Talk:History of astrology

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Contents 1 Rg Veda 2 Requested move: History of astrology → History of western astrology 2.1 Discussion 3 NPOV 4 Combine this page with other like pages 5 Astrology began as calender creation 6 African Astrology 7 Outdated And Inaccurate

[edit] Rg Veda

I removed the entire section on Rg Veda astrology. I have no doubt that there may be (and probably is) some star lore in this early Veda. However, the author from whom the material for this section was drawn, is claiming that comparison of Vishnu to a Lion or as a "Friend of Man" refers to the constellations Leo and Aquarius respectively. If there is to be a section on astrology in the Vedas, it should cover more obvious data such as the system of nakshatras (lunar mansions) used for ritualistic purposes. As a part of the history of science project, this article does not seem to receive much attention from historians of science who have read the relevant material on archeoastronomy. Zeusnoos 14:52, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

There is virtually no mention of astrology outside of the western tradition (Middle East, Mediterranean, European, and Euro colonists). This cannot be a history of astrology without mention of Vedic and Chinese astrologies at the very least. 132.205.93.19 04:40, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Be bold! I don't think anyone is opposing the addition of other astrological traditions.--TurabianNights 05:17, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

With the revised article, this is much better, but it also greatly increased the weight of the Western Astrology bit... especially everything about astrology in modern times, proponents and opponents. It now more than ever looks like a history of western astrology article. It's also getting long... so maybe it should be split into a history of western astrology, and then massively shorten western astrology here. (like moving all the 20th century western astrology, proponents and opponents of western astrology off to the history of western astrology section) 132.205.93.89 01:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Combine this page with other like pages

There is already a Western_astrology page and an Astrology_and_astronomy page. Furthermore, to those who say that this page should stand alone because it compares and contrasts the merge of Western and Eastern ideas, please take note that of the following sections in this article: "Chinese Astrology -- This section is a stub. You can help by adding to it. Chinese Astrology & Geomancy. Japanese Astrology & Geomancy. Vedic Astrology -- This section is a stub. You can help by adding to it." This page should really be combined with those other pages that compare and contrast astronomy and astrology and the history of such from a Western viewpoint. Especially as some of the above named pages directly contradict one another. When information is actually obtained showing how, historically, Western and Eastern astrology actually were integrated, rather than merely pointing out historical examples of people like Aleister Crowley who sought to master "everything", then we can begin to debate on whether these pages should actually be seperated. Banaticus 01:34, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Astrology began as calender creation

from my Poview, the history of astrology should be removed from a dispute status at Wikipedia and organized as an early and active earthly observation of cyclical behavior used for calender creation. Astrology cyclical observation was and is the history of things that repeat, and thus a calender or agenda based science. It is not an area for dispute at Wiki pedia, but a calender observation process to facilitate human agenda allocation through the calendar method. mca5516 12 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mca5516 (talk • contribs) 21:37, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] African Astrology

Astronomy and Astrology start during Classical African Civilization, Kemet (Egypt) c. 4200 b.C.E. with the earliest know astrology chart in recorded history created by Imhotep.

Cultural Literacy Minute: Wikipedia in articles related to history usually is missing the African historical contributions to subject mater.

They are getting better and I and other wikipedians have corrected some of the errors. The Astrology article needs work in this area.

   Indian astrology, Hindu astrology, and of late, Vedic astrology). It has three branches:[1]

You will note African Astrology is missing from this 3 branch view of Astrology.

   With the introduction of Greek culture into Egypt, both astronomy and astrology were actively cultivated in the region of the Nile during the Hellenistic and Roman periods. 

A Culturally Poisoning Alert: Kemet (Egypt) influenced the Geeks regarding astrology not the other way around.

Later in the same article it points to Kemetic Astrology c. 4200 B.C.E. and that the signs of astrology come from Kemet and that the pyramids were the first known astrological calculator.

Wikipedia is a remarkable place, one of the few where you can find the historical exclusion errors and their corrections on the same page, LoL. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aunk (talk • contribs) 03:30, 26 February, 2008

The 4200 bce figure is wrong, there are no star charts (as claimed on various websites including Wikipedia at some point) dating to then.Doug Weller (talk) 06:32, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Outdated And Inaccurate

This page is out of date for many reasons. Firstly and most importantly, ancient astrology was very different from modern Astrology and had different forms in different places. Secondly, the development of astrology went hand in hand with the development of astronomy and both started long before 1600 BCE. Also the idea that Babylon is the origin of Western Astrology is only part of the truth. The whole truth is that Western astrology as we know it today, is something that has been synthesized from many different traditions by the Greeks in Egypt. Prior to this there was no such thing as Western Astrology, as "the West" did not exist and those cultures who did practice astrology in ancient times were not "Western". In reality much of what we call Western or Modern Astrology has its origins in Egypt.

The following are ideas relevant to the topic but not often listed in discussions on the subject. Such omissions make it hard to believe that there is a comprehensive understanding on the history of astrology and astronomy in general.

In Egypt you have the earliest association between childbirth and time keeping and heavenly bodies. The time keeping of ancient Egypt was through hour watchers in the day and night. By definition horoscope means hour or time watcher of the heavenly bodies. Therefore, the coffin decan star lists are some of the earliest horoscopes in existence. These maps being in coffins, under the sign of nut also shows the circle of life itself, from time and moment of birth to time and moment of death as part of the great cycle of sunrise and sunset, being born from the womb and returning to it. Evidence of some of the earliest star charts were found in Egypt from around 2100 B.C. and are most likely part of a tradition that is far older.

Examples of such can be seen here:

http://www.culturediff.org/english/stellarclocks1.htm

hor·o·scope [ háwrə skp ] (plural hor·o·scopes) noun Definition: 1. astrological forecast: an astrologer's description of the personality and future of a person based on the position of the planets in relation to the sign of the zodiac under which the person was born 2. diagram of planetary relationship: the positions of the stars or planets relative to each another at a specific moment, especially the time of somebody's birth, or a diagram of these positions [Pre-12th century. Via Latin< Greek hōroskopos "time observer" < hōra "time, hour" (of birth)]

From: http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861618762/horoscope.html

The hour watchers ultimately were responsible for watching for the changes of seasons and forecasting upcoming events according to the calendar. The most significant being the arrival of the time of planting. Success in forecasting and watching for the arrival of the "sign" of the time for planting and the inundation, became a way of forecasting a successful planting season and harvest. Therefore, time keeping (hour watching) becomes a way of "forecasting" times of plenty and prosperity and life. It also becomes a way of "forecasting" the time of death, the season of dryness and shallow rivers. Hence, all the elements for what determine the course of human existence in terms of life and death, success or failure, prosperity or poverty were at a very early time associated with "horoscopes" or hour charts and associated with heavenly bodies. As an extension of this, the Pharaoh as the living sun became the embodiment of these principles and therefore his sunrise and sunset were most important for the country and as living horus, the hours of his life became the basis of the fate of the country. This association with the movements of the pharoah as the living "sun" in his day and night barques became the basis of the special 'horoscopes' (timekeeping) embodied in the regnal calendars for each pharaoh. Therefore, the symbolic birth of the "sun" was an important event, marking the time of the pharaoh ascending to the throne, symbolically born of the gods from "nut" or whatever deity they chose. Of course, as the fate of the country was tied to the course of the pharaoh in life, foretelling the rising of the "sun" and the potential for plenty became a key aspect of the pharaohs life.

Therefore, the horoscopes or watching of the heavens and movements of the heavenly bodies were not just important at childbirth but throughout their lifetimes, down to the hour and minute. As every moment was related to some movement of the heavenly bodies and the horoscope.

In Egypt you have some of the earliest images of patterns of stars superimposed onto anthropomorphic entities of some sort, meaning the earliest constellations. These constellations developed around the stars and other "heavenly bodies" that were observed as part of the tradition of time keeping in Egypt.

Meshkenet, early deity of fate and child birth:

In Ancient Egyptian mythology, Meskhenet, (also spelt Mesenet, Meskhent, and Meshkent) was the goddess of childbirth, and the creator of each child's Ka, a part of their soul, which she breathed into them at the moment of birth. She was worshipped from the earliest of times by Egyptians. In ancient Egypt, women delivered babies while squatting on a pair of bricks, known as birth bricks, and Meskhenet was the goddess associated with this form of delivery. Consequently, in art, she sometimes was depicted as a brick with a woman's head, wearing a cow's uterus upon it. At other times she was depicted as a woman with a symbolic cow's uterus on her headdress. Since she was responsible for creating the Ka, she was associated with fate. Thus later she sometimes was said to be paired with Shai, who became a god of destiny after the deity evolved out of an abstract concept. It was said that Meskhenet was present at the birth of triplets, and foretold in their fates, that they would each be pharaohs - the triplets in question were Sahure, Userkaf, and Neferirkare Kakai, who were the first pharaohs in the fifth dynasty (although Userkaf was not the sibling of the other two, but their father). Meskhenet also was believed to be the earliest wife of Andjety the god of rebirth in the underworld. Andjety appears to have been worshipped since pre-dynastic times at Andjet, and is thought by most Egyptologists to be the god who eventually became Osiris.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meskhenet

Renenet by Micha F. Lindemans The Egyptian personification of Fortune. Her name and that of Shai (Fate) are usually found coupled. They are said to be in the hands of Thoth, the divine intelligence of of the gods. Rameses II boasted that he himself is "lord of Shai and creator of Renenet." According to the Pyramid Texts, she was the goddess of plenty, good fortune, and the like; subsequently there was no distinction made between these deities and the abstract ideas the represented. Renenet is accompanied by Meskhenet, who acted as midwife and presided over the birth-chamber.

From: http://www.pantheon.org/articles/r/renenet.html

In her role of fertility goddess, Renenutet was known as the "Lady of Fertile Fields" and "Lady of Granaries". She was thought to be responsible for looking after the harvest (this was probably because the Egyptians saw snakes hiding in the fields at harvest time), especially in the city of Dja (Modern Medinet Madi, Greek Narmouthis) where an annual festival was dedicated to her where she was offered the best yields of the crops. There was also often a shrine dedicated to her near a wine press or vat, so she could receive the offerings of the wine makers. She was both linked to Sobek and Osiris, and thought to be linked with Isis in her role as mother of Horus. She was believed to be the mother of Nepri, god of grain. She was also linked to the coming of the inundation and to Hapi, the god of the Nile: I will make the Nile swell for you, without there being a year of lack and exhaustion in the whole land, so the plants will flourish, bending under their fruit. Renenutet is in all things - everything will be brought forth by the million and everybody ...... in whose granary there had been dearth. The land of Egypt is beginning to stir again, the shores are shining wonderfully, and wealth and well-being dwell with them, as it had been before. -- Famine Stele on the Island of Sehel As her name might suggest, she was also though to be the goddess who gave a child his or her 'true name'. The Egyptian for name - rn - are the same hieroglyphs used at the start of Renenutet, and so she could also be called "She who is in the Name". To the Egyptians, as shown by the story of Ra's secret name (which Isis manages to find out, through trickery), if someone knew the true name of a person, then that person has power over the other - a name was very important to the ancient Egyptians. It was believed that if both the image of the dead and the name of the dead was obliterated, then the deceased's souls would also be destroyed. It was because of this that she also became a goddess of fortune. Her name, and the name of the god of destiny, Shai, were often found together in the Book of the Dead. Ramsses II even called himself "Lord of Shai and Creator of Renenutet". She was also seen in the Book of the Dead at the judgement of the deceased together with Meskhenet, a goddess of childbirth. Where Meskhenet presided over the actual birth itself, Renenutet looked after the newborn child; She offered her protection, nurtured the child and gave the child his or her secret name. The Temple of Renenutet at Medinet MaadiShai was originally the deity who "decreed" what should happen to a man, and Renenutet, as may be seen from the pyramid texts, was the goddess of plenty, good fortune, and the like; subsequently no distinction was made between these deities and the abstract ideas which they represented.

From: http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/renenutet.htm

Some of the oldest traditions of oracles and fortune tellers came from Egypt, including the great Oracle of Amun, which was visited by Alexander the Great. Of course the point here is that the tradition of prophecy concerning the rise of kings in Egypt as the newborn "sun" was an ancient tradition and Alexander knew about it.

This tradition of horoscopes (ie. charts of the movements of the heavenly bodies) evolved over time in Egypt, first occurring in coffin lids (as far as the evidence we have), and then moving to the tops of the tombs themselves. It is the tomb ceilings of the 18th dynasty during which more advanced forms of the star charts from the Middle Kingdom are seen. And it is during this period that we see some of the earliest examples of movements of the heavenly bodies depicted in the form of a pie chart, or circle divided into sections. From this we can see clearly the pattern of association between the movement of the heavenly bodies and circles subdivided into sections, which would lead ultimately to representing the hours of the day in circular form on clock faces. This association is also part of an important step that led to or was part of the concept of astrological houses, where movements of certain constellations are represented on a subdivided circle representing various heavenly bodies. Ultimately, this tradition of putting star charts and scar clocks or "hour scopes, hour charts" on the ceilings of tombs and temples, as well as using subdivided circles to represent such movements and bodies, led to the development of the astronomical ceiling found on the temple of Denderah, which is where the modern Zodiac originated.

Examples of star charts and hour charts (horoscopes) on the ceilings of Senmut's tomb, from the 18th dynasty:

http://homepage.mac.com/pete.boardman/24hourclock/history/index.html

Big-dynamo (talk) 18:08, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

If ancient astrology was very different from modern astrology, how are you defining astrology to encompass both?

The Egyptians were a very practical people. They used their observations of the stars, sun, moon etc. to predict sunrise for religious rituals, various times of the year, etc. This is not astrology as I understand it nor are the charts you mention above horoscopes. Dendera's zodiac ceiling is only there (or rather in the Louvre now) because of Hellenistic influence, it's not some sort of straight line development from Senmut I's cenotaph (not a tomb, and it was explained to me by an archaeologist working on it while I was sitting looking at the actual ceiling.

What is the relationship between an oracle and astrology? The Oracle of Amun made the god's will (or the priests' will) clear, it didn't predict.

Babylonian astrology provided portents, indications of the intentions of the gods and future possibilities. Egyptian 'astronomers' made practical predictions. That's not astrology.Doug Weller (talk) 18:38, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The development of civilization is itself a matter of practicality, concerning the development of writing, the arts, science, math and agriculture. All ancient civilizations were practical in that sense and ancient Egypt was no different. But ancient Egyptian culture also featured a very ancient and very sophisticated system of cosmology, that enveloped all areas of human activity, which means that everything in Egypt was not practical. There is no practical reason for putting artwork and books and star charts in tombs or coffin lids. Therefore, the ancient Egyptians were just as superstitious as any other ancient culture, but unique in their own way.

A cenotaph is still a tomb and the point is that the tradition of putting such star charts in tombs from the time of Senmut goes back to the charts on the coffin lids of earlier dynasties. They are part of the same tradition. Since most of the ceilings from temples prior to the GrecoRoman period no longer exist, we cannot say for sure whether they had any sorts of star charts in them, but the likelihood is quite obvious. The imagery and depiction of star charts in ancient Egyptian monuments is ancient and the ceiling of Dendera was part of this tradition, not separate from it.

As for portents and indications of future prosperity, such things are found in all cultures and all ancient cultures. Mesopotamia is not unique in this respect. Ancient Egypt has tales like the Phrophecy of Neferti detailing portents of future kings. As posted, looking to the heavens for "signs" signaling the future arrival of times of plenty or times of poverty were all found in ancient Egypt from a very early period and such forecasts based on the movement of the heavenly bodies were very significant in the development of what we now call astrology.

Big-dynamo (talk) 20:04, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The point I am making is that Astrology as now practiced is made up of various elements that were taken from various places and can be traced back to the melding of these elements by the Greeks in Egypt. You are speaking of predictions as being all that is part of modern Astrology, but actually that is not correct. That isn't all that modern astrology is. Early astrology was based on observing and predicting movements of the 'heavenly bodies' relative to events on earth and developing charts and diagrams for mapping such movements. The charts derived from such observations were used to relate earthly events with the movements of the 'heavenly bodies', in other words for tracking time. Therefore, consulting hour charts was an early form of time keeping and the consulting of such charts in relationship to the key events in the cycle of human life, birth and death, are found in Egypt at a very early time. These are all elements of modern astrology not just predictions. Not only that, but these early charts clearly show patterns of stars associated with anthropomorphic entities at an early period in Egypt as well, with many of these entities being associated with various energies in life. So, the importance of using such charts of the heavens to record the time of birth were a direct ancestor of modern astrology. The key difference that I am discussing is that many more esoteric notions on the 'energies' and 'meanings' of the various movements of the heavens and heavenly bodies are the result of associations and meanings that were not present 3,000 years ago and have accumulated since then.

And, how is the fact of the Egyptian practice of putting hour charts or charts of the 'heavenly bodies' not a tradition which led to the development of the ceiling of Denderah? They are the same thing, the only difference being one is circular (Denderah) and the others are rectilinear, along with Denderah including many more constellations as known 1,000 years after the ceiling of Senmut. But the concept is the same, they are both maps of the 'heavenly bodies' based on the knowledge of the people at a given time and all of them are derived from the ancient observations of the heavens for the telling of time.

American Federation of Astrologists statement on early Astrology:

Babylonian Beginnings The Babylonians are generally credited with the birth of astrology. Their astrological charts enabled them to predict the recurrence of seasons and certain celestial events. So, in the beginning and for more than 2,000 years, astrology and astronomy were the same science. Babylonian astrology was introduced to the Greeks early in the 4th century B.C. and, through the studies of Plato, Aristotle, and others, astrology came to be highly regarded as a science. It was soon embraced by the Romans (the Roman names for the zodiacal signs are still used today) and the Arabs and later spread throughout the entire world. While earliest astrology was used to bring a sense of order out of apparent chaos, it was soon utilized to predict weather patterns, primarily for agricultural purposes. It was eventually broadened to include forecasts of natural disasters and war and other events in the course of human affairs. Amassing successes in these fields, it was a natural progression for astrology to be used as counsel for kings and emperors and, in time, for all of us.

From: http://www.astrologers.com/history/

But again, if the science of ancient astrology was basically related to astronomy and making star charts or hour charts (horoscopes) then Egypt was one of the places where the evidence for such activities is most ancient. Big-dynamo (talk) 19:41, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't have time right now to write more, but it is clear that you and the American Federation of Astrologists disagree, and your position is basically Original Research by you. Interesting, but not appropriate for Wikipedia I'm afraid. Do you really not see any basic difference between what the Babylonians did and the Egyptians?Doug Weller (talk) 19:57, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

These are all points of discussion, which is why they are posted on the talk page not the main page. However, the facts are clear. The American Association of Anthropology states clearly that the earliest forms of astrology were no different than astronomy. Ancient Egypt has some of the oldest traditions of star charts and hour maps (horoscopes) in existence. And none of this is original research by me. I am only posting references and sources available on the web for discussion not the result of any research into textual sources outside of the internet.

To reiterate the key points so as they are not to be confused:

Elements of astrology:

1) star charts for time keeping based on the observations of 'heavenly bodies'
2) anthromorphic entities superimposed on stars and other 'heavenly bodies'
3) Consulting such charts for tracking the time of key events: (birth, death, harvest, etc).
4) Energies associated with the various heavenly bodies which have an affect on human events.
5) Associations between the positions of the heavenly bodies at time of birth to the fate of the individual
6) Associations between the position of the heavenly bodies and times of plenty and times of death
7) Making prophecies and foretelling based on the position of the heavenly bodies at any given time

All of these elements were found in ancient Egypt at a very early time, but the last element is the one that is most often emphasized as part of the modern tradition of astrology, with Babylon given as the place of origin. However, elements 1 through 6 are not just found in Babylon and are as much a part of the development of modern astrology as any tradition of foretelling from Babylon.

Big-dynamo (talk) 20:18, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

And yet the American Federation of Astrologers says astrology originated in Babylon. You appear to be doing a synthesis of things you have found (and I don't agree with them all anyway), and that is still original research. If you find an academic publication that agrees with you, you may have found a POV that can be included, but only as a minority point of view.Doug Weller (talk) 21:02, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The reason I posted the quote from the web page is to show the double talk surrounding the "official" supposed origin of astrology. They say that the earliest Astrology was astronomy, where the movement of the heavenly bodies were observed and recorded. However, Egypt has some of the oldest extant examples of any sort of astronomy in existence, going back to the star maps in the coffin lids of the middle kingdom. Therefore, what they are saying is that astronomy started in Babylon and not in Egypt, which is incorrect. Show me an example of a Babylonian or Mesopotamian star chart from the time of the Ceiling of Senmut. The point is that Egyptian traditions related to the fields of astronomy are being omitted from the discussion of star charts and star maps, the oldest of which are found in Egypt, not Babylon. The sources of Babylonian Astrology go back to the Enuma anu enlil, which is a compendium of many different astronomical events, weather preditions and omens. However, this is not astrology as we know it, which is based on a person's birth date (birth house) along with the alignment of the planets on a given day. It is a set of general omens and predictions based on various phenomena, not the daily sort of horoscope based on a person's birth month as we know it today. But in Egypt all of the earliest star charts we have crouched within the symbolism of the cycle of birth, death and new life. Nut, the star goddess, was always depicted in these Egyptian star maps and the symbolism of cycles of the rising of the sun and other key heavenly bodies was associated with being born and dying. Therefore, hour charts and time keeping relative to the cycles of a person's life, meaning birth, death and new life are clearly established very early in ancient Egypt, with no parallel in Babylon. Likewise, the Deities Shia, Renenutet and others makes it clear that foretelling fate associated with someone's birth were concepts clearly seen in Egypt at a very early date. Also keep in mind that this early association of the woman's body with the cycles of time, birth, death, harvest and new life are also reflective of the nature of child birth and the woman's monthly cycle, which also portends to periods of fertility and life.

Another example of the differences between modern and ancient astrology and the omission of important Egyptian precedents is the concept of houses. A house is a circle divided up into sections with a stellar body or planet assigned to each sector. Such a concept did not exist in early Babylonian star charts, yet they are clearly seen in the early star charts of ancient Egypt. The ceiling of Senmut shows 12 such wheels in it's horoscope (hour chart). Therefore, one cannot claim that representing heavenly bodies in a circle subdivided into sections is something that originated in Babylon. Yet this is something that is a key part of modern astrology. Likewise, no horoscopes meaning stellar clocks or star maps for telling time based on the positions of the heavenly bodies existed in Babylon until fairly late. However, such horoscopes are seen quite early in ancient Egypt, in the coffin lids of the Middle Kingdom and the ceiling of Senmut. Those are the earliest horoscopes ever found. Likewise, no zodiacs wheels existed in ancient Babylon until relatively late and the earliest modern zodiac was found in Egypt at Denderah. However, the concept of the zodiac wheel again goes back to the subdivision of a circle as a way of representing astronomical relationships. The earliest such examples of such a wheels are those found in the astronomical ceiling of Senmut. And as far as astronomical ceilings of any sort, there is no tradition as ancient as that of Egypt and therefore it cannot be said that the idea of putting a star chart on the ceiling of a temple is something that was imported into Egypt when the Denderah ceiling was created. The Denderah Zodiac is a zodiac wheel, with various Egyptian, Greek and Babylonian constellations superimposed on it. But the concept of star charts, star wheels and the like on the ceilings of Egyptian monuments was not new in any sense. So again, as I was posting earlier, what you have in modern astrology is the combination of various elements of astronomical traditions from Egypt, Babylon and elsewhere under the Greeks in Egypt, forming the basis for our modern form of astrology.

Again, if none of these facts can be contended, especially the early star charts and hour charts of Egypt along with the symbolism of birth associated with them, then it doesn't matter whether academics agree or not.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horoscope

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enuma_anu_enlil

http://theabysmal.wordpress.com/category/constellations/

http://www.geocities.com/astrologyomens/index.htm

http://www.geocities.com/astrologyzodiacs/index.htm Big-dynamo (talk) 00:00, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

It matters very much for Wikipedia whether or not this is your opinion based on your synthesis of other stuff or whether you can source this from reliable sources.Doug Weller (talk) 06:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I've just realised that you are presumably new to Wikipedia as a user, you might want to read Wikipedia:No original research and maybe Wikipedia:Verifiability.Doug Weller (talk) 06:45, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

As I said earlier, this is why I posted it on the talk page. These are points for discussion.

However, the coffin lids of the Middle Kingdom and the ceiling of Senmut are not theories, they are fact. The definition of horoscope as a star chart or hour chart based on the position of the planets is not theory but fact. The fact is that the ceiling of Senmut shows planets and is a star chart or hour chart for calculating time and features 12 circles divided into 24 sections each. It is, by definition, a horoscope. All modern Astrology is based on finding the position of planets and other bodies from a star chart based on date, then using those positions to determine the energies and their impacts on a person's life. But you can't have astrology without the star charts. And the definition of horoscope as a star chart or consulting of such charts to determine time hark back to the antiquity of such devices for timekeeping, even without the forecasting that has become part of modern astrology. The ceiling of senmut is one of the earliest examples of such a chart in existence. The relevant Babylonian tablets are called the venus tablets of ammisaduqa which document the rising and setting of the planet venus. However, if this is documented as astronomy and is only given a range of dates from somewhere in the 2nd millenium B.C. then why is the earlier evidence of Egyptian observations of Sirius not considered an earlier example of astronomy. The coffin lids of the Middle Kingdom certainly show charts of the planets and stars as the basis for timekeeping far earlier than the Venus tablets. These coffin lids are facts. That they contain astronomical information is also fact. Therefore, if it isn't considered relevant to early astronomy/astrology, then there is something wrong with the scholarship. If I as a layman can see this than the so called experts should be able to see it as well and if they are omitting these facts from their discussions of astrology and astronomy, the problem is with the scholarship, not me. If an expert in the field does not see the early association between a woman's body, the stars, birth and death and the movement of the heavenly bodies from ancient Egypt as relevant to a discussion on astrology, then the problem is with them, not me, especially when many other later texts of astrology feature very similar motifs. However, some people will argue from authority on everything, even if that authority is incorrect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_tablets_of_Ammisaduqa

But I am not pretending to resolve that here. As I said, this is a talk page and I am only recommending points for further research in possibly updating the main page. Big-dynamo (talk) 13:34, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

As for Senmut there are two memorial "tombs" one is actually a "tomb" in that it is subterranean and most likely not open to the public and the other is the shrine. TT353 is the subterranean structure in which the astronomical ceiling is found. TT71 is the cenotaph.

http://www.maat-ka-ra.de/english/personen/senenmut/sen_grab.htm http://www.maat-ka-ra.de/english/personen/senenmut/sen_tt71.htm http://www.maat-ka-ra.de/english/personen/senenmut/sen_t353.htm

http://www.kennyzen.com/ae_senmut_sah.htm

The following link is to a current research project on the Senenmuts monmuments:

http://www.institutoestudiosantiguoegipto.com/senenmut/en/senenmut.shtml

Textual references on Senenmut's astronomical ceiling:

* BEDMAN, T.: Hapuseneb y Senenmut: los valedores de una reina. RESME, 2. México, 1996.
* CASAL ARETXABALETA, B. Del.: Hatshepsut. La primogénita del dios Amon. Madrid, 1998.
* DORMAN, P. F., "The Monuments of Senenmut.", 1988.
* DORMAN, P. F., "The Tombs of Senenmut. The Architecture and Decoration of Tombs 71 and 353.", Metropolitan Museum of Art Egyptian Expedition, 1991.
* GRAEFE, E., Das sogenannte Senenmut-Kryptogramm." GM 38, 1980.
* HABACHI; L., "Two Graffiti at Sehêl from the Reign of Queen Hatshepsut.", JNES 16, 1957.
* HAYES, W., "Varia From the Time of Hatshepsut.", MDAIK 15, 1957.
* HELCK, W., "Die Opferstiftung des Senenmut", ZÄS 85, 1960. Meyer, Chr., "Senenmut: eine prosopographische Untersuchung", 1982.
* NIEDZIÓLKA, D., "Some Remarks on the Graffito of Senenmut at Aswan",Egyptology I, 1999.
* SILIOTTI, A.: El Valle de los Reyes y los templos de la necrópolis tebana. Barcelona, 1997.

http://books.google.com/books?id=v9tCdieiiKkC&pg=PP13&lpg=PP13&dq=Meyer+egyptian&source=web&ots=Qgb4GGJ5iI&sig=ktm--_fLmSdR7eoC2MV2v6gGtV0&hl=en#PPP1,M1

The recently discovered astronomical ceiling-decoration in the tomb of Senmut (XVIIIth dynasty; about 1500 B.C.) follows, in general, the same prototype as the well-known ceiling in the Ramesseum (XIXth dynasty; about 1250 B.C.); the ceiling of Seti I (XIXth dynasty; about 1300 B.C.) follows a different tradition. Both traditions contain elements of different antiquity. Important new features of the Senmut ceiling are the 12 monthly circles subdivided into 24 hourly sectors (unfinished ≪ monthly star-charts ≫ ?), and the two ≪ meridian cords ≫ (connected with the ceremony of the ≪ stretching of the cord ≫ involving the observation of an upper culmination of Zeta Ursae Majoris?). For a tentative identification of several stars and constellations represented in the circumpolar group of the northern panel or mentioned in the decanologue of the southern panel, a celestial globe was used. The precession of the equinoxes was taken care of by the drilling of several pairs of polar holes; the latitude of Thebes was taken as the altitude of the pole. A repetition of the experiment in a Zeiss planetarium is suggested. The possibility of an exact dating of the three ceilings of the XVIIIth and XIXth dynasties by the use of their planetary data is pointed out.

From: http://www.jstor.org/pss/224678

As can be seen above the Senenmut ceiling contains some of the earliest horoscopes, ie. hour charts, in existence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.99.117.171 (talk) 16:08, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

The Astronomical Inscriptions on the Coffins of Heny (XIth Dynasty?), by A. Pogo © 1932 The History of Science Society. Abstract The fragments of the coffins of Ḥeny (XIth dynasty?) were discovered at Asyut in 1922 (see G. A. Wainwright and Battiscombe Gunn, Annales du service des antiquités de l'Égypte, 26, 160-71, 1926). These fragments confirm the hypothesis (see Isis, XIV, 306, 1930) that the astronomical ceiling decorations in the tombs originated as astronomical inscriptions on coffins. The essential features of both the northern and the southern panel are identified on the Ḥeny/eb fragments. The orientation of the panels is discussed.

From: http://www.jstor.org/pss/224476

As I can see my account has been disabled, I can only suppose this is because some people cannot stand the truth (big-dynamo).

76.99.117.171 (talk) 15:41, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I see no evidence that your account has been disabled. However, you need try to understand a bit more how Wikipedia actually works, and note that the guideline for Talk pages such as this says "Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views." Which is of course what you are doing here. Your infodump above is interesting but irrelevant to your argument. Of course there is a fantastic ceiling in Senenmut's cenotaph, I've been in there and seen it and had it explained to me by the archaeologists working on it. But all these facts (far too many for a talk page) are irrelevant. Like it or not, articles on Wikipedia require references and there are guidelines for the types of references preferred. You are trying to cast your own opinions on how these 'facts' should be interpreted and argue that the article should be rewritten to represent your point of view. But until you can show that your point of view is shared by a substantial number of reliable sources, it is irrelevant.

Note that you are extremely unlikely to get blocked without any warning. And you've had no warnings, there is no block on you that I can see, so maybe you should reboot your PC or something.--Doug Weller (talk) 16:36, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

OK. Account problems aside. The "info dump" as posted has not been addressed. The references have been given. The most relevant part being that some scholars have referenced the wheels in Senenmut's ceilings as hour charts based on the movements of the planets. As posted, a horoscope is defined as a hour chart or star chart based on the movement of the planets for time keeping. This is what a clock face is based on. Those are not my opinions those are citations from published scholars. Therefore, you cannot try and pretend this is a personal view because it isn't. As I said, this is a question of omission in my opinion, not a question of personal scholarship. The relevant scholarship is there and there is no scholar that denies that Senenmut's ceiling is not an astronomical chart or containing diagrams of the hours of the day. Also, as I have cited, there is no earlier evidence of such hour charts represented in any way where constellations are superimposed on anthropomorphic figures or circles subdivided into 24 sections representing hours as seen in the ceiling of Senenmut found in Babylon. Therefore, as I have said, I suggest that this article be updated to refer to this omitted data that has been published. The Zodiac ceiling of Denderah was developed in Egypt as a merging of older astronomical, mythical, cosmological and iconographic traditions of Egypt, Greece, Babylon and elsewhere, which means modern astrology is not simply derived from Babylonian omen texts. Omen texts are not horoscopes. Horoscopes are based on star charts. The idea of associating star charts with the concept of childbirth originates in Egypt and are clearly observed in the most ancient depictions and mythologies around the goddess Nut, not in Babylon. Therefore, it cannot be suggested that such a concept originated in Babylon. Those are facts, not opinions and the scholarly articles are readily available for those who serious about researching it. I would do it, but I don't have the time. It isn't hard, the references are there and this isn't personal opinion. If you or anyone else is serious about the subject then look into it for yourself. But don't claim you are ignoring it because of "wikipedia standards" because that is an excuse for continued omission of relevant facts, not any sort of scholarly debate.

The sky goddess Nut has been associated with childbirth and the stars in Egypt since the old kingdom, there is nothing about it that was imported from Babylon. The Egyptians have been associating childbirth with the movement of the stars since the very beginning of Egypt and such a concept is very important to astrology and is not something that simply came from Babylon as a concept. This along with the godesses Renenutet and Mekhenet shows that the movement of the heavens, child birth, prosperity and plenty as well as "fate" have been found in Egyptian cosmology from a very early period and such a concept is not seen in Babylon until much later.

http://touregypt.net/featurestories/sky.htm
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/renenutet.htm
http://touregypt.net/godsofegypt/meskhenet.htm

The fact that these things are not found in a discussion of astrology and astronomy constitutes an omission and not simply my personal opinion as numerous scholars have documented these concepts in Egypt and there is nobody that doubts the astronomical and cosmological symbolism within them. 76.99.117.171 (talk) 17:36, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

The whole truth is that Western astrology as we know it today, is something that has been synthesized from many different traditions by the Greeks in Egypt. Prior to this there was no such thing as Western Astrology, as "the West" did not exist and those cultures who did practice astrology in ancient times were not "Western"."

That's an interesting argument. I think you're talking about horoscopic astrology, which is mentioned in the Hellenistic Astrology section. I'm aware of some research that puts the use of diagonal star clocks in Egypt back into the 2nd millennium BC at least. Unfortunately it's work in progress - and not mine. This means I cannot cite it because of the Verifiability policy. There's certainly masses of research waiting to be done on Egyptian sky watching, but to what extent this is astronomy or astrology is also a matter of Original Research, and Wikipedia isn't the place to publish that. I'd suggest approaching the American Federation of Astrologers and possibly a few other similar societies and persuade them to change their pages. If they do then there's then a strong case for changing the Wikipedia entry. Alun Salt (talk) 18:19, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Egyptian decan charts, or diagonal star clocks are some of the oldest such texts in existence. This is not original research as Otto Neugebauer published his interperetations of such decan lists many years ago. Again, it is a question of omission not original research. The point being that any discussion of Astrology starts with the Babylonians as watchers of the stars, but omits the fact that the earliest actual evidence of star charts astronomical texts are found in Egypt and the Goddess nut was always the cosmological embodiment of the starry sky, which implies that the cycles of the season, the rising of the sun, the cycle of birth and death were always associated with the movement of time and the cycles of the decans (time) in Egyptian cosmology.

All of this is documented and the research on this was published 40 years ago by Richard Parker and Otto Neugebauer in Egyptian Astronomical Texts volumes 1 through 3. It is also documented in Ancient Egyptian Science Volume II by Marshall Claggett. So the idea that evidence for astronomy in Egypt and symbolism associated with Nut the cycle of birth, death and the movement of the time, star charts, decan hours and seasons is not original research at all. It is an omission as stated. This stuff is not new and has been known about for many years.

A good summary of the research on diagonal "star clocks" in all periods of Egyptian history as well as the relationship to the goddess Nut and later Zodiacs are seen here, with references to various works, including Neugebauer and Parker.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/gtosiris/page11-18.html

76.99.117.171 (talk) 19:20, 6 April 2008 (UTC) (big-dynamo)

http://books.google.com/books?id=xKKPUpDOTKAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Ancient+Egyptian+science&sig=eqKUnQK106BhdNXkEBzozdhn8ic

76.99.117.171 (talk) 19:00, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

That's handy, but have you noticed that they don't talk about astrology much? Some of the work over the past forty years looking at the social side of how these things were used as well as refining the dating, which is not entirely settled. One upshot of this is that it's not certain this is astrology. For instance you have Symons' work asking if a star clock is a clock or something else. At the same time cosmology and astrology are not the same thing, so it's not cut 'n' dried. Wikipedia reflects mainstream opinion, it doesn't set it, hence the suggestion that you persuade astrologers that the Egyptian material is Astrology. If the AFA agree with you then you'll be able to cite them and get round the OR problem.

If you're interested Tamsyn Barton's Ancient Astrology published by Routledge in 1994 may be of help as an introductory text to more recent thought on the subject. There's also Ancient Astronomy and Celestial Divination edited by Swerdlow in 1999 (MIT). Neugebauer's Exact Sciences in Antiquity is also clear on the Mesopotamian origin of Astrology. It's on page 100 with a more detailed reasoning on page 188 in the Dover Edition. Hope this helps. Alun Salt (talk) 19:47, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Well understood, however the point is that no culture had astrology as we know it until fairly late. Therefore, to say that the Egyptian decanal star clocks are not astrology is to miss the point. The point is that the decanal star charts are horoscopes, meaning hour charts or charts of the decan stars which were used to tell time. Horoscope means hour watcher or charts related to hour watching and the decanal charts of ancient Egypt are some of the oldest in existence. And most of the charts from Egypt are based on movements of the decans and the associated constellations. This is where the word hour scope, horus scope or horoscope comes from and it did not originally mean astrology it meant hour watcher. Obviously, the point is that the development of timekeeping and subdividing the day into hours through the observance of hour watchers is ancient in Egypt and part of the traditions that eventually led to what we now call astrology. But no culture in 2,000 B.C had astrology as we know it today. Therefore, arguments over whether these early decan charts are accurate are irrelevant to the fact that they represent the earliest evidence of the concept of star charts for tracking and telling time based on observations of the stars as well as associating patterns of stars with anthropomorphic entities, what we call constellations. There are no Babylonian constellations we have evidence for from 2,000 B.C. But we do have examples of constellations from ancient Egypt in 2,000 B.C in the form of Sah and Mesketiu, all of which is documented by mainstream scholars. The Babylonians did not have anything approaching modern astrology in 2,000 B.C. Books of omens are not horoscopes. Horoscopes predicting a persons fate based on time and date of birth were later concepts. What they are given credit for as part of the development of astrology is the idea that they observed the stars and developed calendars which is astronomy. So we are talking about an early period in time when astronomy and astrology were one in the same. But ancient Egypt had been developing calendars and observing the stars for telling time since a very early period. Therefore, any discussion of early astronomy that does not discuss ancient Egypt is omitting facts, not original research and mainstream archaeologists have already conceded that the early star charts are evidence of astronomical activity in ancient Egypt. The fact that they differ in the details does not change this. What star charts are there from Babylon that we can use as clocks and are accurate going back to 2,000 B.C.? As I said, the original meaning of horoscope was for time keeping, not predictions as we know it today. What I am saying is that over time the Egyptian decanal system evolved, their cosmology surrounding it evolved, just as the omen texts and traditions surrounding such in Babylon evolved. With the Greeks came even more evolved mechanisms for accurate tracking and predictions of movements of heavenly bodies, which they combined with older Babylonian and Egyptian concepts and constellations into the precursor for modern Astrology.

Again, this is about omission because if you notice there is also no topic on Wikipedia under astronomy covering Egyptian astronomy either. Again an obvious omission. At the same token, I lay the blame for these omissions on the laps of the same scholars who published the material on Ancient Egyptian astronomy, as they seem unable to give credit to the Egyptians for anything, even when the evidence from Egypt is earlier than that from anywhere else. This is why I started the section as inaccurate and outdated, because it is.

76.99.117.171 (talk) 21:10, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

• The civil calendars used in Sumer (Mesopotamia) in the 3rd millenium BC identified 12 lunar months per year with the months named after the 12 zodiacal constellations in the correct order and month placement as the modern passage of the sun through the zodiacal signs. I don't have a book reference handy but if anyone is interested i will dig down into my research papers to find it.

• there seems to be confusion about what is and is not astrology, astronomy and time keeping. Astrology is the correlation of astronomical phenomena with terrestial events related to a person, nation or world and does not need a horoscope to do this. For example no horoscope is involved with the astrological ages or the predictions of mundane astrologers based on eclipses, slow moving planets, lunation cycles etc. To be astrology the technique must have some predictability element included. All astrology before about 500 BC excluded horoscopes as we know them. Horoscopic astrology is just one branch of astrology. This topic should not be defining what is or is not astrology, you should refer to the Astrology topic for the definition and debate the nature of astrology there.

• the way to deal with different points of views in the area of the history of astrology is to note what is ambiguous or unclear and what has consensus or widespread support. Ideas from more than one source but not attaining concensus or majority point of view can be classified as a minority point of view. Individual points of views with only one source should be considered a fringe idea. The majority of resources of this topic should be devoted to the consensus and majority point of view. Minority points of view should be mentioned but fringe ideas should be isolated into a fringe theory section. I have recently adopted this approach to the Astrological Ages topic and it has helped tremendously in sorting out claims, counter claims and the myriad fringe ideas. However even fringe ideas need a book reference. Minority ideas would need book references from three or more different sources to rate as a minority idea. Majority ideas would have numerous book references from many sources probably over a reasonable period of time. Consensus ideas are basically undisputed or so strong that a whacko fringe theorist does not detract from the consensus view. I have used this approach in the Astrological Ages topic and it may solve some of your problems here. I do not specialise in the history of astrology in my research, but because I have been researching the Astrological Ages for over 20 years, I have come across a lot of archeoastronomy, archeoastrology and ancient astrology facts and information. In general disputed material should be moved down the totem pole in both space allocated and relevance to the topic history of Astrology

Terry MacKinnell (talk) 04:12, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

• The ancient Egyptian calendar dates back to at least 3000 B.C. if not prior. Therefore, it is an omission to speak of calendars and stellar observations and not to mention Egypt, as the evidence shows the Egyptian calendars to be among the oldest.

• The point I am making is that there was no Astrology as we know it today in 2,000 B.C. However, the elements of what would later become astrology were found in various places. And the earliest examples of a constellation is not found in Mesopotamia, it is found in Egypt. And the earliest examples of hour charts, with constellations and planets is in Egypt as well, not in Mesopotamia. Horo-scope means hour chart, not predictions, which is intended to show that the modern horoscope developed from early hour charts, which themselves were based on astronomical observation.

• I understand what you mean about consensus, but facts are facts and stand on their own. Egypt has some of the earliest examples of calendars and constellations anywhere on earth as well as some of the oldest cosmological and symbolic associations between time keeping, child birth and the stars. Sothis, Sopdet, Hathor, Mesketiu and many other deities from the very old kingdom have stellar aspects and also have an association with child birth. Again, these are facts that many scholars have already documented and published. And finally, the modern system of astrology was developed in Egypt, which means many of these traditions were directly ancestral to the modern practice of Astrology and not simply imports from Mesopotamia.

Examples of modern horoscopes showing astrological houses in a wheel chart. http://lessons.astrology.com/course/show/Beginners-Astrology/513-The-Wheel-of-Houses

Site showing the ceiling from the tomb of senenmut, with imagery that is also found in the later ceiling of Denderah, with Greek, Egyptian and Babylonian constellations superimposed on each other in a circular wheel, which itself is also an evolution from the imagery of the wheels on the ceiling of Senenmut's tomb. http://www.world-mysteries.com/alignments/mpl_al1.htm

There were no other circular zodiacs anywhere else on earth at this time.

Another site showing examples of constellations from Senenmut's tomb, which are also found on the Denderah zodiac. However, these are not the oldest examples of constellations in existence. The oldest are found in the coffin lids of the middle kingdom, which gave rise to the imagery on Senenmut's tomb.

http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/~gtosiris/page11-19.html

All of these are verified and documented facts and need no consensus.

Big-dynamo (talk) 12:14, 5 May 2008 (UTC)