Talk:History of Kiev

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[edit] The intent is to make this a Featured article.

[edit] Discussion on image copyrights moved to subpage Talk:History of Kiev/Image copyright issues

(lets' continue there. --Irpen 15:09, August 22, 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Oppression vs dominance

Regarding the correction: in "Polish Catholic dominance" vs "oppression", I agree that "dominance" is a softer term, which we may keep for now as a less controversial. However, I want to make sure I understand the call to "cite sources". Is this a call for sources that would say that the policies of PLC towards Orthodoxy have, with time, evolved to what amounts to oppression? To start with, I can refer anyone to Kostomarov (for sure not a Polonophobe among the Historians in the RU Empire). There is even a discussion at his talk. I could quickly look up for more on this from other respected historians. Did I understand the "cite sources" call correctly? It just happens that this seemed to me too obviously known. I am not claiming this is how it was. All I am saying, is that many historical works say so without a doubt. --Irpen 19:27, August 22, 2005 (UTC)

Ok, I reread several chapters from Kostomarov myself. If anyone doubts that the word "oppression" is appropriate, I recommend reading the chapters from his book devoted to the following historic figures available online: Bohdan Khmelnytsky [1], Konstanty Wasyl Ostrogski [2], Peter Mogila[3]. Not only Kostomarov is known for his views at times deviating from "official" line of thought in the RU Empire. The conclusion I make here, is based not on his opinions, but on the quotes he makes from official documents and the older chronicles. I could find his book online only in Russian, sorry. Additionally, I recommend the following chapters from modern Britannica's "History of Ukraine" article:

  • Lithuanian and Polish rule
    • Social changes
    • Religious developments
  • The Cossacks
    • The Khmelnytsky Insurrection
    • The Ruin
    • The autonomous hetman state and Sloboda Ukraine

If EB's "History of UA" article isn't enough, I can recommend EB's "History of PL" article, particularly the following subsections of "The Commonwealth" chapter: "Wladyslaw IV Vasa", "The Cossacks", "Bohdan Khmelnytsky". I happen to have full access to EB and these are just a couple of quotes:

"...Ukraine was “colonized” by both Polish and Ukrainian great nobles. Most of the latter gradually abandoned Orthodoxy to become Roman Catholic and Polish. These “little kings” of Ukraine controlled hundreds of thousands of “subjects”... The new Eastern-rite church became a hierarchy without followers while the forbidden Eastern Orthodox church was driven underground. Wladyslaw's recognition of the latter's existence in 1632 may have come too late. The Orthodox masses—deprived of their native protectors, who had become Polonized and Catholic—turned to the Cossacks."

it goes further:

" The heavy-handed behaviour of the “little kings,”... was resented even by small nobles and burghers. Growing socioeconomic antagonisms combined with religious tensions."

Can we return "oppression" in view of this? --Irpen 00:51, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

Well, apart from the official recognition of Greek Catholic church (initially simply an Orthodox church accepting the Roman pope) was hardly a means of oppression. Note that there were no religious unrests because of that and the shift in denomination was peaceful (more like a peaceful change of government as opposed to civil-warish style of religious changes in other countries.
May I suggest you reread the quote above. Also, I agree that imposition of Unia on the population, was indeed a softer form of proselytising than that's time standard, but one can't seriously argue about its goals as well as the consequences. -Irpen
Also, a large number of eastern nobles (most notably in Belarus and eastern Ukraine) remained Orthodox even until the partitions - yet their powers were not limited.
Their powers were not limited in ruling their subjects, yes. But this effectively banned them from making a career to the upper echelons of the commonwealth. Treaty of Hadiach came later and was never implemented. That's another of "what ifs".
Also, the colonization seems like a term coined by Russian historiography, without much support in reality, as most of the Ruthenian magnates traced their roots to Kievan Ruthenia and even earlier. They were there when Lithuania conquered these lands, they retained their position when Poland overtook Ukraine, they remained there when Russia annexed it. The same set of families ruled the land since times immemorial - it was hardly a colonization or a take-over.
Who "coined" the term may argued without end. Certainly, different myths prevail in the history taught in Poland and to the East of it. The usage of this term here is noted by Britannica, which is neither RU, nor UA, nor PL written version of history. EB is known to be careful in the choice of words. We can argue how appropriate the term is, but the world historiography views it appropriate as per above. --Irpen
If we seek some proof of oppression, then the magnate's actions during and after the Chmielnicki's uprising come to my mind. However, although Ukraine was indeed drowned in blood, it was hardly an unpreceded action or a means of opression for itself (note the number of victims on both sides). But this seems like a completely different story. Halibutt 08:07, August 24, 2005 (UTC)
This is a different story, though connected with the original one. If I am not mistaken, I think you told somewhere that you can read Russian. Then may I suggest you take a look at the ref link I added to Konstanty Wasyl Ostrogski on the issue. --Irpen 17:29, August 24, 2005 (UTC)
I will reply here to all your comments, I personally hate it when someone divides my comments and puts his in the middle. It's much harder to follow the discussion and distinguish who said what.
As to colonization - the very term suggests that there was a huge number of settlers comming there. And indeed that's what Russian and Soviet historiography was trying to prove for the last 150 years: that the Poles living outside of the Medieval borders of Poland were in fact people from abroad, who moved to historically Russian (Russian, not Ruthenian) lands - to opress local people and so on. I've read about similar concepts in Ukrainian books as well; some historians there argue that the fact that the area of Lviv was inhabitated by a huge number of Poles was due to the fact that the local medieval Ukrainians were expelled and their place taken by Poles from the West.
Anyway, the guy you quoted uses the term colonization, though he probably might've meant cultural expansion rather than factual movement of settlers, since there was barely any such move until 1921 (up to 80.000 vets settled in lands formerly belonging to the tsar and his officials). Of course, people were moving through all of the Commonwealth, both eastwards and westwards, but the political and cultural dominance of the Polish culture in the east had hardly anything to do with colonization.
As to Hadziacz - this is indeed one of my favourite what-ifs and perhaps the last call for the Commonwealth to be saved. However, I fail to understand the rest of your statement. Of course, the Wiśniowiecki family had to adopt Catholicism in order to become kings, but this was a rather special case. Until infamous Jarema Wiśniowiecki their family fared quite well - after all they ruled the bigger part of Ukraine within the Commonwealth. Same for many others, who often were voivods or marshals. Just take a look at the number of Orthodox churches in the Ukraine built by local Orthodox nobles and the titles they received. Of course, with time (and the advent of the Vasas, perhaps the worst rulers we ever had) the religious tolerance diminished, but still the conflict was with the protestants, not with the Orthodox.
As to the link you posted - it seems like a fine example of 19th century style of Russian historiography, but mostly in style and not in choice of facts. So, if anything was done against Russia - it was wrong, just like the case of bad Świdrygiełło who put his comrade in arms in prison just for fun, while one of the guys "hated Poland so much that he invited the Tartars to invade it". Apart from the style, king Jagiełło "filling Russian lands with Catholic churches and giving Russian lands to Catholics" seems quite improbable. There aren't many late mediaeval catholic churches in the east, not even in Lwów (the cathedral there is one of the oldest, I guess). Also, you might find it funny that the only chapel he founded for the Wawel cathedral, a sacred place for most Poles even nowadays and sort of our national pantheon - is decorated in Byzantine paintings and was most probably an Orthodox chapel. Quite a nice example of ecumenism, don't you think? :)
Also, the interpretation of the Magdeburg Law as one of the means of oppression seems a complete rubbish. At that time it was granted to several thousands of villages and towns all around Central Europe. Of course it gave the locals greater rights than those granted by other local rulers. After all the main purpose of granting such self-governance and authonomy was to speed-up the development of the towns. Even Kraków was "re-located" on Magdeburg law, which soon became a problem for the nearby towns that could not develop as fast due to different legislation. Also, the Magdeburg law was not, as the author suggest, granted only to "new towns settled with Poles and Germans". It was granted to cities as old and multi-cultural as Lwów, Wrocław or Kraków, not to mention most towns in Silesia and Lesser Poland.
The author's remark that the boyars were admitted to szlachta only when they converted to Catholicism is wrong as well. The szlachta was quite a multi-cultural group and Jagiełło was the one to grant noblety to Tartars he settled in Poland and Lithuania. Yes, you guessed it: some of the szlachta were Muslim. Ostrogski, Radziwiłł, Sapieha or any other family of eastern provenience were also granted the same rights, eventhough they did not become Catholics until after several hundred years. Also, the author's remark that "although Casimir did not openly persecute Orthodox, he did not stop the expansion of Catholicism" seems fishy, as he suggests that there was something going on behind the scenes. Also, the analisis of where the aristocracy came from seems like a decent set of propaganda. The guy suggests that as long as there were local authoritarian rulers, there was everything ok with Ruthenia. However, as soon as Poland-Lithuania took over, the local nobles started to be the sole rulers. Yet, the guy does not mention that they had even greater powers before Poland or Lithuania arrived there. To add more to the confusion, he describes the end of medieval liberties of Ruthenian peasantry as if it was a special case, a process completely different from what happened in Masovia, Lesser Poland, Samogitia or Pomerania. While it was not, in every other part of the country (except for Masovia, where it never succeeded due to a huge percentage of szlachta there) the situation of peasantry worsened. Which of course can't be said of Muscovy, where the peasants never had similar rights - yet the author does not mention that fact.
And so on, and so forth. Basically, there is something fishy in almost all of the remarks in the link you provided. I'll try to finish the part in my spare time, but so far I got tired a tad. Halibutt 22:41, August 24, 2005 (UTC)

Halibutt, I am sorry I replied above in the manner that you "personally hate". I signed the responces and it seemed clear to me who said what. That you have different preferences, I had no way of knowing. I also sorry you "fail to understand the rest of my statement". Tell me which statement, I will try to rephrase it in better English.

Now, let's first separate two issues: your general disagreement with a particular scholarship and the issue at hand, which is whether it's appropriate to use "oppression" in the article (which is History of Kiev and not Polonization, Polonophobia, Kostomarov or the cryticism of his books). The quote from Britannica alone justifies it, I think. The EB isn't infallible of course, but its History of PL article cannot possibly be Polonophobic, since it must be written by some respectable scholar at EB's request, and most historians tend to be more philic rather than phobic towards the nation they study as their lifetime jobs. Then again, EB may be mistaken, but it is a very solid source which makes it up to a challenger to disprove with no less respectable sources. If you want to take this upon, I will be glad to help with other encyclopedias. I have full access to several and can look this up for you.

Now, I would be interested in your opinion when you finish reading, but would you mind moving this discussion to talk:Nikolay Kostomarov? BTW, I had a discussion there with another editor, which I hope, you find interesting. I say, let's move this there. What do you say? --Irpen 02:44, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] When was Kiev founded?

The article now claims that "Kiev was probably founded in the 5th century". This claim appears to be far-fetched as the date of the 5th century appeared only during Brezhnev era to suit the political demand for the celebration of the 1500th anniversary of Kiev. Archeological arguments sometimes raised to support the 5th century hypothesis are not adequate to confirm the existence of a city because people settled on hills near rivers since the stone age and in this fashion nearly every major European city can be asserted to be thousands years old. The accepted UNESCO standard for the date of city founding is the date when the city was first mentioned in written documents. By this standard, Kiev was fonded in the 8th century because the first written mentioning of Kiev was in a letter sent by Khozar Jews to a synagogue of Fustat, near Cairo. Arabic sources also first mention Kiev at about the same time.--Pecher 22:06, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi Pecher, you are of course right. This has already been brought up in Kiev's talk before the History of Kiev got spun out into a separate article. See Talk:Kiev/Archive03#How_old_is_Kiev.3F.
I am afraid we can't do much better than that. Encyclopedias don't reflect truth, they reflect knowledge. Since it is widely considered that Kiev is 1500 years old, we have to mention it even though the reasons of this thinking may be influenced by non-historiographic events. OTOH, it would be a good idea to elaborate in the article on what you wrote above. Would you do it? --Irpen 04:10, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pritsak

The text below was added to an article by some anonymous editor. It is in a total disconnect with the rest of the article and doesn't fit in current form, if at all. Moved to talk for now. --Irpen 06:17, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Irpen,

Why did you remove this text from the main body of the article on the history of Kyiv? I took it from an article by the respected Ukrainian historian Omeljan Pritsak, and it seems to be to be directly relevant to the question of when the city of Kyiv was founded, and by which people. --203.129.40.172 00:47, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Pritsak, in his essay "The Pre-Ashkenazic Jews of Eastern Europe" (in the book "Ukrainian-Jewish Relations in Historical Perspective") states his belief that Kyiv was founded as a stronghold by the Khazars in the first half of the ninth century, based on the archaeological finds of the Saltovo culture discovered in the city in the 1970s. According to Pritsak, the Saltovo culture was typical for all Khazarian strongholds of the ninth-tenth centuries. With the opening of trade routes, first (after 843) the land route Regensburg-Itil and then (after 880) the fluvial route "from the varangians to the Greeks", Kyiv acquired importance as the trading station Sambata (literally "Saturday", as the market was held there on that day). Pritsak claims to have established the Khazarian origin of the toponymy of old Kyiv as represented in the Rus' Primary Chronicle; those claims are presented in his book "Khazarian Hebrew Documents of the Tenth Century", published jointly with Norman Golb.

Pritsak states that the original inner town of Kyiv consisted of only one borough (konets), the "Kopyrev konets", a name derived from the important Khazar tribal group "Kabar/Kapyr". In the twelfth century the borough had two gates: the "Podol" gate connected "Kopyrev konets" with the commercial industrial suburb (Podol), while the "Zhidovskye" or "Jewish" gate linked the (later) "Iaroslav town" (imperial Kyiv after 1030) with this borough. The western and southern areas of the affluent "Kopyrev konets" were still called "Zhidove", or "the Jews", in the eleventh and twelfth centuries. In the commercial suburb of Podol, the main district was called "Kozare", or "the Khazars"; there, near the harbour on the Pochaina stream, was the Khazarian customs office (Pasyncha beseda).

Pritsak also considers the so-called Kievan Letter discovered by the Hebrew scholar Norman Golb among Hebrew texts from the Cairo Geniza to be a further indication of the continuing presence of Khazar converts to Judaism in Kyiv in the tenth century. He considers that the Kievan Letter was issued around 930 by the Jewish community of Kyiv ("modi'im anu lachem kahal shel Kiyyov" = "we, the community of Kyiv, inform you"). He states that the names of the signatories are of both Hebrew and Khazarian origin. Of special importance is that the father of one signatory had the designation "Kybr", which according to Pritsak is the usual Hunnic equivalent to the Turkic form "Kabar/Kapyr". Pritsak considers that that finding connects the Kievan letter and the "Kopyrev konets" of the Kievan Primary Chronicle.

Below is my email exchange with the author of this text. Since it includes nothing personal and is strictly article-related, I am posting it here. --Irpen 01:37, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
I think the addition may be valuable, but in that form we

could not use it directly. If I viewed it as nonsense, I would have deleted it, not moved to talk.

The article should present the mainstream versions as the main ones.

Interesting alternatives by acknowledges scholars may be mentioned as well but not such that they create an impression of being eqaully accepted in general. I will try to work something out of your version when I get to it. --Irpen

Irpen, Thanks for your response. Perhaps the answer would be to have Pritsak's thesis about the origin of Kyiv contained in a separate article linked to a reference in the main body of the article on the history of that city. (author of the text above)
I totally agree with your suggestion. I am just not able right now to write such an article but I will do all I can to help you should you be willing to start one. --Irpen
There should be a separate Foundation of Kiev article where such arguments belong. The controversy regarding the foundation of Kiev is sufficiently notable to merit an article of its own. Pecher Talk 09:16, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Destruction of Kiev in 1920

Comments (and especially references) about this somewhat dubious event are welcome at Talk:Kiev_Offensive#Recent_Irpen.27s_edit.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 22:22, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pro-Ukrainian vs Nationalist

I changed "pro-Ukrainian" to "nationalist" for clarity. "pro-Ukrainian" implies that there were only two positions, the other one being, presumably, "pro-Russian". This muddles matters somewhat. The political landscape consisted of several dynamics: the pro v anti soviet aspect, the nationalist v non-nationalist bit, and the language problem (Russian v Ukrainian v Something in between). This seems like an excessively long explanation of a single word edit, but I think the merit is there. Terms like "pro-Ukrainian" can mean alot of things or nothing at all, and should be chosen carefully. If I missed the point (ie: the editor meant "intelectuals favoring the use of the Ukranian language" rather than nationalists), then the sentence should be reverted and qualified.

On a similar note, there ought to be some discussion of the interaction of Ukrainian and Russian in Kiev (and in Ukraine as a whole), in brief, because the question isn't simple. Ukrainian and Russian are not particulary distinct (meaning there is no clear geographical boundary that indicates "east of here:Russian, west of here:Ukrainian"). I'd go so far as to point out that almost nowhere in Ukraine is "text-book" Ukrainian spoken: the variations are great, progressing from "pure" Ukrainian in Galicia to "pure" Russian well within Russia itself. Between the two extremes, lies an entire spectrum that mixes the two in varrying quantities. Kiev Ukrainian lies closer to the Ukrainian end, of course, but is heavily diluted by Russian, this is not a simple product of the dominance of one language over the other, although this played an undeniable role, so much as it is the exponent of the normal interplay between the two. Just a suggestion. 128.197.130.220 18:16, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Anonymous, please register. Now, maybe pro-Ukrainian is not the best way to say here, but "nationalist" is even worse. People who simply wanted to use Ukainian in the capital of Ukraine were usually not nationalist. I personally know of a person who came to study in the main national University in 70s from the small Oblast town (obviously Ukrainophone) only to find out that in that the instruction of the main University in UA was totally in Russian. Being just graduated from the Ukrainian schools, the need to "adjust" was not only difficult, but humiliating for him. When he graduated and stayed at the department as an employee, all he wanted is to keep speaking Ukrainian at work. While not explicitly prohibited from doing so, he was subtly pressured to seize all throughout his career. Now, maybe his story is an exaggeration but there are many more stories like that. My personal account is also not a veryfiable reference for an article but it is OK as an illustration at talk. Please give it a thought, register and welcome to to continue the discussion. --Irpen 19:18, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More references for 20th Kiev

Would be appreciated. Hamm's 'Kiev: a portrait' ends in 1917: could anybody recommend any English language book or academic article which would have information on history of Kiev after 1917? I have access to a major US library center and would like to see if any book has information on the accusation discussed two sections above. I couldn't find a single useful book for 20th century history of Kiev in English using Google Print, Schoolar and Amazon. On the sidenote, I'd suspect there should be much more material written in Russian and Ukrainian. Unfortunately I can't help with that, as I have no proficiency in these languages,--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:30, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question regarding an event

I have a book which mentions a "Kiev Massacre" of Jews that occurred in the 1880s. From this article I can only find the event in the 1940s. Does anyone have any information that might assist me? Thanks for replying via my talk page. – Freechild (¡!¡!¡!¡) 03:06, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

The article about 1881 pogrom has not been written yet. But we have Kiev pogrom (1919) and Kiev pogrom (1905). --Irpen 04:23, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some corrections to the main article

According to other quite reliable sources Batu Kaani (Khan) conquered Kioava (Kijev) on December 6, 1240 thus ending the Kijev (Kievan) Rus Principality. The Mongols devasted the mainly wooden town quite completely. One can read an eye witnesser describtion of the time five years later; They laid a siege a long while vnto Kiow, the chiefe citie of Russia, and at lenght (December 6, 1240) they took it and slue the citizents. Whereupon, traveiling throught that countrey, wee found an innumerable multitude of dead men skulles and bones lying here and there all vpon the earth. For it was a very large and a popolous citie, but it is nowe (1246) in a manner brought to nothing for there doe scrace remaine 200 houses, the inhabitants whereof are kept in extreame bondage. This by Franciscane monk Ion de Plano Carpini from his Finnish version text "Mongolien mailla" (On the lands of Mongols), also published in English with the title "The long and wonderful voyage of Frier Iohn de Plano Carpini".

Also the truth of the Soviet installed radio controlled time fused mines in Kiev in 1941 is much more interesting than in main article published typical Soviet War Propaganda based exaggerating version. The Germans lost total less than 350 soldiers (in the first main explosion in their local military adminstration center alone about 250 deads) and they managed to de-active about 85 per cent of the installed mines. I hope I have time to describe the full story why the Germans were able (with Finnish help) to prevent the total destruction of Kiev by these radio mines. Example of the German Engineering Troops work was the Kiev main Railway Station building, which in fact was exploded by the Germans themselves during theit retreat in October 1943. If someone is interested to see photos of the station building still standing intact on September 13, 1943 and the actual explosion they are available in page 164 in the "Lokomotiven ziehen in den Krieg Band 3" published by Verlag Josef Otto Slezak, Wien 1980. ISBN 3-900134-64-2. The station building was built according to drawings made by Architect A. Verbiski in 1932. After the war it was completely rebuilt by the Soviet Union. On page 161 are photos of the Dniepr southern railway bridge between Kiev II and Darnitsa as repaired by the Germans taken on March 7, 1943 and after it was exploded by the retreating Germans on September 29, 1943. The northern railway bridge was photographed on May 25 and October 7, 1942 in page 161. This bridge was opened into service by RVD Kiew on December 15, 1942. More photos are available in Band 1, ISBN 3-900134-23-5 Wien 1977, pages 151 and 155 taken during the German evacuation of Kiev in September 1943. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.87.13 (talk) 06:01, 26 September 2007 (UTC)