Talk:History of monarchy in Canada

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This article is within the scope of WikiProject Commonwealth realms, an attempt to better organise and expand information in articles related to the Commonwealth realms. For more information, visit the project page or check the talk page for on going discussions.

What's the intent here? There's already Monarchy in Canada, which has much of the same text. Did that get too big, or what? Thanks. --John Nagle 03:34, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Neutrality

The article seems quite one sided, particularly the last section. It is also absolutely devoid of sources. Homey 03:39, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

The majority of text from the History section of Monarchy in Canada has been moved here. If any part seems "one sided", add whatever factual and relevant information you feel is missing. --gbambino 04:01, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay, so it's been a week since the neutrality of this article was disputed. Seems to be a lack of real dispute, though. Is anything actually going on with this? --gbambino 18:21, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What does this line mean?

The Canadian Crown is one of an approximate half-dozen that have survived through uninterrupted inheritance from before the country itself was founded.

It seems to imply that the "Canadian Crown" existed before the country itself was founded, along with about 6 others that also still exist. I can make no sense of this at all. TharkunColl (talk) 16:59, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I too am confused. The Canadian crown's earliest possible date was 1867 - Before that, Canada was a British colony. GoodDay (talk) 17:11, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
The comment, I think, petains to the length of time that Canada has continuously been a monarchy. Should it perhaps be modified to read: The Canadian Crown's continunal lineage from the British and French Crowns makes it one of an approximate half-dozen that have survived through uninterrupted inhertiance from before the country itself was founded. --G2bambino (talk) 17:35, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Much better; that's more discriptive & accurate line. GoodDay (talk) 17:46, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
The Canadian Crown has no lineage from the French Crown. Also, what are the other 5 or 6 crowns that the sentence refers to? TharkunColl (talk) 18:05, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
February 10, 1763. --G2bambino (talk) 18:09, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
France ceded control of Canada to Britain. There is no lineage from the French Crown to the British - indeed, it was an abrupt break. And what of those other 5 or 6, what are they? TharkunColl (talk) 18:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Recommend modify the sentence further, leave out the French crown. GoodDay (talk) 18:28, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
That's not what the historian stated in his article. --G2bambino (talk) 20:50, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Okay. What about the "half-dozen" other monarchies mentioned - what are they? TharkunColl (talk) 18:35, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
I haven't a clue. GoodDay (talk) 18:42, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Nor have I. TharkunColl (talk) 19:01, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Unless someone can shed some light on what the other half-dozen monarchies are, and why they're even mentioned at all, the line is completely senseless and I'll get rid of it. TharkunColl (talk) 22:09, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you read the article and find out? Oh, right... "facts" and "sources" don't matter to you. --G2bambino (talk) 22:21, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
There no link to the article. Can you summarise it? TharkunColl (talk) 22:23, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
No, it's a print article. Summary: history of the Canadian Crown. --G2bambino (talk) 22:25, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
What are the half-dozen other monarchies? Either we say what they are, or scrub the line. What's the point otherwise? TharkunColl (talk) 22:29, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Say what they are in the article? Whatever for? I also don't think Monet states exactly what the other monarchies are, though I'd have to check the article, which is presently at my home. --G2bambino (talk) 22:30, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
What possible use is that line? What does it add to the article? And the overwhelming majority of readers couldn't even check it up. Why have it at all? TharkunColl (talk) 22:33, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
The majority of readers can't check up on the sources used in Molecular biology; so what?
The statement is a historian's fact about the history of the Canadian Crown; how is that not relevant to an article on the history of the Canadian Crown? --G2bambino (talk) 22:36, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't even describe what the historian said, which it especially ought to if the source is offline. It is useless. It gives no information. TharkunColl (talk) 22:39, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Actually, it used to say almost verbatim what the historian said. Why do you make claims about stuff you know nothing about? --G2bambino (talk) 22:40, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Then what's all this guff about half a dozen monarchies that date from before the foundation of their country? If even the historian didn't say what he was talking about, then we should just get rid of it as worse than useless. TharkunColl (talk) 22:43, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Only in your opinion. --G2bambino (talk) 22:47, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes. And I'll do so, as well, unless someone else can come up with a good reason not to. That line adds no information to the article, and merely serves to create confusion - i.e. it is worse than useless. TharkunColl (talk) 22:50, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
You'd better seek out that other person, then. You're the one contesting this, the onus is on you to prove why the change should be made. Your personal opinion just doesn't cut it. --G2bambino (talk) 22:52, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
IMHO, if there's no identification for those 'six other monarchies', then that makes their existance questionable (and thus the source unreliable). Suggest removing the 'other six' info. GoodDay (talk) 23:08, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, GoodDay, we go by WP:V in terms of reliability. There is no "other six" anyway. Monet says "approximate half dozen." --G2bambino (talk) 23:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

G2, why have you changed the line to say that the crown has a lineage to the French crown, when it doesn't? TharkunColl (talk) 23:11, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

But it makes no sense, because the "Canadian Crown" was created at precisely the same time as Canada. If an article is demonstrably wrong, then why cite it? Why is some historian's word better, for example, than the Secretary General of the Commonwealth on another issue? TharkunColl (talk) 23:17, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
You don't know that it's wrong. --G2bambino (talk) 23:19, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
It is wrong, because what it is saying in effect, is that the Canadian Crown dates to a time before the Canadian Crown was invented. But why is a historian's word better than the Secretary General of the Commonwealth? TharkunColl (talk) 23:23, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Your paranoia, it seems, knows no bounds; now even nice old university professors are in on the great conspiracy to bring down the United Kingdom. You've uncovered an evil plot by us Canucks, Thark! You've found us out! E gads! --G2bambino (talk) 23:29, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
I think that statement says more about your own state of mind, than mine. I merely asked how come his words are citable, but not those of the Secretary General of the Commonwealth? TharkunColl (talk) 23:32, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
They're citable because they come from a source. Your Secretary General comment is citable, in the right context. I've explained this to you at your talk page; you obviously don't care enough to listen, though. --G2bambino (talk) 23:34, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
I think those 'six others' might be the First Nations chiefs. GoodDay (talk) 23:27, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
I think they're the crowns of those countries that have never been a republic; i.e. Japan, Thailand, Norway, Liechtenstein, etc. But who cares what anyone thinks they are, it isn't really the point. --G2bambino (talk) 23:33, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
And what is the point he's trying to make? It makes no sense. TharkunColl (talk) 23:37, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
It makes perfect sense: Canada is one of very few countries that has continuously been a monarchy since before the formation of its modern incarnation. How hard is it for you to understand things? --G2bambino (talk) 23:42, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
It should be removed, but I'm not removing it. GoodDay (talk) 23:45, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
You have to argue why it should be removed. If I've learned anything from all the content disputes I've been through, many of them with you, it's just that. --G2bambino (talk) 23:48, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Beause the source for it, is unreliable. It doesn't say what those six are. My reason -unreliable source-. GoodDay (talk) 23:51, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Okay, well, your opinion is noted but, fortunately or unfortunately, your personal feelings don't decide what a reliable source is and isn't. --G2bambino (talk) 23:53, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
You appear to be outvoted, G2. Will you be launching another edit war if I remove it? TharkunColl (talk) 23:56, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
No vote has taken place, nor has any consensus been reached. If you wish to pursue dispute resolution, go ahead and do so, but it is your responsibility as the person who is questioning content. --G2bambino (talk) 23:57, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Since I've no intentions of 'removing' material. You guys will have to figure things out - I'm just getting in the way. GoodDay (talk) 00:01, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Monarchy in society of the First Nations

'The history of monarchy in Canada stretches from the pre-colonial times of Canada to the present day'.

'Monarchy has been a concept in Canada since before the first encounters between French and British colonizers and indigenous North Americans.'

May I suggest a problem with these statements? I believe that if this article treats of monarchy in Canada it should restrict itself to the Western concept of monarchy. As the article does say, it was Europeans who called the leaders of some of the First Nations monarchs. But they actually did not have the concept of a single person ruling alone and passing power by hereditary succession. The two statements ought to be ommitted.--Gazzster (talk) 22:03, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Please do not simply delete material, especially that which is cited. If you have a problem with the content, edit it or discuss how to improve it here first.
I'll have to take a more detailed look at the segments in question later (probably tomorrow), but for the time being can say that there were indeed hereditary chiefdoms amonst First Nations. --G2bambino (talk) 02:17, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Why shouldn't I delete material? If I can justify it, why shouldn't I, in the interests of a good article? You are equally free to restore them. But if you're inviting a discussion about the material on this page, I'd be happy to participate.--Gazzster (talk) 02:48, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
You haven't "justified" it to anyone but yourself, apparently. Some of that material was definitely cited, yet you deleted it. Why? Seemingly because it said what you believed to be wrong.
I've thought for some time that the pre-colonial segment of this article needed expansion, not reduction. So, working to improve the content there would be more appreciated than it's unilateral removal. --G2bambino (talk) 15:43, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I did in fact examine the cited material. And it did not support the idea that pre-colonial civilisations were monarchies. I am not so crass as to delete valid material because I 'believed it wrong'. I'd thank you to assume good faith. Your latest edits, which I'm still not entirely happy with (but never mind) downplay the idea that there is a continuity between Native American civilisations and Western European civilisation. That is what I was objecting you. If you want to write an article about pre-colonial Canada, by all means do so. It would be interesting. But I suspect it has already been done. Cheers.--Gazzster (talk) 21:25, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

In the article Monarchy, tribal chiefs are mentioned. Don't the chiefs fit the monarchy description? IMHO, the chiefs belong in this article. GoodDay (talk) 22:26, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't know a lot about the government of Native American nations. I do know that the concept of Western European monarchy does not sit well with indigenous peoples. My objection is to establishing a continuity between pre-colonial, Native American governance and colonial Western institutions. It is quite frankly bizarre. But as I say, the article has been toned down in that regard.--Gazzster (talk) 22:46, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Remember, monarchy isn't limited to Western Europe. As for continuation of 'native rooted monarchy' into 'european rooted monarchy'? one can always add section headings to avoid that impression of continuation. GoodDay (talk) 22:57, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

But they are two very different concepts. And if you are going to have two sections within an article called 'history of monarchy in Canada', we cannot avoid the suggestion of continuity, can we? When G2 writes about monarchy in this and the curious plethora of other Canadian monarchy related topics, he is talking about an institution whereby a single crowned head, answerable only to God and possessing within him/herself the entirety of authority over a dominion, who passes authority down by primogeniture, governs a nation (sorry about the long sebntence!). 'Monarch' is actually a broader concept than that. But we can tell by contedxt that that is the concept the article is talking about. The First Nations do not have this concept. In fact most aboriginal civilisations have more communual ideas of governance.--Gazzster (talk) 23:12, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid I'll have to let you & G2 figure these things out. This topic is getting over my head. GoodDay (talk) 23:34, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

This all seems a rather convoluted way to find out what someone's objections are. None-the-less, I see now that the two links used as cites for the opening sentences of the first section no longer exist; this is a surprise to me. I know there's a process by which broken links can be retrieved, but don't personally know how to do this. If that could be done, it would probably go a long way to settling the current text. In the meantime, I hope people will trust that I did faithfully take what those sources said as a base for the present wording.
Also, Gazzster, I think you've completely misread the title of this article, and thus are confused about the content. The page is called History of monarchy in Canada, not History of the monarchy of Canada; a subtle but important difference. In pre-colonial Canada there were chiefdoms that operated on a hereditary system of governance, which is what we define, in English, as a monarchy. Therefore, there's no reason not to include the First Nations in this article. If the page appears to state something about some continuity between the First Nations monarchies and the present day Crown, it shouldn't. Feel free to fix whatever is wrong, though I've already demonstrated that deletion isn't an absolute necessity. --G2bambino (talk) 23:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your coutesy. I'm certainly not suggesting bad faith on your part. As you say, we agree about the continuity problem. I do understand the difference between titles. But my objection was to the concept of monarchy which seems to be understood here in theWestern sense. By the way, have you suggesting inserting as a section of Monarchy of Canada? Only a suggestion.--Gazzster (talk) 23:56, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Prince William 1.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 15:44, 8 March 2008 (UTC)