Talk:History of Shaivism

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Contents 1 History of Evolution of Saivism 1.1 Salient features 1.2 Saivism in other parts of India 1.3 Saivism in Indus Valley 1.4 Period of evolution 1.5 The god trinity 1.6 Lingam 1.7 Nataraja 1.8 Dakshinamoorthy 1.9 Absolute truth 1.10 Parvathi 1.11 Ganapathi 1.12 Murugan 1.13 Architecture 1.14 Other idols 1.15 Worship 1.16 Agamas 1.17 Salagaramam 1.18 Rudram 1.19 Chamakam 1.20 Sacred Ash 1.21 Om 1.22 Namasivaya 1.23 Sivacharya 1.24 Siva Shrines 1.25 Gurus 1.26 Vaishnavism 1.27 The reformation by the immigrants 2 Article name 3 Lack of sources 4 Under Construction 5 Normalization of romanizations across articles 6 Use of Underconstruction template 7 Neutrality and Factual Accuracy 8 Reorganize by time periods

[edit] History of Evolution of Saivism

Saivism was born in Tamilnadu, the southern most part of India. Though it spread to other parts of the country, it could not make much headway there. So even today Tamilnadu continues to be the home of Saivism. It can be dated back to Indus Valley Civilisation, but it became a distinct religion and took the name Saivism only during the period between 3rd century A.D. to 10th century A.D.

[edit] Salient features

1 Siva is considered to be the supreme God. Of the god-trinity, Brahma, Vishnu and Siva, the last is the most powerful and controls the other two.

2 He is worshipped in two forms. One as a lingam and the other as human form. The human form has several varieities. The most important of them are Nataraja - the dancing posture and Dakshinamoorthy - the teacher instructing the four sages on the absolute truth.

3 His consort Parvathi, his sons Ganapathi and Murugan are also worshipped in the temples.

4 There are many temples in Tamilnadu dedicated to Siva. Their architecture, lay-out, the location of various idols, methods of worship, are all prescribed by books called Agamas and no deviation is allowed.

5 People also worship Siva at home. They have idols of natural lingam-shaped Salagramam stones to which they perform ablution, flower-worship and Nivedhanam. (food offering)

6 Certain portions of the Vedas such as Rudram and Chamakam are considered adoratory to Siva,

7 The sacred ash forms an important part of worship. Siva is bathed in it. This is distributed to the devotees who wear it on their forehead,neck, chest and hands of the body with reverence.

8 The sacred syllable Om is used during the worship preofusely.

9 The five syllabled word Na-ma-si-va-ya is considered holy and devotees consider it their duty to repeat it several times.

10 The priests of the Siva temples are called Sivacharyas. Brahmins are not allowed to perform the worship inside the sanctum sanctorum, which is the exclusive and hereditary privilege of Sivacharyas.

11 Chidambaram, a town in Tamilnadu houses the famous Nataraja temple. This place is considered the holiest of Siva shrines.

12 Thirugnana Sambandar, Thirunavukkarasar, Sundaramurthy and Manicka vachakar are considered the Gurus of Saivism. The hymns sung by the first three are collected into a book called Thevaram. The work of Manickavachakar is called Thiruvachakam. These books are reverentially worshipped and recited by the devotees. The first three form part of the 63 Nayanmars, staunch devotees of Siva.

13 Saivism had been in conflict with Vaishnavism, another sect of Hinduism, in the past. In spite of several efforts by well-meaning kings and saints, the cold war between the two still continues.

Notes:-

[edit] Saivism in other parts of India

Of the 12 Jyotirlinga shrines, the most famous temples dedicated to Siva, Rameswaram alone is in Tamilnadu. Varanasi on the banks of Ganga and Kedarnath on the Himalayas are two of them.

[edit] Saivism in Indus Valley

In Mohenjodaro, Harappa and other sites of western India and Pakistan , the remains of an ancient civilisation dating back to 3rd millennium B.C. have been excavated. Among the artefacts, a lingam, a figure of a male god in Yogic posture and another surrounded by animals have been found.These Mahayogi and Pasupathi could be the precursors of Dakshinamoorthy, a form of Siva.

[edit] Period of evolution

Karaikkal Ammaiyar, the earliest of the 63 ardent devotees of Siva is supposed to have lived in 3rd century A.D. The Saivism as gathered from her hymns is different in many aspects from the one that prevailed in the time of Manicka vachakar (10th century A.D.), one of the four main Gurus of Saivism. Saivism can be said to have attained the present form during this period.

[edit] The god trinity

Brahma, Vishnu and Siva are considered to be the trinity of Hindu gods. Each has a specific duty. The former creates, Vishnu protects and Siva destroys the world. In vedic times, these deities were not worshipped. These concepts evolved later.

In Vedic times, these dieties (excluding Brahma) WERE worshipped, just not as widely as they (all but Brahma) are today. As a matter of fact, you have it backwards. The dieties (except for Brahma) were worshipped, but the concept of the Trinity came later. Armyrifle 16:41, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lingam

The lingam forms the main deity in Siva temples. It is made of stone. It is cylindrical in shape with rounded top. The base of the lingam is a wide circular disc like structure and is called Avudaiyar. Usually the lingam faces east. But there are many exceptions where it is placed facing west. No lingam faces north or south.

The lingam of Tamilnadu has a peculiar history of its own. The people of Tamilnadu (during the pre-Christian era and the first few centuries) erected stones on the graves of warriors killed in battles as a mark of honour. The stones were erected facing east as was the custom from immemorial times in burying the dead. The stone on the tomb of the royalty had a special treatment. It had a roof and an enclosure. This was called Ko Il, meaning, the home of the king. The stone was polished to have a smooth surface. Just as they did to the living king, the stone was also bathed and fed. In later days, not only the kings killed in the battle field but also those who died naturally and the saints were extended this honour. Priests were appointed to look after these tombs-turned- places of worship. These priests who did this job hereditarily, were known later as Adhi Saivas .

Later these polished stones were conceived to represent the union of male and female. This kind of Phallus worship was present in many cultures of the world. It was despised in the Vedas. But the lingams of Tamilnadu were heroic stones first and only later the concept of phallus was imposed on it.

Later, when temples were built on non-grave spots, the lingam was erected facing west.

[edit] Nataraja

Nataraja idol, usually made of bronze, is kept and worshipped in the north east corner of the temple. The evolution of Nataraja is interesting.

In olden days, it was believed that the dead became spirits and haunted the burning ghats. They worshipped those spirits to ward off any harm from them. In course of time, the belief evolved that there was a head of those departed souls and he was worshipped. In the next stage of the evolution of religious beliefs, the head of the spirits and and Rudra mentioned in the Vedas came to be considered identical. Perhaps it was influenced by the Vedas. (Rudram, a part of Yajur Veda, begins eulogising Rudra and ends up praising Yama, making no distinction between the two.) The three eyed Rudra is the lord of spirits. He presided over not only the dead but also the living and granted welfare to his devotees. The above was the condition when Ammaiyar lived. She describes the lord as wearing the sacred thread, having the river Ganga on his head, sharing his body with his consort, dancing in the cremation ground in the company of demons. But she did not call him by the the name Siva.

The next stage was very important and it led to many far - reaching changes in the religion in later times. The scene was the region ruled by Chola Kings. With its fertile soil it provided a lot of opportunities for the development of religion, arts and literature. Those who pioneered the reformation were the Cholias of Chidambaram, the aboriginal brahmins of the Chola region. (They are, even today, identifiable by their peculiar way of wearing their tufts, tying the tuft in the front part of their head and not in the back as others do.) These Cholias installed a bronze idol of the dancing lord in a hall, which they named Ambalam, meaning an open place. This idol was given all honours which were given to the stone on the grave of the king, like ceremonial ablutions, feeding, flower decoration etc. They being Vedic scholars, used those portions of the Vedas as might be relevant to the new form of worship. Thus the dancing lord of the cremation ground was brought to a dignified place and Chidambaram became the nursery for the religious revolution that was to take place shortly afterwards.

[edit] Dakshinamoorthy

The stone idol of Dakshinamoorthy is placed, facing south as his name literally means, on the southern part of outer circumambulatory path of the sanctum sanctorum. He sits under an Al (banyan) tree and teaches his sage-disciples. This can be linked to the Mahayogi figure of the Indus Valley.

[edit] Absolute truth

He is supposed to teach without opening his mouth, simply by his gesture. His right index finger is bent and touching the tip of the thumb. The other fingers stand apart. This is explained as follows. The thumb denotes God. The index finger denotes the man. The other three fingers represent three impurities of man such as haughtiness, ignorance and past misdeeds. Man can reach god when he dissociates himself from the impurities and bends towards god.

[edit] Parvathi

Parvathi is the consort of Siva. She is the daughter of the mountain-king, Himalaya. During the Sangam age, the worship of Parvathi was not prevalent. During Ammaiyar's time She was supposed to occupy the left half of the body of her husband. When temples were begun to be built, she was not worshipped separately. But later, separate shrines for Parvathi came to be built, probably influenced by the Sakthi cult. Parvathi's stone image is usually erected near the sanctum sanctorum in a separate shrine. It usually faces south or east.

[edit] Ganapathi

Variously called Ganesha, Vinayaka, Pillaiyar etc., he is the eldest son of Siva and Parvathi. He is located in three places. At the base of the flag-mast, on the southern side of the entrance and on the south west corner of the circumambulation. These are all made of stone. This deity is given the priority in worship. Hindus believe that Vinayaka removes all obstacles and hence is worshipped at the beginning of all mundane and spiritual activities. But the worship of Ganapathi was alien to Tamilnadu and probably migrated from Maharashtra alomg with the brahmins. The description of Ganapathi as we find today is not mentioned in the Vedas also. But nowadays Ganapathi is worshipped before every Vedic ritual.

[edit] Murugan

He is variously called Velan, Kumaran etc and identified with Subrahmanya and considered the second son of Siva and Parvathi. Even during the Sangam age he was worshipped and known as the son of the Lord under the banyan tree and Korravai, whereas Ganapathi was not mentioned till 6th century. Murugan was the favourite god of the hill areas of ancient period. The statue of Murugan is usually placed at the northern side of the entrance and just behind the lingam on the circumambulation.

[edit] Architecture

The Siva temples have a tall tower called Gopuram at the entrance. The lingam is placed deep inside straightly facing the front entrance. In between, the flagstaff, the altar and the Nandhi (bull) hide the line of sight. Around the sanctum sanctorum there is one circumambulatory path, sometimes more. All around there is a tall compound wall.

[edit] Other idols

In the circum-path, on the southern side, the idols of 63 Nayanmars, facing north, are placed in big temples. Facing south is the figure of Dakshinamoorthy. On the western side, the idols of Ganapathi, Murugan, Lakshmi and Saraswathi are placed in that order. On the northrn side, the idol of Durga, called Korravai in Sangam age adorns the northern wall of the sanctum sanctorum. Just in front of it is the shrine of Chandeswarar, who is supposed to be the accountant of the Siva household. At the north eastern corner is the idol of Nataraja. Navagrahas (the planet-gods) are kept on a raised platform near there.

[edit] Worship

Worship by the priest is done for one time to six times a day depending on the resources and the popularity of each temple.The usual methods of worship follow this routine. The deity is bathed with oil, water, milk, ghee, honey, curd, various juices, sandal paste etc.. Then it is dressed in the traditional way of Tamilnadu. Jewels and flower garlands are put on. Incenses are burnt. Then food, usually a rice preparation, is offered. Then lamps of various designs are shown to the deity as an honour.Camphor is lit and shown. Then the burning camphor is brought to the devotees who reverentially show their palms over it and place them over their eyes. The sacred ash and Kumkum is distributed which are applied on the forehead. They go round the temple once or more and prostrate before the deity. Various Vedic and other hymns like Thevaram are recited. Except the priest, none is permitted to perform the rituals or go inside the sanctum sanctorum. Except in Chidambaram and a few other places, AdhiSaivas act as priests

[edit] Agamas

Agamas are books of later period. They are usually in Sanskrit. They are 28 in number. Each temple follows its own Agama. The priests are well versed in Agamas, whereas they study only a limited portion of the Vedas.

[edit] Salagaramam

This is a stone available in the river bed of Gandaki in Nepal. This is black and has a glossy surface. It varies in shape from cylindrical with rounded ends to flattened globes. Depending on the shape, this is considered to represent variously Siva, Vishnu etc. Very big stones are used to chisel figures of gods for worship in temples. Small ones are worshipped at homes.

[edit] Rudram

The Vedas adore many gods such as Agni, Vayu, Soma, Surya etc. In the long list of gods, Rudra is one. Rudram is the verse praising the glory of Rudra. In the beginning of the verse, Rudra is seen similar to the sun. As it develops, the verse says that there are thousands of Rudras. It enumerates the various forms of Rudra and salutes them. The following are some of the various salutations. Ye the golden handed, salutations to thee.Ye the commanders of the armies, salutations to thee. In this manner, Rudra is addressed as being the lord of the animals, people sitting on the back of the bulls, those wearing the sacred thread, ministers, merchants, leader of robbers, cheaters, sitting people, those lying on their backs, dogs, masters of the dogs, potters, carpenters, waters of the lake, waters of the tank, rain waters, arid zones, clouds, lightning, wind. Among these 300 odd forms of Rudra, one is Siva, meaning the benevolent. It has no special significance of its own but it had a significance attached to it by the people who revolutionised the religion of the day.

[edit] Chamakam

This is another Vedic hymn. This contains the prayer of a devotee to the Lord to bestow on him various material benefits and spiritual salvation. This list is long - nearly 300 items such as long life, grains of various kinds, cattle of various kinds, rivers, hills etc. It is considered a favourite prayer to Siva, though nowhere in the entire hymn the name of Siva is mentioned. In fact it is addressed to Agni and Vishnu.

[edit] Sacred Ash

Known as Vibhuti, in Sanskrit, it is made by burning dried cow dung. It is showered on lingam and especially, Murugan as a form of honour.^{[citation needed]} It is collected again and distributed to the devotees, who wear it on their foreheads with reverence. There are elaborate rules for making sacred ash.

[edit] Om

This is the holiest of syllables of Veda. The Vedas speak highly of this. Various meanings are given to it. In short, it represents the entire universe and the God. It precedes every hymn of Vedas and other religious prayers.

[edit] Namasivaya

The holiest word for Saivites today. It has its origin in Yajur Veda. It means 'salutation to the benevolent'. This is one of the 300 odd attributes of Rudra, the Vedic god.

[edit] Sivacharya

Priests appointed to look after the royal tombs-turned- places of worship. They did this job hereditarily. They are also known as Adhi Saivas or Gurukkals. Still they are a caste by themselves and do not inter-marry with Brahmins or others.

[edit] Siva Shrines

There are numerous Siva temples in Tamilnadu. Of them those visited by the saint-trinity, Appar, Sambandar and sundarar are the most famous and considered to have special divinity about them. Each has local legend describing the miracles performed by Siva on that soil.

[edit] Gurus

Thirugnana Sambandar, Thirunavukkarasar, Sundaramoorthy and Manickvachakar are the Four Gurus of Savism. The first three are also counted under the list of devotees called Nayanmars. The Tamil hymns composed by them are collectively known as Thevaram. They lived in about 7th century A.D. The last named lived in 10th century A.D.His songs are called Thiruvachakam.

===Nayanmars---

The 63 ardent devotees of Siva who lived upto the period of Sundaramoorthy are called collectively by the name, Nayanmar.How each worshipped Siva and how she or he was led to salvation are described in a book called Peria Puranam written (in Tamil) by Sekkizhar of the 12th century A.D. The statues of these saints are also worshipped in siva temples.

[edit] Vaishnavism

The worship of Vishnu had been in Tamilnadu since time immemorial. But it became a separate sect and dissociated itself from Saivism only after the latter was born by the union of Vedic practices and the old Mahayogi worship of Tamilnadu between 3rd and 10th centuries. Probably it rose as a revolt to the defiling of the Vedas by the architects of Saivism. There had been many conflicts between these two and still the cold war continues, though not so intensely.

[edit] The reformation by the immigrants

The history of Saivism is closely linked to the immigration of Brahmins from the north into Tamilnadu. We can not decide the exact period of the migration, but the period of the first settlement could be guessed to have taken place between 3rd century A.D. and 7th century A.D. They, known as Vadamas, would have been fascinated by the Nataraja worship followed by the Cholia brahmins, because it was closer to their Vedic practices. The Chola Kings were tolerant towards Buddhism and Jainism but they were not reported to have embraced the non-vedic religions as their counterparts in Pallava kingdom and Pandya kingdom did. Most probably they might have requested the new brahmins to spread the Vedic religion and use the Ko Ils (royal graves converted into temples) for the purpose. Most probably on the advice of the Vadamas, an idol of Nataraja was installed in each Ko Il. It was given the honour of priority of worship. Even today this priority continues. The lingam was proclaimed to be the ‘ formless form’ of the Almighty and Nataraja, the human-form-representation of God. Thus the odium attached to a grave was sought to be removed and the Ko Il became a sanctified place.

Siva in the Vedic hymn means the benevolent. It is just one of the various attributes of Rudra. Siva in Tamil means the red coloured. This was the description of the body of the Lord since the early times. So in the 300 odd names of Rudra, the one which was close to the ancient concept of the Tamil god, was Siva. So this name was found to be useful in bridging the Vedic god Rudra and the ancient Cosmic Dancer of the Tamil land. Hence this name was made popular and the hymn containing it was made specially applicable for the newly created Siva.

The priests of the royal grave temples were initiated into brahminism. They were made to wear the sacred thread and certain portions of the Vedas such as Rudram and Chamakam were taught to them.

The Vadamas also introduced the sacred ash (vibhuthi) in the temples. This is a custom peculiar to Maharashtra only and people of no other region of India smear this sacred ash made from cow-dung on their forehead. Here in Tamilnadu, this custom was well received as Rudra was conceived to be dancing in the crematorium smearing the ash of the burnt corpses all over his body and it was considered a holy thing.

feedback to kothandaramans@yahoo.co.in

[edit] Article name

This article should be moved to comply with Wikipedia naming practice, i.e. to History of the evolution of Shaivism. But I prefer a simpler name, such as History of Shaivism or Evolution of Shaivism. Peace, QuartierLatin1968 18:32, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lack of sources

This article contains a lot of questionable content and completely lacks citation of sources, thus it is potentially in violation of Wikipedia editorial policies. We kindly request that the author specifically cite the sources used for this article before we continue the discussion. Thank you. --Japendranatha 00:51, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Under Construction

Getting to work on this long article. I notice that there is another full article entitled "Shaivism", so this one should strictly cover the history with explanation of current practice relegated to Shaivism. That article has a small section on History which reads:

{main|History of Shaivism} With its origins in India, Śaivism has appeal throughout the Hindu world. An icon resembling Siva in his aspect of Pashupata meditating in yogic pose has been found among the remains of the Indus Valley Civilization in the 3rd millennium BCE, leading to speculation that Shiva may be an ancient indigenous deity later incorporated in Vedic Hinduism. John Marshall who first excavated the sites in the Indus valley found evidence of the Linga. The Rig Veda, that can be dated to the second half of the second millennium BCE, refers to Rudra, a concept that later merged with Shiva. Some traditions credit the spreading of Śaivism into southern India to the great sage, Agastya, who is said to have brought Vedic traditions. Megasthenes, the Greek ambassador to the court of Chandragupta Maurya, refers to the worship of Shiva in the 3rd century BCE. Patanjali describes the austere asceticism of the Śaivites in the 2nd century BCE. The earliest coins with Śaivite emblems can be traced back to the Kushanas in the early centuries CE. The Śaivite school then spread to the Cham, Javanese and Khmer courts in South East Asia. The Pallava and Chola empires in South India sponsored Śaivite worship. There can be found almost innumerable Śaivite temples and shrines, with many shrines accompanied as well by murtis dedicated to Ganesha, Lord of the Ganas, followers of Śiva, and son of Śiva and Śakti. The twelve Jyotirling, or "golden Iingam", shrines are among the most esteemed in Śaivism.

This information should/will be integrated here. Big big problem of lack of citations, anticipating that the best sources are going to be written in Tamil, which I do not speak. Any help?
Very important NPOV factor will be the clear understanding that India had civilized people living there well before any English-speaker "discovered" it.
~ Otterpops 18:42, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I have added a picture that I believe to be a dakshinamoorthy to the section describing temple layout. The original caption said that it was a representation of Siva meditating, but his eyes are open and he gazes down on the people looking up at him. Does anyone know that this is NOT a dakshinamoorthy? The photo is from the temple at Bangalore.~ Otterpops 14:40, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Got further info, the statue portrayed is definitely not a dakshinamoorthy because it does not show characteristic teaching hand gesture, also lacks the four learning sages around the central figure. Photo removed. ~ Otterpops 00:53, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

The main article Shiva is also undergoing renovation at this time, so coordination will be important. The main article also contains a very large mass of unsourced material that has accumulated over time. Let's coordinate as much as much as possible on both of these articles. I noticed that the article is without references and added the standard sections for Notes and References per Wikipedia:Guide_to_layout. Buddhipriya 22:51, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Normalization of romanizations across articles

I noted that the articles pertaining to Shiva do not have consistent romanization of Devanagari terms such as the name of the deity (शिव) or things that pertain to him. There are currently no standards to which everyone agrees on the use of romanization methods, including IAST, but the general practice on the Hinduism articles seems to be converging on the idea that at least for words that have common English usage, the most common English equivalent is best for the article. For an initial defintion or in an etymology section, IAST makes sense particularly if the Sanskrit term is important to the artcile. But do others have a different view? Note that neither "Shiva" nor "Siva" captures the palatal श् as would be done if IAST were used, as in śiva. Since the most common romanization used in the Wikipedia articles now is "Shiva", I suggest that it be adopted as standard. Buddhipriya 23:44, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Your suggestion is noted and under consideration. However, note the similarities between shiva and the English slang shiv which means a short crude knife used by thugs to commit violent crimes. The word shaivism is nearly unpronounceable but it sounds very much like that thing men do before the mirror each morning with a razor. Also consider that the suffix -ism is reserved for "heathen" (false) religions - the worship of Jesus is never called "Christism", it is "Christianity".

I selected Siva and Saivam because these words are the least bastardized by Westerners and the ones that appear most elegant and dignified on the page. English speakers in general cannot pronounce these words correctly but they can read them. Another very obvious example of that which I'm trying to counterbalance would be the use of the word kumkum - the colonials may have found it acceptable to reduce Tamil and Sanskrit to baby-talk but we are no longer colonials.

Very glad to have you on board the Siva project, Buddhipriya, but please please work with me instead of jumping in to supervise and revert. There are many improvements to be made in these several articles, a lot of room for several people to work for a long time without interfering with one another. To begin with I would strongly suggest examining the overall language of the "Siva" article you have taken on: the clunky retelling of the Siva legends make Him sound like an enraged bear woken from hibernation. We can do better than that.

~ Otterpops 14:16, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

If you check the edit history for the Shiva article, you will find that most of what I have done there recently is to remove material, reorganize existing content, and add a few strong references. The article is still filled with material that is in the process of being pruned out. Regarding the normalization of the spelling for Shiva, it is currently shown as "Shiva" in the glossary for the Hinduism project. See: [1] The issue in romanization is that the Devanagari writing system has three different "s" sounds, but English has only one. The name शिव begins with the Devanagari श which in academic texts is romanized in IAST as ś. In what is sometimes called "simple English" romanization (using only the 26 letters of the English alphabet with no diacritical marks) this character is transliterated either as "s" or as "sh" in different sources. The Hinduism project currently uses the "sh" simple English most widely. Buddhipriya 15:43, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Use of Underconstruction template

Checking the discussion at Template_talk:Underconstruction#Use_of_this_template, my understanding is that there is debate about the utility of the Underconstruction template. In practical use, the main purpose of this template seems to be to reduce the chance of speedy deletion on stub articles, for use on articles undergoing collaboration of the week projects, etc. A downside of using it is that some may view it as implying Wikipedia:Ownership of articles, which is of course not what the template actually says (it invites editing). There are mentions on the talk page for the template of removals of it after only a few hours of inactivity. Is there a real need for the template to be on the article? Buddhipriya 06:12, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe there are some spelling corrections you could work on over on the "Siva" article? Or perhaps you have some citations and references available for use in any of these articles? "Jyortalinga" is only a stub at the moment and that could have some lovely photographs if someone knew where to look for them. "Nyanmar" is also a bit of a muddle.

The "Under Construction" is up because I'm moving and duplicating chunks of this article, and don't always have time to make the transitions between paragraphs smooth and logical before I log off for the evening. In fact, portions of this article are merely notes to mark where sentences moved in the future might be inserted. Thank you for asking whether I thought I owned the article, but as you observe, the template (or "tag") does invite other editors. This article especially needs sourced references, so when you come up with some spare ones please consider visiting to share!

~ Otterpops 14:34, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Please note that the Underconstruction template has been proposed for deletion in the past, reflecting the concerns about its use which are described on the talk page for the template. Some editors, including myself, feel that it has the effect of being off-putting. A better approach would be to put the article up for a peer review within the Hinduism project, but I would do that only after a cleaning step to remove much of the unreliable material and move some items to related articles to get a more clear focus on the issue of the history. Can you help me understand why you feel that the Underconstruction tag should be used in this case? Buddhipriya 15:16, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality and Factual Accuracy

Please present specific (sourced) information to contradict, don't just scrawl "WRONG WRONG WRONG" across the page. Remember this is not an article about which religion is "The True Religion", this is a survey of some historical events. ~ Otterpops 14:38, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I recommend that the article be tagged as unreliable while it is worked on, which is what we have done with the Shiva article as well. I have recently decided to focus on a few articles in the Shiva group that need work in a coordinated way. At present all of the articles in this complex, such as Shiva, Shaivism, History of Shaivism. and Rudra are in very bad shape and are filled with misinformation. You may want to read over all four of those articles as a first step. To prevent forking, the first step is to determine what should be where. I have invited a couple of the editors who work on Hinduism articles to assist in thinking about cross-article organization. Shiva is a pan-Hindu god, and Tamil materials represent one particular regional perspective on him. Many of the Hinduism articles have problems with overgeneralization of regional beliefs and practices. All of the oldest source material is in Sanskrit.

Since much of what is in the article now is unreliable and almost a fork of other articles, as general strategy, one approach could be to start with fact-tagging or cutting the most dubious material and moving some material to the other articles (which will reduce article length). Item by item the remaining material can be strongly cited, but doing good citations takes time and needs to be done carefully. There is also a lot of material that is not mentioned in the article, and this can be added gradually in a strongly-cited manner. Buddhipriya 15:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm very happy to realize that at last some people with education in this material are giving time and attention to this article (these articles). Excellent! Especially good that there are several of you to work on it. As the "copyedit" tag is long-gone, I will continue on my copy-editing way and let the experts (and linguists) work in peace.

Note that the last thing I've done here is to move the non-History material I had segregated for that purpose. The transitions between sections may be clumsy so the UnderConstruction is up to cover you on that.

~ Otterpops 15:15, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Do you agree that a good first step would be to sort out which material should be moved elsewhere in order to prune the article? I want to be sure we are in agreement on that. If so, please use hidden notes in the article to indicate what you think can move. If I concur, I will move it out, otherwise I will place a comment here. I will put some hidden notes in the text elsewhere to flag some of the land mines I see. Buddhipriya 15:19, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Hurray!! Something useful and valuable!! I had absolutely no clue what the correct spelling of vibhuti might be, to fix that link. Unfortunately the linked article doesn't elaborate on the ingredients any further, hrm. Do understand that in the West contact between a person's skin and any kind of excrement (human or animal) is taboo and extremely disgusting, the ultimate in filth. It might be good to mention other ingredients too???

Okay, the sections I'd been collecting modern-day worship info into have been transported already. You'll find them all in the "Shaivism" article Discussion page for integration/distribution to anywhere they're needed.

Good luck with all this, and I shall see you around Wikipedia. Cheers! ~ Otterpops 16:04, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I wish that you would continue for a bit, as having someone who does not have a specific sectarian focus look at the material simply from the point of view of organization between articles is helpful. If you would also assist with identification of additional POV material it would be helpful. Buddhipriya 15:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

But I do have a specific sectarian focus - I am an adult American raised in fundamentalist Christian family, currently agnostic, reasonably well-educated and rather well-read. In other words I can anticipate how this information could be twisted, misinterpreted and ridiculed by a US-native audience while the Hindus bicker among themselves about fine points. There are people here who would be delighted to call the Saivites "Satanists" in shocked horror. (That's bad, just in case you don't know.) Someone has already written "God of Death" in the fact-box for the "Shiva" article.

How about this: you guys go to work on the constellation of articles and I'll retreat but keep History of Saivam on my watchlist. Every now and then I'll drop back in and have a read - if I see any language land-mines (as you put it so well) I'll make a note in the discussion.

~ Otterpops 16:04, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

You mentioned your background as representing a Christian viewpoint. I have very great respect for all religions, and it would be very helpful to have someone specifically watching the articles specifically to try to catch POV materials or things that may raise cross-cultural questions such as the issue about contact with ash made from cow dung. It would be very helpful if you would stay on the watch for this sort of thing so cultural sensitivities can be identified. We must always try to find ways to reach out and build more understanding between the great religions. All roads up the mountain meet at the peak. Buddhipriya 16:24, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reorganize by time periods

This article currently has a lot of forking issues with other other articles such as Shaivism, Shiva, Rudra, Six Schools of Shaivism, etc. The current text seems to be an article about regional Tamil practices. In looking at the articles for Christianity and History of Christianity they seem to have done a good job of getting the general material about the religion into the main article, and then organized the history by time periods. That may be a good approach for this article as well. However the regional method of organization that is used in Six Schools of Shaivism also is useful. Either way, the article on history now includes a good bit of material that needs to go elsewhere. Buddhipriya 22:09, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

To begin the process of citing things by time period I have stubbed in a historical outline by major periods. Additional material will be added from multiple sources, but to get something in place quickly I simply summarized key dates from the article on "The Śaiva Traditions" which in pp. 200-228 of Flood (2003). That article provides a quick overview of the main themes. The brief outline tries to distinguish between the pre-literate archaeological sources, the Vedic scriptural references, and then the major flow from Kashmir to the south, which is the most commonly-accepted academic view of Shaiva history. It clairifies that the material related to Tamilnadu represents a distinct stage of development and is not the whole story. Buddhipriya 21:59, 29 April 2007 (UTC)