Talk:History of Australia

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Archives

Archive 1

Contents 1 Australian Collaboration 2 Map Inaccurate 3 The stolen generation 4 Recently found data 5 Stolen generation Impact 6 Vandalism

[edit] Australian Collaboration

The collaboration covers the entire History of Australia series. If you contribute to other articles in the series as part of the collaboration, please list them below to ensure they are reported at the end of the fortnight. --Scott Davis ^Talk 00:35, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I've started by cutting the chronological series up as decided earlier. We now have History of Australia before 1788, History of Australia (1788-1850), History of Australia (1851-1900), History of Australia (1901-1945) and History of Australia since 1945. I've not moved any of the external links or references across, although since none of the references were pinpoint-style I haven't broken anything. It'd be nice now to a) get the links and references and such transferred to their proper new articles, and b) to create lead sections and such for the new articles. Rebecca 01:22, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

The "old articles" were History of Australia before 1901 and History of Australia since 1901, just to help people find what they had that needs to be moved. I've put a banner and explanantion at the top of pre-1901, and deleted the sections that had clearly been moved out. --Scott Davis ^Talk 01:21, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

The series was WP:ACOTF from 2 July 2006 to 16 July 2006

• about 8 contributors made about 28 edits to the main article, plus edits and restructuring of the chronological series
• See how the summary article changed

--Scott Davis ^Talk 15:07, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

May I ask, about the discovery of Australia, was there not French Explorers coming into Australia but Australia was already claimed by the British Settlement?

[edit] Map Inaccurate

The changing map in the middle of the page is inaccurate. In 1859 when Queensland was established, its western border was at 141 degrees east - which was a continuation of the NSW border. In 1862 the border was moved west to 138 degrees east - that is its current position. I suggest the map be deleted or replaced which an accurate one. There are other not insignificant changes which the map omits, however, on this point it clearly shows the wrong border with the date at 1859.Alan Davidson 13:34, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I have alerted the authors, Chuq for the original map and Astrokey44 for the animation. --Scott Davis ^Talk 14:33, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Interesting, I'm sure I remember that border being in the correct position before. Maybe my source was correct but I made a graphical transcription error when creating my version. I'll endeavour to fix it, though I may not get around to it soon, feel free to either have a go yourself, or hassle me about it again in the future. -- Chuq 11:49, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

After a little research, I believe there should be 13, not 6 maps to represent the changes. In fact there were more - but a couple occurred during the same year. I have placed the correct history on the page. 60.226.76.41 01:59, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I have updated it to include these, except for New Zealand since it is not already shown on the map, and it is the history of Australia after all. --Astrokey44 05:42, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The map is excellent, so I have changed the corresponding text. However, as New Zealand was part of NSW until 1840, it is part of the history. Alan Davidson 22:50, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

The new map is very good. But I believe there should be three (or four) more iterations. First it should show New Zealand; although not part of Australia now, it was part of New South Wales until 1840. I would thus include the islands of New Zealand from the beginning - in yellow - and then change it to its own colour in 1840. Second, In 1846 there was a colony of North Australia from February until December. Although short in time it did exist. Third (and fourth) in 1926 the Northern Territory was divided into North Australia and Central Australia. This was reversed in 1931.Alan Davidson 09:17, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

It seems, from Declaration of the Independence of New Zealand, that New Zealand was only part of New South Wales until 1835. There are other Australian territories also, such as Territory of Papua (1902-49, and possibly part of Queensland briefly in 1883), Territory of New Guinea (1920-49), Territory of Papua and New Guinea (1949-72) and maybe the Australian Antarctic Territory, plus islands such as Norfolk Island. By the way the map on [1] describes the area between South Australia and Western Australia near the nullabor plain 1837-59 as 'no mans land' - is this correct or was it part of New South Wales? I am working on the other changes.. --Astrokey44 11:03, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

To be entirely accurate the following would need to be added for the mainland territories. 1911 - the Federal Capital Territory (FCT) is established. 1915 - the Jervis Bay Territory is added to the Federal Captial Territory. 1938 - The FCT has its name changed to the Australian Captial Territory. 1989 - Jervis Bay Territory is separated from the ACT to form its own separate Territory.Alan Davidson 09:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

In relation to the comment that NZ was only part of NSW until the Declaration of Independnce of 1835 - I think that declaration made the position muddy. I doubt that the British colonial office would have recognised it. Indeed in 1839 there were new letters patent making NZ part of NSW; in part to clarify the position. Perhaps that was even a significanr factor in the people of NZ wanting certain status - which led to the 1840 treaty. I think it is best to leave the islands of NZ as part of NSW until 1840. Alan Davidson 09:45, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I have remade it to include New Zealand, and some of the other changes suggested at the failed fpc --Astrokey44 02:01, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Excellent work!--cj | talk 02:25, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Looks great! I almost didn't want to mention it after all the work you have done, but wasn't PNG a territory of Australia at some stage? -- Chuq 02:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! yes... actually this is the short version. I made a long one with PNG and the other territories shown, but the thumbnail has trouble displaying. --Astrokey44 10:10, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I feel like I am stirring the pot, but what about Macquarie Island and Lord Howe Island :) -- Chuq 01:19, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I thought about including Macquarie Island because it was interesting that it was transferred from NSW to Tassie in 1890, but it is practically uninhabited, and would be distracting. Lord Howe Island doesnt really need singling out - it would be like other various islands that are off the coast that are too small to show at this scale - Great Keppel Island etc, and it doesnt have an ISO 3166-1 code, unlike the other territories shown. --Astrokey44 00:52, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

It looks absolutely fantastic. However, in 1863 the land annexed to South Australia (now known as the Northern Territory) became part of South Australia. Indeed from 1901 until 1911 the citizens had representatives in the lower house and the Senators also represented them. Today the Northern Territorians who want statehood point out that they lost their state rights in 1911 and became second calss citizens. What I mean is that South ustralia is one all the way to Darwin. Alan Davidson 11:29, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

but it was often called the northern territory of south australia [2]. I did make them the same colour, what if I took out the line but left the writing "northern territory", or changed it to 'northern territory of south australia'? --Astrokey44 12:38, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

My understanding is that it was colloquially refered to as the northern territory (small 'n' and small 't') and only formally become the Northern Territory ('N' 'A') in 1911. I think the whole area was South Australia. There are some maps which refer to it as the northern territory of South Australia - but for all purposes, voting rights etc, it was part of South Australia. There is a map from the National Archives showing this. Alan Davidson 13:05, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I have seen it depicted like that before. I have changed them to show an enlarged South Australia. It does make it easier to see that NT was part of SA then; otherwise you might assume it was separate. --Astrokey44 02:29, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I showed the map to a colleague who, as a Queenslander, pointed out that Queensland Day is 6 June as that is apparently the founding date. The Wikipedia page agrees with that date. Your date is 10 December. Alan Davidson 03:30, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I noticed differences with the dates the colonies were founded: I think that it is some give the date the letters patent was authorised (in Britain), some give the date the letters patent was actually published in Australia when the colony was proclaimed - I think this is how it worked: they authorise the colony in England (6 June 1859 for Queensland) but it is not actually proclaimed until the documents reach Australia (see [3] - Sir George Bowen arrived on 10 December 1859 to proclaim the colony. I gave it as 10 December because that is what nationmaster gave it. I may switch it to 6 June since that is the more known date, but with some of them, for instance, South Australia, the date everyone remembers is the foundation day - South Australian letters patent authorised 18 Feb 1836, but Proclamation Day is December 28, 1836 --Astrokey44 04:38, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

This also applies to decisions to move borders etc. - which date should be used? --Astrokey44 02:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC):

colony/event	authorised/letters patent	founded/proclaimed/published
NSW	25 April 1787 [4]	26 January 1788
Tas	14 June 1825[5]	3 Dec 1825
WA	14 May 1829 [6]	Perth: 11 June, Swan River Colony: 18 June 1829 [7]
SA	19 Feb 1836 [8]	December 28, 1836
North Australia	17 February 1846, revoked in December 1846	30 January 1847, orders arrived to abandon settlement 15 April 1847.
Vic	5 August 1850 [9]	1 July 1851
Qld	6 June (Queensland Day) 1859 [10]	10 December 1859
Qld boundary moved west	13 March 1862[11] or 12 April 1862 [12]	23 June 1862
NT annexed to SA	6 July 1863[13]	?

I think the new map is an improvement. Why don't you put it on the page - although I am unsure whether it should be the long or short version. Alan Davidson 05:31, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I put the short one up. perhaps it works better as a thumbnail? --Astrokey44 10:15, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the map meeds to be bigger than a thumbnail. Perhaps at least as big as the one on this page. Alan Davidson 12:16, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I have increased it. By the way, here's something we haven't covered yet: South Australia-Victoria border dispute - the South Australian/Vic border was proclaimed at the 141st meridian in 1836, but is now a little west of that. When would this change legally have occured? --Astrokey44 11:14, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Talk of New Zealand as part of NSW before 1840 is flawed. The Governor was considered 'responsible' for British citizens in it, but it was not part of the Colony, as it was not part of the British Empire at all. The reason for the confusion is presumably the prescence of a British Resident, under the command of the Governor of NSW, but this official was merely an ambassador, not an arm of colonial government.

Furius

The fact that the NSW government did not take an interest in the New Zealand islands does not change the fact (stated in many history texts) that NZ was part of NSW until 1840. Perhaps the Declaration of Indepedence in 1835 changed this, but the British view was redeclared in 1839. It was this in part which led to the formation as a separate colony over the following two years. Interestingly, (as a parallel) the area now known as the Northern Territory was part of NSW until 1863 when it became part of South Australia. Notwithstanding the fact that the NSW government made no attempt to send anyone to the NT, or to deal in any way with the area, it was still regarded as part of NSW. In 1863 there were zero settlements on the NT other than the indigenous population. Alan Davidson 15:33, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

How can NZ have been part of New South Wales when NZ was explicitly considered outside the British Empire (of which NSW was a subdivision). Imperial Statutes in 1817, 1823, 1828 acknowledged this. This is different from NT which was claimed as part of the British Empire, even though that claim was only on paper.

It is true, that there was a period, between New Zealand's official induction into the British Empire (October 2 1840), and its proclamation as a seperate Crown Colony (in November 1840), but this period is only slightly over a month... The confusion derives, I suppose, from the fact that pre-1840, the NSW Governor was expected to keep an eye on the actions of British in NZ (Much as an Australian ambassador to a foreign country is expected to aid Australian nationals in that country). As the Elizabeth Affair (1831- I think), for example, showed, the NSW authorities had no legal right to even charge British nationals for crimes committed in NZ. Furius

[edit] The stolen generation

In the context of general history of Australia - this section seems out of place. Wouldn't it be better to have "Relations with Indigenous population" or something like that. There were serious murders, a massacre and eradication of the Tasmanian aborigines which could be mentioned together. The stolen generation is a part of the bigger picture. 60.226.76.41 04:35, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recently found data

According to this book by Peter Trickett, Australia was first sighted by the portuguese in 1522, 250 years before the Dutch.

Here are more news links for sources [14] if anyone wishes to add this, please do. I am going on a trip, so... :) -Pikolas 10:18, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

We have an article about this, see Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia --Astrokey44 10:24, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stolen generation Impact

Re: that the stolen generation had " a major impact on the Indigenous population" . Have added a citation-required as there is no qualification/clarification or documented source listed. It should be easy enough to find some documented evaluations on the impact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.178.199.79 (talk) 13:36, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Added a link to the Bringing Them Home report conclusion which briefly discusses the impact - there's more detail in the body of the report itself. Although many of the figures in the report are thought to have been exaggerated, the impact is not really debated. Icarus78 06:31, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

This article seems to be quite a popular target for vandals. Shouldn't this article be protected or locked in some way? Ryan Albrey (talk) 04:14, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

The following unsigned passage had been inserted at the end of the article, under See Also:

"Opposition leader Brendan Nelson raised many points following the official appology delivered to the aboriginal population of Australia by Prime minister Kevin Rudd. Brendan Nelson supporting Kevid Rudd & the goverments appology voiced many Australian feelings following the controversy of the stolen generation, stateing it was conducted with good intention despite its wrong doing. Many facts are debated and are unavailable due to poor records. The appology is stiring new problems as the facts of British settlement is brought to the search light once agian. Many Australians who felt shame by their ancestors actions, are now confused by the released facts that the genocide of aboriginals was in fact due to introduced flues and viruses that the aboriginal had little or no immunity to. Australians feeling guilt now realize that the genocide they feel blame for, was done without knowledge or intention and more importantly without malice. It is estimated that 50% of the aboriginal population died by the introduction of diseases they had not seen before, smallpox, chickenpox, syphillis etc. The appology has done as much damage as good some Australians feel. The common Australian had been raised to believe they are, were responsible for acts such as genocide, massacres and allround poor treatment of aboriginals. With genocide now being disputed by public awareness & real evidence, the massacres are also being questioned. It has been raised that more white Australians died in acts of violence from Aboriginals than Aboriginals from white settlers. Historians show an estimated 10,000 to 15,000 aboriginals died in acts of violence from white settlers & some 3000 whites in acts of violence from Aboriginals. These figures are now being heavily investigated by interested parties on both sides of the argument. The fact the common Australian believed he/she was responsible for the massacre of an estimated 150,000 to 300,000 aboriginals is sadly coming to an end. Other facts, such as white settlers hung for acts of violence & acts of death agianst the then Aboriginal population, enforced by laws with many records to support, are raising new questions by young Australians. The fact that the Australian goverment spent 3.5 billion dollars last year on Aboriginals has stirred new questions by multi cultural Australian tax payers as well as white Australians. The Aboriginal population an estimated 454,963. This would mean each Aboriginal family of 2 adults and 2 children received 31,000 dollars in support last year alone."

I regard this as a rambling racist diatribe which makes no contribution to an article on Australian history, so I have removed it. Peter Bell (talk) 08:33, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

• I apologise about that. I'm using Huggle to monitor vandalism, and when I came across the article and saw a large amount of content removed without an explanation, I reverted the edit, thinking it was vandalism. I apologise for this. Steve Crossin (talk) 08:37, 5 March 2008 (UTC)