Talk:Hippo (Greek woman)

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 1 December 2007. The result of the discussion was No consensus.

[edit] Valerius Maximus Book 6 ,Chapter 1, ext 1

Looking at Brown's book page 247 she gives the sources for LIII. HIPPO, A GREEK WOMAN as Val. Max. VI.I, ext I. On page 238 of her Notes she identifies Val. Max. as Valerius Maximus, Factorum at dictorum memorabilium. This is then identifying Hippo with Book 6 and everything in that chapter, which happens to pertain to chastity. Therefore all the material I put in pertains to Hippo per this reference. Also identically the same thing is references in Guarino, G. A., Boccaccio, Concerning Famous Women (New Brunswick, N.J., 1963) on page 116 of his book. In that 1963 edition of Guarino's translation, Hippo is called Chapter LI. Boccaccio, of course, doesn't state all his sources. Guarino gives an appendix on pages 253 to 257 headed 'SOURCES OF CONCERNING FAMOUS WOMEN', explaining

“ Boccaccio's sources for many of these chapters are listed in Attilio Hortis, Studi sulle Opere Latine del Boccaccio (Trieste, 1879), and in Laura Torretta, "Il Liber De Claris Mulieribus di Giovanni Boccaccio", Giornale Storico della Letteratura Italiana, XXXIX (1902). A number of inaccuracies in these works have been eliminated. ”

In this appendix, "Val. Max." is defined as "Valerius Maximus, De Factis Dictisque Memorabilibus" and it's stated as a source (in most cases the only identified source) for chapters XXIX, LI (Val. Max. vi. I. ext. I), LII, LV, LX, LXIII, LXV, LXVI, LXVII, LXX-LXXIV, LXXVI, LXXIX-LXXXIII, and LXXXVII. The note on Valerius as the source for LI (Hippo) is on page 255. The material I put in is justified based on these references (Brown and Guarino). Valerius Maximus Book 6 ,Chapter 1, ext 1 Book 6, Chapter 1 Roman Stories Brown even explains further on page 235 Note on the Text that her translation is based mostly on Vittorio Zaccaria's Italian translation and that Zaccaria based his on the autograph witness (Florence, Biblioteca Medicea Lautrenziana 90 sup. 98 (Gaddi 593) which dates from the last period Boccaccio lived. This was Boccaccio's text of Famous Women in its final form. Guarino's edition was based on the 1539 Bern edition, a vulgate text derived from a redaction of the text prior to that whhich appears in the autograph used by Zaccaria. If you have no further objections I'll be putting my text back in. --Doug talk 22:15, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I would say those sources justify including a statement that Boccaccio used Valerius Maximus as a source. They don't justify devoting 80% of the article to a very detailed summary of Valerius that doesn't even refer to the nominal subject of the article. (It would be very easy to find scholarly sources saying that the Aeneid was influenced by the Iliad, but I hope it's clear why the Aeneid article shouldn't summarise that entire poem.) EALacey (talk) 23:06, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Appreciate your answer. The way I see the biography that Boccaccio wrote is how the English translation of Brown interpretes it for the last sentence

“ This was destined to remain for a long time as a memorial to the chastity she had preserved; it teaches us that the light of virtue cannot be obscured by the shadows of adverse fortune. ”

Previously User:Asarelah tagged it with a "Peacock Terms" template which in a nutshell is: Instead of telling the reader that a subject is important, use facts to show the subject's importance. I used the examples of Valerius Maximus Book 6 Chapter 1 that show stories pertaining to chastity. I believe the normal subject of the article is "chastity", not Hippo the Greek woman. Boccaccio used her as a vehicle to illustrate the subject of the article. As I wrote in the first paragraph "She is noted for a single virtuous act." I'll shorten the amount of text that will be put back in. Second thought, make you a deal you cann't resist - agree to remove the "clarify" tag and I'll leave the article as it stands. --Doug talk 23:34, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

On the 'clarify' tag, I rather think EALacey means only that "it has been determined" is too vague, and that it would be better (which it would) to say by whom and where. Guarino refers to Attilio Hortis and Laura Torretta, and strictly speaking you should read them before citing them, but I think it would be fair to add their names with a citation to p. 253 of Guarino, which I have in front of me. Or if you prefer, I'll do it. On leaving the article as it stands, that's a little defeatist. There are surely enough ancient references to Hippo to make her notable, but as it stands the article can be improved on. Xn4 00:13, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I added the "clarifyme" tag because I didn't understand whether Valerius Maximus was supposed to be the source for Boccaccio's life of Hippo, or for the On Famous Women in general, particularly since the summary of Valerius Maximus you included didn't mention Hippo. It turns out from the references you quote that Hippo does appear in Valerius Maximus (6.ext.1). You appear to have misunderstood your sources as referring to 6.1.1-13, where Hippo isn't mentioned.
The excessive length of the summary that was added is a separate issue. Even if the secondary sources had supported the view that Boccaccio's remarks about Hippo were based on all of Valerius Maximus 6.1, the summary would have been vastly disproportionate (just like devoting 80% of the Aeneid article to Homer). If the subject of the article is not actually Hippo, as you seem to suggest, then the article should be renamed and rewritten, or perhaps recreated from scratch under a title like Chastity in Boccaccio. (And even there, lengthy summaries of other authors would be inappropriate.) EALacey (talk) 08:58, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
On that point, I suggested to Doug Coldwell on my talk page yesterday that he might like to start an article on Factorum ac dictorum memorabilium, and I believe he likes that idea. Xn4 14:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)