Talk:History of the United States Democratic Party
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There has been a lot of old-fashioned popular history that needs correction in light of modern scholarship. I have tried to remove the errors re 19th century and provided a full bibliography. Rjensen 05:59, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
This page is in serious need of being worked on. It is making grand claims that are not supported by any citations. Serious POV problems!
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- exactly what claims are unsupported? Rjensen 20:54, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] When should the history article end? 1992??
What is the natural dividing line between history and current events? I suggest 1992. Rjensen 11:20, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
- There's no reason to arbitrarily stop the article at some date. "History" includes everything up until the present day. You shouldn't blank significant portions of an article without discussion. I have restored the 21th century section. --JW1805 (Talk) 21:15, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Is there no introduction to this wikipedia article?
Is this the only article on wikipedia that leads with a bullet?
If no one objects, I'll write a brief article intro. BusterD 22:45, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Strength of Parties 1977
This table is kind of hard to read. What's the purpose, and if we're going to show 1977, shouldn't we show other years as well? Chadlupkes 16:15, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
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- the table for 1977 provides an excellent benchmark on the eve of the Reagan era. Other years should be added (when people find the data). Rjensen 17:35, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] 7.2: 1980s Battling Reaganism
The Democratic Leadership Council was created in 1985; therefore it was not in response to landslides including 1988. AlaButterfly 06:58, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] hey
The Democratic Leadership Council was created in 1985; therefore it was not in response to landslides including 1988. AlaButterfly 06:58, 20 August 2006 (UTC)....duh!!!!! <3 kylee. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.241.138.98 (talk • contribs)
- I fixed that a long time ago in another article, but didn't think to check here or forgot to. Fixed. Settler 13:49, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Uhm...
This article is very POV, and paints a portrait that suggests the Democratic Party had been established in the 18th century, where in truth the history before the 1830s is very much debatable. Sadistik 08:33, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Uhm (whatever that is supposed to mean), the article describes the origins of this party in the 18th Century. There is no question that factions of the old Democratic-Republican Party founded the modern Democratic Party. This neutrality tag is unwarranted, and unless the author can defend it better, I'm going to remove it shortly. Griot 15:39, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- The Democratic-Republican Party was the only party in America for a brief period of time. In the 1824 elections, all four main candidates ran on the D-R ticket. Yes, some Jeffersonians founded the modern Democratic party, but the Republican party history article does not include the Whigs, nor should it. This article should start with the disintegration of the D-R party and the formation of the modern Dems. Otherwise, it's blatantly POV and insinuates that the modern Democratic party has been around since Washington's presidency. Sadistik 15:12, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- There is a direct link between the D-Rs and the modern Democratic Party; no such link exists between the Whigs and Republicans. The Reppublican Party did not grow from factions of the Whig Party. As the Democratic-Republican Party article notes, the United States Senate in 1991 passed by voice vote "A bill to establish a commission to commemorate the bicentennial of the establishment of the Democratic Party of the United States." And Thomas Jefferson Randolph, the eldest grandson of Jefferson, gave a speech at the 1872 Democratic National Convention and said that he had spent eighty years of his life in the "Democratic-Republican Party." The modern Democratic Party clearly grew out of the D-R party. There is no POV here. Griot 15:42, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- It was passed by a Democratic-controlled House of Representatives which has been trying to claim that descent for skatyeight years, making that their POV. One could state that they claim descent from the D-R party, but to state it as fact is taking a side and is un-WP. Try getting that passed after 1994, Gingrich would have never allowed it. Moreover, I'm certain that none of the Congressmen in 1991 had been members of the original D-R party or even knew anyone who had been members of that party. Also, there were no other parties at the time, which is what you don't understand. Everyone was a Democratic Republican, not just the people who later became Democrats. Even the people who would form the Republican Party were members of the D-R party, which is why you had four D-R candidates for the Presidency as I mentioned above. No Whigs, No Anti-Federalists, nothing. After the party effectively imploded, The National Republican Party was formed by members of the former Adams faction, while the Democratic party was, as mentioned, formed by members of the former Jackson faction. It's not so cut-and-dry as to compare it to, say, Vlaams Blok and Vlaams Belang, which was a simple continuation of another party. It's more like comparing the German NPD with the former NSDAP. Was Andrew Jackson's grandson a Democrat? Definitely. Did he have a right to speak for the already defunct Democratic Republican Party? No. In their last days, there were numerous factions and no one could speak for the party. It was simply his POV. Sadistik 19:07, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- That's simply not true that there were no other parties at the time. The Federalist Party, for example, pre-dates the D-Rs. I mention the 1991 vote because it illustrates what is a common belief -- that the Demos grew out of the D-Rs. I don't even think Gingrich would contest this historical fact. You can argue that the D-R's ideas and the modern Democrats' ideas are quite different or that the party is not in tune with its founders, but that's not the point here, as parties evolve over time. It is an historical fact that the modern Demos evolved from the D-Rs. I'm getting the impression this is an idealogical matter for you, when it shouldn't be. Today's Republican Party, for example, is quite different in idealogy from the party of 1855. Griot 19:16, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- I never said that the Federalist Party never existed, but it ceased to exist in 1816. Also, I'm not talking ideology. It's simply not true to say that the Democrats were a continuation. They were a new party created in 1832 whose leaders made up one faction of many in the defunct D-R party. The founders of the National Republican Party (and later Whigs) were yet another faction of the same D-R party (The Adams faction, to be specific). I'm not proposing to call Whigs the GOP, and likewise, I don't think it's accurate to call D-R's modern Democrats. A few sentences about how the Jacksonian's created a party amidst the chaos of the power vacuum should suffice. Sadistik 20:28, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- If a faction of the Whig party had evolved into the GOP, or a faction of the National Republican Party had evolved into the GOP, I would have no objection, in an article about the history of the GOP, in saying that the GOP's origins were in the Whig or National Republican Party. Similarly, as a faction of the D-Rs formed the nucleus of the Democratic Party, how can you object to describing that in this article? It's history. This is not an idealogical question, but an historical one. (You wrote above, "there were no other parties at the time, which is what you don't understand." I pointed out that the Federalist Party did exist at the time.) Griot 03:59, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
- My objection is not at the mention of the D-R. Three paragraphs about the D-R party is unnecessary. If someone wants the history of said party, they can click a link in the article instead of including POV statements that state that the Democratic party is a continuation of a Washington-era party. The Federalists existed UNTIL 1816. In 1824, which was my example, the Federalists were already gone and America was a one-party state. Sadistik 05:16, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
- Major points of view are supposed to be represented on Wikipedia, Wikipedia:NPOV policy stands for neutral point of view, not no points of view. The party now called the Democratic party has maintained throughout its history its the continuation of the old Republican Party, something acknowledged by authors or scholars to varying degrees. Theres always been factionalism in the Democratic party and others resulting in multiple presidential candidates being nominated from the same party at times (Whigs 1836, Democrats 1860, etc.) or the rise and disintegration of a coalition party (like the National Union Party of Lincoln). When the Federal party stopped acting nationally in 1816, many of its members began calling themselves Republicans but did not convert to Jeffersonian principles, instead choosing the promotion of the American System. Nationalist Republicans and these Federalists that did not convert principles became the National Republicans. The party purists who supported the old caucus system that nominated all previous party presidents and/or supported the old principles of the 1790s of a more limited government and objected to elements of the American System (identified with Henry Clay) called themselves Republicans and later Democrats as they took up Crawford and next Jackson as their presidential candidate, deferring to Jackson's desire that the caucus system come to an end. I began construction of this PDF a long time ago compiling some quotes in regards to the evolution of the party name and the thoughts of some of the people from the time period as well as later people of prominence. When I'm not ill like I am now I'll be adding more cites to this article when time and health permits. Settler 06:43, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
- My objection is not at the mention of the D-R. Three paragraphs about the D-R party is unnecessary. If someone wants the history of said party, they can click a link in the article instead of including POV statements that state that the Democratic party is a continuation of a Washington-era party. The Federalists existed UNTIL 1816. In 1824, which was my example, the Federalists were already gone and America was a one-party state. Sadistik 05:16, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
- If a faction of the Whig party had evolved into the GOP, or a faction of the National Republican Party had evolved into the GOP, I would have no objection, in an article about the history of the GOP, in saying that the GOP's origins were in the Whig or National Republican Party. Similarly, as a faction of the D-Rs formed the nucleus of the Democratic Party, how can you object to describing that in this article? It's history. This is not an idealogical question, but an historical one. (You wrote above, "there were no other parties at the time, which is what you don't understand." I pointed out that the Federalist Party did exist at the time.) Griot 03:59, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
- I never said that the Federalist Party never existed, but it ceased to exist in 1816. Also, I'm not talking ideology. It's simply not true to say that the Democrats were a continuation. They were a new party created in 1832 whose leaders made up one faction of many in the defunct D-R party. The founders of the National Republican Party (and later Whigs) were yet another faction of the same D-R party (The Adams faction, to be specific). I'm not proposing to call Whigs the GOP, and likewise, I don't think it's accurate to call D-R's modern Democrats. A few sentences about how the Jacksonian's created a party amidst the chaos of the power vacuum should suffice. Sadistik 20:28, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- There is a direct link between the D-Rs and the modern Democratic Party; no such link exists between the Whigs and Republicans. The Reppublican Party did not grow from factions of the Whig Party. As the Democratic-Republican Party article notes, the United States Senate in 1991 passed by voice vote "A bill to establish a commission to commemorate the bicentennial of the establishment of the Democratic Party of the United States." And Thomas Jefferson Randolph, the eldest grandson of Jefferson, gave a speech at the 1872 Democratic National Convention and said that he had spent eighty years of his life in the "Democratic-Republican Party." The modern Democratic Party clearly grew out of the D-R party. There is no POV here. Griot 15:42, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- The Democratic-Republican Party was the only party in America for a brief period of time. In the 1824 elections, all four main candidates ran on the D-R ticket. Yes, some Jeffersonians founded the modern Democratic party, but the Republican party history article does not include the Whigs, nor should it. This article should start with the disintegration of the D-R party and the formation of the modern Dems. Otherwise, it's blatantly POV and insinuates that the modern Democratic party has been around since Washington's presidency. Sadistik 15:12, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
The Conservative Party (UK article has a long section about he party's origins in the 17th Century Tory Party. There is absolutely nothing wrong with explaining one party's origins in another party's history. This neutrality tag is completely unwarranted. Hashaw 14:12, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Confusing sentence
"...anti-monopoly, and proponents of laissez-faire." needs to be fixed. It's unclear.--jenlight 23:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] What is a "white ethnic"
The term "white ethic" is used as a noun several times in the section on the 1980s. What is a "white ethnic"? Readin (talk) 15:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
