Talk:History of Mac OS

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In many ways System 7 can be considered the worst mistake in Apple's history. By defining a new and very large set of OS features, the possibility of running the Mac OS on top of a kernel became impossible for years.

Huh? --Brion

argh. too many non-existent subpage links. also: someone who actually uses a Mac want to add something on OS X 10.2? --AW

You left out System 7.5.2, quite possibly the worst computer operating system in history. I'm sure Apple thanks you for it, though. John

Contents

[edit] Dates

Some dates for the various releases would be nice. Dan100 16:59, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)

I agree, I opened this page to suggest it, and found it already had been... anyone out there have a reliable source for these? I'm happy to add them to the article. Graham 05:08, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Shameful

This is pretty shameful when compared to History of Microsoft Windows, we should all try and improve it to that standard. — Wackymacs 15:53, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

  • OK, well having said that not long ago, I decided to do some major edits myself. I've added screenshots of the major versions of the OS, added two lead paragraphs, added the Mac OS classic logo, added more details in the first history section and the System 7 section, added a see also section. I think its much better now, but there's still quite a bit of work left to do. — Wackymacs 17:25, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] OS 9 version bump

From the section on OS 9

In fact the only reason that the version was increased from 8 to 9 was to pave the way for the upcoming Mac OS X, rather than leave a gap in the version numbers which might have discouraged some to make the eventual transition from classic Mac OS to Mac OS X

I thought it was widely understood that the version bump from OS 8 to 9 was a way to get out of the cloning market. It was thought that all the cloners had rights to "MacOS 8", so Apple bumped the version to 9, so they wouldn't have to distribute it to the third party computer manufacturers. Nonetheless, the stated reason doesn't even make sense to me. All sorts of apps skip versions with impunity - and I can't think of why anyone wouldn't transition to OSX because there wasn't an OS 9 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.177.128.131 (talk)

It wasn't cloners; the cloning program cut off with Mac OS 8, not 9. Nevertheless, you're right in pointing out the speculation. I've removed it and plan on giving the article a closer look. -- Steven Fisher 05:32, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] System 5 did not technically exist

The section of "System 5" is I believe is technically inaccurate. No system named "System 5" was ever released by Apple. What has been referred to as System 5 was only ever referred to as "System Software 5.0" by Apple. It combined System 4.2, Finder 6.0 and MultiFinder 1.0. I think this section should be rewritten to clarify this situation. It does seem though that some people refer to System Software 5.0/5.1 as System 5, though I can find no instance where Apple ever used the name. As such it probably should be made clear that their was no system kernel version 5. --Cab88 18:16, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, the same applies to System 6. It only started to get called that when System 7 was on the horizon, and as far as I know not by Apple, but only by users. Apple released system releases as e.g. 'System 6.0.3' which included various different system and Finder versions, but this was no different from the earlier System 5 releases. However it's a convenient term to use in retrospect anyway. Graham 04:57, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I've gone and change the refernces to "System 5" (and 6) "to System Software 5" (and 6) as it's the official name Apple used. While their does not seem to be an official Wikipedia policy on this, I think we should stick to the offical names of software used by the manufucaturers and not use nicknames or shortened names, even if commonly used by the software's users. --Cab88 19:11, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] System 7 paragraph

I am a Mac user but afraid I don't know quite enough about this period to rewrite the following paragraph in the System 7 section that really needs sorting:

Systems 7.1 and 7.5 introduced a large number of "high level" additions, considered by some to be less well thought-out than they could have been. Some of the most confusing were the reliance on countless System Enablers to support new hardware (which plagued the Mac OS all the way to version 8.1, after when the iMac introduced the New World architecture. Although the iMac itself requires a system enabler with Mac OS 8.1, as other Macs released at that time, Macs released after the iMac do not require a system enabler, and of course the iMac system enabler was included as part of version 8.5.) and various System update extensions with inconsistent version numbering schemes. Overall stability and performance also gradually worsened during this period which introduced PowerPC support and 68K emulation.
  • What are "high level" additions?
  • Who exactly considered them to be "less well thought out"?
  • What "could they have been"?
  • Were those System Enablers literally "countless"? I doubt it!
  • Did these System Enablers "plague" the Mac OS??
  • What is the New World architecture? The wikilink given for New World goes to something completely un-technology related
  • Although the iMac itself requires a system enabler with Mac OS 8.1, as other Macs released at that time, Macs released after the iMac do not require a system enabler, and of course the iMac system enabler was included as part of version 8.5.) - this sentence is a mess, unfortunately I'm not sure I know enough about the subject to fix it. Why was the iMac system enabler included "of course" in 8.5??
  • Also there's a lot to do with Mac OS 8 when this section is about System 7
  • Overall stability and performance also gradually worsened during this period which introduced PowerPC support and 68K emulation. - citation needed? Which period is being talked about?

Sorry if this is a bit negative - I just feel this whole section needs a good going over but I'm not the one to do it (though I'll happily provide constructive criticism!) Heycos 21:19, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

It's more than just one paragraph; there's a lot of NPOV violations in the System 7 section. Observe:
"System 7.1 also introduced the hated System Enablers as a method to support new models without updating the actual System file. While a good idea, it was poorly implemented and the multitude of System Enablers needed reached absurd levels during the System 7.5 era."
Hated? Absurd levels? That seems to me about as non-NPOV as it gets for a technical analysis. It seems as though nobody has addressed the concerns Heycos raised above more than a year ago. Perhaps restructuring this whole section to be consistent with the flow of the System 6 section above would yield appropriate results for all concerns. Do other people have a view here, or should I just go ahead and take a crack at it? -- Scott Swanson 15:39, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Scott Swanson. The facts are that SOME Macs required an enabler for a particular version of System 7. The Mac Plus & Mac SE NEVER needed an enabler. As Apple added hardware the enablers are actually drivers that allow the hardware to work. At most, one enabler was needed for a particular Mac. Here is the official Apple document on enablers.

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=11491

Enablers are no different than Windows drivers for video, sound, network, firmware etc. The number of enablers for the Mac is quite small compared to the number of different drivers for Windows machines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.5.167.61 (talk) 21:19, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Atari port?

I seem to have stumbled across an image of an Atari port[1] of Mac OS 2. I can't find any more information about this, though. --StuartBrady (Talk) 14:21, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

As I understand it, Amigas and Ataris were able to run fairly speedy Mac emulators because they used the same CPU architecture. What you saw is probably not an official port, but Standard Mac OS running under some sort of emulation. You usually needed a card for the Mac ROMs to make these things work. See, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectre_GCR -- Forkazoo 21:28, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Odd focus on Microsoft in introduction

Is it just me, or is the second paragraph bizarre:

In 1984, Apple partnered with Microsoft, in an agreement where Microsoft would create versions of Word and Excel (then named MultiPlan) for the Mac OS. For the majority of the 1980s, the Mac OS lacked a large amount of compatible software.

Compatible...with what? Now, I know this is original research, but personally, I found the "large amount" of Mac software I had to be fairly compatible with my Macintosh. For the majority of the 1980s. I guess that would be 1984 to 1989. Or, in my case, 1985 to 1989. Dammit, maybe he's right.
As for MultiPlan, Excel, et al, I do suppose it's a good thing that Apple somehow convinced Microsoft to make tons of money in WYSIWYG office software for the Mac instead of releasing exclusively on Windows Zero. ~ RVJ 21:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Mac OS X" is not the same 'name' as "Mac OS".

At present, the OS X section starts with "While it technically retains the same name as its predecessors, Mac OS X is largely independent." The name of the product, from 7.6 to 9.2 was "Mac OS". From 10.0 onward, it is "Mac OS X" (The server version has a proper name of "Mac OS X Server".) Then there is a version number, sometimes the version number is appended directly to the end of the name, sometimes it has "version" between the name and the number, this varies by version. This is a similar name, not the same. (As others have mentioned, before 7, the proper name was "Macintosh System Software" with a version number, then from 7.0 to 7.5.5, it was "System 7", which could be modified with the version number.) In addition, starting with 10.2, the 'cat' name became an official part of the name of that version number. The main product is "Mac OS X", the version number is, in the latest as of this writing, 10.4.10, and the name of the version is Tiger. That makes it Mac OS X Tiger, version 10.4.10. Also, 7.5.1 was the first version to say "Mac OS" on startup, but the name of the OS wasn't officially changed until 7.6.

So, as examples, we have "Macintosh System Software version 6.0.7", "System 7 Pro, version 7.1.1", "Mac OS 8.1", "Mac OS X Server version 1.0", "Mac OS X Panther 10.3.5" (Note that the Rhapsody releases were not 10.x numbers, "Mac OS X Server" was the name, and 1.0 was the version number.) Ehurtley 01:30, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Mac OS X Leopard free.png

Image:Mac OS X Leopard free.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 04:42, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:MacOS 152mm 4c.png

Image:MacOS 152mm 4c.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 04:57, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Macintosh XL?

The Macintosh XL stands as a curious departure, having been sort of an internal clone in a way. However, the Mac OS history article makes no mention of the Macintosh XL at all, and the Lisa only as a historical precursor (or co-development, by certain implication). Since the Lisa actually was grafted into the Macintosh lineage at some point, it becomes a historical point for Mac OS. Should we not then include it somewhere? -- Scott Swanson 15:49, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. MacWorks is an important footnote in the operating system as it was the first time that both the Macintosh ROM and System were emulated on another computer. A major precursor to the infamous "Pink" port onto IBM PCs as well as subsequent third party emulators and ultimately Apple's own port of Classic into OS X and OS X's eventual cross-compatibility with PCs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Woodwynlane (talk • contribs) 16:46, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why No Links?

Why are there no links on this Wiki page, like every other Wiki page out there and encourage by "Wikipedia:The perfect article"? There are some excellent external links that help clarify the information here. Before I waste my time, I would like to confirm that they are welcome, given the age of this article.--Woodwynlane 16:51, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Mac OS 9 screenshot 2.jpg

Image:Mac OS 9 screenshot 2.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 07:01, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Notes/References

This is an excellent candidate for a split notes/references system as on this article Alcibiades.

Basically this introduces a letter system for indicating additional informational notes and the standard numerical system for source references. As this article expands, there is relevant ancillary info the should be included, but would otherwise be distracting or detract from the focus of the primary article. The notes are then organized in one section which make for stand-alone additional reading within the article (with back-references to the main sections) and keeps the source references which are otherwise not intended for additional reading, but expanding on source citations, in a separate easily skipped section.--Mac128 (talk) 19:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dates

Moved this discussion from my talk page to the article talk page:

  • Do you think we should change system software release dates back to the month/year only, since (to me) it seems impossible to find references for each exact date. What do you think? — Wackymacs (talk) 06:47, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Hi all. I just tried trawling around Google's UseNet archive and didn't find much -- it looks like Apple treated the OS entirely as freeware for the first few years. People were probably not encouraged to upgrade in the spirit of "if it ain't broke." Apple was focused on delivering and supporting new products rather than maintaining an integrated OS. As such, why not focus on those products: "Apple delivered the Mac Plus in whenever, 1986, which was supported by the System file 3.0." Same with HD20, MacWrite 4.5, etc. There might not be great sources that the software wasn't released before those other products, but it certainly wasn't released after and "leaks" would be a historical footnote anyway.
  • As for explicitly "bringing" this article to GA/FA, I'd rather not, for exactly the reason WackyMacs states. Internal sources are unreliable, and no sources are better than unreliable sources. Online resources are thin because few have cared enough to build history websites. And those who do are not scholarly enough to match WP's standards. If you ask me, many details are trivial anyway. That said, there is an enormous body of print documentation because small details were important to programmers of the time. MacWorld and MacUser archives are relatively accessible, including to me :::*v), so I'll try & go to the library next week and check the appropriate months for software update announcements. Really it's surprising there were so few. But anyway, hurrying the development process on this article could do more harm than damage, because the required sources aren't all online. Potatoswatter (talk) 11:44, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Also, there's only so much that release dates can convey. This article also needs basic architectural information, such as the interplay between INITs, the System file, the Enabler, and the ROM, so the reader can understand the context of "releasing a System update." Potatoswatter (talk) 11:47, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
  • I agree. But I also think in the stated goals of Potatoswatter and Wackymacs everything included must have a valid reference. Whether one thinks any detail is trivial or otherwise is irrelevant. Cumulatively, such details for a picture which a researcher or casual user can use to formulate a complete picture: in much the same way specific dates in John Adams' life may seem trival to some, but important to others. And like the Adams' entry, only important dates get days. For the most part events in his life do not eve get months, but only years. As Wackymacs points out, the specific day is less relevant for these software releases since that detail does not relate to anything: was it the creation date, announcement by Apple, shipping date, or the street date? Month and day are sufficient and certainly easier to reliably source. But the months are important to show the rapid (or slow) changes in it's development, unlike Adams' who might spend three months just traveling one way.
  • Agreed! Month/Year only will make it a lot easier...at least for the old stuff. The newer stuff is really easy to find sources for (like OS 8/9/X). — Wackymacs (talk) 16:31, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mac OS 8 non-neutral

I'm gonna go ahead and claim Mac OS 8 is non neutral. It seems to be written by someone who focuses very much on the underlying OS, e.g. implying very few significant new features. Who defines significant? To most of Apple's fanbase, Mac OS 8 was VERY significant. It showed that Apple could create innovative ideas. That they could produce a dramatic facelift. And that their new development was getting somewhere. Mac OS 8, had many significant new features. Take the ability to use a picture as a desktop background; this was something Windows 3.1 & 95 had, that Mac OS 7.6 didn't. Mac OS 8 did, and to an average user, putting a pic of your favorite band on the desktop is significant. Same with contextual menus, spring-loaded folders, or even new appearance controls. It made the Mac OS new. Sure, the core was still the same, but who knew about the core? It just did stuff in the background.Ryaxnb (talk) 20:49, 5 May 2008 (UTC)