Talk:History of Wales

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Please be aware that the Welsh were part of the original "Britons" They were called "Britons" before and after the Romans left in AD 408, although officially Britain was still part of the Empire until AD 410, when the rescript of Honourius gave the Britons their independence. Also be aware that the term 'Welsh' was given to the Britons by the invading Angles,Saxons and Jutes from Germany(that is the English) ..it means foreigner or alien in German.."England" was never mentioned(named) until the 8th century(AD).

can you tell me who "they" were that called them "Britons"? As this is an English word, and the English called them "Welsh" and not "Britons" how can this word have been used. Was this term used by the Romans or does the word Briton derive from an earlier Celtic word? When did the Welsh start to refer to themselves as cymry and Wales as cymru? --Cap 16:18, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

We cannot identify the two terms so readily. The Britons hadn't spread completely through the island of Great Britain by the time the Scots arrived; the Picts appear not to have been Brythonic Celts, from what little we know of them (including place names - Brythonic ones go past Galloway, but don't reach all Scotland; names like Pitlochrie appear to be Pictish, according to some). PML.

Christianity flourished in Britian('Wales') just 20 years after the Christ was crucified.. Caracturus(Caradoc in Latin)and his father "Bran" brought it to the Isles of Britain during and after the "imprisonment" of the father Bran. See Timothy(2)4.21..which is a letter from the apostle Paul to Timothy...Linus and Claudia are Caradoc's son and daughter resp. and Pudens is Claudia's husband...a Roman officer....

Just 100 years later the British King 'Lucius' declared Britain/Wales to be "Christian" ..The first Christian nation on the face of the earth.

Further remember that the Scots were originally an Irish invading tribe called the "Scotti"...also remember that it was Wales(Britain) that provided the Irish with St Patrick..He was born just 40 miles north-east of where David(St David)was born on the south western coast of Wales.

That's not established. He may have been born in what is now Cornwall, and he may not have been of 100% Brythonic ancestry. PML.

PML Your proof of the "may"'s please.... please 'establish'.. troedyrhiw

That is to misunderstand. The whole point about "not established" and "may" is that we do not have certain knowledge on the point - to ask for "proof" is to ask for something stronger than was asserted. I am citing things I recalled from somewhere, but even if I had the references ready and to hand that wouldn't "prove" their content - the point I was making was that there was still an open question. For what it's worth, as a question of identity "Cornish" is as much "Welsh" in that era from the cultural points that were raised. It was merely a comment on the specific geography. PML.
One of the many problems with the past is that we try to use words with a modern meaning to describe things, peoples and places in the past. For example the use of the word Celt to describe Wales, Ireland, Scotland and Cornwall. The problem here is that Celt is a word used by the Greeks to describe Gauls who were the other side of the Alps. Certainly the people inhabiting the islands did not use the word Celt. Indeed it is unlikely that they would have seen themselves as being the same peoples as the Gauls in France, or "Celts" further afield. We use the term Celt, because of writings from the 18th and 19th centuries, when academics worked out that there were similarities in language and culture of continental Gaul, the inhabitants of pre Roman Britain, and Ireland. And thats why we use the term. What it certainly doesn't mean is that the peoples of this Ireland thought of themselves as "one people" or that they described themselves as Celts.

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[edit] Angles and Saxons conquered the "whole" of England

I find this statement rather amusing. How could they not conquer the whole of England? They conquered part of the island of Britain which became England, as England only came into being because of this conquest. If they had conquered a smaller area than that is the area that would have become known as England! (though to be fair I can see that what is meant is that the Angles and Saxons conquered what is now England and were unable to conquer what is now called Wales/Cymru) --Cap 16:34, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The Anglo-Saxon invasion of England was not as straightforward as you may think. Even the very nature of the invasion is hotly disputed: i.e. was this an invasion of many people, pushing out or displacing the ex Romano-British Britons, or was this an influx of aristocratic warriors who took over the upper echelons of society. Certainly the history of the invasions show that many "British" Kingdoms survived for considerable periods (e.g. Elmet and Lindsey). Other areas such as Cornwall (kernow) seemed to escape invasion. Other areas, such as south and east Scotland were captured by the Angles, yet they today form part of Scotland. Essentially the history of these Islands is very complex, and the more you study it, the more complex it becomes. --Dumbo1 16:31, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Early History

The article starts with the Roman invasion. Can someone fill in please with the archaeology and prehistory of Wales

[edit] Wikipedia:Welsh Wikipedians' notice board

I've created a fairly simple Wikipedia:Welsh Wikipedians' notice board (shortcut WP:WWNB) to try to get things started. Please have a look and consider signing on, adding it to your watchlist and helping to make sure any users with an interest in the subject know about it. Also please feel free to add things and to change anything you feel needs changing – I'm not under the impression that I own it! Rhion 20:18, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Llywelyn the Great

I have put the Llywelyn the Great article up for Peer review. Any comments welcome. Rhion 16:49, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] human antiquity

from the article: "the earliest known human remains discovered in modern-day Wales is a human tooth, found in a cave in the valley of the River Elwy in north Wales, whose owner lived about 250,000 years ago in the Lower Palaeolithic period". 250,000 years ago? according to the "evolution" section in the human article "Anatomically modern humans appear in the fossil record in Africa about 130,000 years ago." no matter what book it's from i do not believe that humans were in wales 250kya. though this link claims that neanderthals were in wales "between 60,000 and 40,000 years ago." i believe the claim that humans were in wales 250kya is absurd for many reasons. not only does this contradict the examples given but it also a date close to the estimated emergence of Homo Sapiens Sapiens itself. it should be removed. seeing as that i do not have the book to refrence i would appreciate it if someone could double check it. though i am tempted to remove it and probably will. --Tainter 02:57, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map accuracy

An email was sent to the OTRS team a short while ago, expressing concern about the accuracy of the maps in this article. The email is copied below, as to not confuse the original meaning.

The maps you are using to highlight Welsh History are very inaccurate. For example, in the years to AD410 you have an outline of Wales as it currently stands. Just to give you a clue, even as late as AD577, Wales included what is now Cornwall, Devon, Dorset, Somerset, Herefordshire, Gloucestershire, parts of Shropshire, Cheshire and Cumbria.

Given I know absolutely nothing about Welsh history, I will defer to those who do to investigate whether the emailer was correct. Cheers, Daniel Bryant

[edit] Timelines history of British Isles

I've created a timeline template of the History of the British Isles. My plan is to put it into that article, like the timelines of Irish State in the Irish states since 1171 article. I'm sure there plenty of mistakes, although I've deliberately left out some states/people for simplicity's sake. The "events" I've added are also obviously "Hiberno-centric", so would like the imput of other's to settle what other events should to be added. General comments are also welcome. Since the table is fairly complicated, if people want leave suggestions for events and things they would like changed on the templates talk page, I'll add them. --sony-youthpléigh 23:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Map accuracy

I wish to express my concerns at the accuracy of the maps used. They provide a poor picture of Wales/Britain for the particular eras mentioned. There are plenty of resources on Wiki which would suffice and provide a clearer and more accurate picture historically of the British Isles.

[edit] De-annexation from England?

『Wales was officially de-annexed from England within the United Kingdom in 1955, with the term "England" being replaced with "England and Wales", and Cardiff was proclaimed as the capital of Wales.』
― from the current version of the article (however, 「officially de-annexed」 in the quotated sentences was underlined by me).

Is this certain and clear? ― 韓斌/Yes0song (談笑 筆跡 다지모) 16:13, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Maps & Historical Accuracy

The maps used for the history of Wales are a complete nonsense and should be removed as soon as possible and replaced with something else. A previous message has suggested there are plenty of resources on Wikipedia. This is indeed true with many references. Why show a map from circa 500AD outlining Britain at the time of the Battle of Badon on Wiki, which apart from a mistake as far as the Low Countries are concerned is fairly accurate, and then another which is nonsense on another page. If you're going to put the page forward as a history of Wales it would help to get as much right as possible especially when it's been brought to the attention of everyone on the talk page more than once

[edit] Map accuracy

Interestingly enough, there are much better maps of Britain and the British on pages referring to England and the English! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.188.154.254 (talk) 07:06, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Medieval Kingdoms

A poor description of the kingdoms at the time period and the same old map as used for the Welsh Tribes at the time of the Roman conquest! Where are the celtic kingdoms of Cornwall, Rhedeg, Elmet, etc in the details. Just because they're not within the present Welsh boundaries is no excuse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.188.154.254 (talk) 08:20, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

When the Celtic west still constituted a continuous geographical area, the words "Wales" and "Welsh" (and for that matter Cymru and Cymraeg) had yet to be coined. There is therefore absolutely no justification for including places such as Cornwall, Rhedeg, Elmet, etc in an article specifically referring to Wales. . . .LinguisticDemographer 17:27, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Then are we talking about Wales or the Celts here. If we are talking about Wales/Cymru then you are correct at the time in question the words had yet to be coined so why show Wales/Cymru when it didn't really exist in that context and mislead everyone into thinking the borders have been unmoved for thousands of years. It's complete nonsense to show a map of modern day Wales and put in tribes and kingdoms from hundreds and even thousands of years ago. You must also remember that for a time the northern celtic kingdoms constituted north Wales and Cornwall west Wales according to many maps with the Welsh shown as occupying a large part of the west of the British Isles. There are many examples in "commons". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.188.154.254 (talk) 07:01, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History of the Jews in Wales

If anyone can help, still needed is an article about the History of the Jews in Wales to complete the History of the Jews in Europe. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 12:56, 5 December 2007 (UTC)