Talk:History of the Republic of Macedonia
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[edit] Shory history of the Republic of MacedoniaShort history of Macedonia Although Macedonia is a young state which became independent in 1991, its roots run deep in the history. The name "Macedonia" is in fact the oldest surviving name of a country in the continent of Europe. Archaeological evidence shows that old European civilization flourished in Macedonia between 7000 and 3500 BC. Macedonia is located in the center of the Southern Balkans, north of ancient Greece, east of Illyria, and west of Thrace. The ancient Macedonians were a distinct nation, ethnically, linguistically, and culturally different from their neighbors. The origins of the Macedonians are in the ancient Brygian substratum which occupied the whole of Macedonian territory and in Indo-European superstratum, which settled here at the end of the 2nd millennium. Ancient Macedonia The history of the ancient Macedonian kingdom begins with Caranus, who was the first known king (808-778 BC). The Macedonian dynasty Argeadae originated from Argos Orestikon, a city in located in south western Macedonia region of Orestis (App.,Syr., 63;Diod. ,VII, 15; G. Sync., I, 373). Alexander I "Philhellene" (498-454 BC) expended the kingdom and by the 5th century BC the Macedonians had forged a unified kingdom. Alexander was a Persian ally in the Greek-Persian wars. As Macedonia appears on the international scene, the first coins with the king's name on them are made. Around the year 460, Herodotus sojourns in Macedonia and gives an interpretatio macedonica of the Greek-Persian wars (Her.5.17-22, 9.44-45). Alexander’s son Perdiccas II (453 - 413 BC) worked on starting a war between the Athens maritime power and Sparta which lead the Peloponnesian League (Thucydides.Pel.I.57) and initiated the creation of an Olynthian league from the Greek colonies neighboring Macedonia on Chalcidice, for a war against Athens (Thucyd.I.58). During the Peloponnesian War, Perdiccas is one moment on the side of Athens and the next on the side of Sparta, depending of Macedonia’s best interests, not wanting either of them to become too powerful, while keeping its country’s sovereignty at the expense of the Greek quarrel. It was Archelaus (413-399 BC) who made Macedonia a significant economic power. Archelaus made straight roads, built fortresses, and reorganized the Macedonian army (Thucyd.II.100). He moved the Macedonian capital Aigae to Pella and founded Macedonian Olympian Games in Dion (the holy city of the Macedonians), among other reasons also because of the fact that the Greek Olympic Games were forbidden to the barbarians, including the Macedonians as well (Her.V.22). In the year 406 the Macedonian poet Adaius wrote an epitaph for the grave stone of Euripides (Anth.Pal.7,5,1; A. Gellius, Noct. Att, XV, 20, 10) who was staying in the Macedonian palace of Archelaus. Euripides besides the apologetic work "Archelaus" also wrote the well known play "Bachae" inspired by the Macedonian cult for the God Dionysus. The Macedonian council refused to give Euripides' body to his birthplace Athens (Gell.Noct.Att.XV.20). During the years 407/6 Archelaus from Athens received the titles proxenos and euergetes. Amyntas III reigned 393-370/369 BC and led a policy of exhausting and weakening of the Greek city states. His two of his sons, Alexander II and Perdiccas III, reigned later only briefly. Alexander II however, had an expansionist policy and invaded northern Greece. In Thessaly he left Macedonian garrisons in the cities and refused to evacuate them. The Thebans who were at the time the most powerful militarily intervened and force the removal of the garrisons. Alexander II's youngest brother Philip was taken as hostage to Thebes. After the death of Alexander II, his other brother Perdiccas III took the throne. But Perdiccas III was killed with 4,000 of his Macedonian soldiers in a battle with the Illyrians, and Amyntas' third son, Philip II now became the next Macedonian king. Philip II (359-336 BC) the greatest man that Europe had ever given (Theop.F.GR.H. f, 27) liberated and unified Macedonia and turned it into the first European Power in the modern sense of the word - an armed nation with a common national ideal. He subdued all of Macedonia's neighbors (Illyrians, Thracians, and Greeks), and made Macedonia the most powerful kingdom in the Balkans. He was especially brutal towards the Greek cities at the edge of Macedonia. He razed them all to the ground, including the major Greek center of Olynthus, and Stageira, Aristotle's birthplace, and sold the inhabitants to slavery. In 338, the Greeks unified to prevent Philip from penetrating southern Greece, but the Macedonians defeated the Greeks at the battle at Chaeronea. Philip became a hegemon to the Greeks who had no choice but to ratify his peace agreement koine eirene. The Greeks had to swear that they would obey the conditions and that they will not rebel, not only against Philip, but also against his successors as well. The four Macedonian stratigical garrisons at Corinth, the Theban Cadmeia, Chalcis on Euboea and Ambracia, were a guarantee the Macedonian hold of Greece. This mutual peace - koine eirene dictated by the conqueror, was not a league at all (it did not have the word symachia), but a fiction which was to disguise Macedonian dominance in Greece, a temporary institution for including the Greek polis in the monarchy much more easily. But the conqueror of Greece was assassinated before he could lead the Macedonians in the conquest of the Persian Empire during the wedding celebrations of his daughter Cleopatra. His son Alexander III the Great (356-323 BC), succeeded his father at the age of 20, and immediately put down the rebellions of the Thracians, Illyrians, and Greeks, who revolted upon hearing of Philip's death. In Greece, he razed the major center of Thebes to the ground after a slaughter of 6,000 people and sold its 30,000 inhabitants to slavery, as warning to the Greek what would happen if they were to rebel again. Next, at the head of Macedonian and allied Greek, Illyrian, and Thracian troops, he invaded Persia. The Greek soldiers did not participate in any of the battles because they were hostages for peace and a guarantee for safety of the Macedonian occupation forces in Greece. Not only did they not have an important role in any of the battles but there were no Greek commanders either since the Macedonians commanded their ranks. Alexander's victories at Granicus, Issus, and Gaugamela put an end to the Persian Empire, which was then replaced by the Macedonian Empire stretching between Europe, Egypt and India. From this time until the arrival of Rome, the Macedonians will shape the events in this vast space for almost 3 centuries. Alexander's death brought the Macedonian leading generals into a terrible conflict over the rule of the Empire. But first, the rebellions of the Greeks were put down with the massacres of the 23,000 Greek mercenaries in Asia (Diodorus, 18.7.3-9), and the bloody end of the Lamian (Hellenic) War in which the united Greeks failed to win freedom yet again (Diodorus, 18.10.1-3, 11, 12, 15, 17.5). By 300 BC, the Macedonian Empire was carved up between the dynasties of Antigonus I "One-Eye" (Macedonia and Greece), Ptolemy I (Egypt), and Seleucus I (Asia). Under Antigonus II Gonatas (276-239), the grandson of Antigonus I, Macedonia achieved a stable monarchy and strengthened its occupation of Greece. His grandson Philip V (222-179 BC), clashed with Rome which was now expanding eastwards, and fought the two "Macedonian Wars" against the Romans. After the Roman army defeated Philip in Thessaly, Macedonia lost the whole of Greece and was reduced to its original borders. In the third "Macedonian War", Rome finally defeated the Macedonian army under the last king the Philip's son Perseus (179-168 BC) and at the Battle of Pydna, 20,000 Macedonian soldiers died while defending their land. Perseus died prisoner in Italy, the Macedonian kingdom ceased to exist, and by 146 Macedonia became a Roman province. By 65 BC Rome conquered the Seleucid Macedonian kingdom in Asia under its last king Antiochus VII. Finally, the defeat of Cleopatra VII in 30 BC, brought an end to the last of the Macedonian descendants in Egypt, and with it, the last remains of the Macedonian Empire that was once the mightiest in the world disappeared from the face of the earth. Roman Macedonia In 51 AD for the first time on European soil, in the Macedonian towns Philippi, Thessalonica and Beroea, the Apostle Paul preached Christianity (Acta apos., XVI, id. XVII). In 52 and 53 he sent epistles to the people of Thessalonica (Epist. Thess); in 57 he came to Macedonia again, and in 63 he sent epistles to the people of Philippi (Epist. Philipp). During the 3rd and 4th centuriesbecause of the Gothic attacks the Macedonian towns built fortresses around them, Macedonia was divided into two provinces, Macedonia Prima and Macedonia Salutarus. Since the east-west split of the Roman Empire in 395 AD, Macedonia was ruled by the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine Empire). It is interesting to note that the Emperor Justinian was born in Skopje, Macedonia. In the 5th century Macedonia was divided again into Macedonia Prima and Macedonia Secunda. In the 6th century, an earthquake demolished Scupi (nowadays Skopje) and Slavs overrun both Macedonia and Greece and mixed with the ancient Macedonians and Greeks. Thus the foundations for the modern Macedonian and Greek nations were laid. In the 7th century the Turko-Mongolic Bulgars entered the Balkan Peninsula and populated Thrace. In time they mixed with the Slavs and ancient Thracians who already lived there and laid the foundations of the modern Bulgarian nation. In the 9th century, while the Byzantine Empire was ruled by the Macedonians Emperors of the Macedonian Dynasty, the Macedonian brothers Cyril and Methodius from the largest Macedonian city of Salonica, created the first Slavonic alphabet, founded the Slavic literacy, and promoted Christianity among the Slavic peoples. Their disciples Kliment and Naum of Ohrid established the first Slavonic University, the Ohrid Literary School. 3,500 teachers, clergy, writers, and other literary figures emerged from this Ohrid Literary School. Their activity was crowned with the laying of foundations of a Slavonic cultural, educational and ecclesiastical Organization, where the Slavonic alphabet was used and the Old Slavonic language was introduced in religious services. The establishment of the first Slavic bishopric, later to become an Ohrid Archbishopric during the reign of Samuel, marked the beginning of the Macedonian Orthodox Church. In the first half of the 10th century, the Bogomil teaching appeared in Macedonia. Bogomilism had grown into a large-scale popular movement and it spread through the Balkans and Europe. The 10th century also marked the beginning of the first Macedonian Slavic State, the Kingdom of Tsar Samuel (976-1014). Towards the end of the 10th century, with the weakening of the Eastern Roman Empire, and with the first Bulgarian Empire apart, Tsar Samuel created a strong Macedonian medieval kingdom with its center at Ohrid. Soon he conquered parts of Greece, Epirus, a large part of Bulgaria, Albania, Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro and Dalmacia. This was not a Bulgarian state, but an independent Macedonian State with a capital in Ohrid, Macedonia, not in Preslav, Bulgaria where the Bulgarian kings ruled. Samuel was defeated in 1014 by Basil II when the Byzantine army won the battle on Mount Belasica capturing 15,000 of his soldiers. All were blinded, except one in every one hundred, who were left with one eye to lead the rest back to Samuel who escaped death at Belasica. At the site Samuel suffered a stroke and died two days later on October 6, 1014. For four centuries after the fall of the kingdom, rebellions and frequent changes of rule disrupted Macedonia's development. In the 11th century, there were two major uprisings against Byzantine rule, one led by Petar Deljan in 1040, Samuel's grandson, and the other by Gjorgji Vojteh in 1072. The 12th century saw the rise of the Macedonian feudal lords Dobromir Hrs in 1201, and Strez in 1211. Ottoman Macedonia Despite the rebellions, and the short-lived Serbian and Bulgarian occupations in the 13th and 14th centuries, Macedonia remained a Byzantine territory until the Ottoman Turks conquered it in 1389. The Turks firmly established themselves not only in Macedonia, but in all of the Southern Balkans. Ottoman rule will last for five centuries. The first significant resistance movements against the Turkish occupation were the Mariovo-Prilep Rebellion (1564 - 1565), and the Karposh Uprising in 1689.In the 18th century, under the pressure of the Greek Patriarch in Istanbul, the Turks abolished the Ohrid Archbishopric, which had been keeping alive the spiritual soul of the Macedonians for centuries since the times of Tsar Samuel. In the 19th century, Greece, Serbia, and Bulgaria freed themselves from the Turkish rule and actively become conspiring against the Macedonians displaying territorial aspirations on their land. These indigenous states all became in different ways stalking horses for the aspirations of the European Great Powers. The so-called "Macedonian Question" appeared which is nothing else but a competition for a new conquest of Macedonia by their neighbors. The Greeks, Bulgarians, and Serbs employed many weapons in this conflict. They included the opening of schools in an attempt to inculcate a particular linguistic and confessional identity, the control of ecclesiastical office, influence over the course of railway building, diplomatic attempts to secure the ear of the Turkish Sultan. The Greeks and the Bulgarians begun sending guerrilla bands into Macedonia to and use terror to "convince" the population of its "true identity". But the Macedonians strove to develop their own national consciousness and begun organizing themselves for fight against the Turks at the same time, a process that their neighbors tried everything to interrupt. Thus, the nineteenth century is a period of growing national awareness among the Macedonian people and their quest for free and independent Macedonia. The Independence Movement Literacy and education flourished and the foundations of modern Macedonian literature were laid. The leading activists were Kiril Pejchinovich, Joakim Krchovski, Partenija Zografski, Georgija Puleski, Jordan Hadzi Konstantinov - Dzinot, Dimitar and Konstantin Miladinov, Grigor Prlicev, and Kuzman Sapkarev. The second half of the nineteenth century was marked by the beginning of the national revolutionary struggle for the liberation of Macedonia. The Razlovtsi and Kresna Uprisings, in 1876 and 1878 respectively, had a strong influence on the growth of Macedonian national awareness. Bishop Theodosius of Skopje started a campaign for an independent Macedonian Orthodox Church and tried to restore the Ohrid Archbishopric, which had been abolished in 1767. The Bulgarians effectively destroyed the idea. In 1893, the Macedonian revolutionary organization known as VMRO (Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization) was founded in the greatest Macedonian city of Salonica, with Gotse Delchev as its leader. Its objectives were national freedom and the establishment of an autonomous Macedonian state with the slogan "Macedonia for the Macedonians". Delchev's famous words were "I understand the world as a field for cultural competition among the nations" and "Those who believe that answer of our national liberation lies in Bulgaria, Serbia or Greece might consider themselves a good Bulgarian, good Serb or a good Greek, but not a good Macedonian." In 1903 a group of Macedonian revolutionaries known as "Gemidzii" carried out a series of attacks on a number of buildings in Salonica in order to draw the attention of the European public towards the situation of the Macedonian people. Later on August 2, 1903, VMRO launched the Ilinden Uprising against the Turks and declared Macedonian independence. The revolutionaries liberated the town of Krushevo, and established the Republic of Krushevo with its own government. The uprising was brutally crushed by the Turks, but the Macedonian Question thereafter aroused intense international concern. The Great Powers made several attempts to impose reform on the Porte, including the sending of their own officers to supervise the gendarmerie - in effect, the first international peacekeeping force. And although the revolt was suppressed, Macedonians remember the brief victory as a key date in the country's history and the event is enshrined in Macedonia's constitution. In the same year, 1903, Krste Misirkov from Pella (Postol), one of the most outstanding names in the history of Macedonian culture, and the founder of the modern Macedonian literary language and orthography, published his "On Macedonian Matters", in which he projected the principles for standardization of the Macedonian literary language. The Partition of Macedonia and World War I In 1908 the Young Turk revolution. The Young Turk movement, lead by the Young Turk Committee, had the aim of reforming the Turkish country and making social and political reforms in Macedonia. The Macedonian revolutionary organization, through Jane Sandanski and the newly formed national federal party, actively took part in the Young Turk movement for achieving autonomy for Macedonia. In 1912, Greece, Serbia, and Bulgaria joined forces and defeated the Turkish army in Macedonia. 100,000 Macedonians also participated and helped in the Turkish evacuation but the victors did not reward them. The Treaty of London (May 1913), which concluded the First Balkan War, left Bulgaria dissatisfied with the partition of Macedonia among the allies which resulted after the war. Bulgaria's attempt to enforce a new partition in a Second Balkan War failed, and the Treaty of Bucharest (August 1913) confirmed a pattern of boundaries that (with small variations) has remained in force ever since. Macedonia within Turkey before 1912 and its partition in 1913 among Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria, and Albania Having failed to achieve independence in 1903, the Macedonians, now divided, were left to their new masters. Greece tookthe biggest, southern half of Macedonia (Aegean Macedonia) and renamed it to "Northern Greece"; Bulgaria annexed the Pirin region and abolished the Macedonian name, and Serbia took over the Vardar region and renamed it to "Southern Serbia". N. Pasich of Serbia and E. Venizelos of Greece agreed on the newly formed Greek-Serbian border, so that there would be "only Serbs to the North and only Greeks to the South", and no "Macedonians" on either side. Thus the politics of assimilation had begun, as Macedonia's geographic, natural and ethnic unity was distroyed by its own neighbors. An intensive campaigning took place in all three parts of Macedonia to impose foreign identities upon the population that suited the interests of the controlling states. In Vardar Macedonia, the Serbs labeled the Macedonians with the name "South Serbs"; in Aegean Macedonia, the Greeks labeled them as "Slavophone Greeks", "MakedoSlavs", and other insulting names; while in Pirin Macedonia, the Macedonians were simply called Bulgarians. In 1914, World War I erupted. Bulgaria sided with the Central powers and by 1915 it occupied the Serbian held part of Macedonia. But the defeat of the Central powers and the end of World War I in 1918 saw the partition of 1913 reconfirmed and Macedonia was left divided. At the Paris Peace conference the demands of the Macedonians for independent and united Macedonia were ignored. Vardar Macedonia was re-incorporated with the rest of Serbia and into the new Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes which was later renamed Yugoslavia. World War II and the Liberation Since 1913, official Greece has been trying to banish native Macedonian names of villages, towns, cities, rivers, and lakes in Aegean Macedonia. For example, the little stream which issues from Mount Olympus and flows into the Aegean Sea is labeled Mavroneri("black water") on the maps made by Greek cartographers after 1913. However, the same river appears as Crna Reka, a native Macedonian name meaning "black river" on the maps made before 1913. Kutlesh had been dropped for Vergina, and Kukush for Kilkis, together with at least 300 other places all over Aegean Macedonia. The Macedonians were also forced to renounce their native family names and use only new "Greek-sounding" names. In 1995, Human Rights Watch - Helsinki was a witness that even today the Macedonians are forbidden to carry their first and last Macedonian names. During the dictatorship of General Metaxis, the Macedonians were exposed to brutal oppression. The Macedonian language was forbidden, despite the fact under the supervision of the League of Nations Greece had recognized its existence as distinct language when it published the primer "Abecedar" for the needs of the Macedonian children in 1924. In the 1930's the Macedonians in Greece were punished for speaking of their native language by drinking of castor oil and were persecuted for expressing of their national identity. Yet despite the triple persecution the Macedonians never abandoned their nationality. The period between the two world wars was also filled with constant endeavors to change the situation of Macedonia and annul the division of the country and its people. In 1925 VMRO (United) was founded in Vienna under the leadership of Dimitar Vlahov, Pavel Satev, Georgi Zankov, Rizo Rizov, Vladimir Pop Timov and Hristo Jankov. Their main objective was to free Macedonia within its geographical and economical borders and create an independent political unit that will become an equal member of the future Balkan Federation. In 1935, MANAPO (Macedonian National Movement) was founded in the Vardar part of Macedonia. In 1938The first collection of poems "Fire" ("Ogin") from Venko Markovski was published in Macedonian. In 1939 publication of "White Dawns" ("Beli Mugri"), a collection of poems in Macedonian from the first modern Macedonian poet Koco Racin. In 1940, the democratic groups in Macedonia defined the political program for the national and social liberation of the country. With the World War II burning throughout Europe, Yugoslavia was invaded by the German army in April of 1941. Bulgaria, now fascist, again occupied almost all of Macedonia (both Vardar and Aegean) and collaborated with the Nazis for the departure of the Jews of Salonica to their deaths. On October 11, 1941, the Macedonians launched a war for the liberation of Macedonia from the Bulgarian occupation. By 1943, the anti-fascist sentiment lent support for the growing communist movement and soon thereafter, the Communist Party of Macedonia was established. In the same year, the first unit of the Army of Macedonia was founded. Bodies of government, such as national liberation councils, were formed over the whole territory of Macedonia. The Headquarters of the National Liberation Army (NOV) published the manifesto of the goals of the war of liberation. The first session of the Anti-Fascist Assembly of the National Liberation of Macedonia (ASNOM) was held in the monastery of St. Prohor Pchinski on 2 August 1944 on the 41st anniversary of the Ilinden uprising. Representatives from all parts of Macedonia, including the Pirin and the Aegean parts of the country, gathered for the occasion and decided on the constitution of a modern Macedonian state as a member of the new Yugoslav federation under the name of Peoples Republic of Macedonia. The ASNOM presidium was formed with Metodija Andonov Cento was its first President and decision was reached to constitute a modern Macedonian country that will become part of the new Federal Yugoslavia. On April 1945 the first Macedonian government was founded with Lazar Kolisevski as its first President. The Ohrid Archbishopric was restored in 1958, and its autocephaly was declared in 1967. The Macedonians were finally free in one of the three parts of Macedonia. The Greek Civil War and the Macedonians in Greece (Aegean Macedonia) In Greece, after the Varkisa agreement (December 1945), the use of the Macedonian name and the Macedonian language were once again prohibited in the Aegean part of Macedonia and the Greek authorities started applying terror against the Macedonians. In the period of 1945-46 alone, according to statistics: 400 murders were registered; 440 women and girls were raped; 13,529 interned on the Greek islands; 8,145 imprisoned in the Greek prisons; 4,209 indicted; 3,215 sentenced to prison; 13 driven mad by the torture in the prisons; 45 villages abandoned; 80 villages pillaged; 1,605 families plundered; and 1,943 families evicted. Therefore, during the Greek Civil War that followed World War II (1946-1949), the Macedonians of Aegean Macedonia fought on the side of the Greek Communist Party (KKE) simply because it promised them their rights after the war.Out of the 35,000 soldiers of DAG, about half were Macedonians. The liberated territory, covering mainly the territory of Aegean Macedonia. 87 Macedonian schools were opened for 100,000 pupils, the newspapers in Macedonian were published ("Nepokoren", "Zora", "Edinstvo", "Borec"), and cultural and artistic associations were created. But after two years of KKE's success in the civil war, the United States decided to side up against them, afraid that Greece would become another communist country. With the military support that came from the United States and Great Britain, the communists lost the war, and the Macedonians once again were stripped of their human rights. The defeat of DAG resulted in terrible consequences for the Macedonians. 28,000 Aegean Macedonian children, known as 'child refugees', were separated from their families and settled in eastern Europe and Soviet Union in an attempt to save them from the terror that followed. Thousands of Macedonians lost their lives for the liberty of their people and a great number of the Macedonian villages were burned to the ground jut like the Greek army burned Kukush and the surrounding villages in the Balkan Wars. In the late 1950's the inhabitants of several villages in the districts of Florina (Lerin), Kastoria (Kostur), and Edessa (Voden) were forced to take oaths in which they swore never again to speak "the local Slavic idiom," but to speak only Greek instead. Yet, the policy on denationalization continued to meet resistance among the Macedonians. The Macedonian language continued to be spoken in everyday communication and folklore as an expression of the Macedonian national affiliation. "The Macedonian Movement for Balkan Prosperity" withits main office in Salonica was founded, and "Rainbow" and some other organizations have been asking the international factors and the Greek government for legalization of the national and political rights of the Macedonians in Greece. The Macedonians in Bulgaria (Pirin Macedonia) The political changes after the capitulation of fascist Bulgaria and the coup d'etat of September 9, 1944 positively influenced the historical status of the Macedonians from the Pirin part of Macedonia. The Communist Party of Bulgaria, under the leadership of Geogi Dimitrov on August 9, 1946 officially recognized the Macedonian nation and the right of the Pirin part of Macedonia to be attached to the People’s Republic of Macedonia. The Macedonians in Bulgaria exist as separate nationality on all Bulgarian censuses after the end of World War II. The demography data from 1946 revealed that the majority of the population in the Pirin part of Macedonia declared itself as Macedonian in a free census. A period of cultural autonomy and affirmation of the Macedonian national and cultural values had begun. The Macedonian literary language and the national history have been introduced into the educational process. Almost 32,000 pupils were included into the teaching of Macedonian. In 1947 in Gorna Djumaja (Blagoevgrad nowadays) the first Macedonian bookstore and reading room were opened, as well as the Regional Macedonian National Theater. The newspapers in Macedonian such as "Pirinsko delo", "Nova Makedonija", "Mlad borec" etc. were also published. Literary circles and cultural and artistic associations were founded contributing to the spreading of the Macedonian culture. In the Bulgarian census of 1956, 63,7% of the population in Pirin declared itself as Macedonian. However, since 1956 Bulgaria has altered her attitude, negating again the existence of the Macedonian nation and forbidding the expression of Macedonian nationality and language. The idea for enforced and as result, in the census of 1965, the number of Macedonians dropped to only 8,750 and in the district of Blagoevgrad which previously had the highest percentage of Macedonians, it was less than 1%. But the fact that the Macedonians exist in Bulgaria can not be denied. The Times Atlas of World History acknowledges in its map that Pirin Macedonia is entirely populated by Macedonians. The recent archeological discovery in Aegean Macedonia in Greece confirmed that the Bulgarians had engaged in falsification of the history of Macedonia ever since the 19th century. And finally, the Macedonians in Bulgaria began organizing themselves. In 1989 the United Macedonian Organization - Ilinden (OMO Ilinden) was formed, demanding cultural and national autonomy for the Macedonians in Pirin. Republic of Macedonia As federal Yugoslavia was disintegrating at the beginning of 1990's, on September 8, 1991 in a referendum, 95% of eligible voters approved the independence and sovereignty of the Republic of Macedonia. Kiro Gligorov was elected the first president of independent Macedonia. The new constitution determined the Republic of Macedonia a sovereign, independent, civil, and democratic state, and it recognized the complete equality of the Macedonians and the ethnic minorities. It read "…Macedonia is constituted as a national country of the Macedonian people which guarantees complete civil equality and permanent mutual living of the Macedonian people with the Albanians, Turks, Vlachs, Roma and the other nationalities living in the Republic of Macedonia." Although the European Community acknowledged that Macedonia had fulfilled the requirements for official recognition, due to the opposition of Greece, which was already a member of the community, the EC decided to postpone the recognition. Greece, afraid that Macedonia might put forward a historical, cultural, and linguistic, claim over Aegean Macedonia, insisted that the new nation has no right to use of the name "Macedonia" and use the emblem of ancient Macedonia on its flag. In July of 1992 there were demonstrations by 100,000 Macedonians in the capital Skopje over the failure to receive recognition. But despite Greek objections, Macedonia was admitted to the United Nations under the temporary reference (not an official name) "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" in 1993. Full diplomatic relations with a number of EC nations followed, while Russia, China, Turkey, Bulgaria and most nations, ignored Greece's objections and recognized Macedonia under its constitutional name "Republic of Macedonia". Greece slapped a trade embargo on Macedonia on February 1994 because of the refusal of the Macedonian President Gligorov to rename the country, nation, and language, and change the Constitution because Article 47 specifies that "the Republic of Macedonia cares for the statue and rights of those persons belonging to the Macedonian people in neighboring countries, as well as Macedonian ex-parties, assists their cultural development and promotes links with them." Ironically, Greece also has a similar article in her Constitution, as any other country in the world, to care for her minorities in the neighboring countries. But the embargo had devastating impact on Macedonia's economy as the country was cut-off from the port of Salonica and became landlocked because of the UN embargo on Yugoslavia to the north, and the Greek embargo to the south. Greece would remove the embargo only if Macedonia satisfies her demands and despite international criticism it did not lift the embargo. At the same time, Greece withdrew from the Greek - Macedonian talks, monitored by the UN as a mediator, and blocked any acceptance of Macedonia in the international institutions by using its power to veto new members. Faced with economic collapse, and left without any support from the international community, Macedonia was practically forced to change its flag and constitution, upon which Greece lifted the embargo. Ironically, in 1995 the Human Rights Watch - Helsinki, condemned Greece for the oppression of its ethnic Macedonian minority, which Greece denies it exists. Both Amnesty International and the European Parliament had also urged Greece to recognize the existence of the Macedonian language and stop the oppression of the ethnic Macedonians. Tensions in North-Western Macedonia In 1994, Kiro Gligorov was re-elected president but he was seriously injured in 1995 in a car bombing. He was able to resume his duties in 1996. Tensions with the Albanian minority continued as some Albanian politicians begun criticizing the Macedonian government on international scene. The Albanians were very small minority in Macedonia after World War II. Since then, they emigrated in greater numbers from Albania into Macedonia looking for a better life and Macedonia opened its doors to them. By 1953, they composed 12.5% of Macedonia's population, and by encouraging large families they became faster growing element then the Macedonians and any of the other smaller minorities. Today, the Albanians claim that their human rights are not fulfilled in Macedonia, that their statistical numbers are much higher then the recorded 23% in the censuses of the 1990's, and they demand a "cultural autonomy" in north-western Macedonia where they live in greater numbers among the Macedonians. This, despite the fact that Macedonia had always provided its Albanian minority with a freedom of having TV, radio, newspapers, elementary and high schools in their own language, and even ministers in the government, and despite the fact that international observers monitored the censuses of 1991 and 1994 and verified the results as accurate. Clearly a sharp contrasts and complete opposite to the plight of ethnic Macedonians in Greece, Bulgaria, and Albania, whose minimal human rights are not respected at all. One final observation regarding the Albanians has to be made. The Albanians claim that they are descendants of the ancient Illyrians (the western neighbors of the ancient Macedonians) and some Albanians have gone as far as claiming part of Macedonia (as well as parts of Serbia, Montenegro, and Greece) as "Greater Albania". It should be stressed that the Albanians are not direct descendants of the ancient Illyrians. In fact, their original home has never been modern Albania, since in ancient times Albania was located in Asia on the Caucasus. The ancient Greek and Roman historians clearly mention the Albanians fighting on the side of the Persians against the Macedonian army of Alexander the Great and Plutarch wrote that they fought the Roman army under Ptolemy in Asia as well. The ancient geographers Ptolemy of Alexandria (2nd century A.D.) and Strabo made clear maps of Albania in Asia (as well as of Macedonia separate from Greece, Illyria, and Thrace). The Albanians came to Europe and settled present day Albania many centuries later, becoming the latest arrivals on the Balkans, as there are being mentioned for first time in Europe many centuries after the arrival of the Slavs and Bulgars. By the time of their arrival, the modern Macedonian, Greek, and Bulgarian nations were already in the process of formation from the roots of the ancient Macedonian, Greek, and Thracian peoples, but the ancient Illyrians were far more assimilated and their name disappears from history. If the Albanians are therefore recognized as descendants of the Illyrians (although their link to any ancient Balkan nation is the weakest out of all modern nations due to the enormous time span), then it must be recognized that today's Macedonians are more then justified descendants of the ancient Macedonians (with Slav admixture from the 6th century). Similarly the modern Greeks are descendants of the ancient Greeks (with Slav and Turkish admixture), and the modern Bulgarians are descendants of the ancient Thracians (with Bulgar and Slav admixture), a fact that these three nations are quite aware of in their own historiographies. In addition, the fact that the Albanians have retained their original Albanian name and not the Illyrian, unlike the Macedonians and the Greeks who still carry their ancient names, furthermore supports the fact that they are direct descendants of the Asian Albanians and not of the ancient European Illyrians. |
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==Changes needed==todays macedonians are slavs, same as serbs and other FYROM contrys. =Medieval period=
...At the end of the 10th century much of what is now Republic of Macedonia became the political and cultural center of the First Bulgarian Empire under tsar Samuil, while the Byzantine emperor Basil II conquered the eastern part of the country, including the capital of Preslav, in 972. A new capital was established at Ohrid, which also became the seat of the Bulgarian Patriarchate. From then on, the Bulgarian culture became an integral part of the Slav culture as a whole. After several decades of almost incessant fighting, Bulgaria came under Byzantine rule in 1018. The whole of Macedonia was incorporated into the Byzantine Empire as the province of Bulgaria and the Bulgarian Patriarchate was reduced in rank to an archbishopric...
It wasn't "from then on"... Bulgarian culture became an integral part of the Slav culture as a whole from 864 /Begining of Christianization/ and was most influencial from the "Golden Age of Bulgarian Culture" (Tzar Simeons reign) /the period in the previous paragraph/
I hope you will correct it :) (82.199.193.217 22:08, 28 May 2007 (UTC)yavor)
=Ancient Period=
It is clearly stated from all the serious academic historical texts and from the same Wikipedia [[1]] that the ancient Macedon is in Ancient Greece , participating in Greek culture, speaking in Greek and taking part in the greek politics, thus clearly having a Greek national identity, so this section concerning the ancient period of the republic of macedonia (or whatever), does not have anything to do with the history of that new country , please change it as principally is a matter of contradiction and coherence between articles in the Wikipedia.
Moreover i assure you its a very serious incident of historical alteration and should be omitted or changed if the reliability of such a useful instrument as Wikipedia is to be taken seriously: you are referring in different periods of time under a different national identity.
At that point i would like to add, -though i don't need to because we are facing historical facts universally established- that the ethnicity at a given moment is irrelevant, since at the beginning of the forming of each nation, many ethnic groups concentrate and unite beneath a national conscience, that is without any doubt the fist and foremost reason of the existence of the concept of Nation.
Macedon as culture, participated and emerged in the forming of the national Hellenic identity, as Epirus did, not of the national servian or bulgarian one, their history is following different paths nationally and culturally , rich also, but for the period we are talking they don't participate in the unification under the Helade, though their actual territory, not national identity may have coincided some remote time in the past. Therefore the republic of macedonia, uses an ancient greek emblem, the Sun of Vergina, and part of the ancient helenic history regarding Macedon, combining it with a balkanic mixed salad of national identities in the attempt to identify nationally its existence. But that’s a perilous way, because in the end will not feel identified with foreign , not integrated, elements, such as for example the domestication of Alexander the Great or Alexandros o Megas, son of Olympia from Epirus and Felipos. In the end this will not work because it isn't a natural historical evolution but partly elaborated out of needs of structural national unification. In this context i feel i should ask for a more mature approach by Wikipedia and its Contributors, since you have established this article as almost untouchable
With regards, --Beltenebros 20:34, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I have already placed the section of Ancient Period in OR and Verifiability Needed, it does not compete with any of those standards.
The historic placement of this article is totally messed up, for obvious reasons and the ones stated before. Either you refer to MACEDON as part of Hellenic History or to the republic of macedonia, BUT NOT to the two of them in the same time... is what the policy of Skopje is doing; and from Wikipedia, a scientific instrument i expect otherwise.
Please, see to this. --Beltenebros 21:33, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I will insist untill someone changes this section or article because it neither has scientific value nor is correct in its basic historic aspect whatsoever! The region you are talking about, the map and the whole article are speaking of totally different things on a historical basis. CHANGES NEEDED!!!--Beltenebros 21:18, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] On the Title & Nationalism
Just so we keep the names of the articles consistent, shouldn't this article be titled History of the Former Yoguslavian etc.? --Dante Alighieri 22:29 Dec 5, 2002 (UTC)
- Yes, this would be logical. There are about 9 "subpages" that would need to be renamed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.149.37.106 (talk) 22:34, 5 December 2002 (UTC)
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- HISTORY OF FYROM IS NOT HISTORY OF MACEDONIA!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.47.34.67 (talk) 15:19, 6 December 2002 (UTC)
Whatever you say, whatever you do, you won't be able to deny me and my nation. You can claim that I am Bulgarian, Greek, Serb or Chineese, but it won't change the fact that I am only Macedonian and very proud to be one.
My grandfather was shoot 3 times from the Bulgarians, because he was Macedonian and didn't wanted to accept the presure from Bulgarians to become a part of them.
My other grandfather was runned away from Kukus (Kilkis) in the Macedonian part of Greece because he was Macedonian. His house was burned and he had to choose between death and leaving his birthland.
Please, all of you nationalistic minds, just visit some area where the Macedonian live. You will see how wrong you are and all your words go in vain, because the Macedonian nation exist for thoulsands of years and it can not be destroyed with words of people who haven't read any other history book except their schoolbook published by their own goverments.
The antique Macedonians were high, light haired people. Just pass through Macedonia and Greece and analise the look of the people.
Or read about some scientific experiment that includes DNA test for origin of the nations. You will conclude by yourself who is more luckily to be ancestor of the Antique Macedonians and how different are nowday Macedonians from any other nation that surround us.
If Macedonians were a product of Tito, how can you explain the 1000s of Macedonians which feel of Macedonian nationality that live in Greece, Bulgaria and Albania, where Tito was not the leader? Or the 1000s that live all over the world that left Macedonia far before Tito appeared?
One more fact. Macedonians are the ONLY nation of many in the region that is strictly concentrated in the borders of the geographical region of Macedonia. Not Greeks, not Bulgarians, not Albanians, not Serbs. Try to deny this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by I sterbinski (talk • contribs) 02:54, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
- Your nation exist for sure but I believe it's quite new. How is that I never met none of these thousands of Macedonians living in Bulgaria? In my personal opinion a nation exist if there are people that feel like part of this nation. However I seriously doubt there were people that felt Macedonians before the end of the 19th century.
- I don't understand what you expect. The whole Bolkan Peninsula given back to Republic of Macedonia because it was part of ancient Macedon state? I don't understand why the Greek guys flame either. You want the whole Bolkan Peninsula to be given back to Greece because it was a part of ancient Greece? Come on guys just stop it don't you see we have a common history and I'm sure the DNA research you suggested will prove just this. -- --Naib Stilgar 23:34, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
The Bulgars, a Central Asian Turkic tribe, merged with the local Slavic inhabitants in the late 7th century to form the first Bulgarian state. In succeeding centuries, Bulgaria struggled with the Byzantine Empire to assert its place in the Balkans, but by the end of the 14th century the country was overrun by the Ottoman Turks. Northern Bulgaria attained autonomy in 1878 and all of Bulgaria became independent in 1908. Having fought on the losing side in both World Wars, Bulgaria fell within the Soviet sphere of influence and became a People's Republic in 1946. Communist domination ended in 1990, when Bulgaria held its first multiparty election since World War II and began the contentious process of moving toward political democracy and a market economy while combating inflation, unemployment, corruption, and crime. Today, reforms and democratization keep Bulgaria on a path toward eventual integration into the EU. The country joined NATO in 2004.
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/bu.html#Intro
In this study we have established the frequencies of the DRB1-DQA1-DQB1 haplotypes in a large cohort of Sardinian new-borns and found that the most frequent haplotypes were detected at frequencies unique to the Sardinians. Other haplotypes, common in other Caucasian populations, are rare or absent across the island. Next, the DRB1-DQA1-DQB1 haplotype frequencies obtained in Sardinians and those reported in other human populations were used to compute genetic distances and construct phylogenetic trees. A clear-cut pattern appeared with a split between the three major human groups: Caucasians, Asians and Blacks. Among the Caucasians there were three major clusters: a group representing the North-Africans, a group including most of the European-derived populations and a group encompassing Bulgaria, Greece and Sardinia. When we increased the resolution of the tree using the genetic distances calculated from both DRB1-DQA1-DQB1 haplotypes and class I HLA A, B, C allelic frequencies, the Sardinians clearly emerged as the major outlier among the various European populations considered in this study. These results indicate that the genetic structure of the present Sardinian population is the result of a fixation of haplotypes, which are very rare elsewhere, and are most likely to have originated from a relatively large group of founders. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ancientmacedon (talk • contribs) 00:35, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
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- Edited by true MACEDONIAN: This is the biggest bullshit I ever heard of... If you wrote it down with capital letters it doesen't mean that you're right or on second thought that you're not talking crap. You can read and searc you'll see what your granddas did to my people. Go to hell you, for telin lies and fuck Wikipedia for supporting them.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.114.78.9 (talk) 12:34, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
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- Seriously!? You mean the name Makedonia, probably... Because the people in Republic of Macedonia, the Pirin Macedonia and the Aegean Macedonia since 1000 years was, is and will be bulgarian. There's no other nation, which in three states is called in three different names - in Bulgaria - bulgarians, in RM - macedonians, in Greece - slavs or "voulgarophoni ellines" (bulgarian-speaking greeks), and finally in Albania, some call itself Bulgarians, other - Macedonians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.73.139.48 (talk) 21:46, 24 January 2005 (UTC)
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- Before the Ottoman Turks occupied territory of Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, that region was part of Serbia, under the rule of Serbian kings and local Serbian lords. Hundreds of churches and monasteries were built by Serbian lords and kings. Skopje was the capital city of Serbian kings.
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- Macedonia is a historic region in Northern Greece. Everything that is related to the name Macedonia is related to Greece. That was the reason that in Serbia and Kingdom of Yugoslavia, they never use that name. They used name South Serbia or Old Serbia.
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- After communists took power in Yugoslavia and Bulgaria, they supported communist guerilla in Northern Greece (Macedonia), hoping to establish communist government in Greece and took control over the Northern Greece. That was the reason why they created Republic of Macedonia in South Serbia.
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- The Slavic population of modern FYR Macedonia is a mix of Bulgarians and Serbs. However, they feel they are distinctive people. I have no problem with their feelings except I do not like idea of using Greek name Macedonia. That name has nothing to do with ethnic background of inhabitants of FYR Macedonia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.121.69.85 (talk) 03:11, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
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- Guys, I do not want to offense anybody. I am Bulgarian, but I think that Republic of Macedonia is noone's land but to the people who live and are born in Republic of Macedonia. Everybody has the right to feel him/herself Macedonian, Greek, Bulgarian, Serbian, Albanian etc.... Some of my forefathers are Macedonians, but I can assure you they were not Greeks, though they spoke Greek.
- But there is one interesting fact:
- Have you ever watched old Macedonian movies from the 1950s, have you ever heard the language they speak - it is just pure Bulgarian (now called "old macedonian"). And now Macedonians have to use subtitles to understand some of the words in their "new macedonian"!?! It is more than weird :))))
- Some people in Bulgaria say that "New Macedonian language" is spoiled bulgarian typed by Serbian typewriter.
- About Serbia who ruled Macedonia and bla-bla-bla - it happened once, i think about 1350, it was not very long (shortly after that turks came ... and you know...) Do the Serbians know that name of their capital now - Belgrade, comes from Bolgrad (Bulgarian city; Болгарски град). What can I say GIVE BACK BELGRADE TO BULGARIANS hahahaha :)
- And about the fanatic Greek guy, I read somewhere "Macedonia is Greek...blabla etc." I have just one queston: Why nowadays Greece(Elada) is called Greece and not Byzantium. Just compare: Bulgaria has always been known as Bulagria in the Balkans!!! Bregmatorie 21:47, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
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- It is funny - we Macedonians think that Bulgarian is a very uncomfortable and, I should say - ugly language. Bomac 22:18, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
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- Well, your aunt/sister/poor old granny can't even compare with it! :-D)) Bomac 23:18, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
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Please, let's not offense each other. All I did was to represent some facts (about the so called "old" and "new" Macedonian). We can say lots of things about our relatives, but we write here with the only purpose to show each/everybody's point of view, and we can do that only with facts and not with my mom, your sister or his aunt. And about that Macedonians never have liked Bulgarian language - that's your point of view. I like that. You are honest, I think. And my question is: Have ever watched Macedonian movies from 1950s?
I hope, after watching some movies, you'll be honest again with your answer?
I am not telling you that you are Bulgarian, I do know you are Macedonian, and I do know Macedonia is not Bugarian, all I want you to admit is that, let's say so, both countries have common origins... Bregmatorie 10:01, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, it's true that both - Macedonia and Bulgaria shared common moments in their history, which is a fact. But, anyway, that doesn't means that Macedonians are "separated Bulgarians". The main problem is that noone even tries to understand the situation Macedonians were (I think that is a result of the terittorial pretensions of Bg. and Greece towards Mc.). Noone tries to realize that - since Bulgaria was a free country after Ottoman rule, Macedonia still was a battlefield for all her neighbours - it was a struggle who to grab it first. Even in the Ottoman rule, there were examples of Macedonian self-consciesness - the example with the teachers who tried to make a short grammar of the Macedonian language, from Voden, Aegean Macedonia, whose attempt was ruined by the Turks. And other example - the Macedonian school-book "Abecedar", printed in Greece (caus of the critics of foreigners for the poor treatment of minorities in Greece) written in Latin script (to differ from Serbian and Bulgarian language), which was confiscated by Serbia and Bulgaria because of the Macedonian speech in it (Bitola-Lerin dialect). Bulgaria was always pretensious towards Macedonia, and still is.
- And about the films - I shall mention again - think of the circumstances, and it doesn't means that if they spoked a similar language to today's Bulgarian that they are de facto Bulgarians. Bomac 12:58, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
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- Bomac, I realize what the circumstanses were, but I also have watched such movies, and the language they spoke in my opinion was pure Bulgarian, with Bulgarian grammar and with Bulgarian pronounciation/accent. That was about 50 years ago, things have changed nowadays. Macedonia is not Bulgaria or better say Bulgarian. If you have noticed the official Macedonian statistics in Macedonia there are about 10 000 Romanians, though Macedonia and Romania do not have common border and are about 300 km away from one another. Bulgarians are the most compact minority if it is mentioned at all. I have a lot of friends whose grandfathers and grandmothers live in Macedonia. Their grandparents have Bulgarian consciousness, but more of them have been threatened by the local authorities. I mean, not very long ago (about 50 years), in Macedonia lived many people who had Bulgarian consciousness. These people exist today, as exist their children and grandchildren. Just have a look at the educational system in Macedonia during the Yugoslavia period!?! More of your famous people or even heroes are claimed to be killed or tortured by Bulgarians. Now comes the problem with the politics that existed - a whole generation knows that Bulgarians are the bad guys...and etc. I want in these discussion people from neighbouring countries to think and not to blame anybody, because we (people from neighbouring countries) are the only ones to be blamed, not the others, because everyone pretends to be right not knowing the other point of view. If a Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece, Turkey had, by any chance, ruled these lands (Balkans) or different parts of it, doesn't mean people living that part of land/area are the same as their souvereign.
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- ...(cont.)Different nations mixed each other and our grandparents or better say forefathers spoke more than one language - at least two. Who can say what they were thinking they are.
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- My grandgrandfather spoke Bulgarian, Greek, Turkish, Esperanto, Gypsian, but he told me that such nation as Macedonian never had existed. I know things had changed, but I also know what some old people told me. I see that for 50 years there is something like Macedonian nation, though a lot of things still remain unclear. Bregmatorie 19:54, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] 1912-1944
After the First Balkan War of 1912-13, Vardar Macedonia was made part of Serbia as Vardarska banovina ("Province of Vardar") and subsequently the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, whose 1929 constitution also called the area Vardarska banovina.
Vardar Macedonia became part of Serbia after the Second Balkan War – not after the first one.
We all agree that Turks occupied Vardar Macedonia after Battle of Marica River (1371) or later, but before the fall of Constantinople (1453). Also, there is an historic fact that before occupation, Vardar Macedonia was part of medieval Serbian Kingdom. At the very end, it was the King Vukasin of Serbia who died in Battle of Marica River. He was a legal king of Serbia, approved by Serbian Emperor Uros who ruled together with him. It was also the true that, after the death of Emperor Uros (1371), King Marko of Serbia (Vukasin’s son) was the only legitimate king in Serbia - until he died in Battle in Rovine (1395). Note that title “of Serbia” has nothing to do with their ethnic background.
So, based on this, we may say that, from legal point of view, Serbia returned Vardar Macedonia. That has nothing to do with feelings of local population.
During the short period between the Second Balkan War (1913) and Austrian occupation of Serbia in World War 1 (1915), Vardar Macedonia was known as Južna Srbija ("Southern Serbia") or Stara Srbija (‘Old Serbia”). The same name was used between WW1 and WW2.
Vardarska Banovina never existed until January 6, 1929. Vardarska Banovina included some other territories, not just a territory of modern Republic of Macedonia.
There is no explanation what happened after April 6, 1941. Somebody should write that.
This period is much better explained in the article about Republic of Macedonia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.121.69.85 (talk) 09:05, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Neutral Wikipedia?
I am writting about the issue of Macedonia, Republic of Macedonia, Macedonian Slavs (like Wikipedia calls the Macedonians) and the problem between Macedonia and Greece about the term Macedonia.
I am aware that this issue is largely discussed here, at Wikipedia, and Wikipedia claims that it is trying to take a neutral side. But, that is not the case. Wikipedia is everything except neutral in this question. In the following lines I will explain you why.
From the text in Wikipedia most of the people will conclude that Macedonian nation appeared during the World War 2 and Tito was the one who 'invented' us. The family of my wife (she is Mexican) read this and asked me is it truth. That was actually the first time I read what Wikipedia says about my nation, which was a direct reason for my reaction.
My grandfather is born in 1911th. Yesterday I had a talk with him. He took a part in the strugle for independence since 1925th and he took a part in the 2nd world war. He is alive and personal prove that Wikipedia is full of bullshit and lies about our origin. He spent half of his life proving and fighting for that. He was shot 3 times, all 3 from the Bulgarians who wanted to ocupy Macedonia in the Balkan wars and in the WW1 and WW2. Just a 1 min with him will show you how many lies you suport in Wikipedia.
I tried to edit some of the text few days ago, but everithing I wrote was deleted. And all I wrote were facts.
Fact 1. Macedonians (or Macedonian Slavs, like ONLY Wikipedia, Greece and Cyprus calls us) is the only nation of many living in the area concentrated inside the borders of the geographical region of Macedonia.
This is a pure fact, something that you can even find on the CIA web page. Can you give any fact to deny my fact? If you can not, why you erased it from Wikipedia?
Fact 2. Republic of Macedonia has diplomatic relations with about 150 countries in the world. Wikipedia says that "at least 20" countries recognize Macedonia under the name Macedonia. Guess what? That number is more than 100. And this is an officially confirmed by our ministery for foreighn affairs.
Fact 3. Wikipedia says that my country Contraversialy calls itself Republic of Macedonia. This is a pure example of taking a side in the problem. Why you don't say that Greece contraversialy deny us the use of the name Macedonia?
If you intended to be neutral, just write that we have the naming problem with Greece, but do not call my name "contraversial"!!!
Fact 4. While explaining about the antient Macedonia, its kings etc. you highly support the claim for their Greek origin. I can give you 1000s of facts that that is not truth and I beleive that some Greek guy can give you 1000s facts that those claims are truth. That was 2400 years ago and there is no chanse for us to know the real situation. We can only guess.
But, when you give the Greek suported version, why you ignore the version suported by the newaged Macedonians? In this moment I can give you 10 names of internationally respected scientist supporting our theory. If you are neutral, why you ignore it?
Fact 5. Wikipedia says that the Turkish Empire were calling us Bulgarians. Strange, because the Turks were recognizing the uniqueness of our nation since the moment they occupied the teritory of Macedonia. Actually, the Turkish history archives are the biggest prove of our existance, history and culture. Did anyone of you ever read anything from those archives? Even on the birth certificate of Khemal Ataturk says that he is born in Bitola, Macedonia. And his autobiography is full of memories of his childhood spend with the Macedonians.
Fact 6. Wikipedia ignores the egsodus of the Macedonian people from Greece and says they were running because they were supporters of the comunists. 1/3 of the Macedonians have origin from this part of Macedonia. They were runned away from there by force and you can find many historical proves for that. Again, big part of my family has origin from there. As a matter of fact, my grand-grand father was married to a Greek woman, my grand-grand mother. But, no matter of that, his house was burned and he was forced to run away for his life and the life of his family.
How dare you deny this? Do you know that even today my grand father is not allowed to visit Greece, because he was a kid when his family runned away from there?
Fact 7. There are about 500 000 Macedonians that live outside Macedonia, mostly in Canada, Australia, USA, Sweden etc. At least 1/3 moved there before 1930s. If we were a product of Tito, how can you explain that even they feel of Macedonian nationality? I have a family in USA which moved there in 1927th. Their ancestors (my cousins) do not even know how to talk Macedonian well. But, they still feel Macedonian. One of them is even one of the financiers of the party of the Macedonians in Bulgaria, trying to help their strugle to keep their national identity. I repeat, first time he visited Macedonia was in 1995th, far after Tito. And his family moved in USA in 1927th, far before Tito.
Fact 8. Wikipedia claims that the book of Macedonian songs by Dimitar Miladinov is actually Bulgarian. Have you maybe seen a original copy of the book, printed in Croatia? IT says clearly "Macedonian". Not to mention that the same author wrote one of the most important books in the Macedonian history "For the Macedonian issues", again printed in Croatia, where it clearly talks about the Macedonian nation and non-Bulgarian origin.
All this was simply erased from the database. I didn't erase anything when editing these pages, I support the other side and I do not want to hide their facts. But why Wikipedia wants to hide our facts, which show that we are not a product of Tito's ambitions for the Aegean Sea. In Tito's time, the Yugoslav army was far superior in the region. If he wanted the Aegean Sea, he would get it very easily.
Many things in Wikipedia are very offensive for the nowdays Macedonians. Wikipedia simply ignores us, gives us a new name and supports the theories of denial of our existance, culture and history.
I will try to give you an example that includes with Mexico. I beleive that you know that the Maya civilisation was invaded by the Spanish kingdom. Spanish were ruling Mexico for centuries and millions of Spanish people moved at Mexican teritory. Later, after the liberation war, Mexicans formed its own country.
Fact 1. Mayas were living in Mexico (same as Antique Macedonians).
Fact 2. Spanish invaded them and great number of Spanish people moved to Mexico (The Slavs moved on the theritory of Macedonia and there was no reported fights or movements of people away from the teritory where the Slavs settled).
Fact 3. Nowdays, everyone of the Mexican is aware that they are partly Spanish, but they still have Mayan origin (Wikipedia says that the people living in Republic of Macedonia are Slavs. When there was no reported resetling of the Antique Macedonians, how is possible they not to mix with the Slavs? It is a fact that the nowdays Macedonians are not same as the Antique Macedonians, but they certanly have a significant part of their genes. Same as I beleive that Greece has a part of their Genes, but they are definitly not their direct ancestors).
Fact 4. Mexican speak Spanish. Reason: The Spanish culture was superior in that time. (The Antique Macedonians accepted the Helenic culture, including a variation of the Greek language. Reason: the Helenic culture was superior in that time. Everyone who knows at least little history will know that Hellenic and Greek are not synonims. Greek is nation, Hellenic is religion/culture. USA and England both speak English, both are mostly cristians, but they are SEPARATE nations. Aren't they? Same happens to Germany and Austria, or Serbia and Croatia, or Canada and France, or Brazil and Portugal, or the rest of Latin America and Spain)
And here is a comment about the claims of the Bulgarians, that the Macedonians are actually Bulgarians.
If that is truth, I am going to kill myself. Bulgarians through the history made the worst for my nation. During the strugle of the Macedonian people for independence from the Turkish empire, at the end of the 19th and begginbing of the 20th century, the Bulgarians were the ones who killed the most of our revolutionaries, including 4 members of my close family which were members of the Macedonian revolutionary organization (VMRO). Whis is not something that I was told by Tito. My grandfather (the same grandfather from above) was in fact a member of the same organization. He personaly knew many of the revolutioners that Bulgarians claim are theirs, including 2 of the leaders: Goce Delcev and Gorce Petrov. They were Macedonians and they all gave their lives for free and independent Macedonia and they had nothing to do with Bulgaria. There was a part of them who were Bulgarians inserted in the organizations, who were actually the killers of the real Macedonian revolutioners, because it was in Bulgarian interest to weaken the organization, so they could take the lead in the organization and later put Macedonia in the hands of the Bulgarians. Thanks god, they did not succeed.
Wikipedia claims that VMRO was pro-Bulgarian and the revolutioners were Bulgarian fighters. You suposed to see the face of my 94 year old grandfather when I told him your claims.
Neurtal Wikipedia? I do not think so.
At the end I have to ask for Wikipedia NOT TO TAKE A SIDE IN THIS. I am not asking to remove the Greek and Bulgarian side of the story. But, why you ignore our claims, which are suported by many non-Greek and non-Bulgarian scientists and very largely through the web.
There are just about 2-2.5 million Macedonians around the world. We do not have enought influence and strenght as Greece has, which is much more powerful and richer country than Macedonia.
The Macedonian-Greek question is too hard and too complicated to solve. History can be interpreted in 1000 ways, especially on a teritory like the Balcany, where there are so many nations on so little space. Fortunately, DNA testings are getting more and more reliable and soon it will be possible to be used to acuratelly show the origin of our nations. I hope that then the denyal of me, my history, culture and existance will finaly stop. It is very disapointing that Wikipedia takes a part in all that.
With all the respect, Igor Šterbinski - Skopje, Macedonia - is@on.net.mk —Preceding unsigned comment added by I sterbinski (talk • contribs) 02:34, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
- Dear Macedonian neighbour. I am Bulgarian. I do know you are Macedonian, and I do know Macedonia is not Bugarian. But... as I already wrote: Have ever watched Macedonian movies from 1950s? Have you ever heard the language they speak - it is just pure Bulgarian (now called "Old Macedonian"). And now Macedonians have to use subtitles to understand some of the words in their "New Macedonian"!?! It is more than weird :)))) Bregmatorie 12:30, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Now i think there is somebody that has to kill himself. You really shouldn't play with the devil. And By the way Гоце Делчев is Bulgarian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.153.172.129 (talk) 12:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
- I'm sure that your grandfather must have been a separatist, because i have never heard of an army who would kill their own brothers and sisters! And I would say that you misunderstand what the Miladinovi Brothers and Goce Delcev really mean when they reffer to Macedonians - they meant Bulgarians living in the Macedonian region! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.199.193.217 (talk) 20:23, 22 April 2007 (UTC).
You're writing hundreds of lines without actually saying anything. A Grandfather which says A and B doesn't mean anything here. I don't want to go into a dispute, because the History of Bulgaria and Greece don't need all those 'evidences' that Macedonian history needs. And before writing all those things, have you ever asked yourself - why you only know the truth and the rest of the world doesn't ??? Why only Macedonia knows the whole world history and ALL other states are blind? Why is Macedonia the only country in the Blakans which fights with its neighbours over history and names ??? That is why your statements are beeing deleted, because you have no idea how science works! And you're talking about books printed in Croatia, I recommend reading the books instead ! By the way, that original Book printed in Zagreb in 1801 you're talking about, I've seen it - it says with big letters "Bulgarian National Songs" on the front page! That's why your views shouldn't be published, because you obviously don't know what you're talking about. (DerVlad, 30.Nov.07)
[edit] Some clarification please
I added a map, because maps are helpful to people who don't know much about the area. I think a much better map is needed. I.E. one that outlines where FYROM, 'Macedonia region', 'Vardar Macedonia'. Aslo if the map could include all of Serbia and Greece, since they play a significant role in this history, that would be great. I would make up the map myself if I knew where to put the lines.
I also have a question, is Vardar Macedonia another name for Macedonia, or is it a region of Macedonia. If it is a region, it says under 1912-1944 that "Vardar Macedonia was made part of Serbia" but doesn't explain what happened with the rest of it. Thanks for any clarification. Matt 15:51, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
- Clarification of "Scientific Paper"
- As a Ph.D, there was never any DNA work that demonstrated that Ancient Macedonians are of Skopjian origin. The often referenced paper "HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks" published by Arnaiz-Villena et al., is not a paper to be referenced as it is published first by an author who does shady science Arnaiz-Villena shady science rejected by nature and it was mainly done by biased "scientists" in Skopje. For example from 3 top geneticists in the field "Even a cursory look at the paper's diagrams and trees immediately indicates that the authors make some extraordinary claims. They used a single genetic marker, HLA DRB1, for their analysis to construct a genealogical tree and map of 28 populations from Europe, the Middle East, Africa and Japan. Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics.
- The limitations are made evident by the authors' extraordinary observations that Greeks are very similar to Ethiopians and east Africans but very distant from other south Europeans; and that the Japanese are nearly identical to west and south Africans. It is surprising that the authors were not puzzled by these anomalous results, which contradict history, geography, anthropology and all prior population-genetic studies of these groups. Surely the ordinary process of refereeing would have saved the field from this dispute.
- We believe that the paper should have been refused for publication on the simple grounds that it lacked scientific merit.
- KG Sidiropoulos MSc PhD - University of Toronto —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.158.127.165 (talk) 03:53-03:55, 20 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] ABOUT THE NAME AND THE ORIGINS OF MACEDONIA
I do not believe that wikipedia should mess up with politican issues as it does in particular with the section about 'The Republic of Macedonia'.What should this article have as material should be the undisputable historic facts dating back since the ancient times.
Therefore,this balkan pepublic should be named FUROM,since this is the name that most countries of the world and the UN accept.
About the history and the origins of the people of that country,my fellow friends who edeit statements about it,should do some studying in advance.
I am Greek,and i will try to give some historical points about the greek view of this issue(which 'surprisendly' is the view of the most historians in the world).
The current state that wants to be called Macedonia and its people Macedonians,cannot claim this name because:
1.The ancient Macedonian Kingdom was expanding only till the southernmost city of that state,Monastir(Vitola).Only in roman times the whole area from almost dunabe to the aedean sea was named Macedonia,as an administrative division of the roman times,and not as historic region.so,FYROM's territory covers only a small area of ancient Macedonia.
2.The ancient historians say that the Macedonians are descendants of the Argeans from the Peloponnese,and so far noone has even thought to deny the greek origins of the argeans.also,according to the ancient writers,the macedonians were speaking the dorian dialect http://www.macedonia.com/english/origin.html
3.If Alexander the Great was not greek,as they state,he would not have been able to participate in the olympic games.his father,Phillip,had also participated.
4.Both the names Alexander and Phillip have a meaning in the greek language,a meaning easily identified by greek speakers.whereas,these names have no meaning in the 'macedonian language'.Alexander=the defender of men/the one who keeps other men away,and in the modern greek language there are hundrends of words that consist of the 2 words of this name: alex=keeps away,ander(andras)=man.it is ridiculous for anyone to say that these names are not greek!
5.There has never been a macedonian language,but only a greek dialect in macedonia.noone has the right to say that such a separate language existed,without having a single evidence about that.the fact that there are no monuments in this 'language' does not mean that someone destroyed probable monuments,but simply that such monuments did never exist...cause the language of the Macedonians was the greek language.
6.Perhaps the strongest evidence that these people are not descended from the ancient Macedonians is that they are slavs,and as everyone knows,the slavs came in the balkans in the 6th century,9 centuries after the death of Alexander!Furthermore,they have always been called either Serbs or Bulgarians,and only during the time of Tito's regime they were named Macedonians.
7.Their language is so similar to the Bulgarian language,that it could easily been stated that it is a dialect of the Bulgarian.
8.The tribes that still exist in Pakistan and Afganistan and claim to be descendants of Alexander's army,say that their ancestors were Greeks(Yunans)and not Macedonians as a separate nation.
I hope that the comments i have edited,will make some people search for more evidence,and that this will lead to the creation of a more accurate article about FYROM.
Perhaps the best solution would be not to remove all the words that are used in the FYROM article and are offensive for the greeks,but to be under the label that these are the things that they claim,and not appear,misleading,that this is the most widely accepted theory.
Before ending this comment,i would like to apologise to the people of FYROM(and to anyone else)who may find this offensive,but i would also like to tell them to search in historic records,before posting...cause no matter what someone says and no matter how many people may believe it,history does not change:) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.74.98.147 (talk) 15:54, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
- Great. All we got is nationalistic claims and a link to a completely pro-Greek web site. Very useful. Macedonian(talk)
00:55, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
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- I really cannot understand people sometimes...How can someone say that the ideas that i posted above are nationalistic?these are just historic facts,written and stated centuries ago!if someone will give pure evidence that what i wrote above is false and misleading,i will be the first among the greeks who will say that FYROM deserves to be named macedonia'!i am pretty sure that most of our fellows will agree with me:without evidence,nothing can be added or changed in any article.so,i will welcome any evidence opposing what is written above...—Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.202.168.110 (talk) 23:25, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- by a Bulgarian... Dear Greek, I've never heard of the theory with the Olympic games, but would say, that it seems realistic :) I don't think that Ancient Macedonians were 100% Greek, but would say, that they really were closely connected with Greeks. But this does not mean that i'm so naive to think that those peoples there are still the same. I would say that the modern inhabbitants of the Macedonian region are everything but Ancient Macedonians :D There are sure facts that in the 7th century the local inhabittants were such a small number. The slavs who came killed or asimilated them all!!! They united and consolidated with Kuber's Bulgars, Asparuh's Bulgars and Thracians and therefore noone should consider himself an inteligent person if he says that Ancient and Modern Macedonians have anything genetic in common :) From then on I would say that everythink was easy to explain. Those local inhabbitants who talked Greek and considered themselves Greeks should really be considered Greeks, those Macedonian Slavs, who united with Bulgars /bulgars united with slavs, they did not conquere them!!!/ became part of the Bulgarian country /a country with a nation, formed by the unition of slavs, bulgars and local inhabbitants(thracians)/. Those, who did not want to join Bulgars in the Bulgarian country were the other slavs, or i would say Serbs :) NO ANCIENT MACEDONIANS HERE... Just peoples living in the region called "Macedonia" with known origins, who are from the main ethnic groups on the Balkans. Nowadays it is really naive to say that modern Macedonians that live in the borders of FYROM are Greeks, because they do not speak their language, do not have their traditions...and i would say a Greek would never abandon his culture; neither you can consider them to be Serbians, because if they were, they would have joined the country of Serbia and not be separate part of Yougoslavia and now a separate country! Then ... if you don't think that people in FYROM /not concerning albanians/ are Bulgarians, what are they?! Just slavs??? If they really considered themselves separate there would have been revolutions and uprisings from the 7th century untill the 20th century!!! I've never heard of an anti-bulgarian uprising in Macedonia during the First and the Second Bulgarian State. Why would those people allow to be conquered and would never want to be liberated... And why would Samoil proclaim Ohrid a Bulgarian Capital (Macedonians believe that a king, who called HIMSELF "BULGARIAN" was a Macedonian :D :D :D) - a city in the heart of Macedonia, and why would he struggle to regain the power of Bulgaria, but not just enlarge your "Macedonian empire"... and would the Emperor Bazyl be proclaimed Bulgar-slayer after capturing the last independent Bulgarian territories /today's Macedonia/ but not even Slav-slayer ??? No, he wouldn't! This is because there weren't any other slavs there, but Bulgarians... And those people are still the same there! (82.199.193.217 20:44, 2 June 2007 (UTC)yavor)
[edit] Documents as a proof of the separate ethnicity of the Macedonians since the 15th century
1) [| Several documents as evidence of the separate Macedonian ethnicity in the 15th-18th century].
Adding: "And there are .... many Christians who perforce serve the Turk, such as Greeks, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Albanians, Esclavoni, Razici, Serbians..." - Bertradon de la Broquier, The 15th century travel-writer
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- Bertrand de la Brocuiere noticed not only Serbians, but also Rasians and Esclavinians. Do you think that there is (was) Rasians ethnicity? :) --AKeckarov 18:20, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
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Adding: "...it is very high, and here are to be found many monasteries of Christian monks, of whom some are Greeks, others Macedonians, Vlachs and even Italians, as well other nations, who live the lives of saints" - Angiolelo about Mt. Athos
2) [| Several Russian documents as evidence of the separate Macedonian ethnicity in the 18th century]. No wonder they were one of the first that recognized Macedonia under its constitutional name.
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- What an argument? Do you know which was the first country that recognized Macedonia under its constitutional name? Do you know which was the country that defended United Bulgaria in 1878 (becouse of ethnic reasons too)? Regards, --AKeckarov 18:20, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
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3) [| Several documents as evidence of the separate Macedonian ethnicity in the 19th century].
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- If we refuse to look in our history against a light of all documents, we will stay a victim of propaganda. Here and further there are two kinds of documents - 1. The little part is documents that claims that there are separate nation. 2. The documents out of context. Everywhere that used the term Macedonian in regional sense you interpret this like a ethnic term. --AKeckarov 18:28, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
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5) [| From La Macédoine et les Macédoniens, by Edmond Bouchié de Belle [E.B.de Belle, published in Paris (Librairie Armand Colin), 1922, completed in 1918]].
6) [| Letters to "Rizospastis" (Journal of the Greek Communist Party), 1932nd-1935th]. So, not all the Greek sources were denying the existance of a Macedonian ethicity.
At the end, here is what the French Consul in Salonica (end of 18th century) Felix de Beaujour tought of Macedonia: "If one regards Macedonia from the point of view of its natural advantages, one comes to the conclusion that there exists no land in Europe where the people have more prospects of prosperity. But if it is viewed from the aspect of its political forms, one comes to the conclusion that all the misfortunes of the barbarian administration have been assembled here in order to paralyze one of the most beautiful regions of the world in all its richness and variety of products".
The Macedonian question is a clear example why many people use the phrase "the asshole of the whole world" to reffer to the Balkan. And, I don't blame them at all... Macedonian(talk) 00:54, 1 November 2005 (UTC)
By the smae Bulgarian... Why do you think, that when someone says "Macedonians" he means a different nation?!!! Do you think yankees are not Amerikans!!! Have you heard of the term "Shopi". Bulgrians call this way the people who live in Central Western(where Sofia is) and Northwestern Bulgaria. Their dialect is a bit different form the officialy recognized and their genetic code is a bit different /more people with blue eyes for example :)/ People who live in Pirin Macedonia, who consider themselves Macedonians/people who live in the region of Macedonia, but not part of an unreal nation/ are very close to them and have little differences with them to and even bigger with eastern Bulgarians. What I want to say is that the "Shopi" would neeeeeeeeeeeeeeverrrr, I repeat: NEVER, consider themselves not being Bulgarians! They really think that they are part of our nation and not a different one, even if they have differences with eastern and central Bulgarians! ... And finally... Sth interesting. My grandmother's family comes from the region of Kukush /nowadays Greek Macedonia/! They all moved to Pomorie /a town on the coast of the Black sea/. She would aways consider herself a Macedonian. She really has the spirit, the character of a Macedonian. But considering herself a Macedonian does not mean that she thinks that she is part of a nation different from the Bulgarian! She really feels that she is Bulgarian, that all Macedonians are Bulgarians! (82.199.193.217 20:44, 2 June 2007 (UTC)yavor)
[edit] Bertrand de la Brocuiere
I am very grateful for the quotation of Bertrand de la Brocuiere the above. I spent some time to verify this sourse, but it was useful for me, because I found one more confirmation for my personal oppinion for Macedonistic (non Macedonian, because I am Macedonian too) theory. So, under the term "Macedonia" Bertrand de la Brocuiere didn't ment some part ot the present region of Macedonia (Vardar, Pirin or Aegean). Like many other authors he was influenced from some medieval ideas for Macedonia (the other authors was influenced from earliest antique's ideas for Balkan geography) and he clearly defined Macedonia in present day Thrace, in Maritsa valley. He wrote that the capital of Macedonia was Filipopolis (Plovdiv) in present Bulgaria. And when he talk about Macedonians he didn't ment the inhabitants of present Macedonia.
Please, let do not forget thet the border between propaganda and science is very thin. Regards, --AKeckarov 16:56, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
- Yes ,but also the border between seeing things black and white and science is thin too. Cheers, Bomac 14:07, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
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- As I am acquainted, the period 1018-1187 that territory was ruled by Byzantium. And that territory was divided into areas called "themas" (Тема;-и); there were different "themas" and some of them were Bulgaria, Paristria, Macedonia. But old administrative area called "thema" Macedonia and geografical Macedonia we understand today (Republic of Macedonia, Pirin Macedonia, Greek Macedonia.. etc.)have almost nothing in common Bregmatorie 12:53, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] On the article and the scope of the republic's history
This article needs to be completely rewritten, as it only throws bits of information scattered accross a century. I do agree however that the history of the state with a constitutional name of "Republic of Macedonia" should beging about the end of the Balkan Wars. The previous history of the region Macedonia already has it's own article.
Also, can everybody that writes anything in this article please quote their sources unless it is a recent information that can be verified by googling it. Also phrases like 'the greek government said ...' or 'the bulgarian government disliked ...' are weasel phrases, please quote your sources, and when possible, try to show all the sides of the argument. -- Capricornis 21:47, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with you; there is no point in including information about the history of older time periods (particularly those relating to ancient Macedon) as this is an article about the republic calling itself "Republic of Macedonia", not the general region of Macedonia (region). If anyone wants to argue that these older time periods should constitute part of the history of the republic, then they should definitely support this with citations from well-established peer-reviewed journals, as this is not a view that is shared by the mainstream of the scholarly community. --Radjenef (talk) 01:17, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
- I am going to be bold about this and remove the part about the ancient period. I am open to discuss this in a civilized manner in case someone has any objections. As far as I can see, Jingiby added this section last May without discussing this in the talk page, despite the general consensus at the time (see section "14. prior to 1912" of the talk page). Essentially, since this concerns the history of the ancient region of Macedonia, not the self-proclaimed modern day republic, it is already covered in Macedonia (region). Repeating these things here constitutes a fork with unfortunate implications. One could easily be confused into believing that the modern day republic has a legitimate claim to the history of Macedon. Beltenebros also explains this whole argument quite eloquently in section "1. Changes needed" (=Ancient Period=). --Radjenef (talk) 21:51, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Unsigned comments
All of you that call yourself macedonians are brainwashed by serbian propaganda mashine during the communism. You all forgot the language your grandparents spoke BULGARIAN. Historicaly this land belongs to Bulgaria and was populated by bulgarians for a 1000 years. The serbians twisted your mind and you forgot who you are. That is OK as far as you don't try to steal the history and culture of Bulgaria. If you don't recognise your identidy you will be lost forever. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.190.91.100 (talk) 23:56, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
- The bulgarians and greeks should make up their mind once and for all. Their either a Greeks or Bulgarians or there are Macedonians. I don’t understand their claims to the right to take the name "Macedonia ", the Macedonian language and culture as their own. In my country there is a saying: One person can’t seat on two chairs or two horses, because sooner or later that person will fall. So please stop you’re bullshit and declare your selves as a greek or as a Macedonian, as a bulgarian or as a Macedonian!!! You simple do not know what you want with this claims!!! Aminta - MKD —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aminta (talk • contribs) 10:39, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] the fyrom-issue today
[edit] 1. The Macedonian issue today can only be understood if the history of its development is kept clearly in mind
The Macedonian issue was reactivated when Marshal Tito set up in 1945 the “People’s Republic of Macedonia”. It was a political move fitting the Yugoslav leader’s hegemonistic plans at the time. The Skopje federative republic was seen as the nucleus – or Piedmont – for the annexation of the adjoining Macedonian provinces of Greece and Bulgaria. I am sure you are well aware that Tito, with Stalin’s help, succeeded in forcing the Bulgarian Government of G. Dimitrov to agree to cede Bulgarian Macedonia to Yugoslavia (1947). At the same time, Tito extended his support to the Communist forces in Greece during the Greek civil war, in anticipation of acquiring control of Greek Macedonian provinces. Both plans failed. When Stalin evicted Yugoslavia from the Cominform (1948), Bulgaria stepped back from the Tito-Dimitrov agreement and assumed for a number of years an aggressive role on the Macedonian issue, spear-heading Soviet expansionism. As for Greece, with the termination of the Greek civil war (1949), the immediate annexation of Greek Macedonia to Yugoslavia was avoided.
Subsequently, and despise the normalization of Greek-Yugoslav relations (1951), Skopje continued for 40 years to undermine Greek sovereignty over Greek Macedonia. The Macedonian provinces of Greece and Bulgaria were viewed “as not yet liberated”, while the “People’s Republic of Macedonia”, projected itself as the only “free part” of Macedonia, and the “Piedmont” for the unification of all Macedonian regions.
During the same 40-year period and in order to best serve its expansionist plans, Skopje attempted to appropriate and monopolize the Macedonian name. To achieve this goal, Skopje found necessary to usurp Greek historical and cultural heritage in Macedonia from antiquity to the present. Thus, Alexander the Great and Aristotle have been added to the Skopjan pantheon! So have the Greek apostles to the Slavs, Cyril and Methodius, simply because they were born in Thessaloniki! Even the victories of the Greek army during the 1940-41 war were attributed to the so-called “Macedonians” of Skopje, only because a Greek army division was named Macedonia after the name of the Greek province! Thessaloniki, whose culture, language and traditions have been Greek for 2300 years, is projected as the capital of the future “united Macedonian state”.
Evidently, by manipulating a geographical term (Macedonia), Skopje expansionists sought to convert this term into an ethnic name for a Slav nation. In the process, they obviously attempted to deny the Greek people their legitimate right to a major part of their cultural identity.
Thus, for 45 years, the Macedonian name became the major vehicle for territorial and cultural expansionism encroaching upon Greek and Bulgarian territory. Because of the continued use and abuse by Skopje of the hellenic civilization and traditions in order to promote expansionist aims, any further use of the Macedonian name by an independent state would ipso facto imply territorial expansion against Greece.
[edit] 2. In view of the historic implication and the nationalist forces behind this issue, the recognition of a Yugoslav Republic as an independent “Republic of Macedonia” would be a constant threat to peace and security in South Eastern Europe now and for many years to come
As I have explained, Bulgaria claims historical and kin ties with the Skopje region and its slavonic part of the population and has already proceeded to recognize the independence of the Republic. Moreover, very recently, recriminations between Bulgaria and Serbia were exchanged and mutual accusations for important troop movements were also hurled at each other. We all, of course, know that the area of the Republic of Skopje has historically always been the target of conflicting interests, due to its mosaic to different nationalities (Albanians, Bulgarians, Serbs, Turks, Greeks, Roma, etc). Unfortunately, 19th century images of “Greater Bulgaria”, “Greater Serbia” “Greater Albania” are still haunting today the region of Skopje, awaiting the signal of its “independence” to stake their claims…
More onimous for the future is the prospect of a national revival among Skopje’s Slav population. For 45 years Bulgarian ethnicity has been outlawed and its supporters persecuted. A clash between “Macedonists” and pro-Bulgarians will become inevitable, particularly if Sofia emerges in the role of a “big brother” for the young Republic. Allow, for instance, to refer to the VMRO parties that operate under the same name in both Skopje and Sofia. In fact, the VMRO is presently the majority party in the Skopje parliament, while their active Bulgarian counterpart presently operates as a nationalist Bulgaro-“Macedonian” movement. Both VMROs are committed to extremist nationalist goals; goals aiming to territorial expansionism. May I also remind you that in a very recent NATO document the VMRO Skopje party was qualified as a “terrorist” organization.
A more serious and immediate complication could develop as a result of inter-ethnic conflicts. Already, the ethnic Albanians, comprising almost a third of the total population of the Republic, have registered their opposition to the Skopje Government demanding self-rule. Their recent plebiscite, although conducted against Government objections and arbitrary police interventions, was a clear sign of troubles to come.
It is obvious that in the long run Skopje, an economically non-viable and ethnically antagonistic entity, surrounded by competing “suitors” and “protectors”, could be open to manipulations by stronger powers. The possibility of opening a Pandora’s box of Balkan intrigues, guerrilla warfare and armed conflicts involving neighboring states, in addition to inter-ethnic strifes in Skopje itself, could simply ignite the whole Balkan area and become a major destabilization factor for the whole Europe.
Greece will be directly affected by such developments. On the one hand, the economic and social reverberations of a possible armed conflict will be immediately felt, particularly in northern Greece (tourism, trade, movement of people, political and economic refugees). On the other hand, attempts at changing the external borders of the Skopje Republic will upset balances. The “domino effect” we are experiencing in the case of Yugoslav Republics, will contaminate neighbouring states, including Greece. Let me remind you that almost 60% of the total Greek exports are exported from northern Greece via Yugoslavia to Central and Western Europe. The consequences would thus be devastating for the Greek economy.
It goes without saying that the problems briefly enumerated above are not new. However, they now acquire a particularly acute character after Skopje’s request to become an independent state. If in the past, Skopje’s rush actions and propaganda activities have been undertaken within the framework of Yugoslavia, one can imagine the kind of dangerous adventures it will embark upon were it to become an independent state.
[edit] 3. In the interest of avoiding past destabilizing experiences and promoting permanent peace and security for the future, the prerequisites for the recognition of the independence of Skopje, as endorsed by the Twelve in the “Declaration on Yugoslavia”, must be fully respected
Unfortunately, to this date, the authorities of Skopje have failed to implement these conditions.
Indeed:
— They have not offered sufficient guarantees, constitutional or other, to ensure that they will have no territorial claims.
— They continue carrying hostile propaganda, even at this critical moment, prior to their recognition.
— They have made no attempt to find a suitable denomination for their future independent Republic.
— Greece has spared so far no effect to find fair and equitable solutions. But, despite Greek observations and suggestions concerning various provisions in the constitution raised directly with the Skopje delegation which visited Athens for talks on the implementation of the E. C. decision on 3 January, there has so far been no constructive response.
As you know, the preamble of Skopje’s constitution states that the new Republic rests upon “the statehood-legal traditions of the Krushevo Republic” (1903) and the “historical decisions of the Antifascist Assembly of the People’s Liberation of Macedonia” (ASNOM), passed in 1944. Let me explain:
The events of 1903 and 1944 highlighted the attempt by the Slavs of Macedonia to establish respectively an autonomous or an independent Macedonian state. A state which would absorb the whole of Macedonia, including the Macedonian provinces of Greece, Bulgaria and Albania. Indeed, the Krushevo Manifesto, of 2 August 1903, was an appeal to the people to “come beneath the flag of autonomous Macedonia”, while the ASNOM Communist-Titoist Manifesto of 1944, issued also on the 2nd of August for symbolic purposes, proclaimed the “just and unique demand for uniting all the Macedonian people with the right to self-determination”. It further stated: “let the struggle of the Macedonian Piedmont inspire you… it alone leads to freedom and union of all Macedonian people… Let the artificial boundaries which separate brother from brother… be swept away”.
These references in the preamble make it obvious that territorial irredentism and future expansionism are very much part and parcel of the new Constitution. Such a political model is obviously incompatible with the CSCE sprit and fundamental principles.
This is why we consider that the amendments to articles 3 and 49 of the Constitution are simply meaningless and in any way, not of nature to alter its main philosophy and its basic thrust.
— The Gligorov Government, has been engaged in a worldwide “good-will campaign” to impress on world leaders and public opinion the image of a new Republic dedicated to peace and friendly neighbourly relations. The letters sent by Skopje officials to the Arbitration Commission served a similar purpose. Yet, in practice, hostile propaganda against Greece continues unabated.
— For example, Skopje leaders during recent months have publicly spoken about territorial claims against Greece. Allow me to cite just two of them:
-- Vasil Tupurkovski, the Skopje representative to the Yugoslav Presidency, has repeatedly spoken about the unification of all the Macedonian lands. Thus, on 20 January 1991, while on the “Macedonian Heritage” TV program in Toronto, he was asked “if Macedonians should struggle for cultural and spiritual unity rather than territorial unity”. Tupurkovski replied: “I think that our national ideal cannot be limited; the territorial unity is also a part of it”. Also, in December 1990, in a radio interview at Perth (Australia), he said that the “new Macedonian state will have as its primary target, the liberation of the enslaved Macedonians and the unification of the wider Macedonian region”.
-- President Kiro Gligorov in an interview to NIN magazine, (Belgrade 1 Feb. 1991) spoke of “segments of the Macedonian people in Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria which were divided and subjugated after the Balkan Wars” and revealed that the leading “Macedonian” nationalist parties aim at a “Great Macedonia” and do not hide their intention that “the Macedonian power will redraw the borders of Greece and Serbia”!
Skopje has not ceased referring to Greek Macedonia as “Egejska (Aegean) Makedonija”, a term used to imply that the whole of northern Greece is part of a wider Slav territory. Only a few days ago, a conference was organized in Skopje dealing with linguistics questions of “Egejska Makedonija”. In fact, “hate literature” continues to appear in publications both in the Republic and abroad. A recent typical example is provided on a 1992 calendar with maps on which Greek along with Bulgarian and Albanian Macedonia are shown as part of “Great Macedonia”. Those calendars were mailed in thousands of copies throughout Greece; a clear sign of what one should expect after the recognition of independence.
— As for the denomination, Greece has had the opportunity to analyze in detail to the Skopje delegation why the term “Macedonia”, if used in the denomination of the Skopje Republic, is unacceptable as it contains by itself an expansionist notion. Indeed, as I have earlier explained, in order to best serve its expansionist plans, Skopje usurped the Macedonian name and purportedly converted it into an ethnic name for its Slav nation. This becomes all the more brazen, when one takes into account that the geographical region of Macedonia extends across four borders: in Greece (51%), Bulgaria (9,5%), Albania (0,5%) and Yugoslavia (39%). Thus, the adoption of the Macedonian name for the Republic carries the clear message that the Republic’s jurisdiction extends over the Macedonian provinces of all neighbouring states.
It should not be forgotten, dear Colleague, that the Macedonian name was granted by Tito at a time when Moscow was seeking an exit to the Aegean. It will be an irony if, years after the termination of the Cold War, the community would offer, a posteriori, a historical legitimacy to such claims.
[edit] 4. Despite all the dangers there is still time to find an equitable solution; one that may open the prospects for regional security and cooperation
Greece is the only neighbouring country which harbours no claims against Skopje. If an understanding is reached on the basis of the E. C. terms for recognition, Greece is prepared to help create a regional arrangement to meet the security needs of Skopje, as well as those of its neighbours. Thus, mutual suspicions between Skopje and individual neighbours, as well as between neighbouring countries competing for influence or dominance on Skopje would steadily evaporate.
In addition, Greece could extend to the new Republic special economic privileges, open prospects for an all round economic cooperation, and set in motion the process for a solution to all bilateral issues.
In choosing a name for the new Republic, former administrative denominations of the region could probably provide a logical and acceptable solution. It should be noted that prior to Tito’s decision to assign to Skopje the Macedonian name, no such denomination had ever been used in the past, either as a state or as an administrative denomination for that region. It is a denomination that was artificially introduced to advance territorial claims and has no historical or cultural validity.
It is more than obvious that the establishment of good relations between Skopje and Greece, is of paramount importance for both the new Republic and the whole Balkan region. First, it will allow the Skopjan Republic to survive. Secondly, it will deflate to aspirations of other powers at its own expense and will thus create the necessary conditions for peace in this highly sensitive area.
In this light, it is a matter of urgency that partners impress upon the authorities of Skopje the need to implement fully, by deeds rather than meaningless declarations, the E. C. ministerial decision of 16 December and to desist from any initiatives that may inflame the region.
If and when Skopje decides to abide by the E. C. terms for the recognition of its independence, I suggest that, at that time, an agreement be concluded between the E. C. and Skopje providing guarantees for the proper implementation of the terms specified by the Community. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.59.69.12 (talk) 01:54, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] POLL: Introduction for Republic of Macedonia article
Given ongoing discussions and recent edit warring, a poll is currently underway to decide the rendition of the lead for the Republic of Macedonia article. Please weigh in! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 01:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] prior to 1912
why isnt there no info about events prior to 1912? (im a moderate and peaceful greek, i dont want to offend anybody, pls dont offend me neither)--Greece666 07:50, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
- Because it's not the history of the Republic of Macedonia. It's the history of the wider Macedonian region and it is all covered there. Covering it here as well would be harmful by it constituting a fork. Telex 12:52, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
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- telex: fair enough, but history of france is not the history of the french state. besides if its the history of the republic of macedonia it should start from the 1990s. anyway, i understand theres another article and im not going to cover here pre-1912 events.--Greece666 19:15, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
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- Well, I think it is bad idea to start history from 1912. Republic of Macedonia was formed in 1944, not in 1912, by the way. I suppose that this article starting from the year when Macedonia region was divided between Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia describing the history of the part that was included into Serbia and later became RM. However, this view might not be correct. Macedonia region already was divided before 1912 (it belonged to 3 Ottoman vilayets), not to mention its division in medieval times. There are things that are very relevant for the history of the Republic of Macedonia prior to 1912, like mention that Skopje was capital of the Kosovo Vilayet or mention of the medieval local rulers, Kralj Marko, Konstantin Dragaš, etc. Not to mention the historical importance of the town of Ohrid, or that capitals of both, Serbian and Bulgarian Empires were here, etc. There are much things that could be written about pre-1912 period which will speak only about territory of present-day Republic of Macedonia and will not interfere with the history of Greek part of Macedonia region. PANONIAN (talk) 02:57, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
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- And here is my proposal about compromise solution: to avoid revert wars about history of ancient Macedon, history in this article should start from the time when Slavs settled in the Balkans describing the history of the Slavs from the territory of present-day Republic of Macedonia through the centuries. Opinions? PANONIAN (talk) 03:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] San Stefano
"The valley of the river Vardar, which was later to become the central area of the Republic of Macedonia, was ruled by the Ottoman Empire prior to the First Balkan War of 1912, with the exception of the brief period in 1878 when it was liberated from ottoman rule after the Russo-Turkish War of 1877-78"
well, initially it was decided that it would be part of Bulgaria, but this decision changed in the Treaty of Berlin. From what i remember, the provisions of San Stefano never materialized and so i think it is misleading to talk about liberation after the russo-turkish war.--Greece666 03:02, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
- Misleading from the perspective of the history of Republic of Macedonia? Probably. San Stefano Bulgaria was as a matter of fact realized (approximately) for about 6 years during the two World Wars. /FunkyFly.talk_ 04:27, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
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- in the article it reads: "the brief period in 1878"--Greece666 04:33, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] www.historyofmacedonia.com
Specifically lets take a look at this address. We read:
Why the Macedonians are not "Slavs"?
1. First of all, Gligorov and Veselinov are not historians, but politicians. History should not be written by politicians but should be left to the historians.
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- So far so good.
2. The Macedonian historians do not support the claim that today's Macedonians are "Slavs" who came in the 6th century. The latest book "THE DESCENDANTS OF ALEXANDER THE GREAT OF MACEDON - The arguments and evidence that today's Macedonians are descendants of the ancient Macedonians", puts an end to the "Slav" claim.
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- The book is by Alexander Donski who as of 2006, and certainly by the time he wrote it, does not have a degree in history.
3. This "Slav" claim was an old communistic propaganda influenced by Russia and Yugoslavia during the period while Macedonia was part of communist Yugoslavia (1945-1991) and both Gligorov and Veselinov were tough this line of the official then history, dictated by Slav Russia and Serbia (Yugoslavia). As stated this "political history" is outdated and is ongoing replacement.
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- How come the majority of the people in the region identified as Bulgarian only 100 years ago?
4. The roots of the Macedonians are in ancient Macedonia in Europe since 8th century BC. This is the reason why they call themselves Macedonians and not "Slavs" ever since that 8th century BC, including today.
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- This is just repeating the same statement.
5. Historical evidence (avoided by Gligorov and Veselinov of the communist school) shows that the Macedonians have called themselves "Macedonians" in every century since Alexander, both before and after the coming of the Slavs in Macedonia in the 6th century. It is the Slavs that assimilated into the Macedonians, not wise-versa, and the Macedonians continued to call themselves what they are - Macedonians.
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- This is just plain wrong.
6. And most convincing of all the fact that the genetic research had proven that the Macedonians are not Slavs but have a direct descent from the ancient Macedonians.
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- Yes, genetics is the most convincing historical tool in existence. Also disagrees with the majority of independent genetic studies.
7. The Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia, and Macedonian minorities in Greece, Bulgaria, and Albania, continue to proudly call themselves "Macedonians" and consider the "Slav" label an insult and racial slur. The western press was literary bombarded by mails, faxes, and emails from outraged Macedonians who despised being called "Slavs" during the Albanian aggression on Macedonia.
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- How is that in any way a historical proof?
8. Much greater detail on the direct descent of today's Macedonians from the ancient Macedonians is found in "THE DESCENDANTS OF ALEXANDER THE GREAT OF MACEDON - The arguments and evidence that today's Macedonians are descendants of the ancient Macedonians"
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- This is repeating claim 2. The same book.
/FunkyFly.talk_ 00:18, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] www.historyofmacedonia.com 2
i guess you didn't bother to click on this link or you read the contents of the page and didn't have enough arguments to post? which one is it ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mast3r (talk • contribs) 01:26, 16 February 2007 (UTC).
[edit] A list of questions to the Macedonised Bulgarians
РАННА ИСТОРИЯ НА МАКЕДОНИЯ СПОРЕД ПРОФ. ИВАН МИКУЛЧИК,
(Средновековни градови и тврдини во Македонија" издаден во 1997 г. во Скопје, от истакнатиот македонски археолог и професор во универзитетот Св. Кирил и Методи - Микулчиќ. )
Книгата, голема и на убава хартија со многу илустрации за информација е издадена не со пари од Софија, туку со средства на Македонското министерство за образование и култура и на Македонското представништво на фондацијата „Сорос". Истата книга не е издадена по време на „бугарската" влада на ВМРО-ДПМНЕ, туку по време на чистата „македонска" влада на Бранко Црвенковски. Што утврдил проф. Микулиќ? Сумирајќи ги резултатите од разкопините и сондажите во сите 538 стари градови и тврдини во Македонија тој соопштува, дека очигледно словенските завојувачи уште во почетокот на VI- век го принудиле преживеаното античко население масовно да ја напушти Македонија и истото се населило во денешна турска Тракија. Но словените не се населуваат во Вардарска Македонија, истакнува проф. Микулчиќ. Невините хумусни слоеви врз античките урнатини сочат на тоа дека високите македонски планини на Вардарска Македонија не биле „атрактивни" како што пишува проф. Микулчиќ за дојденците од север. Затоа тие продолжиле на југ и се населиле покрај денешните грчки крајморски рамнини.
Двеста години според Микулчиќ, Македонија останала без население. Првите новонаселеници биле прабугарите под водство на кан Кубер, син на основачот на Дунавска Бугарија кан Кубрат. Околу 680-та година со околу 600 семејства тој ги напуштил земјите на денешна Унгарија и по патот Белград - Ниш - Скопје се установил засекогаш на така наречените Керамисијсќи полиња - тоа се Битолско, Прилепско, Ресенско, Охридско и Корчанското поле. Византиските хронисти и некои бугарски камени натписи околу Мадарскиот коњак во денешна Североисточна Бугарија покажува дека и кан Кубер, основал во денешна Јужна Македонија држава наречена Бугарија, која во сојуз со Дунавска Бугарија превземала во 7-ми, почетокот на 8-ми век заеднички дејствија против Византија. Нејзините дејствија против Солун биле одбиени, но затоа пак територијалното проширување на државата на запад во рамките на Денешна Албанија било повеќе од успешно - во околината на селото Врап е пронајдена голема прабугарска ризница, која сведочи за самиот факт.
Вториот броj преселници според проф. Микулчиќ во останатите ненаселени земји на Вардарска Македонија бил пак од... прабугари. Тие дошле и се населиле во Источна и Северна Македонија после победоносната војна на бугарскиот кан Крум во Тракија против Византија во 811 година. Проф. Микулчиќ покажува, дека во тврдините покрај Крива Паланќа, Куманово, Скопје, Тетово, Гостивар, Штип се појавува грнчарија, бронзени предмети како и токи на ремени потполно идентични со откриените во бугарскатаа престолнина Плиска. А во рамнините покрај нив Микулчиќ ги одбележува посебните прабугарски населби зацврстени со земјен насип, наречени аули. Така за народот кој што живеел од Јадранското до Црното Море и од Дунав до Егеј се наметнало името бугари, заклучил Микулчиќ.
Така е, бидејќи тоа е историсќата вистина. Појасно и поточно не можат да го напишат дори бугарските историчари."
ЗАДАВАМ НЕКОЛКУ ПРОСТИ ПРАШАНЬА НА Т.Н. МАКЕДОНЦИ:
1. Кој од преродбениците кои денес и официјалната македонска историографија ги смета за духовен темел на современиот македонски идентитет, се чувствувал нешто друго освен Бугарин?
2. Чии учители биле основачите и најистакнатите членови на ВМРО? Во која институција предавале и кои предмети?
3. Членовите на Врховниот комитет основан во Софија можеле да бидат само офицери родени во Македонија, за разлика од ВМРО, каде што најистакнатите членови биле егзархиски учители, но без услов да се родени во Македонија. Во вашите книги наведувате дека Врховниот комитет е бугарски, а ВМРО е македонско, во смисла на етничка различност!?
4. Како го објаснувате фактот дека иницијативата за формирање на Бугарската Егзархија доаѓа од Македонија, како и првиот импулс за прогласување на бугарска национална и духовна самосвест, најпрво презентиран од отец Паисиј Хилендарски, роден во Банско, Пиринска Македонија, во неговата книга “Историја Славјаноб'лгарска” напишана во 1762 година?
5. Во официјалните документи за востанието од 1903 година се наведува дека е Илинденско-Преображенско востание, кое било кренато само во два од десетте окрузи на ВМРО. Зошто Вие и официјалната македонска историографија не го споменувате Преображенското востание во Одринско, област каде што живеат Бугари, за разлика од Македонија, каде според Вашите изјави живеат етнички Македонци, различни од Бугарите?
6. Документите со кои што сум запознат, во однос на водачите на ВМРО што Вие ги споменувате во книгата, секаде посочуваат на нивниот етнички бугарски идентитет?
7. Зошто Бугарија по Кресненското, Илинденското и другите востанија и по Балканските и големите светски војни, прима толку големо количество “етнички Македонци”, дозволувајќи да се смени етничката структура со прилив на “туѓо” население? Тоа ја прави единствена таква држава во светот. Зошто, пак, “етничките Македонци” бегале токму во Бугарија? Денес секој четврти граѓанин на Бугарија е по потекло од Македонија!
8. Тематската концентрација во вашите книги е генерално македонизмот како феномен. Што мислите за интерпратецијата на македонизмот, на некогашниот српски министер на просветата, Стојан Новаковиќ?
9. Познатиот славист, лингвист и историчар од германското јазично подрачје - Австриецот Ото Кронштајнер - веројатно не би се согласил со многу од Вашите тврдења. Сепак, тој е светски научен авторитет!?
На краjoт, прашањето од отец Паисиј Хилендарски, роден во Банско, Пиринска Македонија, во неговата книга “История Славянобългарска” напишана во 1762 година:
"Поради что, о неразумний юроде, се срамуваш да се назовеш българин?"
--Lantonov 11:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] fyrom history?????
Do FYROM has history???????????????????????????
[edit] fyrom history?????
Do FYROM has history??????????????????????????? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.72.92.112 (talk) 13:25, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
