Talk:History of special relativity

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Contents

[edit] Differences and similarities between Newtonian space and special relativity space-time.

(The following discussion is about the history of special relativity, but maybe it would be more fitting in an article about philosophy of relativity)

Newtonian dynamics and special relativity have themes in common, which does not come as a surprise because both theories address the very same questions.

The Principle of Relativity of inertial motion is one of the cornerstones of Newtonian dynamics. Special relativity marked a return to this principle, (but with Lorentz-transformations instead of Galilean transformations) after doubt had been cast on the principle of relativity of inertial motion by the apparent necessity to assume the existence of a luminiferous ether.

The principle of relativity of inertial motion also entails, as Newton had seen better than his contempories, a principle of relativity of inertia. In order to accelerate an object, a force must be exerted, and there there is no such thing as a difference between accelerating and decelerating, it is intrinsically only possible to measure change of velocity.

However, something must be the physical cause of inertia. There is an opposition to change of velocity, like a coil with selfinduction will oppose a change of current strength, while not resisting uniform current. The origin of inertia must be some physical interaction, opposing change of velocity while not interacting with uniform velocity. Therefore Newton had explicitly announced the assumption of absolute space, fully aware of the strangeness of the situation. Why would nature fine-tune everything to ensure that there is always relativity of inertial motion, while space is nonetheless absolute?

There was an aspect of special relativity that Einstein was very dissatisfied with. Even as he worked out special relativity he knew special relativity needed to be followed by a deeper theory. Just as in newtonian dynamics special relativity assumes an absolute background reference that is the cause of inertia. Minkowski space-time does not have absolute time and it does not have absolute space, but as a whole, als space-time, it is just as present and immutable as newtonian absolute space.

Mach's criticism of Newtonian absolute space was just as valid for special relativity as it was for Newtonian absolute space, and Einstein was quite aware of that. Mach had argued that what is seen everywhere in nature is that the laws of physics describe physical entities that act on other entities and that are being acted upon. But newtonian absolute space was immutable, it acts on matter, but it is not being acted upon. Likewise, Minkowski space-time acts on matter, as the physical cause of inertia, but is not being acted upon. It is this immutable, non-reciprocal character that is the focus of Mach's criticism.

Einstein saw special relativity as a transitional theory, it really had to be overthrown.
--Cleon Teunissen | Talk 19:02, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

I now saw the above, and I think it's quite OK although it may be supected of being OR, if no references are given. An alternative title would be Metaphysics of Relativity. And the presentaion can be next continued to the GRT in which physical space affects matter but is also affected by matter. Harald88 19:18, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] merged and reedited

I merged the History page with the version that was still on the Special relativity page, and reedited it plus made some additions. I some cases I had to make a choice between different renderings; some confusing/erroneous sentences I deleted as well as some non-relevant material that just didn't fit in. In case I stepped on a sore toe by deleting something, just reinsert any lost phrase that you may consider essential. Harald88 13:45, 29 October 2005 (UTC)


[edit] error?

I think in this text:

As the equations referred to propagation with respect to the hypothesised aether, physicists tried to use this idea to measure the speed of light with respect to the aether. It should say "speed of the Earth with respect to the aether".

Huh? Hmmm... You're dead right! No doubt about it. I correct it immediately. Harald88 19:04, 3 December 2005 (UTC)


[edit] The Role of Huygens

Um, I was wondering why there is no mention of Christiaan Huygens's role in discussing relative motion and invariants within Galilian/Newtonian space. If no one has any information on this subject, would you like me to supply it? Let me know. SJCstudent 19:20, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Sounds interesting! Please add it first here with a reference. Harald88 12:45, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup plez

Fact checking, neutralization, diction. ---CH 23:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I cleaned up the typos. JoJan 13:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sentence sense

My contribution to the discussion on need to edit the history page: the first sentence in the 2nd paragraph of the Criticisms of special relativity seems to need clarifying. soj

Done. Harald88 20:01, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Galileo did not have Galilean transformation equations?

I think Galileo did not form the Galilean transformation equations; if he did what is the reference?; I think the equations were derived later based upon his physics by others. As to the issue of light speed he was trying to measure it and failed, if he had succeded he might have formed different equations than the so-called Galilean transformation equations.

86, you're right that we bneed a reference. I know that they are on the web; hopefully one of us will add it when he/she stumbles on it again. Harald88 20:32, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
The above editor apparently added the following phrase: to the article in-between the introduction to classical relativity and the discussion of it: The relativity issue was further taken up by the Kant-Boscovich theory.
As it didn't seem to fit there (and I don't know where it would fit), I park it here for discussion where to put it, if at all. Harald88 20:18, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Need for Leibniz and Riemann

more important than Galileo is Leibniz who presented a general theory of reletivity that may prove supperior to Einstein's in Leibniz's letters with Clarke. Also it is hard to bleive this article does not get into Riemann's discoveries about the relativity of space. For example in Riemann's ON THE HYPOTHESES WHICH LIE AT THE FOUNDATIONS OF GEOMETRY, he destroys the Euclidean axioms which reletivity later was given credit for destroying. Einstein later gave much credit to Gauss and Riemann for making the discovery before himself.

I don't have time to add these two important historical figures, perhaps someone else can do the scholarly work? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.166.224.229 (talk) 07:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC).

Please, learn how to spell, and list your reliable sources that state what you have said in your above comment.

[edit] Connection with set theory?

Recently here and at General relativity and Relativity of simultaneity long sections about connections with set theory were added[1]. These additions are now reverted and sources should be given and discussed befored adding it again. --Pjacobi 16:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Here it is: please restore

[edit] Einstein's Own View of Relativity

Poincare, in SCIENCE AND HYPOTHESIS (1902), formulated the idea of natural mathematics: that mathematics inevitably led to paradoxes and to avoid or solve these, a statement had to be inserted into arguments that mathematics is an inherent human faculty. This polemical position was developed in response to the supposed set-paradoxes. The statement itself has always begged the question of the internal consistency of the arguments into which the statement is inserted. See Penelope Maddy's NATURALISM IN MATHEMATICS for a statement of the position of natural mathematics.

Recently the reason for developing the position itself has been called into question by historians of mathematics, on the grounds that the set-theoretic paradoxes are not paradoxes, and are devoid of logical content. See A. Garciadiego, BERTRAND RUSSELL AND THE ORIGINS OF THE SET-THEORETIC 'PARADOXES' (1902). Poincare's own understanding of the what was at stake in the set theory discussions around the turn of the century, has recently come under scathing attack by I. Grattan-Guinness in THE SEARCH FOR MATHEMATICAL ROOTS. According to Grattan-Guinness, Poincare had a “contempt for logic (and also ignorance of it)….” Poincaré understood mathematical logic “not very deeply….” (129,356) Einstein was never aware of this.

Einstein never looked into the set theory background of SCIENCE AND HYPOTHESIS--he never at any time questioned Poincare's formulation of the issues. Indeed, as D. Howard and J. Stachel point out in their recent EINSTEIN'S FORMATIVE YEARS, Einstein made a “careful reading” of the book (6) and he and his circle of friends, adopted its view enthusiastically. In that book, Einstein read Poincare's formulation of natural mathematics, that “the mind has a direct intuition of this power [“proof by recurrence” or “mathematical induction”], and experiment can only be for [the mind] an opportunity of using it, and thereby of becoming conscious of it.” In geometry “we are brought to [the concept of space] solely by studying the laws by which…[muscular] sensations succeed one another.” (1952 edition, 13, 58)

There is no question that Einstein adopted this idea of mathematics. He expressed it in SIDELIGHTS ON RELATIVITY:

"It is clear that the system of concepts of axiomatic geometry alone cannot make any assertions as to the relations of real objects of this kind, which we will call practically-rigid bodies. To be able to make such assertions, geometry must be stripped of its merely logical-formal character by the co-ordination of real objects of experience with the empty conceptual frame-work of axiomatic geometry. To accomplish this, we need only add the proposition:--solid bodies are related, with respect to their possible dispositions, as are bodies in Euclidean geometry of three dimensions. Then the propositions of Euclid contain affirmations as to the relations of practically-rigid bodies." (31-32)

Although self-confessedly internally inconsistent, natural mathematics was never considered a problem for the relativity of simultaneity because it was not clear where it played any specific role in the formulation of the relativity of simultaneity. However, it does. Here is Einstein's formulation of the relativity of simultaneity in RELATIVITY:

"Are two events (e.g. the two strokes of lightning A and B) which are simultaneous with reference to the railway embankment also simultaneous relatively to the train? We shall show directly that the answer must be in the negative. When we say that the lightning strokes A and B are simultaneous with respect to be embankment, we mean: the rays of light emitted at the places A and B, where the lightning occurs, meet each other at the mid-point M of the length AB of the embankment. But the events A and B also correspond to positions A and B on the train. Let M1 be the mid-point of the distance AB on the traveling train. Just when the flashes (as judged from the embankment) of lightning occur, this point M1 naturally coincides with the point M but it moves…with the velocity…of the train." (5th edition, 19-20)

The logical problem is that the term "naturally coincides" is unjustified--and it is a specific use of natural mathematics. The term is not among the definitions or postulates of the formulation; neither is it a deduction. Logically, then, it plays no role in the argument. If, however, on that basis it is dropped, and M and M' are said to coincide, then we run into a situation in which Einstein has told us to assume two Cartesian coordinate systems, but now leaves us with one, since, following from the definition of the coincidence of two points, if two parallel coordinate systems coincide at one point, they coincide at all points and are one coordinate system, not two. We have been led to a contradiction.

In formulating the relativity of simultaneity, Einstein dutifully followed Poincare's instructions. The idea that one point "naturally coincides" with another is not supposed to be among the postulates or definitions of the relativity of simultaneity. Following the natural mathematics protocol, its role is to float free of all context, serving as a facilitator of the argument. This is why the term occurs where it occurs: it “allows” one point to “succeed” another, in conformity with the demands of natural mathematics. However, its anomalous role means that the relativity of simultaneity no longer seems not to be a scientific argument.

Nor is the relativity of simultaneity the only formulation in which Einstein employed natural mathematics, or where it caused problems. As Sahotra Sarkar points out in the Stachel and Howard book, in his discussion of Einstein's 1905 paper on Brownian motion: “Einstein begins with an assumption whose status is still problematic and troubled his contemporaries: that there exists ‘a time interval ô, which shall be very small compared with observable time intervals but still so large that all motions performed by a particle during two consecutive time intervals ô may be considered as mutually independent events….'” Sarkar notes: “[t]his is essentially a very strong Markov postulate. Einstein makes no attempt to justify it….[W]here mathematics ends and physics begins is far from clear….” This is another example of the clear use of natual mathematics. (211, 220-221)

It is important to note, then, that Einstein did not intend that relativity be an internally consistent argument: he intended it to have a logical flaw, because that is what he felt natural mathematics required.

I suppose based on this, that you are saying that Einstein's relativity of simultaneity is false because it naturally leads to a contradiction within the mathematical contex which he uses?71.251.178.128 17:07, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Failure To Discuss and Reference All Of Einstein's Special Relativity Papers

This article does not reference Einstein's most important paper published in 1907. Because of this fact, people have a wrong understanding of his theory. Other important papers followed in 1910 and 1911, but they are not mentioned. In fact The Theory Of Relativity is not defined until the paper of 1911, which has this name for its title. As a minimum, these papers should be referenced, and it is my belief that the 1907 paper has been published on the web, so an external link could be provided for it. There were other papers after 1911, and they should be referenced as well.71.251.178.128 16:59, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I know of no relativity priority dispute in connection with papers published after 1906 and before the inception of GRT. Harald88 17:04, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Here are my suggestions, anonymous:
(1) Sign up for an account so I don't have to call you anonymous
(2) Be bold, and make the corrective edits you believe are necessary - make sure to include authoritative references, please!
(3) Important: Make sure to read and absorb the following warning which is printed below the edit box:
If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it.
(4) Also Important: Make sure to read and absorb this: Wikipedia is not a soapbox
Regards, Alfred Centauri 23:32, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Update necessary

This article doesn't match its goal. It looks more than a sequel to a priority dispute between Poincaré and Einstein, and not like a "history of special relativity". Also the important work between 1905-1912 by Planck, Mosengeil, Laue, Minkowski, Laub, Born, Sommerfeld, Frank etc., is not even mentioned in the article. I will try to correct this in time, if nobody disagrees. --D.H (talk) 10:32, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Based on the German version, I've rewritten the article. It now contains a new section from 1906-1906, and a much larger section from 1880-1905. However, now it's time that I quit my writings on Wikipedia for some time. Good bye! --D.H (talk) 17:16, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
The extreme edit by D.H. included removal of a paragraph long called "Looking back on special relativity". This was a mathematical piece remarking on the parallel development of linear algebra and the spacetime science. It asked if the founders needed new mathematics. One can say they did as linear algebra was an infant. But the idea of the tessarine multiplication that Cockle displayed in 1848 had been a toy of W.K. Clifford, so the mathematics was on the shelf to be used. The current article includes too much mystique on the nature of Lorentz' magical transformations; but that is where linear algebra has its source, in useful applications of transformations like the squeeze mapping.Rgdboer (talk) 02:52, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Your are right, therefore I reinserted the mathematical section. See "Mathematical background". --D.H (talk) 09:22, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you.Rgdboer (talk) 21:15, 1 April 2008 (UTC)