Talk:History of painting

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Contents

[edit] Old stuff

Should contain mention of anti-painting tendencies such as Miro's "murder of painting" and the advent of conceptual art. --Daniel C. Boyer

Since when has the European Renaissance been considered part of the 20th century?

Since when has the European Renaissance been considered part of the 20th century? - T. Humiston

There's gotta be some way to merge this, Art movement, Art styles, periods and movements, and Art history - it seems like things are getting repeated over and over... --STLEric 21:15, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

  • Painting history is not the same as art history. If our articles give that appearance, it is simply bias on our part. — 0918BRIAN • 2006-01-22 06:22

[edit] Where's the 21st Century?

Are we incapable of contextualizing painting in the 21st century in history? Or are there no emerging "movements" to add? Vanessa kelly 19:49, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

New category added: Contemporary painting in the 21st Century. Modernist 14:58, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Bouguereau ? 195.33.116.129 11:29, 3 July 2007 (UTC) Keith Brown

I'm not an art history expert, but shouldn't the 21st century section be underneath the "Western Art" section - the sole picture shown right now is from a Chinese artist. In fact, perhaps the modern art section should altogether be in its own category, as there are probably major non-Western artists in the 20th century, and the categories for other cultures pretty much only talk about historic art. Though you could argue that even non-Western artists used "Western" influences, i.e. the movement towards abstract art could be considered to be the result of Western-style freedoms. DisgruntledWaterlooStudent 01:56, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Missing centuries

The period 1525-1725 is hardly covered. Does that mean European art was going through a dull phase then? Anwar 20:28, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Islamic Painting

Quote: "The depiction of humans, animals or any another figurative subjects is forbidden within Islam to prevent believers from idolatry so there is no religiously motivated painting (or sculpture) tradition within Muslim culture."

Not to be too incredibly mean or anything, but this person is very ignorant on the subject and uses a tone as if in a soapbox to discredit Islamic art. Not only did Muslims depict the facial features of the Prophet Muhammad up until the 16th century, but every single piece of artwork in the Islamic painting section completely contradicts this statement and following statements in that part of the article. Can someone (who is somewhat knowledgeable in Islamic art) please rewrite this entire section, as the entire thing is nothing but non-sensical opinionated blabbering that doesn't belong in wikipedia. Thank you.--PericlesofAthens 15:46, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for helping me to return images of Islamic paintings to the deleted gallery today. I was surprised by the deletions with no warning. As to the text, I agree an expert on Islamic painting which is clearly filled with both imagery and meaning would be useful. Modernist 22:16, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
No problem, it was in sore need of images. It is a shame that I am no expert on Islamic art, but I'm sure some valuable tid bits of info can be learned from the wiki article on Islamic art.--PericlesofAthens 05:03, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] South Asian Painting

The gallery of art from India desperately needed some substantial pieces of art, so I have expanded it with classical works of art from India to replace some of the cheesy contemporary stuff that looked like they were painted within the last ten years.--PericlesofAthens 10:22, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, really cheesy, looks better now. I'm beginning to wonder about African art, I'd like someone to step up to the plate, there Modernist 15:10, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
There is just very little sub-Saharan painting surviving except the very old and the very new. Johnbod 16:03, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Veltzer Doron

Veltzer Doron, 2007 Contemporary painting from Israel
Veltzer Doron, 2007 Contemporary painting from Israel

I removed the above from the article because there are no google hits for this artist. If you think this should be included in the history of painting please write an article about Veltzer Doron, thanks Modernist 15:48, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] East Asian Painting

In my opinion, having the gallery images in chronological order makes sense and looks good. Modernist 17:17, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] article is too complex

IMO this article is hopelessly overbloated. Why is Chinese painting explained far and wide if a separate article about it exists already? Give a short explanation and if anyone wants to read on just go that specific article. Also all the images in the galleries make surfing the article unwieldy, a link to the respective Wikimedia Commons category should suffice. I don't think you need to show as many images as possible, if anyone wants to see more they should go to the Commons. Gryffindor 23:29, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Why is Chinese painting explained far and wide if a separate article about it exists already?

??? Explained far and wide? I fail to see the comparison between it and the explanation for Western painting, which is 6 times larger than Chinese painting. The textual section of South Asian painting is equally as large as Chinese painting; why should either one be shorter than the other?--Pericles of AthensTalk 16:58, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction

This page says that the Chauvet Cave paintings show "...lions, buffalo, mammoth or humans often hunting" whereas the Chauvet page says that, "Typical of most cave art, there are no paintings of complete human figures, although there is one possible partial "Venus" figure that may represent the legs and genitals of a woman."

Whatever this partial Venus figure is doing, she is not hunting, so these two pages say different things about the same paintings. Can someone please sort this out. 81.151.182.165 (talk) 07:22, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More on images

It is almost never acceptable to use non-free images in galleries because of WP:NFCC#8 (which is a policy, not just a guideline). Each non-free image which is truly useful in the article needs to be mentioned in the text (not just the image's caption) along with some allegation of how the image is important to the topic of Western pointing, and that statement (e.g. "Dali's Crucifiction helped usher in the surrealist movement") needs to be sourced so that it's not original research. – Quadell (talk) (random) 23:58, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Your claim that " Each non-free image which is truly useful in the article needs to be mentioned in the text (not just the image's caption)" is new to me. I understand that just giving a title and artist name in a caption does not amount to discussion, but see no reason why a longer caption commenting on the work should not do so. Please clarify what you are saying, and produce policy references if you are indeed saying this. Johnbod (talk) 12:35, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
As you probably realize these images are important to these articles especially 20th century visual art articles. I will very carefully go over the text and reference and specify and coordinate the text to those images over the next few days. Modernist (talk) 00:16, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Great, thanks! – Quadell (talk) (random) 00:21, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
No problem, although it's gonna take me a few days. Modernist (talk) 00:41, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Logic and common sense tells us that these images illustrate style, tendency etc. For instance the Robert Mangold painting is used as an example of a style - Minimal art whose characteristics are discussed and placed in historical context. Is it that particular Mangold that is specifically discussed no - as in WP:UCS we are using examples of style. Franz Kline and Willem de Kooning demonstrate particular tendencies in Abstract Expressionism, etc. I will add text and reference only where logic and possibility make it viable. Modernist (talk) 02:48, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

There are a number of experienced and conscientious arts editors in Wikipedia:WikiProject Visual arts, willing to attend to these issues. It would be helpful, before images are deleted, to raise problems first of all on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts, so the particular case(s) can gain attention and evaluation. The Foundation has specifically mentioned contemporary art as a genre where non-free images will often have to be retained. Regarding WP:NFCC#8:

Significance. Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding.

Visual art is the parmount place where this applies. The understanding is in the seeing, and no amount of words can substitute for that. Template:Non-free 2D art states that the use of non-free images for critical commentary on

  • the work in question,
  • the artistic genre or technique of the work of art or
  • the school to which the artist belongs

are all legitimate. The description of changing modes and ideas in art is critical commentary, whose meaning can only be properly comprehended by literally seeing it. Tyrenius (talk) 03:50, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question for you

at Talk:Western painting please reply there: Your claim that " Each non-free image which is truly useful in the article needs to be mentioned in the text (not just the image's caption)" is new to me. I understand that just giving a title and artist name in a caption does not amount to discussion, but see no reason why a longer caption commenting on the work should not do so. Please clarify what you are saying, and produce policy references if you are indeed saying this. Johnbod (talk) 12:35, 20 December 2007 (UTC) Thanks Johnbod (talk) 12:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] FUR and PD

Removed the tag, I've checked all the images and they seem ok to me. Modernist (talk) 04:22, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ADD

can we add Edvard Munch, The scream —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.232.127.183 (talk) 05:51, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Holy crap

I just realized something: where's all the Aztec, Maya, Incan, Mixtec, Toltec, Huari, and other pre-Columbian American painted artwork? I've seen the murals for myself, these cultures had a strong tradition in painting. Am I really the first one to point this out?--Pericles of AthensTalk 07:08, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Americas

Good thought, maybe the section should be called The Americas and encompass Native Americans - in Canada, the USA and in Mexico, Central America, and South America. I started the section - it's called Painting in the Americas - Modernist (talk) 14:23, 3 March 2008 (UTC)