Talk:Hiro Nakamura/Archive 2

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Archive
Archives
  • Archive 1 Dec 28 2006 - Jan 09 2006: Hiro's name in Japanese, Programmer v. Salaryman, Space/time manipulation v. Reality Warping, DBZ reference, Hero's sword (Katana or Tsurugi?), Biography format, Hiro's blog, The Card Shark.
  • Archive 2


Contents

[edit] Kensei

"According to an ancient Japanese scroll, the sword belonged to an ancient samurai warrior called Takezo Kensei (another name for famed swordsman Miyamoto Musashi)."

Where in the world is it stated that 'Takezo Kensei' is another name for Musashi? There is probably some inspiration there, but this seems like someone that someone has made up of their own accord.--MythicFox 03:45, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

According to the Wikipedia article Kensei, Kensei is a term applied as an honorific to a masterful or legendary swordsman, certainly an apt description of Miyamoto Musashi. However, that is probably where the confusion came in. It appears that the term Kensei can apply to any great swordsman, not just Miyamoto. The text of the article should be corrected. --Stormraven 04:06, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Just after "Godsend" aired, some generic IP address user modified Miyamoto Musashi's article to indicate that "Takezo Kensei" was another name he was known by. However, this claim did not come with any supporting citations, and given the highly suspicious timing of that particular addition, I reverted that edit as well as the one in this article. --ΨΦorg 08:10, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I went searching for information via the almighty Google. Thus, a proposed addition: "Takezo Kensei" is derived by adding the honorific Kensei to Shinmen Takezo, Miyamoto Musashi's name prior to adulthood. This page and this related page list the following sources: Cleary, Thomas. The Japanese Art of War. Shambala, 1991 Miyamoto Musashi. (trans. Thomas Cleary) The Book of Five Rings. Shambala, 1994 Turnbull, Stephen. The Lone Samurai and the Martial Arts Arms and Armour. 1990

I'm not sure which of these contains the aforementioned name, but it is a start, provided that the community deems this information verifiable and worthy of note. Perhaps someone wants to search a bit more heavily? Valaqil 16:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I added the initial comment about Musashi after doing a search for Takezo Kensai and coming up to his page. I did not realize that the edit made to Musashi's page was done after the episode aired, my bad. BMZ 09:58 (Pacific Time), 24 January 2007

In "Godsend" when in the museum and first find the sword, there is a short cut to some printed text, we can see: "Tekezo Kensei (1584-". 1584 is also Miyamoto Musashi year of birth. All these are far to much to be co-incidential. Even if there is no confirmation that Tekezo Kensai is an acceptable name for Miyamoto Musashi, it is most likely that the shows creators are indeed refering to him. In summary, at least an irresolute reference to Takezo Kensai should be placed in the article. DuckeJ 10:57, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

The sentence:

"According to an ancient Japanese scroll, the sword belonged to an ancient samurai warrior called Takezo Kensei (possibly an allusion to Takezo Kensei)."

...is problematic a couple of ways. First, the idea that a name is an "allusion" to that same name is weak. A name is far more than a mere allusion to itself. However, in this case, it's almost irrelevant, since the TK link redirects to Musashi anyway. I've changed the article to point directly to MM, which also clarifies the "allusion" phrase to "(possibly an allusion to Miyamoto Musashi)." By all means, continue debate over whether this allusion is real or valid, but as long as it's in the article (which seems warranted to me, at least), it should be clear to the readers. Slurms MacKenzie 18:43, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, TK doesn't redirect to MM, it just goes to Kensei. The MM page doesn't use that name, and linking the two seems to be original research. --Milo H Minderbinder 19:02, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I see that the redirect has been changed, and that's fine with me. I still maintain that the phrasing you keep reverting to is incredibly backward -- the name does not "allude" to itself, it can only allude to something else. If you don't want to reference to MM included (although I don't see consensus for that), the entire panthetical should be cut out. -- Slurms, unable to log in.
Actually, I just reverted that phrasing once and I agree. My second edit removed the whole phrase as you said. --Milo H Minderbinder 22:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I appear to be having some caching issues, then. My bad. Anyway, huzzah!

[edit] Moved from Talk:Heroes (TV series)

Accordig to Wikipedia, Takezo Kensei is Miyamoto Musashi. Diluvial 14:46, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Please don't randomly add new data to an old thread. Anyway, all references to this connection were added after the episode aired. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 17:41, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Please read the talk page guidelines:Don't edit others' comments. The thread requested more information, so I gladly provided it. There was no previous mention of Musashi on the TV Series talk page. The age of the thread was irrelevant as its questions had not been answered. Therefore, my coment was neither a candidate for editing nor for refactoring. "Archive--don't delete," and always include a reason. Diluvial 22:36, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I'd second that, I'm not sure why it was moved (originally just deleted, and then a second time after I restored it). Ace, cut it out. --Milo H Minderbinder 23:13, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
"Cut it out"? I'd llke to think we're all adults here, or that we can at least act like ones. The comment wasn't going to get noticed where it was anyway. Furthermore, to quote Argash, character specific discussions should be conducted on that character talk pages. No offense to Dil, but a mistake was made, and all I did was correct it. Claim I violated TPE if you wish, but you'll only be defending an error, and not something minor like a typo. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 23:55, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps the guidelines (plural) were not clear enough: No personal attacks. It even has its own page: WP:NPA --Diluvial 00:24, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
When did I attack anyone? Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 00:40, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I've read (the fictional novel) Musashi by Eiji Yoshikawa. Takezo is indeed the name given for Miyamoto Musashi prior to his taking that latter name later in life. Kensei is also an honorific commonly applied to Musashi. Though the reference is clear, the legend Hiro remembers about Musashi is largely fictional. Musashi was actually famous for shunning swords in his latter years. (Crossing from the fictional back into the real, bear with me. Musashi, like Cyrano, was a real person around whom a larger legend grew.) The only element of the story that struck me as historically accurate were the references to Musashi being beastly or uncouth, presumably a reference to his refusal to bathe after being ambushed in a bathhouse. That, and his reputation as the greatest of all samurai.Baudot 07:11, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Powers and abilities

Did anyone notice in the pilot that Hiro actually chooses his abilities. He didn't stumble upon them, he made his "hiro face" and moved the clock back. Think about it. He never had powers before, then one day he decides to try to move back time... and then it works. After which, he seemed to decide that he can teleport, too. This also wasn't discovered, he just tried to do it and it happened.

Also, the reasoning that he needs the sword to use his powers is questionable. How could he even know that?

I think that it should be noted, but it might sound too much like speculation. Thoughts? --EXV // + @ 09:29, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I think that it is inconclusive. How do we know he has not had some indication of these abilities prior to the epsiode? Perhaps something happened that caused him to believe that he could do it with more control, e.g. he manifests the power on accident at some point.
As for the sword, the story told that Takezo became powerful or whatever when using the sword. He doesn't _know_ that. He just suspects/believes it that will be true for him as well. He may get all the way to the end, find that this whole quest for the sword was a waste, and his lack of belief in himself was the reason his powers waned. Who knows? There is too much speculation here, imo, to place this into the article. Valaqil 17:36, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with this, it appears that most of the heroes choose their abilities, for instance Nathan who frequently may need to "get away from it all" so to speak, has the power of flight which alone is not much good for a hero, but could help in an escape scenario (like when Bennett and the Haitian come after him in Las Vegas), Peter, a nurse by profession has the power of Empathy, because he "always wanted to be like his brother" Eden had a life of being told what to do, and as revenge wanted to be able to tell other people what to do and developed the power of Mind Control. Sylar/Gabriel Gray was a watchmaker/fixer, and needed to be able to see how the watches worked in order to fix them, Claude was a recluse(however this is anachronistic to his powers' manifestation) and had the power of invisibility. yeah it's mostly speculation, but it might be worth it to discuss, if not on wikipedia then in forums and other places. LIMEY 04:15, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

It seems that it's more like the characters embody their abilities. The abilities, even if not active in youth, helped form their personality. Regardless of the way round it went, no body chose their ability, otherwise no one would have problems with them. Jacobshaven3 13:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that when Hiro and Ando are being shot, if Hiro make the time and the bullet to travel back, inmediately, the bullet would be fired again, and shot one of them. Realize that the entire gun is forced back, and Hope cant control that. And over all things, Ando says: I dont want to die! and his wish is accomplished just like some time before he says: we need hope, and they met Hope. I think that maybie Ando has his own power, because in the shot scene, that power not correspond to any that Hiro has made before. (Sorry about my english).


There's really nothing you can argue for that except that it it's a fantasy element; Kring has made it clear that he designs the powers around the characters and not the other way around, that that's what his approach is to the series (a fairly recent Wired.com article mentioned one of the comic book geek writers saying how they were all like "We need a fire guy! We need an ice guy!" but that Kring insisted on creating the character first, the powers second). Thus the prison inmate who can walk through walls, clock-watcher who learns to control time, a theif who can turn invisible, and so on. That is why the powers seem to "coincidentally" fit perfectly for many of the characters; because they were made custom-tailored to each character during the creation process. Now, one can easily argue that this means each person's powers are also a metaphor (mostly in the vein of escapism of some sort, e.g. mom with super strength, kid brother who always wants to be like his brother being able to soak up powers, etc.), but unless your opinion meets Wikipedia's notability standards, there's no argument for putting it on the main article. However, I will agree that metaphorical readings of the powers are obviously valid ones in a general sense, especially given that in addition to two siblings (namely, the Petrelli brothers) having very different abilities, we've also seen two cases (Claire and Micah) where a powered child does not have the same powers, or often even remotely similar powers, as one or both powered parents, which would seem to indicate that either the gene or genes can mutate from one generation to the next, or that it's a complex trait or set of traits influenced by more than one gene, or that it's not 100% genes (i.e. combination of nature and nurture, or combination of genetic and non-genetic influences much like metabolism, height, weight and personality all are), or hell, maybe even all or none of the above, depending on the character and the whim of the writers. However, ah, I'm falling into the speculation trap now to, I need to be careful. It's easy to do when trying to write about a show like this!
But yes, it's pretty clear that the powers are also metaphor, but that the "fitting well with the characters" thing is intentional on the part of the writers is really the only verifiable thing we can say about it until someone publishes say, an analysis book on it much like they have for series like Buffy, Firefly, South Park and Harry Potter. I believe it's been noted at least in that recent Wired.com article if nowhere else but I'm almost positive I've seen this noted in multiple places. 63.21.1.192 05:57, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Random Trivia

I'm wondering where to add random parts of trivia about Hiro. For instance, I believe he is one of the few characters who has appeared in every single episode so far. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.192.25.99 (talk) 20:44, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

Integrate them into the narrative of the article. Wikipedia tends to frown on trivia sections. Padillah 15:56, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

When Kimiko and Hiro's father get into the Limo in "Distractions", the license plate says 'NCC 1701'.70.241.95.4 22:44, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I looked at a site regarding solar eclipses, and found some partial solar eclipses for 1671, but no total ones.
Here is NASA's solar eclipse page.
Here is information on the eclipse visible near Japan in that year.

206.148.168.193 19:11, 22 May 2007 (UTC)NotWillDecker

[edit] Name

The name of the senior vice-president of the design division of Nissan is "Shiro Nakamura". This, and the important presence of the Nissan brand in the show are enough in my opinion to include a sentence about this potential link in the Section dedicated to the origin of Hiro's name. I'm re-adding it. Magemax 14:38, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Removed. This is what Wikipedia considers "original research". You'll need to find some reference that states teh show's creators made the choice on that basis, otherwise you're just speculating as to their intent. --Ckatzchatspy 16:54, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Irrelevent. Probably accurate, but until one of the creators says, it's an assumption. It was probably subconscious, otherwise one of the creators would've said something given the similairity and the presence of Nissan.
Theories are allowed at the Heroes Wiki or a message board or something. --EXV // + @ 19:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
However they are not at Wikipedia. Jacobshaven3 22:35, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nakamura

In the section for his name, the Kanji for Nakamura was listed as 「中村」. I removed it because unless this was listed somewhere, 'Nakamura' can be written at least 15 different ways, according to my dictionary. WindOwl 14:46, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

According to the Heroes Japanese website, his name, like all other Western names, is written in katakana - ヒロ・ナカムラ (Hiro Nakamura). Seems odd, especially since it is a Japanese name. But as you noted, there are several ways to write a Japanese name. Andrew Eng 20:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
The only problem is that as a NAME, it is almost never writen in another form. Not only that, but because NBC themselves have stated that Hiro is named after Hiroshima, the symbol used to write Hiroshima (広) should be considered the proper Kanji. Not only that, but although the symbol is used in a compound noun, it is pronounced Hiro by itself, increasing probability that it is correct. WatashiNoAiken 75.162.56.19 03:57, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Power

In "unexpected" Hiro reuses his powers, however, he uses a different power than from before. After the bullet is fired, he makes the bullet return into the gun. However, he did not reverse time. If he had reversed time, then the cops wouldn't have immediately swooped down on Hope. This could either be explained that Hiro reversed time only on the gun / Hope, but left the cops in real time. Or the creators of the show fucked up and didn't realize that their timing of events was wrong. Any thoughts?

Someone wrote in the powers section that he altered time in a specific space. That really doesn't sound plausible to me, but then the whole concept of the show isn't. So I think it's an interpretation of his powers, although it's really stretching believability. Either that or he has telekinesis or something. --EXV // + @ 12:44, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Telekinesis? Bah. Nah, It seems like localized time manipulation, which I don't really see as far fetched really when someone can fly, a girl can repair damage even after her brain has died, et al. All he did, was reverse the bullet specifically. He can already stop time in such a way that he is unaffected, so why not reverse time so that only the bullet is affected? Jacobshaven3 11:21, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
It's trickier than that, Jacob, though I think you're on the right track. If it was just time reversal, why would the bullet refire as soon as time returned? Instead it misfired. Also, it's interesting that he caught a bullet in mid-flight. To the first, one view would be that he stopped then reversed time just for the projectile itself - when it returned to the gun, the explosive had already partially detonated... That still leaves the interesting fact that he reacted faster than a human could react... Twinotter 20:13, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I think he he reversed time on the gun and put it back into normal time before it fired- Redspiderman 3/1

[edit] "(the one present Hiro is currently looking for)"

C'mon folks! Surely this is just speculation? - Ta bu shi da yu 10:29, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

About the Katana? No, it's not speculation to say that the present-day Hiro is looking for the sword that the future Hiro had. Present day Hiro has said that he is looking for it multiple times. It was even a major part of the "Godsend" episode. dposse 21:26, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Katana vs Nodachi

At first, i put Katana as a generic term for a Japanese sword. Since then, Nodachi has replaced it as a more specific name for the sword that Hiro is searching for. Is there any evidence that the term "Nodachi" is more correct than "Katana" in this case? If no one objects, i will change it back to Katana since i do not believe that we can get that specific about the type of sword yet. dposse 21:24, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

When they first hear about Future Hiro's sword, Hiro and Ando refer to it as 剣 (tsurugi), which is a generic term for a sword. Later, they start referring to it as a Katana. I don't recall ever hearing 'nodachi'. WindOwl 14:50, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Appearances

Someone changed the trivia that Hiro is one of two characters to be in every episode to three, the other being Mr. Bennet. I don't believe this is true, and if it is, it's not on the other's pages. It also doesn't validate much, it's cool but that's it. Why don't we say that Hiro is the only one to be portrayed by three actors for Young Hiro, Present Hiro, and Future Hiro? None of it really seems to matter.

Or we could get rid of the trivia section like we're supposed to. Padillah 01:21, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discrepancy with power?

The first time Hiro jumped to the future in Genesis and Don't Look Back, he had been missing for five weeks, most likely due to the fact that he wasn't there to live through that time because he skipped it. But it doesn't seen to correlate to what's happening now with him jumping five years into the future and meeting himself. Time travel is always confusing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.203.136.254 (talk) 16:23, 27 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Just saying

When hiro and ando walk in to find their future selves, there's all that string with events posted on them. I'm pretty sure that is suppose to be a timeline of events. The reason it zig-zags all over the room would be because of all the time traveling he's done and events he's tried to change. Just saying

[edit] Hiro in "Company Man"

If the baby Kaito gives to Mr. Bennet is Claire, the episode has to be set more than thirteen years in the past; at least fifteen, as Claire is listed as being sixteen in Genesis and can't be more than a year old in Company Man. Hiro looks to be about seven rather than ten.

[edit] Hiro/Oka nominated for 2007 Spaceys

http://www.spacecast.com/microsites/spaceys07/viewersChoice/tv_character/ Can this be linked to ASAP? The voting ends this week and he's badly in need of votes for a chance to win. 205.150.14.236 14:57, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contradict tag

I have added a contradict tag to the trivia section. It states

"As of "The Hard Part", Hiro is one of only three characters to appear in every episode of the series, although Hiro appeared as a child during a flashback in "Company Man". The other characters are Claire Bennet and Mr. Bennet, who are the only characters to be portrayed by the same actor in every episode."

though the Claire Bennet article states

"As of "Five Years Gone", Claire is the only character to appear in every episode portrayed by the same actor."

Does Mr. Bennet appear in each episode, portrayed by the same actor, Jack Coleman? According to Coleman's IMDb, he is not credited for appearing in "Nothing to Hide", but I am not sure this is completely accurate. Can anyone confirm that Jack Coleman, as Mr. Bennet, appears or does not appear in "Nothing to Hide"? --WillMak050389 00:15, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

I can confirm that Mr. Bennet indeed does not appear in Nothing to Hide (Heroes --Piemanmoo 01:35, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hiro inspired by (or homage to) Hiro Protagonist in SNOW CRASH?

Has no one noticed that the "Hiro with a samurai katana" might be inspired by Hiro Protagonist from Snow Crash? -- David Spalding (☎ ✉ ✍) 19:19, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Whether he may or may not be inspired would not be the issue, but whether a citable source could be found from one of the show's writers or creators that states that Hiro is inspired from any source. PureSoldier 19:31, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
You really think a Japanese guy named Hiro with a sword is unique enought to make this kind of assumption? You don't read much do you? PureSoldier has the prevailing point though: it's been said before and it'll be said again, Wikipedia is not about truth, it's about verifiability. Padillah 12:09, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Adventures in the Future

I know that there is an effort to reduce the character articles, but I'm not sure how far that's gone, but even if they aren't reduced the section on his adventures in the future is overly confusing. Someone who has watched the show should understand what's going on, but someone unfamiliar with it might be confused. Since it is in the future it has many instances of calling characters "future" whoever or "present" whoever. The wording just seems really confusing when I tried to read the section, but I'm not really sure how to clean it up because the section does give an accurate summary of events. There has to be an easier way to refer to the characters though. I guess if there is an effort to cut out a lot of the plot summaries in these articles the point will be moot, but if not are there any suggestions to make it flow better? Phydend 17:38, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thousand cranes

I'm sorry, but there says Hiro folded 1000 origami cranes. Have we counted this? I don't think so. He talks about origamis, and then Charlie adds the tradition, there is no proof that he has folded 1000 of'em. I'm saying this because that sentence aims to contradict the fact that Hiro can't stop time for long. I think, that sentence should at least be changed to "it is implied that he has folded 1000 cranes while the time has been stopped.", if not completely removed.

Exactly what I thought the previous time. Please do remove the mention of a specific number. --Kizor 07:01, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
IIRC, in an interview they said that it was way more than 1000 cranes, because 1000 didn't fill up the room enough. Ophois 02:53, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
You know, he could have folded them in his spare time. Maybe he froze time, walked to the back of the diner, or wherever, and grabbed the box of cranes, and hung them up, then unfroze time. Besides, this was before his power faded. ZZ Claims ~ Evidence 18:52, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia is getting out of hand

I can understand why some of the entries are there. But, are we really interested that a Battōdō school has the same name? And even so I have no interest in his appearance on a POSTER in someone's room in a comic book! I am deleting those two items as uninteresting to the main article. Padillah 19:02, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] There's already a Hiro's Blog

Unless I get some pushback I'm deleting any trivia point that says "Hiro's blog says..." There's already a Niro's Blog the user can read it if they like. Or we can create an article for Hiro's Blog and recap there if you like, but I don't think these entries are appropriate for this article in any case. Padillah 12:19, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hiro's Sword

Hiro's sword isn't really a Ontological paradox. Future Hiro would have gotten his sword from Linderman like Current Hiro, not from another Future Hiro. Current Hiro managed to change the timeline, so he's not going to end up giving it to himself. The sword didn't just come into creation; it is just an older version of the same sword. Ophois 02:52, 9 September 2007 (UTC)