Talk:History of Sumer

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Contents

[edit] Suggested Changes

This section needs to adopt the accepted periodisation into Early Dynastic I, II and III, and explain the differences and developments over these periods. For example, walled cities appear to have developed only towards the end of the Early Dynastic II period, with the construction of the walls of Uruk - attributed to Enmerkar.

John D. Croft 22:31, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure this can be done without deleting or suppressing any existing information. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 23:22, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2008

User Sumerophile is living up to his reputation for imposing his own idiosyncracies on articles over the guidelines and other editors... There are several problems with his version but he is resisting my attempts to correct them:

1) The standard guideline on Wikipedia is to bypass redirects and link directly to the articles, not to redirects of alternate spellings. If you feel the Oxford spellings are the only proper ones, you can propose moves on the relevant pages. Otherwise, the only way according to guidelines to make those spellings show up here is to use a pipe. If you don't know what "bypass" and "pipe" means I will try to find the relevant guidelines for you and post links to them.

2) Adding a bunch of pictures to sections that consist only of a "see main article" totally messes up the appearance of the article as well as the edit links, it becomes difficult to hunt for the appropriate edit link. If the sections are to be expanded, try adding the pictures afterwards.

3) I dispute your changes to the Aratta information, this is not the place to fork your POV in contradiction to the Aratta article.

4) What is the objection to linking the Sumerian flood account to Deluge (mythology)? I take it you have reached the conclusion that Aratta is unhistorical, while the Ziusudra epic is historical? (Correct me if I am wrong or assuming too much.) Even if your conclusion is right, we have to neutrally reflect the various opinions in reliable, published sources on all sides, not push our personal conclusions and dismiss those sources that disagree with those conclusions. There is no consensus that Aratta is unhistorical and / or Ziusudra is historical. The evidence for Aratta is just as strong as that of any other country only mentioned in Sumerian texts and maps. Dilmun, etc. are also only known in Sumerian texts and maps, but scholars don't assume it didn't exist, and have felt free to conjecture about its historical location. Same with Aratta. Don't suppress these scholars because you don't agree with them. I myself disagree with several of them but as I understand the neutrality policy, we are supposed to keep out our own opinions as much as possible and faithfully report what all the published opinions are.

Normally whenever changes are disputed, what we do is discuss them on the talkpage and try to work out a compromise or consensus with other concerned editors, so in the meantime I will refrain from further edit warring or reverting until these issues are resolved, hopefully to everyone's satistfaction. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 17:45, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


1) I use the spelling I know; Oxford is a good standard source, and it links to the correct article. You can add pipes to that if you wish, rather than calling another editor names.

2) Complete the sections instead of removing pictures.

3-4) Yes, you are assuming too much. Administrator User:Dbachmann can tell you that I know there is no historic evidence for the Sumerian flood allegory. Nor is Aratta as yet attested. You have now edited the article to make the flood allegory historical, and removed mention of Aratta not being attested. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sumerophile (talk • contribs) 18:56, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Sumerophile (talk) 18:41, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

1) The decision to use Oxford spelling as our standard seems to be unilateral on your part; otherwise the articles themselves would probably be located at those names. (If you want to move them, please propose this on their talkpages first as it could be potentially disruptive to move them without first allowing for discussion or consensus). Bypassing redirects with a direct link to the actual article is so standard here, that we even have robots that will come along and change all the links back to the article names, so pointing them to redirects is futile. Learn how wikipedia works and use a pipe instead of expecting other editors to continually clean up behind you.

2) As I mentioned, adding the pics BEFORE the sections are expanded creates issues with the page and the edit links; but you did not address this matter in your reply other than to obstinately say "my way os right". I am curious to know what other editors might think about this matter.

3) Aratta is attested in Sumerian texts and maps, just like Dilmun is. Many prominent scholars have speculated on the historical location of both of these. Why suppress these scholars in the case of Aratta because of your personal theory? And again, I ask (to which you did not answer): "What is the objection to linking the Sumerian flood account to Deluge (mythology)?" Please help me understand why you object to this. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:53, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Er, my version says: According to the kinglist, the kingship was resumed at Kish following the Deluge.
Your version says: After a flood occurred in Sumer, kingship is said to have resumed at Kish.
Now which one of us is trying to "make the flood allegory historical"?? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 19:07, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Yours, I didn't link the king list to the Deluge (mythology). Sumerophile (talk) 19:35, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

1) There is no standard, but Oxford is a reputable reference, and just like US spelling, that's the spelling I know. Add pipes to my spelling if you wish.

2) You could add material youself, rather than complaining that there's something relevant there.

3) Yep, we know the name Aratta from Sumerian legend, and people speculate about what might be meant by it. The existence of Dilmun by contrast is attested by a great many records, seals and other archaeological artifacts. Stating that Aratta is as yet unattested is factual.

Sumerophile (talk) 19:35, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


Just because there's more evidence to suggest one does not negate the evidence for the other. Although a city in the southeast is attested to in many records, we don't know that settlement or region is dilmun, even if it uses the same name. Look at how much the Babylonians changed the meaning of Sumerian names, for example. There's no reason to negate theories about Aratta if you're going to speculate about Dilmun.It seems, Sumerophile, that your goal is often to change for the sake of making it the way you want it. NJMauthor (talk) 23:11, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


Who said evidence suggesting one thing negates anything else? I'm not even speculating about Dilmun - where is this comming from?? At least it's existance is attested, and what does "Babylonians changing the meaning of Sumerian words" have to do with it's existance, or location for that matter?

My "goal" is use facts, not speculation, which yes is the way it should be. WP:RS

Sumerophile (talk) 23:57, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

But Aratta IS attested - it is attested in Sumerian texts and maps. That is a far different thing from what you are saying, that it is "not attested". If you mean to say "not attested outside of Sumerian texts and maps", say that. And the same could be said for the name "Dilmun", I believe, not to mention Meluhha and other examples. Many prominent scholars have speculated on Aratta's hitoricity and location, not to exclude the most famous Sumerologist, the great Samuel Kramer, now you I or others may well disagree with Kramer et al., but we don't say we are smarter than he is therefore we don't need to mention his views.
Another issue is the subsection on the Akkadian Empire. For the entire existence of this article, a "see main also" has been sufficient. This is largely because Sumer and Akkad are conventionally treated as distinct entities. I would have preferred to see some discussion among multiple editors here, before expanding this section into yet another copy of the same dynastic list that is of limited value here. But if the consensus is to have all this in the Akkad subsection, I will abide by that. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 00:24, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Aratta is mentioned in Myth. Dilmun is attested through archaeological evidence: records, seals etc, which I mentioned above. "Aratta is as yet not attested through archaeological evidence".

The Akkadian empire should be summed up like the rest of the sections. A section should not be made just to have a redirect. This is part of Sumerian history. The table is to have information available until the narrative gets written. And it puts the pictures in place, which you've been complaining about. Sumerophile (talk) 00:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Question: Is the exact name "Dilmun" attested through archaeology outside of the Sumerian texts or maps that have been discovered? (although Sumerian texts are of course also "archaeological" in their own right) You speak of seals, but when I tried to examine this, all I was able to verify is that seals with the same pattern were found in both Indus Valley and in Bahrain. If the word "Dilmun" actually appears on any of these seals, it would be a different story that should remove any lingering doubt about Dilmun's existence and location. But how do we even know the name "Dilmun" outside of Sumerian literature? Where is this name specifically attested? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 00:55, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

This is not about the location of Dilmun. If you want to start arguing Dilmun, take it to the Dilmun page. Sumerophile (talk) 01:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, well the point is that the "archaeological attestation" for the name "Aratta" is equally as strong as that for Dilmun or Meluhha: These names AFAIK appear only in Mesopotamian cuneiform tablets, and we are certainly allowed to quote the numerous Sumerologists such as Samuel Kramer who have offered their views on their location. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 01:10, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Nor is this the place for Aratta agendas. Sumerophile (talk) 02:03, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

It appears that your arguement for archaeological evidence for Dilmun is also an agenda, being as there is none. NJMauthor (talk) 06:03, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

The only source or reference we have for the presumptuous statement "There is as yet no evidence for Aratta's existence" is User:Sumerophile. If Sumerophile feels this is so important to point out, he should be able to point to a minimum of ONE published source that has actually made such an explicit statement, to be able to include it. Otherwise, unreferenced statements may be tagged or removed as original research. User Sumerophile also dismisses and blanks out references to Samuel Kramer, because he apparently feels he is smarter than Kramer and that User:Sumerophile's own quirky, unpublished theories somehow trump anything Kramer may have written, to the point of not being allowed to even mention Kramer's views. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 14:19, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

You are creating arguments, Til Eulenspiegel. This is neither the Dilmun nor the Aratta article. Sumerophile (talk) 18:40, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Then remove data related to Aratta AND Dilmun. NJMauthor (talk) 00:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I didn't put them there; they were there before me. What I did was to give them NPOV wording, especially the pro-Ararat-theory Aratta:

Dilmun:

"The Sumerians claimed that their civilization had been brought, fully formed, to the city of Eridu (possibly from Dilmun, later identified with Bahrain) by their god Enki or by his advisor or Abgallu (from Ab=water, Gal=great, Lu=man), Adapa U-an (the Oannes of Berossus). This claim may be in part based upon fact, as Eridu was then on the coastline of the Persian Gulf, and was the oldest city of southern Mesopotamia."
-->
"The Sumerians claimed that their civilization had been brought, fully formed, to the city of Eridu by their god Enki or by his advisor (or Abgallu from Ab=water, Gal=great, Lu=man), Adapa U-an (the Oannes of Berossus). ... (footnote:)Some versions of Sumerian myths may also suggest Dilmun as a possible place of origin, although they may simply be refering to an idealized paradise. Most Sumerian mythology simply refers to the Mesopotamian region, suggesting their origins were there."

Aratta:

"Aratta, often considered an early form of the name Urartu (but speculated by some Iranian archaeologists to have been a reference to the newly-discovered Jiroft civilization although it cannot be reached by river from Sumer)"
(The original version was a pro-NW Iranian location[1]: "Aratta, thought by some to have been an early mention of Mount Ararat, but believed by most archaeologists to have been a nearby and still unknown Iranian kingdom", which was changed to the pro-Ararat location above [2] more than a year ago.)
-->
"There is as yet no evidence for Aratta's existence. Nevertheless, some Armenian archaeologists have speculated that Aratta is an early name for Urartu or Ararat although the area lacks the minerals associated with Aratta, and some Iranian archaeologists have speculated this to be the newly-discovered Jiroft civilization although it cannot be reached by river from Sumer." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sumerophile (talk • contribs) 01:05, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Our articles are supposed to be factually accurate. "Armenian archaeologists" is NOT factually accurate, because not all of the authors who have speculated this are Armenian, nor are they all archaeologists. Unless Merlin Stone, Ian Wilson, and David Rohl (just to name three such sources) are Armenian archaeologists, which would be news to me. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 01:13, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, no kidding, these claims are not all coming from archaeologists.
David Rohl is an Egyptologist. Merlin Stone is a sculptor and feminist historian. Neither are exactly mainstream. Having never heard of an Ian Wilson, I looked him up on amazon.com - is this the author of books like Before the Flood: The Biblical Flood as a Real Event and The After Death Experience: The Physics of the Non-Physical?? What the hey?
You also have nowhere cited these authors, so we don't know what they actually say about Aratta. Anybody can make offhand conjectures, but no reputable archaeologist makes claims about unattested places. WP:V WP:RS
Sumerophile (talk) 02:33, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
And we still are waiting for you to cite EVEN ONE 'reputable archaeologist' or even any kind of source at all, that backs up your own assertions about Aratta, but I'm not holding my breath. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 02:44, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

It's no assertion at all: There simply isn't any archaeological evidence at this point to attest Aratta's existance. Sumerophile (talk) 02:49, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

To back up that assertion, you need to find at least one published source that makes that very point. If it is as self-evident as you seem to feel, there will be some author somewhere who has noted as much. If there is not, you conducted your own original research to arrive at that unpublished conclusion and summary pronouncement. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 03:10, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of the Aratta = Urartu idea

The original scholar to identify Aratta and Urartu was, guess who, yes, that's right, none other than Samuel Noah Kramer himself, the eminent authority who first translated Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta in his 1952 monograph. In his stating that "Aratta" is the Sumerian equivalent of "Urartu", he was only the first of MANY authors (Armenian or otherwise) to do so.

If you actually bother to look up scholarly literature on the subject of Aratta, all you will find is speculations about its actual geographic location based on the actual geographic clues given in the epics. We have yet to see even ONE source backing up User:Sumerophile's OR assertion.

However, with an arrogance I have never seen here in 3 years of editing, Sumerophile will not admit Prof. Kramer's referenced view into this article, and insists on substituting his own unreferenced view in its place, refusing to cite it and even removing standard requests for cites. User Sumerophile, our articles are not supposed to contain our own personal opinions, they are supposed to contain references reflecting the same published opinions that anyone researching would find in the scholarly literature - EVEN IF YOU DO NOT 'LIKE' THEM. That's usually about the first thing one learns from editing Wikipedia for any length of time, but you still just do not seem to get it. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 02:11, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


Did Kramer really say that? Apparently this has this not been cited anywhere, while some very off-topic sources have been cited instead. And the next step of equating Urartu with Ararat, or the Biblical Mountains of Ararat for that matter, is also speculation, I should point out.

You are exactly right, location is all speculation.

Your persistant and repeated name-calling of editors who question your sources is uncivil. WP:Civility. Sumerophile (talk) 02:49, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

The only name I believe I have called you is Sumerophile... I apologise for any other names that might have slipped through, but I usually look over my edits before hitting send. I have shown you equal respect to what you have shown me by constantly reverting and refusing to listen to what I am trying to say. If I am not mistaken, this was one of the main reasons SN Kramer gave for placing "Aratta" near Lake Urmia in NW Iran, in the territory of later "Urartu", in his breakthrough 1952 monograph, Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta: a Sumerian Epic Tale of IRAQ and IRAN (hint hint: he was so assured of this, that he included these very geographic references in the title of the first ever English translation to be published...!) Even if this view had later been unanimously rejected, which it hasn't, it would still deserve mention out of historiographic interest. There have been many scholarly views published on the question, and it is hard to support suppressing all mention of those views you personally disagree with, as you determine. That attitude is enough to ruffle my feathers. I only want the article to accurately reflect the scholarly literature, with references, and have never once stated what my own theory on Aratta is, if any... I have never seen anyone even once trying to draw a link here with "Mountains of Ararat", that must be in your head what you are fighting against to accuse me of some kind of "agenda", but my only agenda is that we all leave our personal views and uncited opinions out as editors, and instead reflect what the actual, scholarly, published sources say. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 04:57, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Urartu was centered on lake Van in Anatolia, not Iran. Subsequent to this early translation, and his Urartu speculation, Kramer himself has since speculated Iran. And speculation it is.

Sumerophile (talk) 20:01, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, have you ever actually read Kramer? Just where have you been getting all of your knowledgeable "facts" that you continually grace us with anyway, I have yet to see you refer to a SINGLE source! If you read these things somewhere, we'd love to know where! The fact is that Kramer never changed his location of Aratta: He always placed it in NORTHWEST IRAN. Which is exactly where my edit said he placed it. Which is sourced to his 1952 monograph, "Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta: An Epic Tale of Iraq AND IRAN; his later 1963 words could also be added. Sure it's speculation, but it's also referenced, relevant, and nobody ever said it was anything other than speculation. How have I misquoted him? How hard-headed can you get when you don't have any references for your position, and the ones you keep removing, refute your unreferenced position? What more would it possibly take for you to get it? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 20:36, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

You stated above, that Kramer, in his early translation of the Enmerkar myth, said that Aratta is the Sumerian equivalent of Urartu, which was in Anatolia. I have not read this translation, and am taking your word for it. (My reference for translations of Sumerian materials is Oxford, which I highly recommend to anyone.) Sumerophile (talk) 21:26, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for "taking my word for it", but why then do you keep removing the easily-verifiable reference to Kramer's consistent view that Aratta is in Northwest Iran? I'm not going to get drawn into a debate about whether or not Urartu extended as far as east of Lake Urmia, we have other article that should hopefully enlighten you on that. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 21:30, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Selecting speculations to ostensibly "verify" opinions is not how citation works. And neither is placing citation tags on any NPOV that might chip away at your views.

And yes I know, 2 millenia later, the Urartu extended an empire as far east as Lake Urmia.

Sumerophile (talk) 21:37, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure what you are accusing me of but the only thing I am trying to verify with this edit is: Samuel Kramer, who first translated them (Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta: a Sumerian Epic Tale of Iraq and Iran, 1952) believed 'Aratta' to have referred to a location in NW Iran. That is not an opinion, it is an easily verifiable statement, and removing it without cause is against policy. But thanks for your expert advice on "how citation works", maybe next time you will come to the table with a few of your own instead of relying on your personal authority. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 21:44, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Original research

I was not looking for a link to the Aratta myth; what I am asking for is just one reliable cite that specifically says Armenia lacks the "minerals" (eg lapis lazuli or "Armenian stone") mentioned in the Aratta myth. I have found plenty of sources that contradict you on that very point, but I have been patiently asking for just one that supports you. The statement that needs a citation, is the one in the article. If you cannot cite this dubious claim to any kind of source, it will soon again be removed from the article, per WP:V. Repeatedly re-adding the same OR claim without citations every time it is removed, will not help anything at all in the long run. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 00:08, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

You need reliable sources, not folks like Ian Wilson, and reliable sources need to be cited properly, not speculation cited as belief or fact.
Armenian stone is different from lapis lazuli; if you cite armenian stone, you will also need to show that it was used in Sumer.
Sumerophile (talk) 03:15, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
The statement that requires citation to remain in the article, is the one now in the article, that is marked with a "fact" tag. I am not required to furnish any citations whatsoever in order to remove plainly uncited material, please read WP:V. If you still have trouble understanding Wikipedia cornerstone policies, I can get an admin to explain them to you anytime you're ready. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 03:48, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
So, you feel you are not required to find references proving the OR statements are verifiable, for you to keep sticking them back in the article, however that *I* am required to find references proving those same statements false, in order to remove them? User:Sumerophile, you are too funny! The statement in the article is dubious, it has been challenged, it has not been cited, is it unverifiable, it is being removed. Adding the dubious OR statement in yet again, without any kind of reference for it aside from your personal authority, would be a serious blunder on your part, and will surely lead to an RFC of one kind or another. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 13:52, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

This sentence has been there for over a year, with an (unsourced) Ararat-location slant. When someone NPOV's the sentence, and you then add citation tags the words that disclaim the Ararat theory (based on the only source we have - the myth itself), that is pushing an Ararat theory POV, and POV it is because there is no reliable source for it. Sumerophile (talk) 20:19, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] RFC - Footnote about Aratta

Please see the above debate and the recent edit war regarding unsourced statements in the footnote. I have come to the conclusion that the entire footnote is off-topic anyway; there's no need to have a footnote if it's going to be a POV fork about Aratta that conflicts with the wikipedia article Aratta; all we need here is a link to that article itself, if readers wish to know what various scholars have said about it. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 22:02, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the Aratta article is full of agenda with unreliable sources. This footnote was even fine with you until it's wording got NPOVed. The source for information about Aratta is the myth; there is no other evidence even for its existance, much less a location on Ararat. Sumerophile (talk) 22:09, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

You are under the false impression that I have been "arguing" that Aratta is "really" located on Ararat. I really don't know what gave you that idea, must be demons inside your own head that you are arguing against. The fact is, I have only been trying to remove your uncited and unverifiable statements from the article, and you keep re-adding them. I have never once stated any opinion on where Aratta may have been, if anywhere, because our opinions are irrelevant. What is relevant is that various scholars have placed it anywhere from Urartu to Afghanistan. And even that is of dubious relevance to this article, since we can just link the main article and that should be enough, with no footnote at all. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 22:18, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

'Demons in my head' would explain the above discussion, and what you've edited on the Aratta page? WP:Civility WP:Fringe Sumerophile (talk) 22:24, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Show me once where I have ever stated a personal opinion on where Aratta existed. I only use references to published opinions on the matter, which as I have shown range anywhere from Urartu to Afghanistan. On the other hand, I'm still pateiently waiting for you to come up with even a solitary reference backing up the uncited statements you keep readding (now with identical text in two totally unrelated places). Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 22:26, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Okay, okay, calm down you two! I admit that Til Eulenspiegel asked me to have a look. However, after five minutes of trying to figure out what the problem is here the one item that stands out is that the two of you are at each other's throats. I don't know who is right her, but I suggest both of you step back, relax & maybe work somewhere else on Wikipedia while the RfC on this article is discussed. And please note: an RfC is not a punishment on anyone, it is an attempt to bring in an uninvolved (& hopefully objective) editor to evaluate the conflicting claims & offer some comments. Once these opinions are presented, I expect both of you will then consider them in a level-headed & calm manner. -- llywrch (talk) 22:37, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. Sumerophile (talk) 22:39, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

For the record, the Aratta footnote is listed twice. The first footnote should be a different footnote which was also removed at some point.

Some versions of Sumerian myths may also suggest Dilmun as a possible place of origin, although they may simply be refering to an idealized paradise. Most Sumerian mythology simply refers to the Mesopotamian region, suggesting their origins were there.

Sumerophile (talk) 22:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

  • User:Sumerophile, would you have anything remotely resembling a quote, a citation, a reference, or a reliable source making any such statement as "the area (ie Urartu) lacks the minerals associated with Aratta" ??? Or are we just supposed to take your authority and expertise for it? If you don't have an RS, that statement is unverifiable, and should be removed.
  • Question #2: Would you have anything remotely resembling a quote, a citation, a reference, or a reliable source making any such statement as "There is at this time no archaeolgical evidence to attest Aratta's actual existence" ??? Or are we just supposed to take your authority and expertise for it? If you don't have an RS, that statement is unverifiable, and should be removed.
  • Question #3: To what end were you repeatedly removing my referenced citation of the epic's original translator, Professor Kramer's published opinion that Aratta is in IRAN? All in the name of fighting my imaginary, supposed "Aratta = Ararat agenda"?? Huh?? You're really tilting at windmills there, buddy... Or do I have to point out that Mt. Ararat is not in Iran at all, but in Turkey? So assuming I did have an "Aratta = Ararat agenda" like you accuse me (which I haven't), why would I add Professor Kramer's view, and more importantly, why wouldn't you allow Professor Kramer's view even to be mentioned? This behaviour of removing valid sources while insisting on your own uncited OR, is truly bizarre and illogical. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 23:37, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

1.-2. You have provided no WP:RSs for your assertions. If there were archaeological evidence, or Aratta minerals in the Armenian Highland, you would be able to show it, if it existed, but you have not.

3. The above discussion, the discussion on the ANE project talk page [3], your edits of the Aratta article, and your selection of where to add citation tags on this page. You have also confused Kramer's statements in your citations. You do not need to throw vitriol and insult here.

Sumerophile (talk) 17:45, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

You still totally fail to comprehend our cornerstone policies. Have you actually bothered to read WP:V? If not, this would be a very good time to read it. The statements that need to be verified are the ones actually appearing in the article. The reason I do not have to provide reliable sources for "Aratta minerals in the Armenian Highland", is because I am not trying to add any such statement into the article saying there were. Now if I were trying to add a statement saying that into the article, THEN I would be required by policy to find sources backing that up. On the contrary, I am trying to REMOVE a statement saying there were NO such minerals, because this statement is unverifiable in the absence of any published source stating there are no such minerals. The only authority we have for this dubious "information" is User:Sumerophile, thus the statement is "original research" and should not be repeatedly returned to the article when it is removed. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 17:59, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

No you are trying to remove a statement that was NPOVed. If you wish to make changes, such as removing the disclaimer for Ararat[4], which is in the myth - the only source for Ararat at this point, you need to provide evidence for it. Sumerophile (talk) 18:26, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Sumerophile -- I don't know much about the details of this fight. And I strongly urge Til Eulenspiegel to stop using attacks such as "demons in your head", that is clearly not helpful. However, you are simply wrong on this point -- no one needs to provide evidence to remove an unproven point from an article. If something is disputed and does not have a reliable source, it should always be removed. It's always better to say less, reliably, than to say more uncertainly. Msalt (talk) 20:30, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I want to say a few of things to this -

Somebody can just cynically citation-tag every word in something they don't like, and disrupt editing - at what point does common sense come in?

Also, it is a simple matter to cite the presence of something, like archaeological facts, but nobody writes about the absence of things for easy quotation, people write about their actual ongoing projects. The onus is really on the person asserting the presence of something to show it's actually there. This sounds silly, but we have POVs that want myths to be real - this seems to happen frequently in the Ancient Near East articles. How would you cite, for instance, that Cinderella is not known to be a real person?

Sumerophile (talk) 01:23, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Sumerophile, the absence of something cannot be put into an article in Wikipedia unless a reliable source states that it is absent. And the absence of these minerals can not be used to disprove that Arrata = Uartu, even if you find a source saying they are absent, unless the SOURCE says that it disproves that link. Otherwise it's original research by you, specifically Synthesis. Read WP:SYN if that doesn't make sense.
Cinderella is an interesting example. The Wikipedia article on Cinderella does not say she is not known to be a real person. Why? Because no one provided a reliable source that said so. The article does provide a number of scholarly sources saying that it is a very old myth, going back at least to the first century B.C. The point is, wikipedia editors aren't allowed to prove anything, even by finding sources. They quote or paraphrase reliable sources who prove things. Got it? Msalt (talk) 09:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

What do you do when someone claims, say, that Cinderella is from Ottumwa Iowa and then asks you to disprove it. Sumerophile (talk) 16:01, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

It depends who says it -- a Wikipedia editor, or a reliable source. Can you please be specific about the part of the article that you object to? By the way, it is considered rude around here not to indent your comments. I responded to you by typing a colon : at the start of my reply, which indented it compared to yours. For your reply, you should type two colons :: before it, which will indent again so people know who you are replying to. Thank you! Msalt (talk) 16:10, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
OK I obviously did not know that and was not trying to be rude. "Got it?" - That was a bit rude. User:Til Eulenspiegel is extremely rude. And I'm very tired of having other people's behaviors thrown at me.
There are theories, sometimes with a nationalistic bent, that Aratta is either 1) on Ararat, or in Urartu (as in the Aratta article), or 2) the Jiroft civilization, but Aratta is not known to us outside of the myth, and the "clues" from the myth itself don't accord with either of these theories, or to anywhere.
Sumerophile (talk) 16:29, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Thank you, Sumerophile. That's very helpful (and well indented :) ). I agree that rudeness is unhelpful and a problem here. But I'm pretty sure we can move forward and get past it. Similarly, I'm confident we can work to some consensus wording here without letting anyone make a case for (or against) nationalistic theories.
There's nothing wrong with controversies over things like this; but we should reflect them on the page, with impeccably reliable sources, and give appropriate weight to different arguments based on the verifiable, (in this case) scientific/historical information available. And if there are arguments, we need to find a SOURCE that makes the argument, instead of us editors making the argument and finding facts to support them. Make sense?
In the case at hand, if this is a current controversy among historians and scientists studying this issue, then it shouldn't be too hard to find scholarly sources making the argument you have made here, that the lack of certain minerals proves a lack of connection between these ancient place names. But you need to find that source before we can put the argument in. Looking at it the other way -- do you have any reason to say that Samuel Kramer is not a scholar qualified to discuss this subject? At first glance it looks like he is, in which case you really should not remove him from the article. The better approach is to say (when you have found a rebutting source) "Kramer says X, though SoAndSo disagrees because Y." This assumes that SoAndSo is qualified and represents a significant view in the scholarly community, not a fringe. Msalt (talk) 22:52, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I reworded the first phrase to simply refer to the myth. In the two theories on location, the locations don't accord with the myth, our only source for this entity, and the sources show very clearly how they don't accord.
Kramer is more than qualified. He initially speculated that Aratta might mean Urartu, a tribe that shows up 2 millenia later in modern Turkey, then subsequently speculated it might be in modern Iran. There were 2 things wrong with the Kramer citation 1) the source cited was the old one, but the opinion expressed was his later speculation and 2) his statements were speculation, not belief or fact - he like any professional doesn't present unknown things as belief or fact.
Sumerophile (talk) 23:47, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Interesting. Why don't you and Til Eulenspiegel each draft a new version of that paragraph that expresses all of that, and post it here for comparison? Since I know next to nothing about the subject, I'll be a good representative of the general reading public to look them over.  :) Msalt (talk) 23:54, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
My re-draft is in the article now. Sumerophile (talk) 00:03, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


User:Sumerophile is mistaken; Samuel Kramer consistently placed Aratta in the same location in all of his publications; namely, the region between Lake Urmiah and the Caspian in NW Iran. He was so convinced of this view that he titled his original monograph "An Epic Tale of Iraq and Iran". He indicated his belief so unambiguously that I seriously wonder if Sumerophile has ever even read even one of Kramer's works on the subject. How can you possibly claim that Kramer ever "changed his mind" about Aratta's location? Where is the evidence? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 00:18, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
With your latest changes to your response above, it is more apparent than ever that you are not familiar with Prof. Kramer's published views and know not of which you speak. Prof. Kramer certainly never said anything like Aratta is in Turkey. He always consistently placed it in NW Iran, and never changed his opinion. That is why his original 1952 monograph was entitled "An Epic Tale of Iraq and Iran", instead of "An Epic Tale of Iraq and Turkey". Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 16:59, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
In the early translation you have been citing, Kramer speculated Aratta to be an early name for Urartu, a tribe that shows up much later in Anatolia. Sumerophile (talk) 17:43, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Please don't continue to tell us what Kramer's 1952 translation says when it's so painfully obvious you have not read it. If you had actually read it, you wouldn't keep trying to pretend that he placed Aratta in Turkey, Anatolia, or anywhere else but in NW Iran. Heck, if you had even read the title of his translation, you might know this -- but just in case you have still missed it, here it is, once more again: Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta: an Epic Tale of IRAQ and IRAN. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 22:03, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Til Eulenspiegel, it is very unhelpful for you to keep using insulting language. Please stop. You keep repeating the title but it doesn't prove anything to me. Each of you keep repeating points. It would be much more helpful for you each to post here on Talk the language that you think is more accurate, and tell me WHAT PAGE you are using as a citation. It might be also helpful for you to type a bigger chunk of the original text you are quoting here for us all to look at. Then we can see the context. Thank you. Msalt (talk) 23:49, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
But I'm not asserting the presence of anything here. I'm pointing out that this argument is original research, because it is an argument nobody as far as we can tell has ever made before. Even if it is a perfectly correct and good argument (which I am personally doubtful that it is), we still cannot conduct original research. If it is an argument you read once somewhere, do tell us where. If it is not an argument you read anywhere but on wikipedia, we have to assume it is an arguent that a wikipedian came up with, so it has to go. We are only allowed to use arguments that have appeared in the published literature, not make up our own and cobble them together with half-baked references that don't even mention the topic. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 01:49, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
You obviously have not read WP:V yet. Please read it. Quite simply, I am not required to find any sources whatsoever in order to be able to remove an unsourced statement from the article. You, User:Sumerophile, are the only authority we have for this unsourced statement in the article, you categorically refuse to provide sources for the unsourced statement, and instead demand that I find sources that contradict you. This same nonsense has been going on for days, but it isn't going to continue indefinitely, because we have cornerstone policies, and they are not negotiable. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 19:20, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Clean-up

Due to the bickering over one small part of this article, the passages mentioning Aratta have gotten mangled. I removed one footnote that discusses the existence of Aratta, which not only duplicates material appearing later in this article but links to an unrelated passage at the beginning! (Since it's possible that there was a citation here that was later lost, I put a "fact" tag as a clue to a future editor.) Likewise, the section which mentions Aratta -- which consists of about two or three sentences in this entire article & has been viciously fought over by both of you -- needed its references matched to the proper statements. Blindly reverting other editors is not going to make this article better! -- llywrch (talk) 19:32, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Original research tag added to section

User:Sumerophile, did you read our policy on WP:SYNT? What we will need is a published author who has specifically written something like "Urartu is a poor match for Aratta, because it lacks the materials mentioned in the myth". If anyone has ever published such a statement before, it can be used. If no one has ever published such a statement before, we, by policy, cannot be the first to make this argument, because it is Original Research. Is that simple enough? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 00:28, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


I think WP:Synth is what is going on in the Aratta article. Sumerophile (talk) 01:25, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, but this is the page to discuss this article; Talk:Aratta is the place to discuss changes to that article. But now that you mention it, I admit I did add some refs that would not stand up to the same scrutiny, so to be fair I am now going there and remove them myself. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 01:49, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


The sources given in this article are reliable and relevant and there is no synthesis going on here.

The Aratta article is still full of synthesis. You also changed the Lapis armenus article [5] to accord with your synthesis, when no archaeologist would consider it synonymous with Lapis lazuli.

Sumerophile (talk) 16:08, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


Now that someone has introduced Georges Roux, Ancient Iraq to this article, would you both look at note 18 on page 116. In case you don't have a copy of this work (accepted by many as being an accurate account of the mainstream consensus on Mesopotamian history), it offers a number of identifications for Aratta: "located near lake Urmiah by E. I. Gordon, Bi. Or., XVII (1960), p. 132, n. 63; near Kerman, in central Iran, by V. Madjizadeh, JNES, XXXV (1976), p. 107; around Shahr-i-Sokhta, in eastern Iran, by J.F. Hansman, JNES, XXXVII (1978), pp. 331-6." In other words, Aratta is considered to have existed. Further, in his The Sumerians, Kramer notes that Aratta appears in 4 of the 5 most important epic poems (p. 37). Add the information to the article, & move to working on another part of the article. -- llywrch (talk) 01:17, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

The Roux quote shows that the most popular possible location for Aratta is one's own dig site.
I can mention the other myths, but they just mention Aratta and give little information about it.
Sumerophile (talk) 16:49, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Sumerophile, if you are going to allege that there is synthesis in this article, please be specific; quote the line, quote the source, and demonstrate what the Wikipedia editor has added that is not in the original source. You realize, right, that on Wikipedia, synthesis means taking true facts from reliable sources but using them to construct an argument that isn't actually in those sources. You see? You may have a great source saying that certain minerals are not at a certain location, but you can't say in this article that this proves that Arratta is not Uartu unless you have a reliable source that says so.
I would also appreciate it if you would stop using the word "myths" for statements that are considered by many to be facts or scientific hypotheses. Llywrch has presented solid science from a reliable source. Unless you can do the same, this discussion is pretty much settled, until you can find some. And even when and if you do, the solution is not deleting the existing information, but presenting both and noting the presence of a disagreement among experts. Msalt (talk) 23:47, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
"There is no synethesis going on here"?? Obviously you still are not clear on the concept, after numerous wikipedians have tried to explain it to you. There is most certainly WP:SYNT going on in the claims regarding the presence or absence of minerals in the Aratta region, since that argument appears in no published source we know of, and appears to be a "wikipedia original", AKA "original research". Sometimes you have very stubborn editors and it takes a crowbar to get the original research out of the article, but it always comes out in the end. Oh, and this is not the correct page to discuss what you feel is original syntheis at another article. If you feel there is synthesis at some other article, first bring it up on the talk page there, then it can be discussed by a consensus of editors on those pages. This page is for discussing the synth problems at THIS article. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 17:05, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I just looked over the disputed text again. There is no evidence for the statement "is known only from myth." The footnote (to the electronic corpus, which I love) only shows that it is present in ancient texts, not that it is absent from science. Unless someone can provide a better source soon, I will remove that statement. Msalt (talk) 00:16, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

These are myths ("epic poems"). If there is any other evidence for it, it has to be produced.
If our sole sources for Aratta describe it as being a source of lapis lazuli, then a possible location for it has to meet that criterium.
The quotes are like saying you've found a possible Atlantis or Noah's Ark. People say things like that for press, but nothing more comes of it.
Sumerophile (talk) 00:28, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for that edit -- it's certainly better without "only." How about this -- until we can work this issue out, how about removing all of the stuff about the historicity of Aratta? That is, the stuff in parentheses? In the short run at least, I think the less said the better. Once we hammer out a statement that expresses such controversy as we can support with reliable sources, we can add that statement. Does that work for everyone? Msalt (talk) 00:43, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
The stuff in the parentheses is what this is all about. It is very important that its mythical nature be expressed, otherwise we get non-factual assumptions. Sumerophile (talk) 01:05, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
MSalt, at one point I actually tried that solution you suggest - see [6] figuring all we really need here is a link to Aratta, not a POV fork from that article. It was quickly reverted along with the usual accusation that my edits were pushing an "Aratta = Ararat POV" (which I have never once stated to be my POV, and actually I have really tried unsuccessfully for some time to add Kramer's referenced view that it is in NW Iran, which would rule out Ararat when you really think about it - but who cares about little details like that when it's so easy to lob POV accusations?) Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 01:15, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
This is what you've been asserting about Kramer[7]. Sumerophile (talk) 03:35, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, to be technical, this is what I've been asserting about Prof. Kramer, and what you keep inexplicably removing from the article (my version of the 'footnote'):

There is as yet no evidence for Aratta's existence outside of the Sumerian epics; Samuel Kramer, who first translated them (Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta: a Sumerian Epic Tale of Iraq and Iran, 1952) believed 'Aratta' to have referred to a location in NW Iran. Several scholars including Armenian archaeologists have speculated that it is an early name for Urartu or Ararat, while others have speculated that it lay somewhere farther to the east, such as the newly-discovered Jiroft civilization in Iran.[8]

Note the presence of RS and lack of OR in my suggested wording - which is continually reverted in favor of a version where OR is present and RS is lacking. So then what else can I do? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 03:59, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

That's not a citation: you mention Kramer's translation of the myth, and then quote him "believing" something without giving a page number. You also removed the disclaimers showing how these locales don't accord with the myths.
Sumerophile (talk) 16:17, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Then, whom are we to attribute or credit with first pointing out these "disclaimers" that nobody has ever seen in print before?
Wikipedia editors?
Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 18:40, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
The myths specify a feature, which is RS-verified not to be true of a given locale. Sumerophile (talk) 18:56, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
MSalt and Llywrch, do you see what I mean now? This guy just absolutely will not, no-how, no matter what, and no matter how many editors patiently explain, accept what Wikipedia Policy says at WP:SYN. Good luck, I give up beating my head against a brick wall for days and days on end here. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 19:05, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Til Eulenspiegel, it seems clear that there is a personal issue between you and Sumerophile. And while I think I understand the points you are making, in my opinion you also continue to use inflammatory language against Sumerophile, so perhaps your instinct to take a break is best for all concerned. Care to join the fray at Prem Rawat? :) That article could sure use some more uninvolved editors. Msalt (talk) 18:45, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps you can tell us all, Til Eulenspiegel, where on earth you see synth in any of this. Sumerophile (talk) 00:43, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Can we agree on this?

1) the dispute over any modern locations that may or may not be identified with Aratta should stay in the footnote rather than the main text;

2) I removed the word "only", which Sumerophile had removed before. I think this should be a good starting point for resolving this dispute. Sumerophile, what do you think? Others? Msalt (talk) 18:53, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

It's supposed to be a footnote, but I had moved it to the main text when I was trying to add refs and it messed up the formatting.
I have no idea what issues are going on with Til Eulenspiegel, but if you have any idea what kind of point he was trying to made, other than locating Aratta somewhere, I'd like to know what it was. He has come out swinging at me on several occasions before, as well as throwing tantrums on noticeboards and talk pages. This kind of behavior can serve no good in a collective encyclopedia.
Sumerophile (talk) 21:03, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Sumerophile, I get that you and Til Eulenspiegel are not fond of each other. Let's ignore that for the time being. I proposed a starting point for a compromise just now. Can you tell me if you think that is fair? (modern identifications of Aratta in footnote, not main text, and remove the word "only" from "only in myth.") Thank you. Msalt (talk) 22:33, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
NOTE: Before the page can be unprotected without another edit war immediately resuming, there are a number of other disputes on this article ASIDE from the Aratta footnote, that have also arisen from Sumerophile's unilateral changes that seem to be pushing a personal POV. For example, notice how he tried to blank out an entire dynasty, the Akshak dynasty, because he summarily declared it in the edit summary as "not that important" in his own judgment? What kind of pretext is that for suppressing encyclopedic information? Just because a single user decides without discussion that it's "not that important"? Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 22:43, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Msalt, it's not a matter of fondness, or personality clashes or anything else. How would you like the above happening to you, or this: "ALl of your edits are disputed and will not happen without a lengthy discussion of their merits". This is threatening an editor's ability to do anything, and his behavior has been nothing but disruptive.
Yes, I have no problem with the sentence being a footnote, that's where it should be.
My own personal view is that I would prefer a stronger statement with "only", but I can live without it - I removed it myself.
Sumerophile (talk) 23:24, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Thank you. I think we have a good start for moving forward. Are others (who know more about this stuff than I do) comfortable with this as a starting point? Msalt (talk) 00:44, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure we really need any footnote about Aratta at all, since this is after all the History of Sumer, and a certain someone has been trying to use the "footnote" as a POV fork in direct contradiction to our well-referenced article at Aratta. But, if there is to be any commentary on Aratta here, I agree that it should be in a footnote, and I also feel strongly that this footnote should strenuously avoid making controversial and novel-research statements that simply do not appear anywhere in the vast body of citeable literature that has already been written on the very subject of Aratta's possible location. Therefore, once again, I have proposed that the footnote, if one is necessary, look like this:
There is as yet no evidence for Aratta's existence outside of the Sumerian epics; Samuel Kramer, who first translated them (Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta: a Sumerian Epic Tale of Iraq and Iran, 1952) believed 'Aratta' to have referred to a location in NW Iran. Several scholars including Armenian archaeologists have speculated that it is an early name for Urartu or Ararat, while others have speculated that it lay somewhere farther to the east, such as the newly-discovered Jiroft civilization in Iran. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 00:55, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
The more sources you look up on Aratta, the more you will see a consensus among authors that it was probably somewhere in Iran. You will also find those who point out that the name "Aratta" has been attested in ancient Sanskrit works like the Mahabharata as being a location in Afghanistan or Punjab, but there is much disagreement in the sources as to whether or not this has anything to do with the Aratta of the Sumerian epics. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 01:02, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Interesting. No footnote at all seems like it might be cleaner. Certainly, given the controversy here, I think it's fair to say that any footnote needs to be carefully sourced. Msalt (talk) 01:06, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
It's better to hash out the footnote, than to do away with it. Til Eulenspiegel, you didn't answer the question. In fact in your suggestion, the first phrase, which we are working on here, was derived from one of my earlier edits and has a strongly worded statement of Aratta's lack of evidence. Sumerophile (talk) 01:41, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Why is it better to have a footnote? As it stands, the page makes no statement about whether Aratta corresponds to any location in the modern world. What statement do you want to make, and what is your evidence for it? Msalt (talk) 02:33, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
To point out that these statements are being made. The footnote was there before I came along, and I changed it from a pro-Ararat bias to NPOV, which seems to have precipitated this whole thing. Sumerophile (talk) 02:56, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Being made by who? And where? If we don't repeat the statements in our article, I don't understand why we need to debate whether they are true or not. Let's just blow by them. Or, if the controversy is significant, we should summarize it in a footnote. But all sides will need to be given appropriate weight in that summary. You get that, right? Msalt (talk) 15:01, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Footnotes 3-10 in the Aratta article are examples of these statements being made. Sumerophile (talk) 15:25, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
If you have a problem with the Aratta page, then you should go there and work on it. Putting a comment here is WP:SOAP soapboxing, which is something we don't do. Msalt (talk) 22:04, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Yep, that's working like a charm. And he knows bad behavior works. Sumerophile (talk) 01:01, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Personal attack ignored - User is now adding the same identical WP:SYNT argument tothe Aratta article that multiple editors here have cautioned him against here. Assistance in explaining WP:OR, WP:RS, and WP:V cornerstone policies is urgently needed. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 01:05, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Definition of Original Synthesis

Following is the WIkipedia policy definition of "Original synthesis":

"Material can often be put together in a way that constitutes original research even if its individual elements have been published by reliable sources. Synthesizing material occurs when an editor tries to demonstrate the validity of his or her own conclusions by citing sources that when put together serve to advance the editor's position. If the sources cited do not explicitly reach the same conclusion, or if the sources cited are not directly related to the subject of the article, then the editor is engaged in original research. Summarizing source material without changing its meaning is not synthesis — it is good editing. Best practice is to write Wikipedia articles by taking claims made by different reliable sources about a subject and putting those claims in our own words on an article page, with each claim attributable to a source that makes that claim explicitly."
"Editors should not make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to advance position C. This would be synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, which constitutes original research.[6] "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article."
The argument that Aratta is a poor match for Urartu because of an alleged lack of minerals, even assuming it were a solid and correct argument, meets the definition of "ORIGINAL SYNTHESIS" because this argument has never before appeared in any published source we know of. Wikipedia is by policy not allowed to be used as a publishing website for new theories that have never appeared in print, therefore policy says this novel research argument HAS TO GO. One editor is insisting that this novel research be allowed to remain in the article even though nobody before Wikipedia has ever before published such an argument, but at least three editors have explained why this contradicts policy, to no avail. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 22:05, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Page protected due to edit warring

The ongoing content dispute has now turned into a full fledged edit war. I submit that the two users involved hammer it out here as the effect on the article is wholly disruptive. Strongly recommend consulting WP:3O or WP:RFM to help reach a consensus between the editors. Wisdom89 (T / C) 22:32, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. Msalt (talk) 22:35, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
You would think that an editor harassing and wholesale disrupting another editor's work would be slapped on the wrist for his behavior, but now we have a footnote removed which was his entire aim in the first place. Disruption and tantrums are the way to go. Sadly, I'm not very good at that. Sumerophile (talk) 23:45, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Oxford?

A question for Sumerophile. When you refer simply to "Oxford" what book do you mean? the article currently refers to a book published by Oxford University Press entitled "Egypt, Greece and Rome". It's an important question because books from that publisher are definitely within the category of reliable sources. But full references are always needed. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:46, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Probably the ETCSL? (I'm not exactly sure where you're referring to.) It's a compilation of Sumerian literature put together by Oxford University. The reference to it in the article has been removed now. http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/ Sumerophile (talk) 23:35, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requesting admin to move Lugal-Anne-Mundu to correct spot

I just noticed that the sections on Lugal-Anne-Mundu, Kug-Bau and Akshak seem to have got out of chronological sequence, after being moved around quite a lot. Lugal-Zage-Si followed directly on Urukagina of Lagash, as the text correctly indicates, whereas Lugal-Anne-Mundu, Kug-Bau and Akshak came before Lagash and were right after Enshakushanna (2nd Uruk), also as the text indicates. Could an admin please restore those three sections to before Lagash? Thanks, Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 03:17, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually they are (and always were) arranged by dynasty - it's far clearer to keep the dynasties together, than to split up the 1st Lagash dynasty and have to come back to it repeatedly. Sumerophile (talk) 03:30, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
It is not "clearer", it is misleading and makes no sense whatsoever to suggest that the two "Lugals" who dominated Mesopotamia (Lugal-Anne-Mundu and Lugal-Zage-Si) came together in sequence, when in fact they were separated by the entire dynasty of Lagash coming in between them. It is also misleading and makes no sense whatsoever to suggest that Lugal-Anne-Mundu, Kug-Baba and Akshak intervened directly between Urukagina and Lugal-Zage-Si, when Lugal-Zage-Si was Urukagina's direct successor. And no, that's NOT the way this article has "always" been -- I originally wrote most of the basic outline for this article myself, I should know. This request is for an admin, who can easily become satisfied of these facts by reading what the sections in question themselves do say. I am not asking the admin to split up the Lagash dynasty, that is NOT what I am suggesting at all. Leave the Lagash dynasty intact, let's just get the sequence correct, it looks so sloppy now. First Enshakushanna (2nd Uruk) dominated Mesopotamia, then Lugal-Anne-Mundu dominated Mesopotamia (Kug-Bau and Akshak also arose at this time, before Lagash), THEN the Lagash dynasty dominated Mesopotamia, and THEN Lugal-Zage-Si dominated Mesopotamia, then Sargon and the Akkadians. These facts are indisputable, and we can do better than present a skewed, inaccurate picture.

This article has been on full protection for two months, but given the total lack of cooperative spirit among editors that led to its being locked, I do not think it would be wise to unlock it any time soon. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 11:42, 1 May 2008 (UTC)