167.102 13:04, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] GNOME & KDE

Shouldn't these two GUIs be mentioned here? I'd say they are just as notable as BeOS and OS/2 Warp. Jacoplane 18:55, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Also a discussion of other less common X environments under the one that spawned them, like ROX under RISC OS. (Not just any X window manager; only those that have a distinct operating environment.) To the end user they're way more important than what underlying system draws the graphics onto the screen, and god knows trying KDE out for me is about as big a change as running Windows/Mac OS X in terms of what I get. — Felix the Cassowary 23:39, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Patent or ©?

But this can only be considered a rumor, as all copyrights on windowed GUIs were property of Xerox at that time.

Shouldn't this be patents? Copyrights protect implemetations, patents protect ideas. There's difference. --logixoul 12:40, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Changed it. But unsure whether I'm right. --logixoul (is not watching anymore) 13:43, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] What about HTML?

Don't HTML-based UI's fit into the picture here somewhere? Sure the early ones were very crude, but then we had applets, flash, DHTML, etc. Now there seems to be a push to rich internet applications that are based on a number of different technologies.

I think that the history is incomplete without some discussion about how the web interface has evolved over the last 12 or so years. Bernfarr 09:07, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. --logixoul 15:57, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't that be another page? it certainly offered nothing new over existing graphical user interfaces and to this day it's much clunkier than even the oldest GUI systems. Lost Goblin 17:19, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I guess its relevant enough to justify a sentence or two (similar to what you wrote). OTOH I agree that it'd be better on a page on its own. --logixoul 13:07, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why is Windows Vista separate from Windows?

Can anyone explain why there are separate sections (that are no co-located) for UIs of the same basic "heritage", such as Windows vs. Windows Vista/Aero, and the various iterations of the Apple interface? It would appear that someone wanted them to be roughly time-sequential, but (IMO) that way lies madness, as after Vista, we'll have a post-Tiger (Panther?) section, etc, etc. It would seem that a historical/modern split, then a creator split would make more sense than the current ad-hoc ordering. -- Gnetwerker 00:53, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Also, the section reads like advertising. I tried to fix it up some. Per your complaint I'll move it back under "Windows". Ashibaka tock 00:03, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] XGL & AIGLX

Should AIGLX and XGL be mentioned, or no because they're not very functional yet? — a thing 08:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Added

I added a section in about 3D desktops Metisse/XGL/AIGLX. I didn't want to go into the politics (Vista, etc.) but I wanted to stick to what is currently generally available. I also mentioned DirectFB, which is not but is an interesting technology which probably will be more available in the future.

Probably need expanding and possibly updating with a current state of affairs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grahamsbrain (talk • contribs) 10:41, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] AmigaOS

AmigaOS had the capability to run Workbench either in its own window or as a backdrop window (as a full-screen app on the screen, without window decorations) right from the start, with AmigaOS 1.1. This had nothing to do with genlocking and the like.

The above is also incorrect. Starting with 2.0, the user had the option to have disk icons placed in a window rather that directly on the background (the only option in up to 1.3). What the article most likely refers to is the "screen" concept. Intuition allows multiple screens that can be be dragged and moved vertically exposing underlying screens. For example, you could have certain games running full screen, and when you dragged their screen down, it exposed Workbench again. The OS implemented this by switching the video memory pointer on certain raster lines. In any case, all of this has nothing to do with genlocking.

[edit] Extensible GUI

Missing from the various sections is the important topic of extensible GUI technology, such as OpenDoc and OLE Automation. That's a major issue. There is a whole industry based on writing extensions to Microsoft Word, for example -- speech recognition, language translation, etc. Those all work by dynamically modifying the GUI of Word. DonPMitchell 10:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] PLATO

Missing from this is a kind of great grandfather of GUIs, the PLATO system. Now, I read that you refer to GUIs as windowed environment, that it is multi-tasking, and that one uses a mouse ordinarly. I would argue that each of these things has antecedents in the PLATO system. I would like to offer the page on it in wiki and to point out that you can actually use the legacy code preservation simulation client at www.cyber1.org. No, PLATO is not anything that OS X, Vista, Ubuntu or even the Lisa was, but it was part of the development history. Please see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PLATO_System —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.24.41.154 (talk) 22:08, 31 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Anachronism

The article states that Windows was modeled on the Mac OS (released in 1984) while early builds and screenshots of Windows were available in 1983. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.241.236.224 (talk) 06:36, 4 January 2007 (UTC).

Microsoft had early access to the Mac, starting circa 1982, IIRC. They were one of the primary developers Apple was courting.

[edit] Nuked a para from the Amiga section

Workbench is also used on the Amiga as a metaphor for their own standard of "desktop" as opposed to others, such as "Macintosh Finder". Workbench itself is another library or process. Rumors said that this concept of modularity was invented by Commodore to treat Workbench as a window amongst the others in the desktop, in order to avoid reprisal from Apple. But this can only be considered a rumor, as all patents on windowed GUIs were property of Xerox at that time.

The first part of this is nonsense, as the Mac Finder was always an actual process (yes, even back in 1984, it was just another process -- one that you could replace if you so choose, and had a better choice...). The Xerox-holds-all-the-patents line is patently untrue. And why talk about a rumor here?

The Amiga section in general seems a little out of control. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.34.156.186 (talk) 21:32, 8 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] References

How come there are no references in this article? Not even one? Rees11 01:27, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

tthe place where you put all the computer devices.

a place where you store all the virius from the computer.

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[edit] Reestructuring of the first level in chapters to help a historic narrative

I've built on the previous changes to ordering by adding a top level separation in chapters, that IMHO helps to follow the article as a unified "history of GUIs" and not just a collection of historys of individual projects. Hope this enhances the article.Diego 00:09, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] 3D User Interface

Why aren't Compiz or Beryl mentioned in the '3D User Interface' section, while Windows Vista that's mostly 2.5D is mentioned?

After all, Compiz and Beryl are the first really useful 3D desktops. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.225.105.62 (talk) 18:14, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

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[edit] Early GUI?

I think DATAR may have used one of the first GUI's

Matt (talk) 22:38, 10 June 2008 (UTC)