Talk:History of Transnistria/Archive 1

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Date of Romanian control

the image caption here says the date that transnistria was annexed by romania was August 19, 1941, but this article [1] says that it was October 8, 1941 --Astrokey44 04:12, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Transnistria was never formally annexed by Romania (in the sense that there was never a formal act of annexation or attempt to incorporate it into a Greater Romania.) The word "annexation" and its derivatives should be changed as it has a legal connoctation which doesn't fit in this case. For the Romanians during World War II, Transnistria served the double purpose of killing fields, primarily for Jews, and also a buffer against the Soviets.
As regards the actual date, since there was never a formal annexation, it is hard to speak of a precise date. The taking of Transnistria was a gradual affair in late summer of 1941; starting with Tiraspol. Most of the advances took place during August. The correct quote would be: "At the end of summer 1941 Transnistria came under Romanian control".
Source: Alexander Dallin, Odessa, 1941-1944: "A Case Study of Soviet Territory under Foreign Rule", rev. ed. (published Iasi: Center for Romanian Studies, 1998), page 59. - Mauco 06:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

In regards to the "biased info"

The source was written by a Norwegian guy, how does that make it biased? If it was written by some Ukranian, then I would understand. But please, don't delete sourced material. —Khoikhoi 16:22, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

It`s written in 1992, in full war of Transnistria, by a Norwegian, and a Russian dude, who`se basically an anonymous historian wannabe. The work doesn`t provide any sources for the claims (read the content, it so biased that they even say that Bessarabia, not Transnistria, was inhabited by Slavs too) and it`s causing contradiction with the rest of what`s sayd in the article. It`s bassicaly an amatorial subjective view. When tens of sources (even the Russian censuses) say that as early as the 16th century, the land between the Dniester and Southern Bug (not only Trasndiester) were inhabited primarily by Romanians and Tatars, and also by Turks, Armenians, Greeks, and other (and not mention of any Russia or Ukrainian), how can you totally dismiss that? When on the walls of citadels of cities like Otchkov, Cetatea Alba and others trones the coat of arms of Moldavia from as early as the 14th century, when Italian travelers Niccolo Barsi da Luca and Niccolo Barsi say in the 16th century that the land is inhabited mainly by Moldavians, when Gianni Lorenzo D’Anania and Giovani Botero in their cartographic works (Relazzioni universali” (1596 Venetia) describes most of the cities (Ochackov for example) as being Moldavian, when in 1709 Daniel Krmannhow, a member of kings Charles XII of Sweden retinue, when retreated with the swedish king and his army, aslo says that the land is inhabited by Romanians, how can this dude nobody has ever heard of, before and after his masterpiece, say such things, based on nothing greier 16:43, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Kolstoe is one of the most frequently cited scholars on Moldova-Transnistrian issues, and his research is generally considered unbiased (by both sides). This is rare in debates over contemporary Transnistria where one paper from one side is generally not accepted by the other side. Kolstoe's research has been published by official mediators like OSCE. It is the first time that I have seen anyone contest his findings...
Charles King, author of "The Moldovans" (currently the most authorative review of Moldavian history in English) backs up what Kolstoe says. He adds that the region was a traditional borderland, with not just Moldavians and Ukrainians but an influx of many other nationalities as well. In fact, before the Romanian invasion in World War II, it was heavily Jewish. For instance, more than 1/4th of Tiraspol's population was Jewish. This percentage only changed with the systematic extermination of Jews by Romania in collaboration with its wartime ally; Nazi Germany.
I am including this in the discussion to make the point that 1) Transnistria has always been heterogeneous, 2) that the relative proportions of the various ethnic groups have always been fluid, and 3) that the no single ethnic group has ever had a monopoly claim on the territory. Moldavians have certainly always played a role in Transnistria's history, alongside other ethnic groups, but not to the point of excluding them or somehow validating the argument put forward by radicals that the land is part of Moldavia and was somehow taken from Moldavia from "invading foreigners". That would be a revisionism which does not match the historical facts. - Mauco 17:13, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Completely off the point! greier 10:55, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes ... and no. I made the point, knowing that the last half was unrelated. But I also explained why, and the reason why is absolutely related to where you are coming from, Greir. Reading your edit history, I can see that you are pushing a NPOV fork of the typical advocate of Greater Romania. There is nothing wrong with that, and you are certainly entitled to your viewpoint, but just not on Wikipedia. You have had troubles for that reason on other edits, and it is sad that you are now taking this POV to the History of Wikipedia. I made my point on the Jews above to give you the hint, in a subtle way, that since no single ethnic group has ever had a monopoly claim on the territory, that includes Romanians too. Romania was involved in some of the worst ethnic cleansing precisely in Transnistria, but they never accomplished making the region majority-Romanian (or majority Moldavian, if you prefer that term). Please do rewrite history to make the facts fit your point of view, and please do not cast doubt on the impartiality of Pal Kolstoe from Oslo University in Norway and Charles King from the Hoover Institute in the United States. If they are good enough for OSCE then they are certainly good enough for us. - Mauco 13:30, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
The removal of that part has nothing to do with any jews, Greater Romania, or ethnic cleaning. The fact is that today, only in Transnistria (I don`t want to speak now about Ukranie) there is a population of 40% Moldavians, native to the area, and all sources say that in the past the population, indeed mixed, had as natives Moldavians, Tatars, and others. Never, until the Soviet Union, had the Russians and Ukrainians been the majoritary there. It`s gettig ridiculous: has it now turned into a battle between slavs and nonslavs? Pal Kolstoe should add references to his claims if he wants to be taken serious. Most scholary works have at the bottom a list of references, linked to every paragraph from the article... greier 13:41, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I am not a slav, so this is not "a battle between slavs and nonslavs". Nor shall I defend Kolstoe, other than what I have stated above: He is one of the most cited sources, his information is backed up by other Western historians also (among others Charles King). If you read their books, you will see that they are certainly not biased in favor of Transnistria. I would like the info on Ukrainian peasants to remain, please, until Western historians agree otherwise (in published materials). We should try not to rely solely on the writings of Romanian historians or purveyors of a Greater Romania POV. - Mauco 14:54, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I see you keep mentioning Greater Romania. Honestly, I don`t see the point for relating it to the paragraph we`re disputing, nor (as I presume you want/assume) has anything to do with me and my edits. greier 15:09, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
And honestly, the part about the history of the region is sooooo amatorial, so full of errors, that it looks like it`s made by a highschool kid. Want to continue to discuss about the history of the area? greier 13:48, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
The article was created by simply moving the history subsection from the main Transnistria article where it was created with the collaboration of roughly a dozen active editors over a period of two years. Contrary to other parts of that article, it was never a major source of edit wars. - Mauco 14:54, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
I was talking about the history part from Kolstoes article. Man, if Kolstoe is an expert in Transnistria, than I am a genius!!!! The dude is tataly wasted!!! How could he put that shit (the history part) in his article??? God, looks like it`s made by a kid... greier 15:19, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
And if you consider that a scholary work, than you too are wasted. It`s so shitty... Paragraph by paragraph... is pure shit, unworthy of such waste of time... greier 15:25, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Kolstoe from Oslo is not the only source on how Ukrainians outnumbered Moldovans in the 18th century, and in fact even more recently too. Another quote from http://ivantoc.org/moldova.htm which refers to the 1920's: "only some 30 percent of them were Romanians." - Mauco 21:30, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Tipic misleading comment, I recognize the style of Nikolai Babilunga, a falsifier of history from Tiraspol. 30% was the proportion of Romanians in the entire former teritorry of Moldavian ASSR. Actual Transnistria include only 6 of the former rayons of MASSR, other 8 rayons (with a bigger proportion of Slavs) are now in Ukraine. Kolstoe wrote about the entire teritorry between Dniester and Bug, not only about the sliver of land on the left bank of Dniester which is today Transnistria. So, you can have a Slav majority in the entire Dniester-Bug teritorry, but a Romanian majority in the 6 rayons of today Transnistria (and I believe this was the truth).--MariusM 22:11, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
No, this is not from Nikolai Babilunga. The quote is from a Romanian historian: Nicholas Dima. His history of Moldova was published in 1991 by East European Monographs, Boulder, as part of an imprint by Columbia University Press, New York. Now, if you have any sources which state that there was ever a Romanian majority in what is today Transnistria, please post them here. We have several sources that say the opposite (that Romanians were always a minority) and so far none, that I know of, which succesfully demonstrate that there was ever a Romanian majority for the area as whole. - Mauco 07:25, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
I quote Dima's words: "The new Moldavian autonomous republic was formed in southwest Ukraine along the Dnestr and bordering Romania. Its surface area was 8,300 square kilometers and its population over 500,000 people, but only some 30 percent of them were Romanians". Is obviously he is reffering at entire MASSR, not at present day Transnistria, which is less than half of former MASSR but include Bender which was not part of MASSR. I didn't confuse Babilunga with Dima, I remarked the syle of comparing apples with oranges, which is one of Babilunga caracteristics, is used also by you.--MariusM 10:43, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
This is a personal attack on my record as a researcher. Please back this up with DIFF's if you want anyone to take your accusations seriously, or else please avoid making personal attacks in the future. - Mauco 17:48, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
I would not call it personal attack but criticism on your edits (but if you like Babilunga, you can consider my words as favourable). For example, in this edit you compared apples with oranges. Both your sources (Kolstoe and ivantoc.org) are reffering to a bigger teritorry than today Transnistria when saying that Ukrainians outnumbered Moldovans. You misused their words in order to pretend that in today Transnistria Slavs were a majority. For a researcher, misusing the sources is not a good thing, but I doubt you are a real researcher.--MariusM 21:47, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
In answer to "You misused their words in order to pretend that in today Transnistria Slavs were a majority" I would merely say, to keep the polemic to a minimum, that there is absolutely no need to pretend that in today, in Transnistria, the Slavs represent an absolutely majority. They do, and that is a fact. No pretending is needed. - Mauco 23:18, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
A new misused of my words. We are talking about "History of Transnistria" and about population before 1792 (Russian conquest). Through "Today Transnistria" I meant the teritorry of actual secessionist region of Moldova: rayons of Camenca, Rîbniţa, Dubăsari, Grigoriopol, Slobozia, cities of Tiraspol and Tighina. I was pointing to the fact that in this region Moldovans were a majority in 18th century, and Kolstoe don't deny it, as he reffered to a broader region (same with Dima). I was using past tense. Today, in the same region, Moldovans have a plurality, while Ukrainians and Russians, if counted together, are a small majority as result of colonisation done in Soviet period. They are in majority at cities (where population came from other part of the Soviet Union, is not a "historical" population), while in the rural area Moldovans are a majority.--MariusM 23:37, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
This sounds like a sweeping generalization. Before we just take your word for it, let me ask: Do you have a real source to backup the claim that Moldovans form a majority outside the cities? Can we see this source and review the numbers? (Not, please, another propaganda source published in Chisinau at the height of war, in order to convince people that this is old Moldovan land). - Mauco 23:43, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
My data regarding 1989 census results are from Nedelciuc book published in 1992. It shows total population 39,9% Moldovans, 28,3% Ukrainians and 25,4% Russians for mostly left bank rayons. For rural areas data are 60% Moldovans, 22% Ukrainians and 12,6% Russians. In urban area data are 25,6% Moldovans, 32,7% Ukrainians and 34,6% Russians. Not included in above are data for Tighina: 29,9% Moldovans, 18,2% Ukrainians and 41,9% Russians. I am not aware of anybody doubting those data. Same data are in Wikipedia at 1989 Census in Transnistria and it was you who wrote that article (I couldn't make any correction to it, one of the moments I totally agreed with you)--MariusM 23:56, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Later edit: of course you were wrong on that article too, and I should correct you, as you didn't include data for Tighina. I'm losing so much time at Wikipedia correcting Mauco!--MariusM 00:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
None of this shows any distinction between the "historical" population of Moldovans (as you would have it) and that Slavs, as a majority, are newcomers to the area (post-1920 "colonisation", to quote you). If you have any sources for this truly exceptional claim, please post them. Surely you are aware by now that historically, Transnistria was never part of Moldova prior to 1940. - Mauco 00:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
You asked me to prove that "the claim that Moldovans form a majority outside the cities". As I proved that claim, you changed your demand, you ask to prove that Slavs, as a majority, are post-1920 colonisation. You doubt that cities are growing through attracting population from other region? This is not an exceptional claim, is a worldwide trend, especially when ethnic composition in cities is different than in neighbouring area. If Transnistria was not part of Moldova, that mean no Moldovan government organised colonisation in that region, the presence of Moldovans is a natural one. You confuse administrative borders with ethnic borders.--MariusM 00:24, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
No, not at all. I am just curious as to where you get the idea that Slavs arrived after 1920 (your "Soviet colonisation", as you call it) and where you get the idea that only Moldovans inhabited the area before that time (your "historical" population, as you call it). You don't even have to distinguish between countryside and cities. Population density in Transnistria is very high, so you may treat the area as a whole if that will make it easier to find your data. It is quite a unique and exceptional claim for anyone who knows about Transnistria. - Mauco 00:35, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Again you put in my mouth words I didn't use. I didn't say that Slavs arrived after 1920, I am sure they arrived in 1792 when Russian conquest was made. However, during Soviet period when industrialisation was done, Slav proportion in Transnistria's population increased most.--MariusM 00:48, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Friendly advice: You ought to get some sleep, buddy. Just an hour ago, you said: "Today, in the same region, Moldovans have a plurality, while Ukrainians and Russians, if counted together, are a small majority as result of colonisation done in Soviet period. They are in majority at cities (where population came from other part of the Soviet Union, is not a "historical" population), while in the rural area Moldovans are a majority". These are your words.
You refer to "Today". That is now, i.e. 2006. Moldovans make up 31.9%. Slavs make up 59.2%. Hardly a "small majority", but I will let that distortion pass. What I can not refrain to comment on, however, is your claim that this majority resulted from " colonisation done in Soviet period" (in other words, after 1920 ... Or did Soviets exist in 1792?).
You say that the Slav population "is not a "historical" population", inferring by comparison that the Moldovans are the rightful owners of Transnistria, i.e. the "historical" population to use your words. Again, I am very curious as to where you get those ideas. They are very exceptional claims, as you surely must know. Sources, please, for the following:
  • Slav majority came after 1920, as a result of Soviet colonisation.
  • Moldovans are the "historical" population. - Mauco 00:57, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
Those are not exceptional claims. Greier already gave the refference: Charles Upson Clark: “Russia and Roumania on the Black Sea”: “Frequent mention has been made of the Moldavian Soviet Republic. It is not generally known that the lower Dniester is an almost purely Roumanian stream. The villages along its left bank, from Movilau down to Ovidiopol, opposite Akkerman, are as Moldavian as those on the Bessarabian bank. And this Moldavian peasantry stretches as far east as the Bug, beyond Elisavetgrad, and down to within a few miles of Odessa (see Draghicesco). This is due to a very early immigration of Roumanian shepherds and traders along the streams of the black-earth district east of the Dniester-so early that we find here some Roumanian place-names on the Reichersdorf map of 1541. Further extensive colonization took place in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, the Polish princes of Podolia encouraging the creation of large farms by Moldavian boyars; and in the eighteenth century, Russian generals took back with them from their campaigns against the Turks, enormous numbers of Roumanian peasants. In 1739, Gen. Munnich carried back with him 100,000 Roumanian peasants, according to the memoirs of Trenck, his companion; and_ in 1792, another great immigration took place. As a result, it is reckoned that there are probably half a million Roumanian peasants in Russia east of the Dniester.” Ch. XXIX. Upson Clark was reffering at actual Transnistria, not at the entire Dniester-Bug teritorry as Kolstoe.--MariusM 00:15, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
This text does not demonstrate that a Slav majority only came after 1920, as a result of Soviet colonisation. As for the "historical" population, you are leaving out the preceeding nine hundred years: Don't forget that the early East Slavs came to the area in 600 AD, far earlier than any Romanians. This Slav heritage was reinforced with one thousand years of almost uninterrupted Slavic rule: Kievan Rus rule (Slavic), the 80-some years of Halych-Volhynia rule (Slavic), Polish rule (Slavic) and rule under Imperial Russia (Slavic). Historically, Moldavia or Romania never ruled Transnistria. Even while in the MSSR, which nominally Moldovan, the Soviet Union (Slavic ruled) was firmly in charge, like it or not. MSSR (taking its orders from Moscow) was never an independent country, as you well know. - Mauco 01:04, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Source claim that lower Dniester is an almost purely Roumanian stream. When was this? Not today, as we know that in Tiraspol, Rîbniţa, Tighina is a Slav majority. It was in the past and situation change in time, as result of Russian political domination. I am sure that Soviet censuses prove my point, but I don't have the data. I am talking about the census results in actual Transnistria teritory (the strip on left bank of Dniester) not about the entire Dniester-Bug teritory.--MariusM 01:14, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Now we are closer to reaching agreement (I hope). Fact: This is a classic border area. Historically, and even today, with the latest census listing 35 or 36 different nationalities. Now, in a classic border area, you have inflows of different ethnic groups. Fact: Over centuries, in such an area, it can be expected that you have ebbs and flows of who is the majority or the correlations between the individual minorities. This happened even in the past one hundred years. There is no reason to be surprised at why it also happened earlier. It is even more true when the 'ownership' of the area changes hands, as happened over and over again in the case of Transnistria. At one point, the population of area was completely Slav. Then - if we believe Upson Clark - at a later time in history, it became an "almost purely Roumanian stream". Yet, this does still not support any claim that the "historical" population was Romanian. History did not start in 1541 or in 1739. The land was populated before then, in fact a thousand years earlier as many sources on this page show. And not by Romanians. - Mauco 01:30, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
You don't have any sources that "At one point, the population of area was completely Slav". Even if you disregard Magocsi and believe that Kievan Rus ruled the area, that is no indication that population was completely Slav. When did Moldovans replace the Slavs as we don't have data about a war between Moldovans and Slavs. The fact that area was not under Moldovan political domination exclude any forced replacement of Slavs by Moldovans in this area. Between cossacks were many ethnic Moldovans, I already gave the example of Dănilă Apostol. In middle ages, Slavonic was the prestige language used in church and administration also by Romanians, Slavs and Romanians were both Orthodox, I would say that is possible that some Romanians accepted at that time the rule of Kievan Rus. In Romanian language words like "voievod" (king), "boyar" (noble), "cneaz" (ruler) are of Slav origin. Some historians consider this as an indication that Slavs conquered the Romanians and, at the begining, the upper class of Romanians was composed by ethnic Slavs, who latter were assimilated (as French Normands were assimilated by Anglo-Saxons or Turkic Bulgarians were assimilated by Slav Bulgarians). First "official language" of Romanian kingdoms (both Moldavia and Walachia) was Slavonic, but population was Romanian.--MariusM 01:51, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Short and to the point: Who lived in Transnistria around 600 AD, or even 1000 AD, besides Slavs? No one. - Mauco 02:28, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Romanians lives there, besides migratory tribes as petchenegs, cumans etc.--MariusM 14:50, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Romanians, really? How so? Not in this early time period, sorry. One of the best sources, incidentally, is Charles Upson Clark who vividly documents the expansion and immigration of Romanians into Transnsnistria. He confirms, on page after page, that they are newcomers in comparison to the earlier Slav population. - Mauco 04:57, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Quote, please.--MariusM 08:59, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
You haven't even read this Upson Clark book, have you? Well, let me help you: All chapters and illustrations can be accessed from the University of Washington, here - Mauco 17:18, 1 November 2006 (UTC)