Talk:Historical names of Transylvania

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  • Later, instead of the Latin name, the Hungarian Erdőelve (area beyond the forest), which means the same as the Latin, was popularly used. - does anyone has more info on this "Erdőelve means area beyond the forest "  ? . in hungarian Erdő ellőt means "before the forest", and Erdő tul means "after/beyond the forest" ... i did a google search for "Hungarian Erdőelve" and this exact sentence Later, instead of the Latin name, the Hungarian Erdőelve (area beyond the forest), which means the same as the Latin, was popularly used. appears in 5-6 results, clearly a copy of this wikiarticle. the pages in hungarian that i read so far do not offer a clue about what Erdőelve comes from, only that it is similar to "Erdely", but what if the form Erdőelve is a adaptation into hungarian from romanian "Ardeal" ?

-when did the form Erdőelve occured first in hugarian, is it possible to trace this ?

  • No, its not possible to trace when it first occured in spoken Hungarian. The earliest written source (according to Hungarian linguists) is the Gesta Hungarorum.Scott Moore 11:43, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

-what is, or what was, the meaning of Erdőelve, can anyone offer hints ?... other than "(area beyond the forest), which means the same as the Latin" Criztu 23:17, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

  • "Erdeuelu" is a transcript of Hungarian "Erdőelve" meaning "beyond the forest" and is the basis of today's "Erdély" form. - ok, can you provide reference to "Erdoelve = beyond the forest", similar placenames, a link or a book demonstrating this, a historic source supporting a hungarian "erdoelve" before the Gesta Hungarorum ? -- Criztu 16:30, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    • Erdõ-elve = beyond the forest. Well, I think no one would doubt that erdõ = forest (as it is still used in modern Hungarian). According to Hungarian etymological dictionaries, erdõ is derived from ered (meaning "to originate from", and still used in modern Hungarian but with a much wider set of meanings). Regarding the elve suffix, this is a modern form of (according to some sources) elü. Another example is Havas-elve (= beyond the snowy [mountains],transalpinus), which was the medieval Hungarian for Wallachia. Scott Moore 11:43, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
you are talking about hungarian name Havas Alföld (havas = snowy, alfold = plain) for Wallachia. pls provide evidence for a Havas Elve meaning "beyond the snowy mountains). i couldnt find a modern hungarian word elve meaning "beyond/trans/across", and no hungarian word havas meaning "snowy mountain"Criztu 14:13, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
Dear Criztu, "havas" is a common word in Hungarian. Parts of Carpathians are for example named "Fogarasi-havasok" (i.e. The snowy mountains of Fogaras), "Gyergyói-havasok", etc. As for elve, that's a word by now extinct, but it was often used in the past in the sense 'over, beyond'. Some examples from the Codex of Munich (Tatros): „És jutának Judeának vidékébe Jordán elvé” (="And they got to Judea, beyond the Jordan"), „És mikor juttak volna ő tanejtványi tenger elve” (="and when his disciples got beyond the sea"), "Kimene Czedronnak áradatja elvé" (="went to beyond the flood of the Czedron"). You can check the references in A magyar nyelv szótára, edited by Czuczor Gergely and Fogarasi János. I hope I could help. Zigomer trubahin (talk) 05:13, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
    • Yes, I can provide numerous books expressing this hypothesis as it supported by many Hungarian historians and linguists (I haven't yet found dissenting views among Hungarian experts, but some may exist). From the linguistic side, I suggest refering to any etymological dictionary of Hungarian. From the historical side, I suggest Pal Engel's "Realm of Saint Stephen: A History of Medieval Hungary" as it is recent and was published (only) in English. Scott Moore 11:43, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] Erde Gelu

hi there all, since i ain't too able to track sources evidentiating the link between Ardeal and Gelu, i think it would worth sharing to you all my "research", who knows, maybe you'll find it useful in your own "research" on this Ardeal/Erdely ethymology:

  • Alba Iulia ("White Iulia") in romanian, Gyula Feher Var ("Gyula White City") in hungarian, both designate the same city.
  • Gelu was suposed by the author of Gesta Hungarorum to have been a vlach that ruled in what was Erdeuelu ... though i don't know how Anonymous originaly wrote the names of Gelu and Erdeuelu.
  • Julius was a roman name
  • Gelones were an ancient tribe living in Transylvania.
  • Iuliu (m.) / Iulia (f.) are the romanian forms of latin Julius
  • Gelu (m.) is another romanian name today.
  • Giulio (m.) / Giulia (f.) are the italian forms of latin Julius.

while there were these dacian Apulia(?) and roman Apulum that can be at the origin of Alba Iulia/ Gyula Feher Var

  • Arderich - the Gepid king seems to have meant simply Erde Rich, probably meaning "King of the Land".

and there were these IE roots arde for "forest" and erde for "earth"

but what about these Latin arduus, ardua, arduum - steep; high; difficult [arduum, ardui, n. - steep place] ... or Irish àirde - height, Irish áirde, Early Irish arde; See àrd. ?

take a look at http://www.perseus.tufts.edu

  • arduus , a, um, adj. [akin to ARDÔ, arsô = to water, to cherish; aldainô = to make grow; aldêeis = growing; alo, altus, q. v.; 1. ad-oleo, ad-olesco; related to arbor, arbutus as eruthros, Germ. roth, Engl. red, is related to ruber; Ardea was perh. so called from its lofty situation; cf. Arduenna]

I. high, elevated, lofty, steep (syn.: altus, celsus, sublimis).

I. Lit.: Pergama ardua, Enn. ap. Macr. S. 6, 2: aether, Ov. M. 1, 151 : sidera, id. ib. 1, 730 : cedrus, id. Am. 1, 14, 12 : cervix equi, Hor. S. 1, 2, 89 : et campo sese arduus infert (Turnus), Verg. A. 9, 53 .--Also in prose in Gell.: supercilia, i. e. proudly elevated, Gell. 4, 1, 1 : confragosus atque arduus clivis, steep, Varr. R. R. 1, 18, 4 : ascensus, Cic. Verr. 2, 4, 23 : arduus ac difficilis ascensus, Liv. 25, 13 : ardua et aspera et confragosa via, id. 44 . 3: via alta atque ardua, Enn. ap. Cic. Tusc. 1, 16, 37: mons, Ov. M. 1, 316 : Tmolus, id. ib. 11, 150 al.--Hence, subst.: arduum , i, n., a steep place, a steep: Ardua dum metuunt, amittunt vera viaï, Lucr. 1, 659 : in ardua montis Ite, Ov. M. 8, 692 : ardua terrarum, Verg. A. 5, 695 : per arduum scandere, Hor. C. 2, 19, 21 : in arduo, Tac. A. 2, 47 : in arduis ponet nidum suum, Vulg. Job, 39, 27 : ardua Alpium, Tac. H. 4, 70 : castellorum, id. A. 11, 9 : ingressi sunt ardua, Vulg. Jer. 4, 29 . --

II. Trop.

A. That is difficult to reach or attain, difficult, laborious, hard, arduous: magnum opus omnino et arduum conamur, Cic. Or. 10, 33 : rerum arduarum ac difficilium perpessio, id. Inv. 2, 54 ; so id. Leg. 1, 13: id arduum factu erat, Liv. 8, 16 ; Tac. A. 4, 4: victoria, Ov. M. 14, 453 : virtus, Hor. C. 3, 24, 44 : nil mortalibus arduum est, id. ib. 1, 3, 37 .--Subst.: nec fuit in arduo societas, Tac. A. 12, 15 .--

B. Troublesome, unpleasant: in primis arduum videtur res gestas scribere, Sall. C. 3, 2 , upon which Gellius remarks: Arduum Sallustius non pro difficili tantum, sed pro eo quoque ponit, quod Graeci chalepon appellant: quod est cum difficile tum molestum quoque et incommodum et intractabile, Gell. 4, 15 : quam arduum onus, Tac. A. 1, 11 .--

C. Of fortune, difficult, adverse, inauspicious: aequam memento rebus in arduis Servare mentem, in adversity, Hor. C. 2, 3, 1 .!*? Comp. arduior: iter longius arduiusque erat, Cato ap. Prisc. p. 600 P.--Sup. arduissimus: asperrimo atque arduissimo aditu, Cato ap. Prisc. p. 600 P.; cf.: assiduus, egregius, industrius, perpetuus, and Rudd. I. p. 180, n. 58.--Adv. not used.

i think there are bits of info out there that can lead to an Erde Iuliu (Land of Iuliu) or Erde Gelu (Land of Gelu), but it's beyond my present capacity :0| ... Criztu 23:16, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

In what language would this phrase 'Erde Gelu' be? Since Dacian was not Germanic, I seriously doubt that the Dacians would have the word 'erde' meaning 'earth'. Alexander 007 05:07, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

ok, this Gesta Hungarorum was written by a chronicler at the court of the Kings of Hungary. Where did he learn to write ? can we assume he learnt in a german environment, given the german influences in this region ? say, Teutonic Order, vecinity with Frankish and German empires, the spread of Catholicism through german bishops in this Kingdom of Hungary -- Criztu 12:17, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hungarian letter 'ly'

I have removed the following sentence from the article, because some of the points are incorrect, and the argument is not very well supported. It seems purely speculative to me.

However, the ending "-eal" in Romanian suggests that it was not borrowed in Romanian from Hungarian, because intervowel "l" is eluded (such as in words like Udvarhely → Odorhei - in Hungarian, the group of letters "ly" is pronounced as "y", so the Hungarian name Mihaly is pronounced much like the Romanian name Mihai), so if this were indeed true, the Romanian name ought to be "Ardei".

1) there is no intervowel "l" in udvarhely and "ly" is not a group of letters. Whoever wrote this doesn't know much about Hungarian, because "ly" is a single letter.

2) I can offer two examples which contradicts the above. The word for buffalo is bivol in Romanian and bivaly in Hungarian. They seem to be related (it doesn't matter which came from which), but here the Hungarian letter 'ly' is equivalent to the Romanian letter 'l'. Another example is the Hungarian word gulyás. In this case the lettler 'ly' has been replaced with an 'l' in other languages (e.g. goulash in English). I just offer my examples to show that you can't support a linguistical argument in this way.

3) the pronunciation of the letter "ly" in Hungarian has changed. I'll try to find out when and how, but I think it is only relatively recently that is had been pronounced similarly to "y". Scott Moore 11:35, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

4) the town of Székelyudvarhely/Odorhei was written as Uduarhel in a document of 1332. This strongly suggests that the Romanian form Odorhei is recent (deriving from the modern Hungarian pronunciation of "ly"). Scott Moore 11:55, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

5) the name Mihály is the Hungarian form of the Hebrew name which is Michael in English, Miguel in Spanish etc. So when the name was adopted into Hungarian, the letter "ly" was used where the letter "l" was used in other languages. Scott Moore 12:13, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The 'bivol'/'bivoly' example is not a good example. The issue is not whether Romanian 'l' and Hungarian 'ly' can be equivalent, the issue is that when Hungarian 'ely' enters Romanian, it becomes '-ei'. It is a matter of Hungarian to Romanian sound-changes. The word 'bivol' entered Romanian from Slavic 'byvolu', and the Hungarian word entered from Slavic or Romanian. Your example would be good if Hungarian 'bivoly' became Romanian 'bivol', but that's not the case. The same problem with the 'goulash' example, because it is not a parallel example.

It doesn't even matter that 'ly' is one letter in Hungarian. The issue here is sound-changes, not orthography. The argument has been used by linguists, so it is not original research, and I'm putting it back in the article until an actual linguist publishes a paper that unambiguously disproves it. Alexander 007 13:24, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

here an interesting hungarian word: "kastely" (castle), the corresponding romanian word is "castel" (castle). then look at hungarian "Erdely" and romanian "Ardeal" -- Criztu 10:14, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

That's not a parallel example, because the Romanian word Castel didn't enter from Hungarian. Cf. Latin Castellum, Polish kastzel, Italian castello. Alexander 007 04:01, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Indo-European Roots that are Relevant

One of the most relevant IE roots to the Ardeal/Erdely question is

  • Ered-, "high, steep". The Latin word Arduus (steep, towering, lofty; in altered sense, it meant 'difficult', 'difficult to reach') is known to be from this root. Perhaps Romanian Ardeal is from this root, from Dacian or Celtic.
  • Er-. This meant 'earth, ground'. Notably found in Germanic. Cf. Middle Dutch 'eerde' (earth), Old English 'eorthe', from which comes English 'earth'. This root is unlikely, because it is not specific enough to higher elevations.

I'm not sure if the forest names Arden and Ardennes have been traced to a root. This may indicate either a West Indo-European semi-root, or these forest names may be from pre-IE populations. The Celtic element is present in all three of these instances: Arden (in Britain); Ardennes (in Belgium); Ardeal (where Celtic tribes had settled). There may be more examples. Alexander 007 12:06, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Addition to article

Criztu, 007

The article totally lacked the Hungarian view on the etymology of the various words, so I have added it. The existing hypotheses in the article about the etymology of Ardeal/Erdély I have put in a section entitled 'Romanian View' (you haven't explained where these hypotheses came from, so I can only assume from Romanian linguists/historians). Scott Moore 11:43, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I may as well be more specific on my references. The text on the etymology of Erdély is taken from the entry for Erdõ in 'A magyar nyelvtőrténeti-etimológiai szotára', Akadémiai Kiadó, 1984 (second edition) as well Pál Engel's 'The Realm of Saint Stephen: A History of Medieval Hungary'. Engel also stated that the Latin form Transylvania is derived from the Hungarian, but I'm not sure whether this firm view is held more generally among specialists in Hungary. The hypothesis that the Romanian form is derived from the Hungarian is mentioned in Hungarian Wikipedia, but I can't otherwise confirm that there is a consensus on this in Hungary. Scott Moore 16:56, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The ending '-eal' in Romanian suggests that it was not borrowed in Romanian from Hungarian, because as we know from parallel examples, Hungarian '-ely' becomes '-ei' in Romanian (Hungarian Udvarhely → Romanian Odorhei).

The above is irrelevant as Erdély is the form in modern Hungarian - no one would seriously suggest that Ardeal (first written source 15th century) derives from Erdély. Scott Moore 12:13, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

User:Bogdangiusca added that when he started the article, so I guess he is responsible for that information, which he in turn took from published linguists. Alexander 007 01:10, 5 Jun 2005

[edit] Etymology of Siebenbürgen

Can anyone provide references for the derivation of Siebenbürgen from the "seven German cities founded or settled by the German Saxons in Transylvania"? I've found a number of other hypotheses for the etymology, so it is by no means clear that there is a consensus. For example:

  • Klaus Popa: "Siebenbuergen" means explicitly "Seven Towns" or "Seven Castles". Still this etimology is too explicit to be true. It seems rather to originate in the dialectical tradition of the first, mainly Low German, Flemish and Dutch settlers, in whose homelands there are hilly regions called "Zevenbergen" (in southern Holland) and "Sevenbergen" (east of the town of Hameln on the river Weser, Germany).
  • Laszlo Kontler: Transylvania and the Maros valley...seems to have been the first portion of land within the Carpathians where Mahyars gained a foothold, each of their seven chieftains having erected, according to legend, an earthen 'castle' (hence the German name of the province).
  • The text I've already added comes from Pal Engel who describes the hypothesis as "plausible" but doesn't give a source for it

Scott Moore 18:14, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Erdély / Ardeal

The current argument presented under the heading "Romanian View" is incorrect, because "Udvarhely" ends in "-ely", while "Erdély" ends in "-ély", "e" and "é" being pronounced quite differently (somewhat like French "ai" and "é"). I don't want to remove it, since there might be a similar, and accurate, argument I don't know of; however, it shouldn't remain as it is now.

Also, FYI, the Hungarian "ly" was in old times pronounced similarly to "l" (more or less like present Russian "ль"), but today, in most dialects, it is exactly the same sound as "j". Unfortunately, I'm not a linguist, or I'd present you with the exact IPA notation or whatever :)

KissL 09:25, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Since the example hasn't been replaced by a correct one in more than half a year (and I don't know one either), I have removed the sentence containing the incorrect argument. Feel free to reinsert it if proper justification is found. KissL 07:16, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Name of article not the best choice

Because it deals with the etymology of Romanian Ardeal and Hungarian Erdely as well, not to mention the German name. Alexander 007 07:18, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ardeal from Arges

  • Argeal, from river Argeş (Ardeiscus). "-eal" is a typical Romanian ending.

pls provide expert study, something, otherwise is original research Criztu 20:59, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Assessment

I wonder about the credibility and the very logic of some comments on this page. Some users obviously cannot distinguish between making their own guesses (which rely on spurious and protochronist arguments) and presenting a creditable, valid, and non-partisan source. Dahn 20:18, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hungarian Erdeuelu

I intent on editing "The first Hungarian form recorded was Erdeuelu (12th century, in the Gesta Hungarorum". I think Gesta Hungarorum is a latin document, so i will ask for a source demonstrating Erdeuelu was a hungarian toponym. Criztu 15:52, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

That is just funny. Dahn 15:53, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Criztu, you are being obtuse. You know very well that GH was written in Latin but that it contains numerous non-Latin names. The sources for the etymology of erdeuelu are given above on this very talk page. For your benefit I've copied down here what I wrote last year. If you were really interested in sources, then during the past year you would have acquired or accessed a copy of a Hungarian etymological dictionary or, indeed, Pal Engel's book (which is now available in paperback). Of course, it could be that you are just asking for sources (again) to be obstructive. Or to take advantage of my apparent absence from Wikipedia. Scott Moore 10:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Erdõ-elve = beyond the forest. Well, I think no one would doubt that erdõ = forest (as it is still used in modern Hungarian). According to Hungarian etymological dictionaries, erdõ is derived from ered (meaning "to originate from", and still used in modern Hungarian but with a much wider set of meanings). Regarding the elve suffix, this is a modern form of (according to some sources) elü. Another example is Havas-elve (= beyond the snowy [mountains],transalpinus), which was the medieval Hungarian for Wallachia. Scott Moore 11:43, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • Yes, I can provide numerous books expressing this hypothesis as it supported by many Hungarian historians and linguists (I haven't yet found dissenting views among Hungarian experts, but some may exist). From the linguistic side, I suggest refering to any etymological dictionary of Hungarian. From the historical side, I suggest Pal Engel's "Realm of Saint Stephen: A History of Medieval Hungary" as it is recent and was published (only) in English. Scott Moore 11:43, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Romanian point of view ?

Labeling the ... exotic ethimological theories of the words ardeal, erdely etc as "Romanian point of view" is not only inaccurate but also insulting. To my knoledge no reputed Romanian scholar (even unde Ceasescu's regime) endorsed such a theory. Even the Romanian Explicative Dictionaries I remember adhered to the so called "Hungarian point of view". Plinul cel tanar 12:50, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I could not agree more. Listing in that way is absurd, and the theories added in recent edits are fringe to say the least. I was waiting for someone to take an interest in this. Dahn 12:52, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deal

Isn't there a proposal at least at the folk etymology level of Ardeal coming from Romanian deal? --84.20.17.84 09:50, 2 October 2007 (UTC)