Talk:Hindkowans

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[edit] Title

Shouldn't this page be called Hindko people or moved back to Hindkowans? It's Wikipedia policy to use the most common term for something—here are some Goolge numbers:

Khoikhoi 04:33, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

You can go ahead and move the page again if you would like. I requested a move to follow the convention of other articles pertaining to ethnic groups (i.e. Tamil people, Punjabi people, Pashtun people, etc.) In your opinion, what is the best title for the article? With regards, AnupamTalk 05:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
The problem is, although "Hindko people" gets more Google hits, all the websites seem to be pretty unreliable (many of them are just internet fourms). I think we should go with "Hindkowans"; although I prefer the use of "XXX people" in ethnic group articles, other pages such as Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks, Greeks, Armenians, etc. use the short name. Khoikhoi 20:04, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Yeah I agree too. Since all the other articles are named as such. The best template to develop this article would be the Pashtun people article as well. Tombseye 17:43, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Population Figures

I haven't been able to find many sources that discuss Hindkowan population figures. As a result, the current sources will have to do for now. Thanks, AnupamTalk 06:39, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

You have to check the figures. The Hindus aren't Hindkowans, but Western Punjabis. Click on the Aroras and the Khatris of Pakistan in the Hindkowan section and none of them speak Hindko, but rather Punjabi. Hindkowan is a specific group of mixed Pashtun and Punjabi origin and is not "Indo-Aryan", but rather transitional as Brittanica explains. There is no record of Hindu Hindkowans that I've found. The tiny group in Kashmir is the only POSSIBLE Hindkowan group in India though. Joshua Project is simply not a reliable source given the lack of sources. We can stick with the 600 figure, but the link to Hinduism is not there at this time. Tombseye 06:46, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Linking them to both Indo-Aryan and Iranian peoples might be a viable solution actually. It is more accurate though to link them to REGIONAL IndoAryans and Iranians rather than just in-general. Tombseye 06:48, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Sorry about that, I didn't click on the groups to find out more about their primary language. Thanks for the corrections. With regards, AnupamTalk 07:18, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
You'll find this interesting. I've been reading a few academic journals on Hindko (one of the benefits of being in grad school) and I found a few things, but nothing substantive. Apparently, there is a tiny Christian and "other" group of minorities who are Hindko speakers, BUT there is no clarity as to whether it is Western Punjabi or Hindko as the articles refer to Lahnda dialects and their variations from west to east and aren't specific. There might be a Hindu minority, but there is no clarity on that in the journals as they themselves aren't sure it seems. Generally, the Hindus in the region are Punjabi-speaking and number in the hundreds or maybe more that we don't know of. There is nothing on Hindkowan Hindus, but apparently this journal I read claims that one of Bollywood's (again Bollywood) major actors is from Peshawar (someone named Prithviraj Kapoor) so there might be a tiny Hindkowan Hindu group, but there is no specification if this family is Hindkowan or Western Punjabi. It's very confusing and not at all clear as there is only scant research on this group because it's a very small group and it is increasingly being absorbed by the larger Pashtun and Punjabi groups around them. Now we know that there are Punjabi Muslims in India and some of them came from what is today Pakistan (or moved around as you said during the British period), but there is no census info. on Hindko-speakers. The group probably numbers in the 1000s in India (maybe more), but there is no way to tell at this time. If you can look up some info. on the Indian census maybe there is something there, BUT given the huge size of the country I don't know if such a small group really registers. At the very least we could add Dilip Kumar and Shah Rukh Khan and their relatives I guess. ;) Tombseye 07:31, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
That does sound interesting. Do you think it would be beneficial to include the Christian minority in the infobox? I have actually read of Prithviraj Kapoor, the Indian actor. According to the article I read, the family spoke Pashto. I also doubt that I would be able to find any information on the Hindkowans at the Census of India as it does not recognize racial or ethnic groups although it does include a list of Scheduled Castes and Tribes. However, Pathans were in the list of Forward Castes, some of which may be Hindkowans. We'll add Dikip Kumar and Shah Rukh Khan eventually. I'm sure there will eventually be a high demand for it. ;) With regards, AnupamTalk 19:53, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hindkowans who are not Muslim

This is a very specific group that is different from western Punjabis who were sometimes Hindu and Sikh. Specifically, the Hindkowans link themselves to the Pashtuns culturally (often practicing Pashtunwali), whereas others don't. Cultural and linguistic specifity requires clarification as Hindu Pathan is a misnomer as it is most likely a geographic term like Afghan Hindu or Afghan Sikh and is not an ethno-lingusitic appellation. The articles I've read simply note that the Hindkowans are Muslim so we can't wish them to be linked to the Hindus of the western Punjabi variant. Until we have a specific reference to Hindko speakers including a minority of non-Muslims, they are basically identical CULTURALLY to the Pashtuns, but linguistically divergent. I don't doubt that some Hindus and others spoke Pashto or Hindko as 2nd languages given their geographic locale, but as their mother tongue and identification within the Hindkowan community? That requires certain evidence. Tombseye 23:40, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, here is a perfect example of why some might confuse the Hindkowans with other groups: Ethnologue West Lahnda]. Note that the groups Mirpuri Punjabi and Sereiki etc. which include Hindus and Christians, while Hindko does not. This group that lives in close proximity to the Pashtuns is Muslim, whereas the other religious communities appear to have comprises linguistically related groups who spanned the area. Tombseye 00:48, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello Tombseye. Thanks for your comments. If you would have read the reference (which comes right from Pakistan) carefully, you would have noted that it mentions that Kapoor's mother tongue was Hindko:
“ Yaqoob said the Kapoor’s love for Peshawar and Hindko language could be seen from the fact that Shami Kapoor and Dilip Kumar, another Peshawar resident, co-starred in a film and spoke Hindko in a Hindi film. ”

When India was partitioned, many Hindu Pathans left their homes and moved to the Republic of India. This is similar to the situation of other ethnic groups such as the Sindhis. From the same reference:

“ "That time was of great love and there was no religious hatred between the Hindus and Muslims and there were no restrictions on children of different religions to enter the houses of each other,” he said. Mr Wahid said people of the area were saddened when the Kapoor family and other Hindus left Peshawar after partition. ”

Prior to that time period in India, the farther north you went, the greater the concentration of Muslims; the father south you went, the greater the concentration of Hindus. However, there were still people of the other religion on both sides. See the map to the right which illustrates this phenomenon. Along with this concept, the other reference points out the there were both Hindu and Muslim Pashtuns who came from Afghanistan to Peshawar:

“ Peshawar city, in the northern Frontier Province of India, was a cantonment area which housed the British army. It abounded with a happy mixture of Hindu and Muslim Pathans who had migrated from Kabul, Capitol of the neighborly State of Afghanistan. ”

In other words, they were not North Indians just living in the area, they were authentic Pathans and Punjabi Pathans (Hindkowans). Until we have a reference that says the term Hindu Pathan is a misonomer, the current references will do per WP:V. In addition, I have added several other references which should not be removed to the other Muslims Punjabi Pathans such as this one, which shows that Khan's family is from Peshawar, the city from where Punjabi Pathans hail. In fact, Hindko is sometimes called Peshawari because of this. I hope this clears everything up. Thanks so much for your concern and thoughtful discussion! I really do appreciate it. With regards, AnupamTalk 03:12, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm still not sure whether they constitute Hindkowans as I now realize the group in question. You see, in India, the misapplied term "Pathan" is incorrectly used towards people from a particular geographic region rather than regarding Pashtuns. There are no Hindu Pashtuns as that group has a pagan past (like their immediate neighbors) and being a Pashtun and a Muslim has long since been established (like the Armenian idenification with Christianity that excludes Islamic adherence), whereas the Hindkowans were probably Buddhist and Hindu prior to their conversion to Islam and assimilation and influence by the Pashtuns. The western dialects of Punjabis merge into Hindko to the point that it becomes indecipherable as well. In addition, the Hindkowans are specific group that identifies with Pashtunwali, something the Hindus of Peshawar would not as it is synonymous with Islam. There are, for example, Hindus in Afghanistan who are generally labelled "Jats" who also speak Pashto and Dari. Similarly, this group in Peshawar would no doubt know Hindko and Pashto, but not as mother tongues, but rather the languages of the region they live in. I have a strong suspicion that this group is specifically NOT Hindkowan but rather Western Punjabi because they don't adhere to the Pashtunwali way of life and thus would never be regarded as "Pathans" by either the Pashtuns or Hindkowans (who are transitional themselves). The other groups like Sereikis and Mirpuris are the group that the Kapoors most likely derive from as they are found in urban areas, once as far west as Peshawar and possibly in Afghanistan at one point. I believe this all goes into the Indian miscomprehension of Pathans as a group that is geographic rather than linguistic/cultural that creates the confusion. In fact, the term Hindu Pathan is a misnomer as it is a term that would only be used by Indians and never by the Pashtuns or Muslim Hindkowans themselves given their exclusive nature. Further evidence of this confusion stems from the Indian usage of Pathan as a reference to all Afghans, a huge lapse that shows a disconnect due to geographic distance and a lack of regular communication and linkages to the Afghan experience and social landscape. I won't argue the point further as I can't research this further at this time given my other commitments, BUT a major caveat must be that if there is a Hindu minority it is most likely a very tiny one. Also, the references are to the Kapoor family's love of Hindko, but not their identification with it as a mother tongue and nor to any sizeable Hindu minority amongst the Hindkowans. Tombseye 04:56, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your comments, though I would have to disagree with some of them. If Kapoor was a Punjabi, then he would be referred as such, especially in a pre-partition India with a wide array of ethnic groups. Had he not been a Punjabi Pathan, he would have spoken Punjabi, not Hindko. Similarly, Punjabis residing in Jammu and Kashmir don't speak Dogri, but Punjabi as their mother tongue and are hence, not considered Dogras. Kapoor's own family site says that his family was Pathan. Your comment above stated that Punjabi Pathans practiced Dharmic religions prior to their conversion to Islam. We have to keep in mind that even if most of them converted to Islam, there would have probably been a small minority that retained their religion, Hinduism (or Buddhism). Also, in a religiously diverse Peshawar, I'm not sure that the Pakhtunwali way of life would have been a determining factor if one was a Punjabi Pathan or not. Since Pakhtunkhwa was considered a part of North West India, the term Pathan was used to refer to the ethnic native to that region - the Pathan (Pashtun). During the British Raj, the term was more readily accepted. Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan and other Indian Pathans used the term themselves. The reference actually does use the term Hindu and Muslim Pathans. Regardless, it is a topic that needs more research. By the way, I have found two sources that indicate a Christian minority among the Punjabi Pathan that I will add shortly. Thanks again for discussing the issue. With regards, AnupamTalk 02:06, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
It's circumstantial as they claim to have a great love of Hindko, but regardless the Kapoors could the exception to the rule and I highly doubt Hindu Hindkowans are more than few hundred if even that many, given the many surveys done of the Hindkowans that show that they are largely a fusion Punjabi and Pashtun elements that are part of a transitional group that fades from the Northwest Punjabi towards the Iranic Pashtuns. As for the reference of Pathan, it's an Indian usage as Pakhtunkhwa was actually synonymous with Afghanistan NOT India. The Indian perception of what is Indian tends to wrongly reflect British India and not what was there before the British came, i.e. Afghanistan and Iran in western Pakistan. Also, the usage of Pathan arose during the Islamic period and is a Hindi-Urdu variant and has no ancient precedent. This can be confirmed from the references at Pashtuns as I've spent years studying this group. Pakhtunwali IS how Pashtuns define themselves. In fact, the Pashtuns were not Buddhist or Hindu or Zoroastrian (and if they were it, they were tiny groups) but rather Pagan as their neighbors were pagan until recently AND Pashtunwali is a clear legacy of their pagan past. Ghaffar Khan was speaking to a certain audience and he was not an expert on the Pashtuns (being part of an ethnic group doesn't make one an expert), but rather a politician and activist and an admirable one given his adoption of Gandhi's non-violent ways (unusual for many Pashtuns of that time) and nor is he an indicator of all Pashtuns at any rate. I suppose there might be a small Christian minority as well, but I believe the blurring lines between Punjabi and Hindko make this all confusing as the Hindkowans are, from my own experience and interaction, practioners of Pashtunwali and do not regard non-Muslims as Hindkowan Pathans (or simply Pathans as they use the term). Thus, these other groups would be considered western Punjabis and NOT Pathans, either by the Pashtuns or Hindkowans. Tombseye 14:34, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
If the Kapoor family was truly Punjabi, then the Indian media would have referred to him as such as almost all Indians are familiar with the Punjabi culture. However, all the sources I have gathered use the term Pathan, which refers to the inhabitants of Pakhtunkhwa, the Hindkowans and Pashtuns. No references mention that he spoke Punjabi nor that he was one. However, the references that I have provided do say that he spoke Hindko and was from Peshawar, which has a large concentration of Hindkowans. In addition, most Pashtuns (practitioners of Pashtunwali), do not regard Hindkowans as Pashtuns, but as a separate ethnic group of Indic origin. If Hindkowans did not regard Hindus as part of their ethnic group, then they would have not made a statement like this:
“ ...people of the area were saddened when the Kapoor family and other Hindus left Peshawar after partition. ”
In my opinion, ethnicity is determined by genetics, not by the opinions of others. I hope this helps. Thanks, AnupamTalk 22:12, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but opinions are not what we go by. Reference books make it clear that Pashtuns, specifically are only Muslim. The Hindkowans may be another matter as they are NOT Pashtuns, but a transitional group, Punjabi Pathans, who are overlap with some being closer to the Pashtuns and others closer to the Punjabis. As for genetic variability, that is one part of the picture, but not the entire one. The Indian media, like most Indians views things from their own perspective and not academic ones. Thus, India for them extends much further outward simply due to nationalism rather than historical evidence. Hinduism is often focal point even though the Pashtuns were not Hindus, although some Hindkowans may have been, but rather pagan as the Pashtuns were rural and lived next to their pagan neighbors. There is no linguistic or religious link thusly and they are an Iranian people. In addition, it is possible that some Hindkowans view things differently, but they are NOT Pashtuns and thus Hindus are not Pashtuns. This is not my view, but that of academia. India ends at the Attock bridge where Afghanistan begins in this regard. The Hindkowans and other small groups of partial Indo-Aryan LINGUISTIC origin are found as far north as Central Asia and it is conceivable that some may be regarded as of a local ethnicity, but I don't know. this is original research regardless. Hindus who left Peshawar are not necessarily Pashtuns just because they lived there. Rather, they might be regarded as Hindkowans, if they are indeed Hindko speakers. Regardless, this group is so small as to be virtually inconsequential to the article other than receiving its small mention. It's like referring to the small group of Hari Krishnas in the US as if they are in some way an important segment of the population when their neighbors make it clear that this is not the case. Tombseye 19:53, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left here. Ling.Nut 23:00, 18 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Shah Rukh Khan

I've removed him from the notable people section. Here are some pretty good reasons why:

1. The article on Shah Rukh Khan refers to him as being Pashto. 2. They use the same citations for this that this page used to prove him Hindkowan. 3. But those pages mention him being Pashto, they do not mention him being Hindkowan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dalmatianfan52 (talk • contribs) 09:42, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I've removed his son Aryan Khan, as well as Dilip Kumar. Sharukh Khan and Dilip Kumar were both born in Peshawar and that city is about 99.9% ethnic Pashtuns. According to the sources, they all mention the word "Pathan", which is a name used for Pashtuns in Pakistan and India. Peshawar is not a Hindkowan city for us to assume that these people are Hindkowans. The Hindkowans live in Abbottabad and nearby places. Their territory is located between Pashtuns, Punjabis and Kashmiris. There is a Hindkowan editor here trying to make Dilip Kumar, Shah Rukh Khan and his son Aryan Khan as being Hindkowans. We need to see sources that say they are "Hindkowans" but for now they are not. So... we have to assume these celebrities are ethnic Pashtuns because Peshawar is Pashtun city.--119.30.66.179 (talk) 12:13, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] HAZARAWAL NOT HINDKOWAN

I suggest that the name of this article should be changed to Hindko language or just hindko. As i have seen no one calling themselves hindkowan, specially in Hazara, which has majority hindko speaking people. The article righfully mentions that the people in Hazara division do not associate themselves with the language but with their tribe names, unlike pushtun people, who refer to each other as pushtuns and not by their different tribe names. People of Hazara division when talk of each other belonging from Hazara divdision, call each other Hazarawal. Maybe hindkowan is a term used in pushtu, if this is the case, it must be mentioned in the article.Wikitanoli (talk) 15:07, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

The article also states Hinkowans or Punjabi Pathans, this is another mis conception. The pathans are a pushtu speaking people of the NWFP and parts of Afghnistan, a Punjabi is anyone from the region of punjab. So how can you term people who speak in hindko and are not in Punjab, as Punjabi Pathans, this sounds absurd. This must be removed. The link which leads to this assumption is from some 'jew' or 'christian' evangalist site, I believe this is not a notable reference. The majority of hindko speakers living in Battagram, Abbottabad, Mansehra and Haripur do not refer do themselves as Punjabi Pathans or even Pathans for that matter. The Tanolis which are the largest tribe in Hazara have a history of their own, likewise Syeds who are in large numbers in Hazara are certainly not Pathans, the Gujjars only speak in hindko to communicate with other Hazarawals and have their own language, the Awans, Ghakars, Karlals are certainly not Pathan. Tribes like Swatis who claim to be Pathans are not sure of their history, as they have been mentioned by many writers and researches to be people of indian origin. The history of jaduns being Pathan is also not certain. The name Punjabi Pathan can however be asociated to tribes like the Niazis who live in Mianwali but not to Hazarawal tribes.Wikitanoli (talk) 15:38, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Another thing i found to be absurd is the list of notable hindko speaking people, which has only a few actors on it and does not mention the former hindko speaking President of Pakistan, former Chief Ministers, Ministers, Army Generals, Sport personalities and many other notable people of Hazara and other hindko speaking people of Pakistan.Wikitanoli (talk) 02:30, 16 May 2008 (UTC)