Talk:History of merit badges (Boy Scouts of America)

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History of merit badges (Boy Scouts of America) is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.

This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on February 22, 2006.

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December 6, 2005

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January 18, 2006

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[edit] Copyright of images on this page

The creator of this article took the photos of the merit badge images used in this article. The merit badges are in his personal collection. The motif/design of the badges is what is copyrighted by BSA, which the creator of this article secured permission for on 13 Dec 2005. Written confirmation of this is in the works to be submitted to Wikipedia. Rlevse 18:25, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Consensus on one of the other scouting pages was to use the logo tag on these images, and note that it is a copyright or trademark of the BSA. --Gadget850 17:08, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

The logo image tag is: {{logo}}. See Wikipedia: logos for more info. --Gadget850 18:22, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Someone needs to apply that consistently then. Any takers? :) --JohnDBuell 18:45, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

How about a compromise - let the first image stay with fairusein, since Rlevse arranged it himself and took the photo (or, actually it looks like five images combined on a computer, but that's still Rlevse's original arrangement). The individual badges change to the logo template? --JohnDBuell 19:08, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I scanned all the MBs in this article on my scanner (did not use a camera) for use herein. For the group shot, I took the five images you see and combined them using PowerPoint, grouped them, then pasted them into Paint and saved as a jpg. Good eye, John! I'll start on your proposal now. Rlevse 19:40, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Done with changing to logo tag. I left the group shot alone. Rlevse 19:55, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Article name

Okay, why Merit Badge Types instead of Design History? Types, to anyone who knows something about the BSA's program, usually means a category (like had been done in the 1960s) or is used to designate the difference in "Mandatory for Eagle Scout" vs. "Non-Mandatory for Eagle Scout." --JohnDBuell 18:32, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I thought MB Types would be less confusing to non-BSA folks because if we use "design history" I have no doubt that someone will claim it should refer to the artwork/motif of the MB. Maybe we should just leave the title alone for now until we are ready to resubmit it to FAC. Thoughts? Rlevse 18:41, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Regarding naming: good point. That would only leave potential options as something like Generations of BSA merit badges or Designs of BSA merit badge generations or something else like that. I think you're right, leave it where it is, maybe get some more feedback (is there a WikiProject for Scouting yet?), re-work, and re-submit. --JohnDBuell 18:42, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I think a WikiProject on Scouting is a great idea. There does not appear to be one in the list. Thoughts? Rlevse 19:42, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] References

If possible, can you include the page numbers with the references to the Merit Badge Field Guide book? --JohnDBuell 18:56, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Done. Rlevse 22:45, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Writing style

I'd like to follow up on my disparaging comments on the featured-article proposal. I've rewritten the Type F section; I hope it looks better now. --Smack (talk) 19:27, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for being willing to help. It would be nice to have a consistent style that all can agree on in the Type A-J sections. So far I like what you're doing. I'm eager to see what it looks like when you finish as I see you're right in the middle of it at the moment. Rlevse 19:35, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I edited that section just to demonstrate what I meant. (Sorry if I didn't make that clear.) I'm trying to get through a huge backlog on my watchlist and to-do list, where the articles need help more urgently than this one. I may come back here later, but if you want to pick up in the meantime where I left off, that would be great. --Smack (talk) 18:13, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

It's just so hard to make those paragraphs sound good. I can't find a way to make them anything other than disjointed collections of facts. It almost seems that they would read better if they were broken up into several columns. Take a look at Merit badge types (BSA)/temp. --Smack (talk) 19:22, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Hmm. This may be a great idea (table redesign). I may do this when I get more time (there'd be 10 to redesign and reedit. THx! Rlevse 21:30, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Capitalization

Scout is always capitalized, even in ranks, when it refers to Scouting in English. Chris 16:17, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

You're right, and the usage wasn't consistent through the article. I've made them all with an uppercase "S", except the ones that are links to articles or websites. Thanks for catching it. Rlevse 16:35, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] internal source help

/sigh I'm still unsure how to do interal source citing ... I just added a line to the "Badge History" section: "Currently, the BSA "field testing" Hunting merit badge but it has not yet been released on a national basis. which I got from [1]. This source is already cited internally elsewhere in the article. If you can fix this for me that would be great. --Naha|^(talk) 19:51, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

It's only in the ref (now) and external links. I made the external link go specifically to the MB section, so I feel this is fixed. Rlevse 21:38, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Merit badge collecting

I saw the comment on the FAC page about needing to edit or remove the collecting section. I have to agree that unless it mainly contains info on badge collection as a hobby (as opposed to other BSA memoribilia) that it should be removed. Over the last hour I've been looking for info via Google searches about badge collecting as a *hobby* and am not really turning up anything good. All the collection information I can find is in regards to the scouts *earning* the badges and the criteria needed to earn them. I'll look some more I guess.--Naha|^(talk) 21:32, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Citation needed?

Does this claim really need a citation? "Spoof badges should never be worn on a Scouting uniform" ? I mean ...it makes complete sense. What offical group of any kind that pridees itself in the manner in which it awards its members would allow that? I think citing sources is wonderful, but over the last week or so it seems like all of a sudden people think every sentence in every article needs a citation. Seems a bit out of control. --Naha|^(talk) 21:59, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

It makes complete sense to me too, but I added two refs anyway.Rlevse 22:15, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Cool, better to overcite than leave people wondering I guess ...I'm just on a citation-police tare at the moment lol. --Naha|^(talk) 22:21, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] LOL

Normally this criteria is something like, cooking, or weaving, but other useless feminine activities are also uncluded.

The above has been reported as vandalism. Rlevse 03:07, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

ALL VANDALISM ON THIS TALK PAGE AND THE ARTICLE PAGE HAS BEEN AND WILL BE REPORTED. Rlevse 03:17, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Start Year of Scouting

This page says Scouting started in the UK in 1908. It didn't - it was 1907. 2007 (ie next year) is our 100th anivesary and there is all sorts of things planned. See www.scouts.org.uk for further proof. Can someone change this (don't want to do it myself as it's a featured page and there's lots of warnings about vandals here).

Thanks for catching that. Can't believe I missed that. Fixing it would not be vandalism, but helping. Rlevse 10:56, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Temp page

If someone who is an editor of this page can look over Merit badge types (BSA)/temp and see if there is anything to merge. The temp page has remained unedited for 2 months now. It should be deleted if there is nothing to save. Once anything is merged, place a {{db|temporary page}} tag on the page and an admin should speedy delete it. Pepsidrinka 04:56, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I forgot all about this. It can be deleted. Rlevse 16:53, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spoof Merit Badges/Whitewater Kayaking

Under the section titled Spoof Merit Badges, it is mentioned that whitewater kayaking would possibly be approved by the BSA, but currently isn't. There is, in fact, a Whitewater merit badge. Perhaps this part of the article should be changed to reflect that reality. Mathboy965 17:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Good catch. I just removed it to avoid confusion. Feel free to join the Scouting Wikiproject. Rlevse 18:10, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page move

I've moved the page from History of merit badges (Boy Scouts of America) because the article History of merit badges doesn't exist (meaning that the paranthetical title is unnecessary) but the context of Boy Scouts is still needed. If you disagree, feel free to move it back. Axem Titanium 22:50, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Your new title is incorrect because the badges are specifically BSA badges and Boy Scout does not equal BSA, the title was agreed upon during a FAC, and you moved it without any discussion. So I moved it all back.Rlevse 23:10, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed- this article is BSA specific. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:12, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:DogCare E back.jpg

Image:DogCare E back.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 05:20, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:DogCare E front.jpg

Image:DogCare E front.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

BetacommandBot (talk) 05:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:ForageCrops G back.jpg

Image:ForageCrops G back.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

BetacommandBot (talk) 06:39, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:ForageCrops G front.jpg

Image:ForageCrops G front.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

BetacommandBot (talk) 06:40, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Camping H (Green) 1973-1977

The Wiki article cites this BSA Camping H (Green) 1973-1977as being a somewhat rare required merit badge due to the green border for this issue during this limited period of time. I do not have a scanner to present this merit badge in the same manner as most other merit badge images for this article (nor do I care to rip this merit badge off of the slash in order to scan it). I hope this image may be utilized to compliment the text in either the G (where mentioned in text) or the H section.Bee Cliff River Slob (talk) 05:13, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Image:Camping H Green1973.jpg

Thanks for your interest, but...It's somewhat rare, but it's not an error so that section is not applicable. It's not a G, so it can't go there either. It's on a sash, so we can't get a back photo. It's also just not that important. The scope is highlights of the "type" history of MBs, not to cover every variation. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:50, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Rlevse, let me first thank you for creating this article and most of the scanned images as the original author, along with your many progressing contributions and edits to History of merit badges (Boy Scouts of America) since Dcember, 2005.

However, I am thinking that you seem to be confused as the section in question is actually titled Errors vs variations with the subsection Specimen variations and not simply "Errors", and I do not recall presenting this Camping H 1973-1977 merit badge image as a Type G (perhaps you meant to say that you are thinking that this image did not belong within the Type G table), however, perhaps you or another previous editor (or editors) thought that this particular Camping merit badge is of significant enough interest to "highlight" as separate examples within the both the Type G text and Specimen variations sections:

In 1969, the BSA started issuing silver-bordered badges for those badges that were on the mandatory list for Eagle rank. Silver–bordered badges appear in Type G, H, and J. Consequently, the border color of a badge will change when it goes on and off the mandatory list. A good example is "Camping" Type H, which had a green border from 1973–1977, yet silver border before and after that; so this particular green border "Camping" variety is fairly rare.

thumb|right|100px|Rlevs:Collections, Type H, back thumb|right|100px|Rlevs:Manufacturing error on the First Aid to Animals merit badge, Type H, 1972, backFurthermore, as the article already has one sufficient reverse example of the Type H merit badge within the article, if would be redundant to feature the reverse image of the Camping H 1973-1977, such as a similar manner that it is redundant to feature the your First Aid To Animals H Silver Error back image file within the article.

Specimen variations Variations do not appreciably alter the badge's appearance or design. Two types of variations include positional changes and stitching changes. These are often caused by manufacturing variations and not classified separately. However, some variations have attained notoriety, such as the waffle weave variation found among Type C badges and the large people vs. slender people variations among Family Life badges. Such variations were very common up until the 1940s and still occur, though not as often. Collectors find these variations interesting and collect such badges.

Examples of positional shifts among the objects comprising the motif of a merit badge include changes in the precise positioning of the tent and the mountains among Camping Type H merit badges. Another example is the shift among the Scout, the mountains, and the clouds in Hiking Type H merit badges.

The upshot is that this new image file of the good example Camping H 1973-1977 merit badge serves to both compliment and further enhance the understanding of Wiki users to the existing text of other authors --- including your own previous entries within the article that you chose not to edit out the related text of previous authors along with the Camping Type H 1973-1977 image file. I am thinking that perhaps we could both agree that this Camping H 1973-1977 is a fairly rare variation that supports the article text, and that a table similar to the ones constructed to display the individual merit badge types could be utilizied to better display examples of Error vs variations merit badges.
Bee Cliff River Slob (talk) 17:36, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

variations are changes in design such as location of mb components, stiching changes etc. There is nothing unique about the 1970s green border Camping MB. I have more than one copy myself, and they're not on a sash. There are far rarer MBs too. The Type C stitching variations are actually far rarer, as are several others. Now let's stop reverting each other and work this out. I have a specimen of most MBs. What exactly do you want, to have the green camping mb in the article or show a variation of some type? There are better examples than the green 1970s Camping MB. — Rlevse • Talk • 17:49, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Rlevse, for your quick response (although I am thinking that you unnecessarily deleted the image and caption of the Camping Type F merit badge) and for solicting my suggestions as I believe that we can both agree that an individual cannot exercise ownership over any particular Wikipedia article --- and generally speaking, I am thinking that this small portion of the overall article should displayed as in the following example:

[edit] Specimen variations

Specimen variation of Camping merit badge with green edge, Type H, 1973-1977.

Variations do not appreciably alter the badge's appearance or design. Two types of variations include positional changes and stitching changes. These are often caused by manufacturing variations and not classified separately. However, some variations have attained notoriety, such as the waffle weave variation found among Type C badges and the large people vs. slender people variations among Family Life badges. Such variations were very common up until the 1940s and still occur, though not as often. Collectors find these variations interesting and collect such badges.

Examples of positional shifts among the objects comprising the motif of a merit badge include changes in the precise positioning of the tent and the mountains among Camping Type H merit badges. Another example is the shift among the Scout, the mountains, and the clouds in Hiking Type H merit badges.

Stitch patterns are not always consistent. There are three known stitching variations among the Type C Personal Health merit badges: "vertical heart", "horizontal heart", and "split heart"; the variation creates the appearance of a split down the middle of the heart. A similar error appears in both Type H and Type J Citizenship in the Nation badges, where colors vary in order from red, white, and blue to blue, white, and red; the reasons for this are unknown. Large and small bell varieties also exist. Emergency Preparedness was made with a red cross from 1972 until 1979, when it was replaced with a green cross in 1980. This change was intentionally made. However, the color of the green is not consistent; even today, it varies between dark green, medium green, light green, and yellow green.

[edit] Manufacturing errors

thumb|right|100px|Manufacturing error on the First Aid to Animals merit badge, Type H, 1972, frontGenuine manufacturing errors occur from time to time. Some Atomic Energy Type G badges were made without a nucleus. The only time a merit badge was made without a silver, green, or blue (aviation blues only) border was in 1987 when Whitewater Type H badges were made with a black border. Dairying appears in Type H with the cheese in both orange and burgundy. It is supposed to be orange.

There have been at least three Type H badges made with little or no plastic; called plasticizing or Type G errors: American Cultures, Colonial Philadelphia, and Journalism. The Colonial Philadelphia patch was only available from 1975 until 1976 to Scouts in the Philadelphia region and could only be used for Eagle Palms.

First Aid to Animals (FATA) Type H was made in error with a silver border in 1972. This is one of the most famous errors. It has a slight blue tint in the plastic back (see photos). It is believed that only about 100 of these were made and that only about 50 have survived to this day. Counterfeit versions of this badge error also exist.^[1]^[2] "Beekeeping" Type G is also known in silver border error. Neither one has ever been a required merit badge.
[...]

I am thinking that is would better serve this article to leave my uploaded file of the Camping Type F (1973-1977) merit badge with the "Variation" caption as shown in the aforementioned example, move the front image of the Animal First Aid Silver Error image file to the Manufacturing errors section, and simply altogether eliminate the redundant reverse image of the Animal First Aid Silver Error image file (the Type H section already provides front and reverse image display of the Type H Collections merit badge) and in addition, the reverse image of the Animals First Aid merit badge is both cropped too tight and features a shadow across the top of the image from where the merit badge was scanned to close against an edge of the flatbed scanner.

Perhaps you should also choose your words more carefully...actually, a BSA merit badge variation --- according to the uncited definition in your article History of merit badges (Boy Scouts of America) --- "is a minor change, whether intentional or not" and that further, that the BSA Camping Type F 1973-1977merit badge is according to [[History of merit badges (Boy Scouts of America)#Type G|both a "good example" of BSA merit badge variation and "fairly rare". Futhermore states that:

Consequently, the border color of a badge will change when it goes on and off the mandatory list. A good example is "Camping" Type H, which had a green border from 1973–1977, yet silver border before and after that; so this particular green border "Camping" variety is fairly rare.

If we are to understand you correctly (in context of the article), then how is "...this particular green border "Camping" Type H 'variety is now somehow not a variation of the BSA Camping silver–bordered badges appearing in Type G, H, and J? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet...variation, variety.

I only uploaded the Camping H Green1973.jpg image file as the article references this specific and "fairly rare" Camping Type H (1973-1977) merit badge with the green border and that the Camping Type H merit badge being referenced in a different passage "Specimen variation" without providing an image file to generally show the Camping merit badge, and more specifically illustrate the Camping Type H 1973-1977) specimen variation.

As far as the perception of quality, I am sure there is a divided camp on the diffrence of digital photos of merit badges on a sash versus scanned images of merit badges captured on a flatbed scanner; I never was a collector of BSA merit badges, rather I earned a few along the way amd I am thinking that many other Scouts and former Scouts would not find any problem with displaying an image file within the Wiki article of a single merit badge sewn onto a sash.

I am also viewing this article in Netscape and I am viewing most of these merit badge images as having a brighter white background than actually displayed on the Wikipedia page itself. As the Camping Type H would not not be featured within an existing table format (but rather within the Species variation section, I find nothing wrong with this image file... you may however, as a closing suggestion, want to find a better quality front view of the Animal First Aid merit badge in your collection that has the merit badge logo properly centered and then re-scan it that Animal First Aid merit badge centered within the image file itself.
Bee Cliff River Slob (talk) 19:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Section break

I'm not claiming ownership and I resent the insinuation. I'm trying to keep this featured article at the highest quality.---a lot of work went into getting it there. But let's move on. Your merit badge is not a "Camping Type F (1973-1977)" it's a "Camping Type H (1973-1977)". While it is somewhat rare, it is not a variation and does not illustrate the point of the paragraph you're trying to attach it to---this is the basic problem with it being there. It is a standard variety green Camping type H, the "standard issue" for Camping MB of its day--there's nothing exceptionally unique about it. A variation would be if it had a red tent instead of a green tent, ie, as the article states, a deviation from the "standard issue". The FATA reverse is a blue-back, and hence is not redundant as the other image is a clear back. The reverse image does have a shadow but I can fix that, as I can fix the slight tilt in the scan, but since we're criticizing images, notice yours has almost the exact same degree of tilt. Yours also has many sewing threads that crunch the badge. As for the FATA being a little off center, there are only about 50 in the world, so they're not many of them to choose from. The Green Camping H had tens of thousands manufactured and I myself have better specimens. The overall quality of that specimen is not up to that of the others in the article. As for a centered FATA, I'll contact another collector about a more-centered silver border FATA.

I honestly feel a better sample for the variation section would be a waffle weave Type C. Or, a large vs slender people Family Life pair. Both of these possibilities are also mentioned in the article. How about one of them?

Another suggestion, you may want to consider adding that MB and/or your sash to Advancement_and_recognition_in_the_Boy_Scouts_of_America#Boy_Scouting, Merit badge (Boy Scouts of America). — Rlevse • Talk • 21:26, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Camping H Green1973.jpg

Image:Camping H Green1973.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

BetacommandBot (talk) 23:33, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Done at the image description page and includes a fair use rationale

Bee Cliff River Slob (talk) 18:04, 8 March 2008 (UTC)