Talk:Hindu-Arabic numeral system

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WikiProject Middle Ages To do:

1 Western numerals are used West of Egypt
2 Deeptrivia, let's talk here please
3 The phrase "standard Arabic numerals"
4 Please insert only numerals that use the Hindu-Arabic numeral system
5 Image, Brahmi numerals
6 Redirect
7 Clean up
8 terminiology
9 "Arabic" number system is a misnomer
10 aSTakarNa
11 Use of Zero
12 Counting angles
13 First line of text
14 rename to "Indo-Arabic"

[edit] Western numerals are used West of Egypt

Please see this page from the American Academy of Actuaries as an example of verificaiton and find this sentence.

"(Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and Libya use only Western numerals.)"[1]

I will therefore modify the article to this effect. Regards. csssclll (23:09, 13 December 2005 (UTC))

Deeptrivia, I put the quote just as it appeared on the page, verbatim, please explain your phrase "Reference says exactly opposite of what you claimed!" csssclll (23:25, 13 December 2005 (UTC))

Sorry that was my mistake. That's why I reverted the page. Now answer the question below or revert the page back to how it was. deeptrivia (talk) 23:45, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Deeptrivia, let's talk here please

You left some of the content changes I made intact, and made some punctuation changes I was too tired to pay attention to last night, so I thank you for all that and I assume good will. Let's discuss things here, please. Regards and thanks. csssclll (23:21, 13 December 2005 (UTC))

Is Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and Libya part of the WORLD or not? Doesn't the article say these are used "worldwide"? Why should we mention those four countries in particular? If we start making a list, there will be a list of more than 150 countries using "only" these symbols, and no other symbols at all. deeptrivia (talk) 23:23, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Deeptrivia, thanks a lot. Because those are the Arabic (Western) Numerals and those 4 countries are Arabic countries and are the countries with which these numerals are associated whether for Europeans or Arabs; this is not the case for more than 150 countries of the world. I agree though that the countries need not be named (the literal quote I insterted for verification as you requested) and a phrase such as "used in western parts of the Arab world, west of Egypt" would suffice, to mirror the one below for Arabic-Indic numerals. Also, as it stands, its placement could be altered. The phrase "used in western parts of the Arab world, west of Egypt" could precede "western countries and worldwide". csssclll (23:49, 13 December 2005 (UTC))

[edit] The phrase "standard Arabic numerals"

Deeptrivia, I looked at the phrase "standard Arabic numerals" yesterday. In the English language, in general usage, when the phrase "standard Arabic numerals" is used it usually (in fact, almost always) refers to Western numerals (1, 2, 3, 4). Here are examples (find the phrase "standard Arabic numerals) [2] [3] [4] "The numbers shall be standard Arabic numerals (i.e., 1234)" [5], and many, many more examples.

As for calling the Arabic-Indic numerals the "standard Arabic numerals", this seems mostly in relation to Eastern Arabic-Indic numerals, the ones used in Iran and Pakistan. This is for the English language; the Arabs, as you know already, just call them the Indian numerals.

Google it and you'll see. And let me know what you find. Regards, and thanks. csssclll (00:08, 14 December 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Please insert only numerals that use the Hindu-Arabic numeral system

The numeral symbol set:

MUST have a symbol for ZERO.
MUST be a DECIMAL, POSITIONAL system. This means "thirty" is represented using "3" and "0"

For example Brahmi numerals are not included in the list because they do not satisfy the above two properties. deeptrivia (talk) 01:38, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Comment accepted, I removed Arabic-Rwmy numerals. Regards. csssclll (01:43, 14 December 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Image, Brahmi numerals

Where does this image come from? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Indian_numerals_100AD.gif What's its source? I request verification to a reliable please, otherwise I may be obliged to remove it. Thanks csssclll(04:00, 13 December 2005 (UTC))

Look at [6], your favorite source. deeptrivia (talk) 02:01, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks deeptrivia. Acknowledged and accepted, regards. csssclll (18:29, 14 December 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Redirect

I'm not sure why it was changed, but it makes a lot more sense for this (Hindu-Arabic numerals) to redirect to Arabic numerals than to have Hindu-Arabic numeral system redirect here.

All of you latecomers to this discussion need to read all that has been discussed before making unilateral changes like that. Articles called "Numerals" should refer to the numeral symbols; Articles called "Numeral system" will refer to the numeral system. Of all the things argued about, that was one that probably almost everyone agreed on. Peyna 18:44, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The term "Hindu-Arabic numerals" is used for the symbols "0".."9". deeptrivia (talk) 18:48, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

ok, I moved the article back to "system". But how would you call the ensemble of glyphs including [۰,۱,۲, ۳, ۴, ۵, ۶, ۷, ۸, ۹], [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9], and all intervening shapes occurring in Early Modern documents? They are all the same system, and the glyphs are morphing into one another over time. If "Hindu-Arabic numerals" redirects to the Western variant, people will be tempted to add generic information about the system there, leading to the conflict you just had. Maybe we need Hindu-Arabic numerals (glyphs) vs. Hindu-Arabic numerals (system) with Hindu-Arabic numerals a dab page. But if you insist on reserving "Hindu-Arabic" for the Western glyphs for some reason, that still leaves us without a name for the system itself (and the symbols are of course inseparable from the system). dab (ᛏ) 19:24, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

There is only one system. The concepts of base 10, and place value, and zero are identical everywhere. So there are no Western and Eastern variants of the system itself. The only difference is in the glyphs. There should be one article on the Hindu-Arabic numerals (for "Western" symbols "0","1", ...), one article on Indian glyph variants (since there isn't much to say about these individual glyphs to merit a separate article) and one Hindu-Arabic numeral system. It would be fine to have Hindu-Arabic numerals (glyphs) and Hindu-Arabic numerals (system) with Hindu-Arabic numerals a dab page, too. Cheers :) deeptrivia (talk) 19:40, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I think Hindu-Arabic numerals (glyphs) and Hindu-Arabic numerals (system) is a well thought of, and a perfect solution, since it would avoid all sorts of confusions and mess-ups. deeptrivia (talk) 19:43, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

ok, but let's talk about it on Talk:Arabic_numerals, it's pointless to have the same discussion in two places. I daresay there is much to say about the Indian glyph variants too, documenting the adoption in all these various cultures.dab (ᛏ) 20:54, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

For the sake of an illiterate like me, may I suggest "Hindu-Arabic numerals (symbols)" instead of "Hindu-Arabic numerals (glyphs)"? Though the later is more technically correct, symbol is more commonly understood than glyph. --ΜιĿːtalk 08:14, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Both are fine with me. As far as I am concerned, I think the word "numerals" itself means "glyphs" or "numerals", so that should be sufficient, but there's no harm in clarifying further. On a lighter note, it's okay to come across new words when reading an encyclopedia (where else would you come across them?) This is how learning happens! deeptrivia (talk) 18:51, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

anther problem, this article is by all appearances not just about the system (which would be the scope of Algorism). It also compares the symbol variants (there is even a list), which is beyond the scope of the mere system. It makes sense to do this here, mind, it just needs to be taken into account when pondering the best title. dab (ᛏ) 13:36, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

We had agreed not to add anything about glyphs at all on this page. However, when I had made this list, I chose to add it here despite this, since I thought I had two choices: to add it on the "numerals" page, or to add it on "numeral system" page. Both were inappropriate, but adding it on the "numerals" page (supposed to be about only one of the elements of the list) was a complete non-starter. I thought although this article is not about glyphs, it can at least mention the glyphs used with the system in one section. I think a more correct solution will be to have a separate List of glyphs used with the Hindu-Arabic numeral system (this list can potentially grow much longer), and put it under "See also" on this page. "Algorism" indeed means the exact same thing as Hindu-Arabic numeral system, and I'll accept whichever of these terms conforms better with WP:MoS (e.g., we can have "Algorism" and "Hindu-Arabic numerals" as two articles, if that is preferable according to MoS.) deeptrivia (talk) 18:44, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

as it stands now, there is no reason not to merge the "glyphs" article into this one: it is a sub-article of this, and only this, article, and both articles are rather short. --dab (𒁳) 09:27, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clean up

This article started with the intention of talking only about the numeral system. Now even the introduction talks mostly about the glyphs. A major cleanup is required soon. deeptrivia (talk) 20:04, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

$x = \mathop{\rm sign}(x) \sum_{i\in\mathbb Z} a_i\,10^i$

with no connection to anything either Hindu or Arabic in particular. No, the "Hindu-Arabic" bit is tied up with the glyphs and their development. dab (ᛏ) 09:43, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Incidently, $x = \mathop{\rm sign}(x) \sum_{i\in\mathbb Z} a_i\,10^i$ defines the Hindu-Arabic numeral system, regardless of the form a_i take. "numerals" bit is tied with the glyphs, of course, but here we are talking about the "numeral system" . If these were the same, we wouldn't have required two separate articles. deeptrivia (talk) 20:27, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] terminiology

well, the terminology is getting confusing now (but I think we are getting there). According to the "Symbols" section, the numerals are divided into two "families",

"Eastern Arabic numerals, also called "Eastern Arabic numerals", "Arabic-Indic numerals", "Arabic Eastern Numerals", including (as subsets) "Arabic-Indic" and "East Arabic-Indic" (already, one subset is labelled identical to the whole)
"Western Arabic numerals", including European 0-9, and their immediate Maghreb predecessors for which we show no glyphs.

So this leaves out the entire set of Indian numerals. Should we not rather talk about "three families", then? Or is this "family" talk at all justified? dab (ᛏ) 10:27, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I haven't seen "Arabic" is attached to any numerals apart from those already covered within "Eastern" and "Western" branches, which is understandable, because they were never used by Arabs themselves. I'm not quite sure if the family talk is justified, because all these numerals have the same origin, and have undergone "equal amounts" of evolution (so are equally different from each other.) The only criterion for making such families can be current geographical distribution, and then we can possibly talk about the "Hindu-Arabic numerals" (universally used standard numerals), Arabic (various glyphs used in Arabic countries), Indian (used in India), etc. deeptrivia (talk) 20:35, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Arabic" number system is a misnomer

Honestly, what did the Arabs do for this number system? The reason why it is so great is because it is a base 10 number system with 10 numerals, including 0, and a decimal system. The Hindus/Indians created this so why do we distinguish the Arabs at all for their contribution when it is is virutally nothing? What did the Arabs do? They just brought the number system to Europe and maybe changed the way a few numbers were written. So does that really constitute us calling it the Hindu-"Arabic" number system? Westerns should be more informed of this wrongdoing which is only propagated by ignorance or religious fundamentalism.

This number system is one of the contributions of Ancient India to the modern world. As such, using the word "Arab" to describe this number system is offensive to the 1 billion Indians. People shouldn't dignify the Arab contribution which only came at the mass killing of so many Indians in their bid for world conquest.

--Le Vrai 15:59, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Here's what the Arabs did: the Arabs introduced the numbers to Europe, thereby getting their name attached to them for Europeans. This is English wikipedia, so we use the English name. See WP:NAME for our naming conventions. We're not here to decide whether it's a misnomer, we're here to talk about the numbers under the name by which they're known. -lethe ^{talk +} 03:20, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

It is known that the Arabs adopted the Indian digits in a peacefull and propser period, a period of scientific progress, that they changed the form of the characters and introduced them to Europe. However, we can discuss the name, at least on the Discussion page. It may seem curious to tell that Indians use a Hinou-Arabic numeral system while the Arabs didn't take part to the developpement of Devanagari, Gujarati, etc. numerals. When we talk about Hindou-arabic, Arabic or Indic numerals, which numerals are inclued (European, Arabic, Indic)? The name "Hindou-Arabic" is known, that's true. But the title of an article is often a question of choice too. Isn't the name "positional decimal (numeral) system" used too? I wrote the page Écriture décimale positionnelle in French, for I thought that, in this case, a description of the thing was less ambiguous than a name based on the origins, which are not clear. A positional decimal system was also developped in China. Perhaps the Indians adapted this system to their own digits, perhaps they developped the system by themselves... I don't really understand why we could'nt say on the main page that an other name can be used, or that a name used can be ambiguous. Baleer 19:52, 4 June 2006 (CEST)

I'm sorry, but so what are you saying? Are you proposing that we change the name to positional decimal system? -lethe ^{talk +} 22:20, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Basically, a couple of days ago, he renamed the article Système de numération arabo-indien to Écriture décimale positionnelle writing in the edit summary that the article is also supposed to cover Chinese systems, which were also positional and decimal. These topics are, however, already covered in fr:Notation positionnelle and fr:Nombre décimal. Then, there's an article fr:Chiffre arabo-indien corresponding to the article on Hindu-Arabic numerals on the english wikipedia. My experience on the French wikipedia is, there's almost never any discussion on what's going on, and who's doing what. My take is, yes there are other positional decimal systems, but this article is about one of them. We do have articles on positional systems and decimal systems, and I'm not completely sure, if we need one for the combination "positional decimal." deeptrivia (talk) 00:03, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I am envious of the chart that the french article has, it being more comprehensive than any we seem to have. Do we have an article into which it would be appropriate to import that chart? Did every system on that chart descend from the Brahmi numerals? -lethe ^{talk +} 00:12, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I suggest glyphs used with the Hindu-Arabic numeral system. The table can be extended even further. deeptrivia (talk) 00:38, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

PS: yes, they are all believed to have descended from Brahmi numerals. deeptrivia (talk) 00:40, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't say there is a need to change the name of the article. I just suggested that we could say in the article why the system is called Hindu-Arabic whereas the Arabs didn't take part of developpement of Indians numerals. In French, there was a confusion, for the terms were not clearly defined. The article fr:numération arabe was called "numération arabo-indienne" whereas abjad numerals, which are describe in the article, have not an Indian origin... The articles fr:Développement décimal or fr:Nombre décimal are not talking about the same topic, for they are talking about mathematical definitions. If there is no need for a combination of "positional" and "decimal" system, then there is no need for an article Hindu-Arabic numeral system, for it refers to such a combination... If you think I was wrong to rename "système de numération arabo-indien", or to ask to rename "numération arabo-indienne", please write a message on French Wikipedia. You can also write a message on my Discussion page. Thanks. Baleer 13:49, 5 June 2006 (CEST) P.S. The article fr:Chiffre arabo-indien should correspond to the article Glyphs used with the Hindu-Arabic numeral system...

Well, naming the abjad numerals article "numération arabo-indienne", was obviously wrong, but as you rightly pointed out, Écriture décimale positionnelle is best covered under "numération arabo-indienne", just like it's done here, and then, there's no need for a separate article on "positional and decimal" combination. deeptrivia (talk) 13:23, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

For the moment, I prefer the name "Écriture décimale positionnelle" in french, because there were to many confusions on French Wikipedia between decimal system, positional system and Hindou-Arabic system, which is a combination of decimal and positional, and also between Arabic, European and Hindu-Arabic digits. I do not consider that the French or the English name is better than the other. Concerning Decimal, I notice that it corresponds to different notions in french: fr:Développement décimal, fr:Nombre décimal and fr:Système décimal. That may explain our different point of view. In the English article Decimal, the paragraph "Decimal notation" only talks about european positional decimal notation (which corresponds to the article decimal representation), "Alternative notation" talks about non-decimal systems, and the paragraph "History" talks about positional and non-positional decimal systems. It seems there is some confusion in english too. Baleer 18:07, 5 June 2006 (CEST)

[edit] aSTakarNa

I would not have to explain my revert, but RV 10.62.7 has aSTakarNI, meaning "a cow branded/pierced at the ear". aSTa- "branded" is from a root akS, unrelated to aSTan- "eight", as is recognized by Panini himself. I am tired of these over-confident, half-researched, misspelled additions. Even if there was a case for "eight", the addition was shoddy, uncited and completely misspelled. Even if it had been spelled correctly, it would be unrelated to the article's topic, which is not Rigvedic cattle branding: Even if some Rigvedic cowboy pierced eight holes into some poor cow's ear, this would prove people could count to eight in the Bronze Age (we knew that), but it would be unrelated to the Hindu-Arabic numerals, or even the Brahmi numerals. The poorly formatted blurb on Pingala is based on a misconception treated at (you guessed it): Pingala. It would be a great world in which people interested in a topic, even in a topic related to India (gasp) would do a minimal amount of scholarly research instead of all this breathless suprematism. dab (ᛏ) 23:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Dab, Pls write only what is relevant to the development of this article. You can try all sorts of "gasping" in your "fatherland". Regarding your statements about "breathless Suprematism" let me say one thing ,NO BODY I repeat NO BODY can outmatch you ,germans in that "PLAY" , just ask those poor EIGHT MILLION souls .

Lets leave our Rigvedic cowboys , but why did you delete the "Usage of Zero " just because it is a "poorly" formatted "blurb"??Bharatveer 04:02, 2 July 2006 (UTC)05:14, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I am not German. And, no, it will not do for everybody here to add senseless hype to topics about their respective "fatherlands", that is pathetic. Since you have just Godwined this conversation, it is over anyway. I did delete your addition because it was worthless, and I ask you again to do some research before creating workload for other Wikipedians who have to clean up after you. dab (ᛏ) 13:24, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Use of Zero

Pingalacharya's Chandasastra (500-200 B.C) appears to be the first book in which application of Zero (Soonya) is given for writing numbers .Paulisa Siddhanta (200 A.D) and the Surya Siddhanta (400 A.D) have also used Soonya and Kha.As for the development of the numeral 0 as per modern usage , it has undergone only minor changes during the process of development.The Ancient Kashmiri book (dated First Century B.C) on Atharva Veda used big circular dots , sufficiently large for giving folio numbers.This was first observed by Maurice Bloomfield and Richard Garbe in 1901 .Bakshali manuscripts also contain similar small cirular dots representing Zero. "

What is senseless hype here?? You cannot delete anything JUST because you think it is "Worthless". Give your reasons too.Bharatveer

this is better than your Rigvedic stuff, but the formatting is horrible, it is unwikified and unreferenced. Your dates are pulled out of thin air, a range 300 BC-1BC is more likely for Pingala for example. What is your source for all this? "Soonya" (properly, śūnya) means "empty". Our Pingala article is not aware that the Chandas-shastra (not "Chandasastra") uses the term to denote a numeral sign. I have no idea whether your references to manuscripts are accurate. Are we talking about actual 1st century manuscript fragments, or post-9th century manuscripts of older texts? What was first observed by Bloomfield and Garbe in 1901? Where did they make the observation? Am I supposed to read the entire academic output of 1901 to verify this? Really, Bharatveer, I have to invest 20 minutes to get you to reduce your silly Rigvedic edit to this? There might be some kernel of truth in it, but how are our readers supposed to know what of this is correct, what of it you found somewhere on the internet, and what is your own invention? What is more, the shunya/kha part is completely irrelevant for this topic. We are only talking about anything like the H-A system with bindu, viz. your Kashmiri reference. Cite a source saying that some 1st century manuscript numbers its pages with zero symbols, and I'll not touch it. What is the meaning of "sufficiently large for giving folio numbers"? Look, if you cannot make proper edits, you should not expect them to be kept. I could invest two hours trying to save anything of merit in your edit. Send me a check and I'll do your research for you. dab (ᛏ) 14:42, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I have re-added the text with reference and quotes . You are still showing your rude behaviour. why should i sent you any check , when your are getting "paid" regularly for all your "good works" ? I would suggest that discussion can be better done without issuing insults.Bharatveer 16:37, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

oh yeah? who made the oblique holocaust reference, assuming I was German? Your contributions were shoddy, Bharatveer, and you showed no redeeming qualities of collaboration. I'll try to save what little merit is in your edit. Note WP:SS, there is a main article History of the Hindu-Arabic numeral system where your more tangential musings may have a place. dab (ᛏ) 17:25, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

OK. It appears you are trying to make a point about use of positional zero in the 1st century BC. These topics are treated on positional notation, 0 (number), History of the Hindu-Arabic numeral system. It is undisputed that BCE authors in India used "shunya" to say "nothing" or "zero". This has nothing to do with the numeral system. If you can cite your following assertion, otoh, it is pertinent:

"The Ancient Kashmiri book"^{[citation needed]} (dated to the 1st century BC^{[citation needed]}) used big circular dots to indicate something^{[citation needed]}, as was first observed by Maurice Bloomfield and Richard Garbe in 1901^{[citation needed]}

what manuscript, dated by whom, how are these circular dots employed, and what was observed by Bloomfield and Garbe, in which publication? dab (ᛏ) 17:36, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I will ignore your continuing insults. I haver reverted to my version. If you feel it needs further citations, you can add tags for that.But you cannot unilaterally remove the whole thing. This is absolutely relavant here as Zero is mentioned as a part of numerical system. Bharatveer 18:26, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

no. How is it relevant that Pingala could calculate 1 minus 1 equals nothing? This has nothing to do with any numeral system, just with number theory. Go to zero (number) (if you have anything new to add). I am really interested in your "Ancient Kashmiri book", but until you cite that, this case is closed. Do you know what a numeral system is? You refer to "numerical system", so I think you may not even be aware of this article's topic. You should read a couple of articles before wasting people's time. dab (ᛏ) 18:47, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Judge , Jury and executioner all-in-one . GREAT. I can understand why you like this system .60-70 years is too short a time to forget old ways.Bharatveer 18:58, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Bharatveer, this article is about the numeral zero, and not the concept of zero (shunya). These details belong to 0 (number), and could at most merit a line or two here (e.g., "Although the concept of zero is older, .... ".) Go modify the 0 (number) article, which is defying all definitions of history and pre-history by putting 5th century BC scholars and their books in the pre-history section. deeptrivia (talk) 19:20, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand, "Prehistory of zero" treats predecessors of the concept, the claim is not that these fall into the prehistoric period. Bharatveer didn't present anything that is not already in the zero article. Also, if Bharatveer doesn't lay off the Nazi allusions, I'll ask to have him blocked as a troll. Which would save everybody time, too. I know this is Wikipedia, but editors cannot be asked to put up with that sort of nonsense. dab (ᛏ) 19:33, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I see. Do you think, though, that the concept of zero (number) with Greeks and Romans, such as using the word "nihil" (compare to "shunya") belongs to "history" any more than the Indian ones? I agree with the other things you said, based on past experience. deeptrivia (talk) 19:46, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

of course not. Indian shunya and kha are duly mentioned on 0 (number) and rightly so. The concept of "zero" is certainly prehistoric, too, we are looking at early formalizations of the concept. The article is also right in stating that the earliest evidence of such formalization is found in 2nd millennium BC Babylonia. It is also justified to mention Panini's "NOP" operator (I suppose, although that's not "0 (number)" but "0 (operator)"), but Bharatveer-style over-zeal seems to have inserted "shoonya" there, which is not Panini's term. It is undisputed that India made extremely important contributions to science in the millennium 500 BCE - 500 CE, in fact it would be a joke to dispute that. I just wish that people would do a minimal amount of research before they add their stuff. Yes, Panini had a zero operator. No, it was not called shunya. Why claim it was called shunya if you don't know and didn't check?? People like Bharatveer seem to assume that because they are Indian, they must automatically be an expert on Indian history. Which is a terrible and extremely stupid mistake. dab (ᛏ) 20:11, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

In that case, that article requires a cleanup too. Probably this ongoing discussion could be shifted there. We could discuss what all from the history section could better go into the prehistory section, and whether it will be a good idea to rename the prehistory section to something like "precursors to zero" to remove ambiguity. I am aware of the kind of over-zealous edits (that sometimes involves making every historical thing "Vedic") that seriously needs to be checked. deeptrivia (talk) 20:26, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Counting angles

Is there serious evidence for this? [7] looks deeply implausible since nobody writes or wrote numbers like this. --Henrygb 15:50, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, this was discussed before (Talk:Arabic_numerals#Angle_explanation_for_glyphs.3F.) Not only do we don't write numbers like this today, but numbers were never written like this during their entire evolution, starting from the Brahmi numerals from which our modern symbols evolved. See also http://home.c2i.net/greaker/comenius/9899/indiannumerals/Image71.jpg . For further information, see The Universal History of Numbers: From Prehistory to the Invention of the Computer by Georges Ifrah. deeptrivia (talk) 20:32, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

The Small Abacus of Al-Khwarizmi. This figure explain a “New Theory On The Graphical Roots Of The Modern European Numbers”. Each number we use today should be read as a numeric ideogram and the numbers were defined using simple arithmetic: a) The numbers 1 (one), 2 (two), 3 (three) and 4 (four), were based on additives angles. b) The numbers 5 (five), 6 (six), 7 (seven), 8 (eight), 9 (nine), and o (ten) were defined using the knowledge about the abacus manuscript notations. The especial abacus used had a base-five/ten like the human hands.Roberto Lyra (talk) 21:39, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] First line of text

The first line of text in this article should discuss why this numeral system is called Arabic or Hindu-Arabic in the west, and clear up confusion about its origin. The role of works of knowledge like Wikipedia also includes refinement and correction of previously mislabeled or incorrect information, as new information comes to light. Yes, the west has been mistaken for years in calling this numeral system Arabic, does that mean it should continue ad infinitum? It seems strange that "ownership" of development of knowledge and inventions is so vigorously pursued in the west, yet in this page it is treated as petty when pursued by Indians over a matter as significant as the numeral system used by the majority of the world. The ultimate goal should be the relabeling of this system to a more accurate name. Names change, knowledge is updated, inaccuracies shouldn't stay static due to convention. 76.175.190.79 (talk) 19:36, 29 December 2007 (UTC)Maxe

see WP:NAME: Wikipedia doesn't "correct" terminology, or introduce neologisms. --dab (𒁳) 12:24, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] rename to "Indo-Arabic"

The incidence of "Indo-Arabic" compared to that of "Hindu-Arabic" appears to hover around 1:10 (google count). Clearly not the more common term. A move to "Indo-Arabic" would need an excellently argued rationale. --dab (𒁳) 12:22, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

The term "Hindu" refers to the religion of India, whereas, the term "Indo" refers to the Indian Subcontinent and the Ancient Civilization of INDUS VALEY CIVILIZATION where the numbers really evolved. Moreover, I have never heard the term "Hindu European".. have you? the largest family of languages common to India and Europe is called INDO-EUROPEAN LANGUAGES, and NOT Hindu-European. Similarly, the numerals themselves have nothing to do with Hindu that is religion, otherwise, one would prefer calling them Hindu-Muslim numerals, since the Arabs are dominantly a muslim society. Thus, the term INDO-ARABIOC is more proper and correct one and is SECULAR. Therefore I propose changing the title to INDO-ARABIC Numerals. Aursani (talk) 11:05, 7 May 2008 (UTC)