Talk:History of Georgia (country)

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[edit] Official date of Christianity in Georgia

…Christianity became established as a state religion of Kartli-Iberia in the 327 A.D. T.E.Dowling

Christianity was adopted as a State religion in 327 AD, under the influence of Saint Nino… D.M.Lang

...Christianity became an official religion of Iberia in about 327 A.D...... Allen

Orthodox Church sources:

The active history of Christianity in Georgia begins with the missionary activities of Nino of Cappadocia beginning in 303. By 317 her message reached the rulers of the eastern and western kingdoms of Georgia when King Miriam II of Iberia (Eastern Georgia) and Queen Nana of Western Georgia adopted Christianity as the state religion. The Christianization of Georgia progressed over the next several centuries.

Ldingley 16:03, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Ldingley is absolutely correct. AD 327 is a more widely accepted date of Georgia's conversion though AD 319, AD 334 and AD 337 have also been suggested.
I would add Margery Wardrop's The Life of Saint Nino, p. 5. (ISBN 1593334710; 1900, reprint 2007) to the list of references. Also Adrian Fortescue, The Orthodox Eastern Church, page 17; Marie-Félicité Brosset, Histoire de la Géorgie depuis l'antiquité jusqu'au XIX [i.e. dix-neuvième] siècle, p. xxxvi. --Kober 16:24, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
The sources that say 337 far outnumber those that allegedly say 327. Just checking on the web, I can't find any hits for 327 anywhere, but hundreds for 337. And if you check out http://www.answers.com/topic/georgia you can see that Britannica and several Encyclopedia articles besides wikipedia all agree, 337 or 330s. 337 is definitely not a typo, it's the majority opinion of historians. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 16:34, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
What historians? Can you name me one? I already listen all major scholars of Caucasus who based on extensive research have provided the exact date as 327 A.D. However, according to new findings in Georgia the date is 10 years older and settling on 317 A.D. However, based on scholars (such as Dowling and Allen) and not on Answers.com or Britannica which is not historic scholarly data base, the date is 327 A.D. The scholarly sources are far more important than Google hits. Please visit your local University library and conduct your own research about the topic. Georgia (Iberia) is the second oldest Christian after ancient Armenia state and not the kingdom of Aksum (Ethiopia did not exist in 330 A.D.). Actually the date of 330 A.D for Aksum is also very much disputed and as i review the Aksumite History, i dont see that date anywhere. Ldingley 16:40, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
The oldest attested native use of the name "Ethiopia" just happens to be from an inscription dated to the year 330 AD, so please do not make assertions like "Ethiopia did not exist in 330 AD". Ethiopia existed long before that and the continuity under whatever name goes back thousands of years. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 16:50, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree that Ethiopia is a very ancient community, however everywhere we can only see that the Kingdom of Aksum adopted Christianity as state religion. Ldingley 16:52, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Here are some more "typos" that say 337 AD - what a lot of "typos"!

  1. http://www.sacredsites.com/europe/georgia/georgia.htm
  2. http://www.bsec-business.org/culture/georgian.asp
  3. http://www.umt.edu/cap/documents/powerpoint/Georgia.ppt
  4. http://www.answers.com/topic/georgian-orthodox-and-apostolic-church
  5. http://www.imf.ge/view2.php?lang=1&view=31
  6. http://www.scouts.ge/georgian%20history.html
  7. http://members.tripod.com/~ninog/georgia.htm
  8. http://members.tripod.com/~giorgi_qvelashvili/geografia.htm

Just the tip of the iceberg, I got tired of looking halfway down the first page...

Sites that claim 327 AD:

  1. (none)

ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 16:45, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

None of those sources are scholarly or Historic data base, I have quoted many historic materials which give the date of 327. Now even i found the earlier date of 324 in Mr Wardlops book on Georgian Kingdom, London 1911. Again, none of those sources are scholarly, they are mainly personal websites.Ldingley 16:48, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
So how do you account for everybody making the same "typo", LDingley? ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 16:51, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Listen, Wikipedia is not a place where you can site the references from some websites like Tripod, Answers and even Britannica which is not credited as Historic scholarly database. I gave you real scholarly references by well known specialists of Caucasian History and provided lists of their work with pages. This is sufficient for the determining which date is correct based on historic research and not googling. I will go further and will present more evidence from other scholarly work as time will allow. Thanks. Ldingley 16:54, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
OK maybe so, maybe not, but you didn't answer my question: How do you account for everybody making the same "typo"? ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 16:57, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Some of the data on those web sites are actually taken from Wikipedia. Answers.com is notorious for that. I have to run to the lectures; will site more references from the scholars rather than websites of Georgian boy scouts :) Cheers my friend. Ldingley 17:00, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
The Britannica articles on Georgia mostly uses the chronology proposed by Cyril Toumanoff, and other websites blindly repeat that. Toumanoff was a great scholar but his data are not always accurate. The references listed by me and Ldingley are very serious and easily checkable. I think they are more credible than a scout organization website (I liked that very much:)) or any other obscure Tripod page. --Kober 17:03, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


Its so funny, all of these websites do not mention 337, and even some of them go far earlier to 317 A.D. US State Dep: "only the second nation in the world to do so officially." These are only some websites, there are tons more where the date is 317, 330, 324, etc. That’s why it is very important to acknowledge the fact of accuracy which is derived from scholarly sources rather than websites. I am am very late :( Cheers. Ldingley 17:25, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

  1. http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/5253.htm
  2. http://portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-URL_ID=18511&URL_DO=DO_PRINTPAGE&URL_SECTION=201.html
  3. http://ggdavid.tripod.com/georgia/history.htm
  4. http://orthodoxwiki.org/Church_of_Georgia
  5. http://www.workmall.com/wfb2001/georgia/georgia_history_christianity_and_the_georgian_empire.html


In 314, at Ceasarea in Cappadocia, Grigol Lusarovich, “the Illuminator” was consecrated bishop of Armenia. Twenty years later, the king of karli-Iberia, Mirian and his kingdom adopted Christianity….. The Making of the Georgian Nation, Ronald Grigor Suny, p. 20

In AD 330, King Mirian III and Iberia (Georgia) accepted Christianity… Georgia A Country Study, Glenn E. Curtis, p. 42


  • Keep it civil folks. A little sardonic humour may miscarry as outright sarcasm. This is text only and face and tone of voice can not mitigate what may only be friendly banter. We all want to take this to Feature Article quality. Malangthon 23:23, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Filling in the sources

Hi, I am doing what I can to at least trace some of these uncited statements to a credible source. Few are actually primary sources and that is a problem most people face when trying to dig up references. My guess is that an organisation like, say, the American Chamber of Commerce in Georgia is getting informed feedback and while it is not a primary source, it will serve for now. Let me know if you dig something up. Malangthon 23:28, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


From the DAI (Deutsches Archäologisches Institut) I discovered what excavations are being carried out [1]: "cooperative projects are being conducted in Georgia: an excavation by the Eurasia Department of the DAI in Tachti-Perda in Georgia, an excavation organised by the Tübingen University in Udabno, and the excavation at the Bronze Age gold mine at Saktrissi, in which the Deutsches Bergbaumuseum in Bochum is involved. "

NB: Most sites I have come across that are scholarly in content are not in Engish. German seems to predominate. If you read German, let us know what is out there. Meantime, I will see what I can uncover on English language sites. Happy hunting. Malangthon 00:26, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recorded History

The statement, "The recorded history of Georgia dates back for more than 4,000 years." needs a reference. Neolithic peoples left artefacts and burial mounds, Neolithic people did not write, ergo, did not record. In other words, they were PRE-historic. Can anyone show a reference--probably outside of Georgia--that mentions the people in Georgia? That at least will give us a source for this statment. Malangthon 23:45, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


I just reread that--4000 years ago is about 2,000 B.C. So what do I know? OK We still need a source but we may not be talking about Neolithic peoples. Malangthon 23:45, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] first king

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.241.28.173 (talk) 05:04, 23 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Image removed

I've removed this image because:

I took an image of the piece myself, which is at Commons. --Zaqarbal 18:51, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gap?

Any reason why there's a gaping hole between the Ottoman invasion and the Russian annexation. That's a gap of over three centuries. I'll see what I can do about filling it before too long - unless anybody has a valid objection. Cheers. --Folantin 14:08, 24 September 2007 (UTC)