Talk:History of pizza

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[edit] Modern-day pizza

It would really be nice to have more detail and information here. What does this mean that the classical Italian pizza is "not the same" as "modern-day" pizza? From where does this information come? --Robotech_Master 17:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Hallo, I reverted the article. The sentence that you would like to see commented makes no sense. Modern pizza - as we know it today - was born in Italy. If you want to know more about it, you can read for example the fundamental text about the history of the italian cooking, "L'arte della cucina in Italia", edited in 1987 by Einaudi, Turin. Or, if you don't know italian, read the diary of Alexandre Dumas (1835), where he writes about pizza in Naples at the beginning of XIX century. alex2006 05:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Modern pizza was born in New York City. Sources that link it to Italy are questionable refer to a food of a slightly different configuration. --Unsigned comment posted by 63.225.141.203

Oh? How about citing your source for this contention, please? --Robotech_Master 02:37, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I have rewritten the "Modern Day Pizza" section and moved some paragraphs around. The pizza as we know it today begins when tomato was first used as a topping for flat bread in Naples. I have taken this moment as the birth of modern pizza and have moved the paragraphs around accordingly. Some might argue that the birth of the modern pizza begins with the addition of cheese to the bread and tomato however, pizza Marinara, which does not contain cheese has been called a pizza since the 18th century and is still recognised as a "pizza" in all the pizzerias in Naples and many around the world. Not only that but it is also one of only 2 types of pizza recongnised by the Associazone Verace Pizza Napoletana. I have included more information on Neapolitan pizza, particularly as it is served today and have included a picture of a pizza Marinara.Shoebill 18:30, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I've removed 'and basil' from the ingredients of the marinara. It normally doesn't have basil (see for example http://www.verapizzanapoletana.org/vpn/charter.html ). The illustration looks as though it has basil leaves on it, although I can't be sure they aren't just big oregano leaves. Cooke 18:59, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

This is rather confusing. I have regularly eaten pizza Marinara in most of the top pizzerias in Naples. I can absolutely assure you that Sorbillo, Port Alba, Di Matteo, Luigi Lombardi, Brandi and Trianon, all of whom are in the historical centre of Naples and all of whom are members of the Associazione Verace Pizza Napoletana serve pizza Marinara with basil on it. I took that picture of a Marinara in Di Matteo - Oregano leaves are tiny - the leaves in the picture are basil - I ate them :-) The only place in Naples I have been served a Marinara without basil is Da Michele but they are not members of the association. The only one of these pizzerias I can find with a website with a picture is Sorbillo. They are members of the association and this page shows their marinara with basil on it: [[1]] Shoebill2 15:28, 23 June 2007 (UTC) Shoebill2 15:35, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I have written to the Associazione Verace Pizza Napoletana to ask for clarification on this matter. They say that pizzaioli in naples do "usually" add basil to a marinara for "green colour and freshness". They go on to say it is "not a wrong thing but an old habit" (sic). So, I have updated the article putting basil back on the list of ingredients for a marinara but stating that it is "usually" added rather than implying it is "always" added. I've also added a bit at the bottom of the section on the Associazione Verace Pizza Napoletana "rules" to help clarify the situation. Shoebill2 12:28, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

'Modern' pizza certainly evolved in Italy. All existing pizzas grew out of theirs, after all. :) Jtrainor (talk) 03:43, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Beliefs

"It is also believed that eating the tip of the pizza slice last brings good luck to the eater. This can be achieved by starting at the crust, or cutting the tip off and setting it aside for later."

Why is that either not sourced, or then as an unsourced statement in this article at all anyway? Says who? Lsjzl 11:49, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Surely it does not come from Italy... ;-) alex2006 13:03, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contradictions

In this article, the original Pizza was invented in Naples (by adding tomato to bread), but later it is told that pizza was invented in Lebanon?


The First Pizzeria?

You say "The world’s first true pizzeria, Antica Pizzeria Port’Alba in Naples, ... opened as a fully fledged pizzeria with chairs and tables in 1830..." , but also that "Esposito worked at the pizzeria "Pietro... e basta così" (literally "Peter... and that's enough" which was established in 1780..."

This clearly needs correction/clarification 91.104.252.59 07:20, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

  • I wrote the part about Port Alba but not the part about Brandi. This does need clarification and I will look into it. Port Alba is considered the first true pizzeria by most of the sources I've researched but Brandi do claim to have been a pizzeria in 1780 on their website. It may be that Brandi was a pizza bakery rather than a pizzeria in 1780 but it may not be possible to prove one claim or the other. If that is the case I will re-write the section to reflect the situation.Shoebill2 09:49, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I've had a chance to look into this now. I think the apparent contradiction is caused by the word "pizzeria" - describing Pietro e Basta Cosi simply as a "pizzeria" in 1780 while Port'Alba is described as a "pizzeria" in 1738 but a "fully fledged" pizzeria in 1830. This is a false distiction. I have reserched the word "Pizzeria" and 3 main definitons are given: 1. A place where pizzas are made, 2. A place where pizzas are made and sold, 3. A pizza restaurant. These are 3 subtly different things however, the OED's definiton incorporates all 3 versions and as they are perhaps the leading authority on English I think it's the one we should go for. Port' Alba is still widely accepted as the first pizzeria in pretty much all the books and websites I've looked at so this needs to stand. The confusion can be removed by taking out the "fully fledged" part of the article and I have done this (with other minor re-writes). Brandi do not specify whether they were just a pizza bakery in 1780 as opposed to a pizza "restaurant" with chairs and tables and until some evidence is presented that they pre-dated Port'Alba on either of these respects then we must assume that they didn't. Shoebill2 11:47, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] American Pizza corrections

I removed the Frank Pepe claim to be the first pizzeria in the United States. Off the top of my head, I can name 4 establishments that opened before them: Lombardi's, Tottono's, Joe's Tomato Pies, and Papa's Tomato Pies (both in Trenton). Also, the dates given in the articles directly contradict any claim for Frank Pepe being the first. On a side note, I also removed the New Haven recipe used for decades comment. Frank Pepe's original pie was an anchovy pie. The New Haven pie that is famous is the Clam Pie and wasn't available until after the opening of Frank Pepe when he started putting clams sold by a local street vendor on it. Coumarin 20:21, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Persian Pizza

I've asked for a citation here because I have not seen this idea for the etymology of the word before in any of the references I have read. Ideas about the word origin are quite mixed and it may even be Germanic. Could you let us know the source of this idea that the word "pizza" is derived from "Persia"? Also, what particular Persian dish is it that inspired the Italian travellers? Were they actually using tomato as a food before the Italians? Shoebill 18:09, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

From what I have read pizza like dishes existed in the ancient world since the Egyptians and the Babylonians, before the Persians. Ancient Greeks who founded Naples in the 7th and 6th centuries BC were known for their pizza like dishes derived from popular ancient Greek cuisens such as the maza or plakuntos flat breads that were seasoned with herbs and various toppings such as fresh vegetables, olives, cheese, olive oil, garlic fish, fruit, and sweets; it was a popular dish with regular Greeks because the flat bread was used as an eatable plate loaded with toppings. In The Pizza Book; Everything There Is To Know About The World's Greatest Pie, published by Times Books states the Etruscans in northern Italy brought with them the ancestor of focaccia that was a pizza like bread with a topping but it was more bread than pizza. The Greeks who colonized Naples in the 7th century BC perfected techniques they picked up from the Egyptians and Babylonians and are responsible for the type of a pizza prototype that fostered the Neapolitan style pizza. The Greeks developed sophisticated ovens and levening for their "plakuntos" which means flatplate in Greek and used in the form of an eatable plate describe above. The concept of a topped bread as a meal is of Greek origin many dishes developed during the golden age in Greece were meant to be eaten while reclining--which was the accepted table manner of the day. The plakuntos was baked with toppings of cheese, herbs, onions and olives on a a round bread with a rim. Plato describes a Greek "pizza" like dish in his Republic: "They will provide meal from their barley and flour from their wheat and kneading and cook these ... they [the pies] will also have relishes—salt ... and of olives and cheese; and onions and greens." Around 600BC when the Greeks occupied southern Italy they brought with them the plakuntos, which was later named "placenta" by the Romans. The word pizza comes from an adjective that specifically describes the dark, tar bake on the bottom of the placenta--it was called "picea" and that's where the modern word pizza derives. ~The Pizza Book; Everything There Is To Know About The World's Greatest Pie by Evelyne Slomon[2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10] Nex 18:09, 3 May 2007


  • I will try to incorporate some of this into the article soon. The origins of the word are uncertain and widely disputed - I'll include an etymology section to include the main theories. I don't think it can be said for sure that the ancient Greeks were the first to top a flat bread - remember, flat breads go back to the neolithic and have been eaten right across Europe, the Middle East, China and the Indian subcontinent - I suspect topped flatbreads have appeared many times in many locations going back thousands of years. Shoebill 20:07, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


I have now included "plakuntos" in the origins section and added an etymology section. I don't think the Plato reference is safe though - the part you quoted comes from 2 different paragraphs. Have a look at the full text here and you can see that there is not much in it to suggest he is talking about a pizza like dish: [11] Shoebill 11:43, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, interesting. Thanks for the link. Nex 10 May 2007

[edit] Expand

Please expand the article to include more information--Arceus fan 21:25, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] chinese beliefs about pizzas

I noticed that User:Aqwis boldly removed the text on pizzas being invented by the Chinese. I understand the boldness, as the then version of the article didn't actually clearly start off saying that this belief is false. This was due to another recent edit which removed this. I recalled reading a previous version that was more clear, and I restored that. I also added a few more citations that show the prevalence of this belief. I think the belief is common enough to warrant a section in this article. It also seems to be fairly well-established that this belief is considered false. So, I suggest we keep this bit. Martijn Faassen (talk) 23:24, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] pizza

who invented pizza

  not sure  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.174.247.82 (talk) 18:42, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edits to origins section

I have reverted all the recent edits by 70.241.76.161 and 129.2.147.96 and will explain:

1. The spelling in the quote from Virgil is correct - it may be archaic but it is the correct spelling. You can find this quote with this spelling convention from various academic sources on the internet.

2. I take your point that flatbreads flavoured with other ingredients are ubiquitous in human culture however, this article is not "the history of flavoured flatbreads" it is the history of a specific flavoured flatbread called "pizza". Although pizza is not always easy to define, there is a clear lineage of a tomato based flatbread originating in the Campania region of Italy and spreading throughout the world since the late 19th century. The belief that pizza originated in China as the green onion pancake is therefore "erroneous" because that is simply not the source of the dish we call pizza - I agree that it has similarities with pizza but a study of the history of pizza suggests that the similarity is coincidental.

3. Similarly, the fairly widespread belief that pizza was invented in the USA is also erroneous and it is clearly relevant to dispel such a myth in a history of pizza. Of course many variations on the pizza theme have indeed been invented in the USA but they still follow a direct lineage from the Italian dish - they are called "pizza" for example because they are based on the Italian dish called "pizza", brought to America by Italian immigrants in the late 19th century.

You say that "the concept of pizza has been international" but that is not correct: the concept of a flatbread with added ingredients is certainly international but the concept of the particular flatbread we call pizza is Italian in origin. Shoebill2 (talk) 11:03, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Shoebill2, I agree with your edit and thanks for the explanation on the talk page. It's important for the article to point out widespread but inaccurate beliefs, and not to leave this in the middle. Unless of course someone can come up with academic quality citations in favor of a Chinese or American origin. Martijn Faassen (talk) 19:19, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] origins section again

There seems to be a little battle going on here so let me state my case for reverting these edits:

1: The use of the word "humankind". This is the word used originally in the article (by me) and should not be changed without good reason. Technically it means exactly the same thing as "mankind" so to that extent they are synonyms and therefore interchangeable, however, many writers (including myself) feel that "mankind" has sexist connotations and prefer "humankind" and that's why I used it. Wikipedia also encourages "Gender-neutral language" so, if you are going to use "mankind" instead of "humankind" please state clearly why you think it is preferable and how the article is improved by it. The most recent version of this sentence was "Bread is one of the oldest prepared foods of humans," - this is clearly a clumsy line.

2: The use of the word "flavoursome" instead of "flavorful". Again, they are synonyms or as "Swampfire" put it when swapping them: "flavorful and flavorsome [sic] mean exactly the same thing" which of course begs the question: "why change it then?" So, if you want to change it, please state clearly why you think "flovorful" is preferable to "flavoursome" and why you think the article is improved by the change. Also, if you are going to Americanise the spelling please make sure you do do consistently throughout the article. Shoebill2 (talk) 11:08, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

read the edit, I did not mention it while changing it, I merely took the u out to reflect what this website states about wording. I could careless about wether it is flavorful or flavorsome, but the proper word should be the flavorsome not flavoursome even though the are similar, the same as if you spell aluminum on here and not aluminium. Actually this particular version of wiki says to use the american english version, which is why I took out the u. But check the history i did not change the (some to ful)Swampfire (talk) 23:40, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I apologise - you are quite right, you didn't swap the words - I should pay more attention ;-) I'm not clear on the American-English thing though - I don't particularly object but just so I know, where does it say that it should be in American-English? If you could point me to that reference it might help me understand when to use American and when to Use British - thanks. Shoebill2 (talk) 13:55, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

"Humankind" and "flavoursome" are both, to my eyes, awkward and self-conscious word choices. Rather than enhance the article, they get in the way -- when the little voice in your brain should be sating, "hey, that's interesting about pizza!", instead it says, "huh; I wonder why the editor chose *those* words?" I take the point about gender-neutral terms but - in my opinion - "humankind" is not a good solution. I've substituted "civilization", which is accurate, neutral and familiar. "Flavoursome" may be a common term in UK or other non-US English (I don't know) but it to the US reader at least, it is a clumsy choice. I changed it to flavorful to avoid the problem. JohnInDC (talk) 11:22, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


There are some problems with your changes. The word "Civilisation" does not work if you consider the definition of the word. Here's the Wikipedia definition: "A civilization or civilisation is human society or culture group normally defined as a complex society characterized by the practice of agriculture and settlement in cities." The problem is that this article clearly states (in the same line) that bread dates back at least to the neolithic and therefore pre-dates civilisation. So, it is factually incorrect to say that bread is a product of civilisation.

The Wikipedia article on gender neutrality (which I just found) suggests the word "humanity" in place of "man" so how about we replace the words "mankind" or "humankind" with "humanity"? It sounds more awkward to me than "humankind" but it avoids the factually incorrect "civilisation" and has been pre-approved by Wikipedia.

You state that you have changed "flavorsome" to "flavorful" on the grounds that it sounds better to Americans but you have to bear in mind that you are looking at an international article with American eyes. If the article was about American pizza then specifically American terms would be appropriate. I would like to point out that English is spoken by up to a billion people according to some estimates and only 215 million of them are American. Have a look at this link which suggests that "flavorsome" is used in The US Canada and the UK while "flavorful" is only used in the US and Canada. This suggests that while "flavorsome" sounds awkward to you, it might sound fine to a a larger number of people than "flavorful" [[12]]Shoebill2 (talk) 13:05, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree that Wikipedia is international in scope, and of course American speakers of English are in the minority. I am guessing that UK speakers are an even smaller fraction. Numbers though aren't the point - else we'd be writing these for Indian ears. I was unaware that "flavorful" was an Americanism, so let's try to come up with a word or phrase that doesn't sound funny to any English speakers. Maybe we can substitute "add flavor", something like that. As for "civilization" - well, if that's wrong then I would take "mankind", baggage and all, over "humanity" (which carries confusing broader connotations - Wikipedia def: "the human species, human nature (e.g.compassion, altruism) and the human condition (the totality of experience of existing as a human)") or "humankind" (for the reasons I gave above; no Wikipedia definition). "Humanity" also goes too far back, I think - bread presupposes agriculture (right?), but humanity predates that. We could of course duck the entire problem by simply saying, "Bread is one of the oldest foods prepared by humans, dating back at least to the neolithic." JohnInDC (talk) 14:19, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

How about "tasty" rather than "flavorful"? Bread does not necessarily presuppose agriculture and it certainly does no presuppose settlement in cities which is a key concept in the definition of "civilisation". As I said, I agree that "humanity" is awkward but it is on the Wikipedia gender neutral page. Clearly I prefer "Humankind" as I think this is simply a non-sexist version of "mankind" - perhaps it is good to encourage these words through use? "Humankind" is in the Merriam Webster American dictionary and has been around since 1594 so I struggle to see the objection. "Prepared by humans" sounds like a line from Star Trek to me - someone proposed a similar version quite recently. I will concede to "flavorful" but will resist sexist terminology. OK, how about this: "Bread is one of the oldest prepared foods and dates back at least to the neolithic. Records of people adding other ingredients to bread in order to make it more flavorful can be found throughout ancient history." It simply removes the problem - I don't think it flows quite so sweetly but it's not too bad. Or, even more concise: "Bread dates back at least to the neolithic and records of people adding other ingredients to bread in order to make it more flavorful can be found throughout ancient history." Shoebill2 (talk) 15:49, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Comma after neolithic and it's fine - well done! JohnInDC (talk) 19:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Have edited based on our discussion. Not sure about the comma so have not added one - please feel free to add it yourself as you feel appropriate. Shoebill2 (talk) 09:25, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Knowing how parsimonious the speakers of British English are with commas I anticipated that. It's fine with me! JohnInDC (talk) 10:25, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Problem with the template

I'm not sure if it is called a template but I am talking about the box at the top right of the page. I don't understand the separation of pizzas into "regional variations" and "ethnic variations". Why is New York style pizza a "regional" variation but Mexican pizza is an "ethnic" variation - they are all regional variations. I therefore feel that there should only be one box called "regional variations" and one of the regional variations should be "American pizza". To list all the American variations in their own section, separate from all other variations greatly exaggerates the importance of American pizza and biases the article. I would sort this out myself but I just can't see how you edit the template! Technically, if you want to have 2 boxes - one for "regional" and one for "ethnic" then Italian variations like Neapolitan, Roman and Sicilian pizzas should be in the regional box while Mexican, Greek and American should be in the ethnic box.Shoebill2 (talk) 20:06, 17 April 2008 (UTC)