Talk:History of Quebec French

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As a French person from France, let me add this: the French that was spoken at the Royal court was very different from the French of Paris and the Paris region, which is the standard from which the French language evolved. The people who migrated to New France (Quebec) and Louisiana certainly did not speak like the royal court. In particular, the royal court introduced the French R as it is pronounced today, but it is not until late in the 19th century that this R became widely accepted in standard French. People who went to New France pronounced the r like in Spanish, as did most people in France at the time. This is why while France was switching to modern day French R in the 19th century (this modern R being thought of as more "upper class"), Quebec French preserved the older thrilled r, which was used by all in the 17th century in France, then only by low-class people in the 19th century, then completely lost in the 20th century. On the other hand, while France switched the pronounciation of "oi" to /wa/ in the 19th century, Quebec French kept the old /we/ pronounciation, which indeed was used at the royal court, but was also used by everybody in France at the time of the colonization of New France. To say that the French of Quebec is rooted in the Royal French spoken at King Louis XIV's Court is a complete inacuracy, but I have heard this non-sense before. Pride knows no borders it seems. Hardouin 18:35, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I had already updated the analogous info at Joual, so I've copied a version of that material across. Hope this is helpful. Man vyi 18:08, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Reply to Hardouin

Hardouin, as a Quebecer from Quebec, let me answer you:

You asserted that: "the French that was spoken at the Royal court was very different from the French of Paris and the Paris region, which is the standard from which the French language evolved. "

This is true of the post-Revolution period, yes. I am not certain I would say that it was "very" different. This is all relative.

You then asserted that: "The people who migrated to New France (Quebec) and Louisiana certainly did not speak like the royal court. "

If you mean by this, that most were illiterate peasants with little education, you are certainly right. The Canadiens of New France spoke a French that sounded very much like the French of Paris just before the French revolution, but most did not read and write. They did not necessarily speak the eloquent French of the nobility, although some certainly did (not the habitants, but the local nobility and bourgeoisie). If you believe that the article gives a wrong impression, you are free to rephrase the sentences you found misleading or unclear.

The reason Quebecers are quick to point out that their /we/ pronunciation was also that of the French Royal court is because for many generations, they were told by ignorant people that this was unique to them, that it was a bad patois they should be ashamed of.

You then went on to write: "People who went to New France pronounced the r like in Spanish, as did most people in France at the time. This is why while France was switching to modern day French R in the 19th century (this modern R being thought of as more "upper class"), Quebec French preserved the older thrilled r, which was used by all in the 17th century in France, then only by low-class people in the 19th century, then completely lost in the 20th century. On the other hand, while France switched the pronounciation of "oi" to /wa/ in the 19th century, Quebec French kept the old /we/ pronounciation, which indeed was used at the royal court, but was also used by everybody in France at the time of the colonization of New France. "

Well, I assume you meant Francophones of France, not most or all people of France. As you know, in the 18th century, the majority of the people in the Kingdom of France and later in the French Republic did not speak French as their native language. The French of Quebec was for certain not inherited, nor rooted, in the French of the French court. There were some French nobles and also some French Canadian nobles in Canada, but not enough to have much influence on the regular people. However, the language taught in the collèges classiques was certainly very similar to that spoken by French upper class. As mentionned in the article, numerous literate visitors from France noted how good the French was in Canada, even in the "lower" classes. You can read on this subject in much detail here if you wish:

http://www.tlfq.ulaval.ca/axl/francophonie/HISTfrQC_s1_Nlle-France.htm (in French)

Finally, the cat comes out of the bag when you say: "To say that the French of Quebec is rooted in the Royal French spoken at King Louis XIV's Court is a complete inacuracy, but I have heard this non-sense before. Pride knows no borders it seems. "

Well, certainly if you misunderstood what is currently written in this article and thought it said that "Quebec French is rooted in the Royal French spoken at King Louis XIV's Court", then I can certainly agree with you that it is innacurate. However, since the article only says that the /we/ pronunciation (which is still common place in Quebec but not in France) is the same /we/ that was in usage in the Ancien régime, I can only suggest that you either read more carefully or rephrase whatever it is that mislead you.

As for "pride knowing no borders", well you seem to be a very good example of that. You had to come accross the Atlantic ocean and even accross a foreign language to try and take away Quebecers normal sense of pride in who they are and where they came from. I find this very small and I would have expected more from a national of the country of my ancestors... -- Mathieugp 18:18, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] "Vehicular" language

I did a double take when I first read the phrase "vehicular language", and I think most general readers will as well. Out of context, a lot of people would understand it as "language used by vehicles or in vehicles", although the real meaning here is apparent from context. Is this an established phrase in English? Or is it a loan translation from langue véhiculaire? If it is an established phrase, I think it is known only to specialists. I would suggest "dumbing it down" a bit for general readers. I'm not sure what the best replacement would be: maybe just "common language". Indefatigable 6 July 2005 22:41 (UTC)

The Grand dictionnaire terminologique says that vehicular language is a term used in linguistics and that it is a quasi-synonym of lingua franca. I am not sure why it is considered only a quasi-synonym, especially since searching for langue véhiculaire tells us that it is a synonym of lingua franca. I am not sure which is better between lingua franca, vehicular language and common language, but since lingua franca already has an article, I am tempted to use that term. What do you think? -- Mathieugp 6 July 2005 22:59 (UTC)
Lingua franca should do the trick. Most literate English-speakers will understand it readily. Indefatigable 7 July 2005 20:19 (UTC)

"There is also the inevitable fact that Quebec French speakers have lived alongside and among English speakers for two and a half centuries" -- I don't think we want "inevitable" here. Changing to "undeniable" - 3 january 2006