Talk:History of perpetual motion machines

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[edit] first law

"Perpetua mobilia of the first kind are those devices that violate the first law of thermodynamics, the principle of conservation of energy, creating energy out of nothing. Most attempts fall into this category. " Thats not true is it? Almost every single one is trying to violate the second law as far as I can see. 90.240.147.56 20:28, 12 July 2007 (UTC)


[edit] copyright

I converted this Wikipedia article from Eric's webpage because it contains interesting information which I believe belongs in Wikipedia. Concerning the question of copyright, Eric's webpage does not mention any copyright claims. Besides, one cannot easily make copyright claims on historical information like that in the article. Furthermore, as Wikipedians edit and integrate this article, it will become less and less like Eric's original version. Although Netiquette states that one should notify Eric when using his work, Eric unfortunatly does not make obvious on his webpage a way to contact him. --Anon.

If it copies the article, it's a copyright violation, see Wikipedia:Copyrights. Even if it has changed afterward, (IANAL) but it's a derivative work and can still have legal problems. I'll check the copyright issue (from the ext. ln) when I have a moment, unless someone beats me to it Dysprosia 11:08, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
M:Avoid_Copyright_Paranoia --Anon.

Regarding copyright -- if something doesn't mention a copyright that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'm concerned with the many copyings that took place and I think this article should be completely rewritten if it is to remain; many of the phrases are identical to the referenced web page now. Additionally the article is hardly taking a very encyclopediac tone. While I agree the article should say that any such claims are unproven and many have been proven to being a delusion or a scam, the language used in the article is overly aggressive. User:Martijn faassen

The un-encyclopediac tone you mentioned clearly exists at the present time. However, disregarding the copyright question for a moment, wouldn't it be O.K. to leave this article in Wikipedia for the purpose of letting me, you, and other Wikipedians reword it over time using the neutral point of view? I have already done a small amount of this. --Anon.
The tone issue is not the most important in my mind and can be fixed. I'd already started doing some minor typo fixes until I noticed the dubious copyright status of this page. Copyright is my primary concern here. You can't just copy a web page assuming there's no copyright if no such is mentioned; that's asking for trouble. This article copies far more than a few lines. User: Martijn faassen
In response to your regard towards copyright, I agree with your comment that "if something doesn't mention a copyright that doesn't mean it doesn't exist". However, following the philosophy of trying to avoid paranoia about copyright, shouldn't we leave it up to the author of the original article to ask that we remove it from Wikipedia, rather than worrying about a possible copyright that the author did not care enough about to mention on his webpage? --Anon.
Its better to settle issues of copyright first, as a general rule of thumb, to save us being sued in case there's an issue of copyrighted material. Maybe someone should ask Eric (whomever he may be) whether he doesn't mind the Wikipedia using his work... Dysprosia 11:32, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)
M:Avoid_Copyright_Paranoia --Anon.


His email is eric@voicenet.com - I don't know who is authorized to ask him permission. Mark Richards 05:16, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)


It's now 31 March, with no resolution for this issue: I have posted a notice on this page, and listed it on Wikipedia:Copyright problems. -- The Anome 08:45, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] copyright request

SENT JDR 09:14, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Dear Eric Krieg,

I am writing to confirm whether permission is granted to use a page from your website under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License (http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/GFDL). A user with the IP 68.163.254.159 has pasted in text from your website Eric's history of Perpetual Motion and Free Energy Machines (http://www.phact.org/e/dennis4.html) to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, on Feb 2004 at 04:54, 14.

The text concerns History of perpetual motion machines and the original submission can be viewed at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=History_of_perpetual_motion_machines&oldid=2388665

An anonymous user added your information, and it is unknown if that user has permission to use this material. But for the page to remain on our site, we need clarification ifthe information can be use.

The article will be deleted in seven days time if permission is not confirmed, though can be undeleted at a later date if you choose to respond later to state that such use is allowed.

Thank you for your time. I look forward to your response.

Yours faithfully, J. D. Redding User:Reddi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Reddi

RECIEVED JDR 10:16, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Subject: Re: Information inquiry From: eric <eric@voicenet.com> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 13:53:47 -0500 (EST)

that's fine - you are welcome to mirror anything from my site from phact.org on downward

[edit] wikilinks

I'd just like to comment that this page now contains an excessive amount of wikilinks which makes the page hard to read. Let's only put in wikilinks which are at least somewhat relevant. We don't need wiki links to English language, king or war from this page. These are commonly understood terms and people will not normally get a sudden urge to research the article on kings when reading a line which happens to mention one. These links only distract when reading. Links to years I can accept. Years to historical figures, sure. But links to, say, evidence, theory, mail, officials, community, petition and American seem rather overzealous. Martijn faassen 23:29, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

I would like to also point out that a lot of the wikilinks that are currently on the page are broken. I mean, an inordinate amount. How did so many links become broken?
I tried to follow a lot of them, and apparently the pages for those links no longer exist. That is very interesting. Is it also significant? -- Jane Q. Public 21:54, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] hodgepodge?

This page strikes me as a hodgepodge of hoax/scam/discredited inventions/or claim of production of cheap energy.. most of them are unrelated to perpetual motion machines...

Take these excerpts taken for the page...

(1) "In 1926, Albert Einstein and former student Leó Szilárd co-invented a unique type of refrigerator (usually called "The Einstein Refrigerator")."

Although, this is factually correct but they dont claim to have invented a perpetual motion machine, but a fridge..

(2)In 1999, Renzo Boscoli, of Italy, claims to have developed a method for low-energy nuclear reactions. Boscoli did not give a demonstration nor supply proof that was promised to Infinite Energy Magazine investigators (in particular Gene Mallove)

Cold fusion, be it true or not, doesnt not claim to extract energy from the ether.. It simply what it is said, fusion at low temperature, nothing to do with perpetual machines..

(3) Guido Franch reportedly had a process of transmuting water atoms into high-octane gasoline compounds (named Mota fuel) that would decrease the price of gasoline down to 8 cents per gallon. This process involved a green powder (this claim may be related to the similar ones of John Andrews (1917)). He was was brought to court for fraud in 1954 (acquitted) and, again, in 1973 (convicted). Justice William Bauer and Justice Philip Romiti both observed a demonstration in the 1954 case.

Guido franch claims to have found a cheap source of energy, be it true or not, there are no claims of perpetual machine being made ...

This is only three examples I lifted, but in fact most of the article is ridden with them ...

vitaleyes --11:20, 4 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Einstein and Szilárd dont claim to have invented a perpetual motion machine, but a fridge. The principles though are important. Because it has no moving parts, one of these devices would last hundred of years without any kind of maintenance.
Cold fusion doesnt not claim to extract energy from the aether (why you mention the luminous aether here is puzzling to me). That is also not what is important here. Renzo Boscoli claims an infinite energy resource, a type of perpetual motion.
Nothing to do with perpetual machines? On the contray it does.
Guido franch claims relates to the energy resources of perpetual machine proponents seek ... it is not an infinite energy resource nor a device that would last last hundred of years. This could be a case to remove it from the article. It does ring with the "energy suppression" lines from PMM proponents. So mabey it could be left in the article. Also the claim of _transmuting_ water atoms into high-octane gasoline without requiring additional energy input seems related.
An alternative solution to consider would be to move the info here till an appropriate artile is created.
The article is ridden with unrelated items? Please point out more ... but many are related.
JDR
You are correct vitaleyes, the article is full of irrelevancies. Do you want to remove them? Moriori 22:43, Jul 9, 2004 (UTC)
Correct? YMMV on that. Remove them? Lets make sure that it's appropriately removed (and of the 3 above example only one could really be removed honestly). JDR
Which two do you suggest come under the classification Perpetual Motion Machines? That is what the article is supposed to be about, according to the heading. Moriori 02:26, Jul 10, 2004 (UTC)
Which two do I suggest come under the classification Perpetual Motion Machines? Specifically [1] and [2]. I thought that the above notes would explain that. [3] is shaky.
The hypothetical perpetual motion machines (and associated "Perpetual Motion") is what the article is supposed to be about (you don't necessarily have to point that out to me ... haveing written most of it and having read nearly all the external links in the article).
JDR 03:30, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I still object to Slizard and Einstein fridge. It is true that it doesnt have any mechanical part and doesnt need maintenance ( i dont know if it has been built yet). A radio can be built without any moving parts but that doesnt justify its entry in this list. By the way, there are fridges built on the Peltier-Seebeck effect that dont have any moving parts, it is nifty but it is not a perpetual motion machine.I still maintain that claims of infinite energy are unrelated to a perpetual machine. Of course, a perpetual machine needs to extract energy from a source but i dont think this article should narrow its scope and focus on machines. To disserve an entry, the inventor should have a prototype of some sort or a blueprint of a machine to be built. For your information, getting energy for nothing is often called extracting energy from aether. That's a concept of the 20th century when scientists realized that the vaccuum energy is infinite (in some sense). Speculations have come on how to tap this infinite source of energy (often based on the Casimir effect). Of course it doesnt work, Vitaleyes 13:37, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I've removed the entry on the Einstein refrigerator. That design, or a similar one using different chemicals, is in use in nearly every recreational vehicle in the world. The biggest advantage it has is that it can run off a heat source such as a propane burner, rather than requiring electricity like a compressor-driven refrigerator does. --Carnildo 01:19, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Some years ago, I don't remember when, I was shown a "perpetual motion machine". It included a battery that was being charged by the machine, but not charged enough. QUITTNER 142.150.49.171 17:40, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] what a mess

God, this page is a mess. I have removed all the italics from names, and in the process removed a few completely unsupported statements along the lines of "In 2001, so-and-so of this-city said he had an over-unity engine. As of 2002, it is not know if it has been tested" ... stuff like that. But it's still an overloaded mess that nobody will read through. - DavidWBrooks 02:45, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Renormalization and Regauging

Renormalization ist "Regauging", whatever "regauging" is. It is especially not that, what Greg Watson claims, as his "regauging" is an alleged physical process whereas Renormalization is calculation technique. --Pjacobi 20:58, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

"Regauging" (of the physical factors) as used by the PPM community (in calculations) is "Renormalization". J. D. Redding Pjacobi yo are right. J. D. Redding

[edit] William M. Connolley Removal of commonly cited topics

16:53, 10 March 2006 William M. Connolley m (→1900 to 1950 - wardenclyffe has nothing to do with PM. Nor do carbs...)

The carb is related to the 100 mile carburator ... a means to "free energy" [it isbn't over unity, but suppose to be highly efficient ... but the patent and inventor is the one cited often in the historical accounts ... it's just a hi oxidized gas system] ... He removes it without knowning why it included.

Wardenclyffe is included in alot of literature on "free energy"... even http://www.skepticwiki.org/wiki/index.php/Nikola_Tesla knows that it is part of the perpetual motion myths ... (what he intended was real and based within engineering and experiment ... )

J. D. Redding 02:21, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense. You like Wardenclyffe because of your Tesla obsession. It has nothing to do with this article. And efficient carb is also nothing to do wih perp motion. Do try to have some faint idea of what you're editing William M. Connolley 11:27, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
If you don't like the fact call them nonsense. skepticwiki.org is but one ... it is related to this article
You dislike Wardenclyffe because of "Teslaphobia" ...
And efficient carb is also someting to do with "free energy" (not in the PMM).
Do try to have some faint idea of what you're editing (have little knowledge on history before you write about history). This article covers all the "free energy" timeline ... the title is there because it's the most common term for it ... J. D. Redding 15:51, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Request for Addition

The Dunking Bird Machine. Did not find a mention of it anywhere.

--Bolasanibk 05:39, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

It is not a perpetual motion machine. The thing is driven by the evaporation of water. The air has less than 100% humidity, which is where the free energy comes from. pstudier 06:08, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
My understanding was that none of the other machines mentioned in this page are actual Pepetual Motion Machines,(Do correct me if I am wrong) but only claim to be one. With this criteria the Dunking Bird does qualify for inclusion. --Bolasanibk 08:02, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
The difference is that nobody pretends the Dunking Bird is a perpetual motion machine. - DavidWBrooks 10:28, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough. However, on the Wiki page "Drinking Bird" it is specifically mentioned that its not a PMM. (BTW where the hell did I get the 'Dunking'!! Bird from :-)
And don't break one! I did, and the chemicals which cause just the right evaporation/condensation behavior ate through the finish on my floor and have left and apparently permanent pink stain. - DavidWBrooks 17:19, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edits by Linda Hall Library anon in Kansas City, MO

I reverted edits to this article by 204.56.7.1 (talk · contribs) (registered to Linda Hall Library in Kansas City, MO). For example this anon removed the information that "In 1775 Royal Academy of Sciences in Paris, made the statement that the Academy "will no longer accept or deal with proposals concerning perpetual motion". The reasoning was, that perpetual motion is impossible to achieve and that the search for it is time consuming and very expensive."

The Kansas City library anon (who uses machines at a variety of libraries in this city) is one of the perennial problem users at WP, currently involved in an edit war at Nikola Tesla.---CH 19:06, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Hey mr. "jump the gun", I did not "removed the information"!!! This comparison shows that I move it to the appropriate place in the timeline as to it's date! sheesh! You Hillman are a problem user, look before you leap and check the history. 204.56.7.1 20:42, 25 May 2006 (UTC) [ps., it's already stated over and over that "motion is impossible to achieve" in the article.]
Do you think its Reddi? William M. Connolley 20:15, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd have to compare their interests, personal style, etc. to be able to make a firm conjecture, but yes, on the basis of what I've seen so far, I certainly think this is possible. ---CH 23:22, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Anon 204.56.7.1 (talk · contribs), if you still think your changes were appropriate, can you briefly explain here what you were trying to do and let us comment? ---CH 23:25, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

In edits to Talk:Nikola Tesla by the kc.umkc.edu anon and to that article and this one by the Linda Hall Library anon, some stylistic markers are consistent with the hypothesis that the Kansas City Library anon is indeed a single individual. ---CH 05:52, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Howard Johnson's motor

Quote:

Patents
This sort of invention has become common enough that the United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) has made an official policy of refusing to grant patents for perpetual motion machines without a working model. The USPTO has in the past granted a few patents for motors that are claimed to run without net energy input. These patents were issued because it was not obvious from the patent that a perpetual motion machine was being claimed. These are:
* Johnson, Howard R., US4151431 "Permanent Magnet Motor", April 24, 1979
...

My understanding from reading an old article about this (Science & Mechanics, Spring 1980 [1][2])is that the USPTO did indeed understand that Johnson's motor was a perpetual motion machine and did refuse to proceed without Johnson showing a working model. Johnson demonstrated at least two models. I don't know how much investigation the USPTO did on them but presumably they were either satisfied or frustrated enough to grant the patent -- or maybe it was just cheaper and simpler to do that than to actually find out what Johnson was doing. The patent was surely invalid simply because no one else has since succeeded in duplicating the motor and patents are supposed to tell anyone "skilled in the art" (here presumably electric motor construction) enough to duplicate the invention. Of course Johnson never marketed any motors after the patent was issued, though he was alive as of 2003.

And no, I don't know what happened to the models. -Wfaxon 19:26, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Motore di Schietti

Motore di Schietti