Talk:History of male circumcision

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This article is largely a repository for material removed from the main Circumcision article (where its purpose was argumentative) to help bring that article closer to NPOV. Tverbeek 13:00, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

  • Indeed. As such the content of this dumping ground cannot be considered anything other than that: "The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed." - Robert Brookes 06:28, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] Was Ancient Circumcision really Circumcision?

I've read that based on interpretation of some Biblical verses, some historians think that ancient Egpytians only performed a dorsal slit of the foreskin rather than removing it entirely as Hebrews would start to do sometime later. Can this really be considered a circumcision though? Shouldn't they be able to tell for sure what the exact procedure was from looking at those supposedly cirumcised mummies? Anybody know? KingOfAfrica 01:27, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Should be merged

This article needs to go back into Circumcision, there is no reason to put this section in its own article, except to hide it. Rho bite 23:02, Aug 29, 2004 (TC)

  • Nonsense. There can be a link on the circumcision article for those who are interested. It needs to be remembered that the junk in this article needs to be seriously cleaned up. - Robert Brooke's 21:20, 31 Aug 2004 (TC)
    • Please point out the "junk" in this article, or merge it back with circumcision. Rho bite 22:26, Aug 31, 2004 (TC)

The study of the history of a subject is a legitimate separate study to the subject itself as illustrated throughout Wikipedia.

The use of the term 'junk' is wilfully offensive which merely reinforces prejudice. By failing for over 2 years to point out 'the junk', Robert seems to be admitting that he cannot and by default admitting that the content is legitimate. If so, the courtesy would be to remove the claim.Just2Jack 04:25, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Also Disputed

Abu Hurairah is a despitued source, he has been known to have accompanined Muhammad for only three years and yet has produced a large number of Hadith's, in the neighberhood of 5,000, far more than any other companion of the prophet of Islam. His account is usually anti-women and dogs, all kidding aside, even his name in Arabic: ابو هريره means father of a kitten and it is argued that he was therefore partial against dogs. He is also mentioned as a thief and an embezzler. As a quotable source he is popular, in my opinion due to the large number of hadiths he claims to have witnessed, yet again, he only knew the prophet for 3 yrs. Again, he is popular to quote yet discredited by some, or many for that matter, myself included. --The Brain 09:30, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed

This article is largely a repository for material removed from the main Circumcision article (where its purpose was argumentative) to help bring that article closer to NPOV. Tverbeek 13:00, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

  • Indeed. As such the content of this dumping ground cannot be considered anything other than that: "The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed." - Robert Brookes 06:28, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Should be merged

This article needs to go back into Circumcision, there is no reason to put this section in its own article, except to hide it. Rhobite 23:02, Aug 29, 2004 (UTC)

  • Nonsense. There can be a link on the circumcision article for those who are interested. It needs to be remembered that the junk in this article needs to be seriously cleaned up. - Robert Brookes 21:20, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)
    • Please point out the "junk" in this article, or merge it back with circumcision. Rhobite 22:26, Aug 31, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed

The sources of this article is from anti-circumcision web sites. It is POV. It is selective in what it includes. It is not the edits to it which need to be justified but the inclusion of such POV junk in the first place. - Robert Brookes 00:39, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Robert, please read this. In particular, note
The neutral point of view policy is easily misunderstood. The policy doesn't assume that it's possible to write an article from just a single unbiased, "objective" point of view. The policy says that we should fairly represent all sides of a dispute, and not make an article state, imply, or insinuate that any one side is correct.
—Ashley Y 08:37, 2005 Jan 16 (UTC)

This article is now in merged form and it is much more comprehensive. It should be very NPOV because of the many viewpoints expressed. Robert Blair 12:00, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)


This article has a strong anti-circumcision bias. See the references. It should be flagged as such. 24.84.40.22 18:05, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No merge

This article is interesting, but long, and in many ways unrelated to the main article. Don't merge it back. --L33tminion | (talk) 02:03, Jan 25, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hopelessly incomplete

This article contains no discussion at all of the anthropology of circumcision, or its practice among many African, Australian, and Papuan groups. A history of circumcision that starts with ancient Egypt is scarcely adequate; we can be fairly confident that Australian Aborigines did not get the idea there! - Mustafaa 05:47, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

We can be fairly confident or you? What are your objective grounds for asserting that circumcision did not migrate?

The article is incomplete. For instance it:

1. Fails to mention two of the most important figures in the history of circumcision: Abraham and Mohamed.

2. Dismisses a number of existing theories about the origins of circumcision. The fact that those theories exist makes them legitimate subjects of study in their own right. In the same way that social science has been studying beliefs and attitudes for decades.

3. Does not examine the period prior to ancient Egypt. Some may argue that the history of circumcision in pre-history is lost in the mists of time. The origins or species and the universe substantially predate circumcising. That did not deter science from seeking and discovering the origins of both.

All history is always biased. To the victor goes the spoils of war. One spoil is the power to write and re-write history in a way that is more often than not flattering to the victor. Today that may be seen in the attempts of the powerful to suppress alternative accounts and gain a record that is flattering to them.

Circumcision is an emotive subject. It has been throughout history.

Just2Jack 04:10, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Propaganda link?

On the Circumstitions website there is a map of the United States which shows those states that do and don't fund infant circumcisions under Medicaid. I provided a link to this map because it gives a clear picture of which states do and don't fund infant circumcisions under Medicaid. Jake Waskett removed the link as a 'propaganda link'.

While I can understand that Jake might take that view of the web page, I see things differently. The website, of course, is against circumcision, but the map is very clear and informative, getting the information across in a particularly striking and attractive way. I think that the readers of Wikipedia are quite grown up enough to take what they want from this website, and to discard the rest. They don't need a nanny edit.

Perhaps the following wording will suffice to warn the poor unsuspecting reader that they might be exposed to blush propaganda!

See the map on this anti-circumcision website [1]. Michael Glass 13:42, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

As an alternative, why not just give a link to the map itself? I don't object to the map, just the crackpot propagandist conspiracy theories. - Jakew 14:43, 11 July 2005 (UTC)


Sounds OK to me! Michael Glass 07:59, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Not to me, because the page the map is on [2] gives the dates on which each state abolished funding and other documented information. "Crackpot propagandist conspiracy theories"? Please elaborate.--Hugh7 02:42, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Intact" vs. "Uncircumcised"

Incorrect use of Language? Yes, there certainly is! I don't feel that the choice of words is an issue of political correctitude, but rather a question of accuracy. Using the term "uncircumcised" to describe an intact, natural, normal penis perpetuates the typically American, myopic misconception that a penis with its foreskin surgically amputated is natural or normal, when the exact opposite is true. "Uncircumcised" clearly implies to the reader that the surgically altered penis is medically normal. Would one call a man with both arms a non-amputee? In countries where genital mutilation is uncommon, or even illegal, a circumcised or "cut" penis is unquestionably viewed as abnormal and unnatural. I think it all depends on how one wishes to see himself.--MrEguy 10:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

This is being discussed at Talk:Penis#"Intact" vs. "Uncircumcised".—Chidom talk  19:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

A elephant is an elephant. There is no need to qualify that description by saying that it is intact because it still has its tusks.

A penis is a penis. There is no need to qualify that description because it still has it's foreskin.

The word 'intact' is redundant. The word 'Circumcised' is sufficient to differentiate that penises which are circumcised.

Just2Jack 04:45, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moving content here? Summary style proposal for Circumcision article

The Circumcision page is getting too long, and there is a proposal to shorten it. This proposal involves moving some content from that page to this one (or verifying that certain content there is already represented here). Please discuss at Talk:Circumcision#Article too long?. --Coppertwig 13:29, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Details of moving content here

I'm moving/copying information here from Circumcision#History of circumcision.

Repetition: In this article, a similar sentence about a decline in circumcision Greece due to not liking it appears in two places -- should probably be edited down. (I changed the wording to match Circumcision but it was already repetitive.) --Coppertwig 00:37, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

This sentence: There are several hypotheses to explain why infant circumcision was accepted in the United States about the year 1900. at Circumcision is mostly a repetition of a sentence here, and I have not put it in here. --Coppertwig 00:46, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Re childbirth in hospitals: I'm replacing this link [3] with the one from the Circumcision article, except that I'm keeping this URL, as the one from the ref there doesn't work. --Coppertwig 00:59, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Stuff about South Korea and it being a unique case appears twice here (repetitive) and may not be precisely the same wording as at Circumcision. I'm not changing it at the moment. --Coppertwig 01:13, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I put in stuff about whether risks are discussed, and a prevalence table, because it was in the history section at Circumcision, but there may be a better place for it than this article.

I have essentially only added/changed information to make this article contain essentially everything from the history section of Circumcision; I haven't (yet) done any other edits to this article. --Coppertwig 01:23, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

The obvious place for the prevalence table is prevalence of circumcision, but I think it would be inappropriate to include it in its present form (I'll gladly discuss at Talk:Prevalence of circumcision if anyone wishes to do so). I suggest deleting the table, and linking to prevalence of... instead. Jakew 10:32, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Need to fix formatting of references. Two different styles are mixed. --Coppertwig 01:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I suggest renaming the previous "References" section to "Bibliography", and putting the newer references that use ref tags under "References". --Coppertwig 13:34, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

For the Pang reference (re South Korea): I couldn't get the url given at the Circumcision page to load. So I also include the cirp url within comment tags so it only shows in the wikitext. I did get the cirp url to load. Someone else can verify whether the other url loads and delete one of them, I suppose. --Coppertwig 23:23, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Deleting the table is OK with me. --Coppertwig 23:32, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I checked the reference list for duplicate references. --Coppertwig 13:59, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Info re hospitals and health insurance

Re this edit: [4] I think this information, if verifiable, should definitely be included in one of these articles; probably here, or perhaps at Circumcision and law or Prevalence of circumcision, except that possibly the info re Canadian health insurance can be abbreviated now that it's all the provinces -- it can be stated much more briefly, except that the info re a major hospital not permitting the operation is significant in itself and I think that sentence should be kept. It's definitely relevant information about circumcision. However, re one of the edit summaries, I think it's inaccurate to refer to circumcision as "outmoded". --Coppertwig 16:22, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Some of it may be relevant to other articles, but including information about individual hospitals is simply absurd (think about it: how many hospitals are in the world?). Frankly, I'm not at all sure where to include health insurance coverage, if indeed anywhere. Jakew 16:40, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Information about each individual hospital is not to be included, but in this case information about one particular hospital is interesting -- in the same way Manitoba was interesting when it was the only province providing coverage, but probably no longer needs to be specifically mentioned. It's interesting whether "all hospitals allow the procedure" or "there exists a hospital which does not". --Coppertwig 17:06, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
The source cited gives no indication that the hospital is special in this regard. It is simply a single fact about one hospital in isolation. Jakew 17:15, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Oh. Well, we could still say "at least one hospital no longer performs circumcisions" or something like that. Or even just leave the sentence about the one hospital. --Coppertwig 17:54, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
What is so important about this one fact about this single hospital that we need to discuss it in the context of the history of male circumcision? If another hospital closes their neurosurgery department then does that require explicit mention in the history of neurosurgery? Jakew 18:23, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I see your point. It's not as if babies born in that hospital are not allowed to get circumcised -- they just have to have it done elsewhere. Maybe you're right. --Coppertwig 20:59, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
It's not on all fours with closing a neurosurgery department. A hospital would close its neurosurgery department if it couldn't attract a neurosurgeon or couldn't afford to maintain the facilities and that would be unimportant to the history of neurosurgery, but it wouldn't decide that neurosurgery was against its principles. Circumcision is a fairly generic kind of surgery (which I have no doubt St Boniface's will continue to do where there is medical need), and the hospital's reason for cession has a bearing on the history of the operation, just as it is important to the history of circumcision in New Zealand that National Women's Hospital was the first to stop doing them, which closed the floodgates, as it were, and now none will.--Hugh7 02:56, 18 October 2007 (UTC)