Talk:Hillsborough Disaster/Archive 1

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Contents

Trevor Hicks

This article mentions trevor hicks, but fails to say who he is! Can someone add a line?

The Sun boycott

I saw in the edits that "The Sun newspaper - Removed unsubstianted claim of loss of earnings of The Sun". Thought I'd check on this and in an article in the 20th March, 2003 edition of the Press Gazette (the "bible" of the UK newspaper industry) the following appeared:

"The Sun is still struggling with the legacy of Hillsborough, 14 years after the most disastrous publishing decision in the newspaper’s history, the National Readership Survey’s figures suggest. In North West England, The Sun is a poor second to the Daily Mirror.

It has been estimated that the boycott has cost News International £125 million in revenue and half a billion in sales and the newspaper is acutely aware of this:

"Ian Clarke, advertising director at The Sun, admitted this week: 'We know it was a mistake .... but every year it [the boycott] softens slightly as a younger audience comes through."

Might be worth adding?

The accusations of lies and smears against the Sun may well be true but is it impartial or relevant?

Trewornan

It's absolutely relevant. The resentment that this supposed news journal generated with its callous and insensitive comments is incalculable. Lee M 02:46, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)
May they rest in peace

Yes, may all the people who tragically lost their lives rest in peace. But this tribute is not suitable to be put into an encyclopedia article. --Lorenzarius 18:09 Feb 2, 2003 (UTC)

A large amount of (admittedly POV) information added by IP: 194.205.123.7 was deleted without discussion by User:Fennec. The reasons for this deletion should have been discussed here. Some of it could have been utilised. Mintguy (T) 17:25, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

What does it mean by, "... caused a crush"? Did the building collapse? Did they jump on and kill 90-odd people? ugen64 21:26, Apr 15, 2004 (UTC)

It means that people were crushed against each other and the barriers as more and more people piled into an area not sufficiently large to hold them. I agree it needs rewording. In fact just re-reading the article there are a lot of things that need to be explained. Some years prior to the incident the stadium has been fitted with a tall security barriers at the front of terraces just infront of the pitch in order to prevent pitch invasions and other acts of hooliganism. Football in England had been plagued by hooliganism for many years and a number of clubs had installed these barriers. The victims of this distaster were pushed up against these barriers as more and more people were funneled into this section of the ground. For the people at the front of the crowd there was nowhere to go to escape being crushed by those behind. Mintguy (T)
See also the Guardian's comment on it, from the Monday after the disaster. Arwel 12:02, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I've added quite a bit to make the details clearer and explain how the crush occured. I've also added some references to the accusations of crowd misbehaviour which I realise are sensitive but felt should be included. I still feel that the section on the sun should (at least) be abridged.

Reworking

I think the article needs a bit more work. The opening paragraph begins "Football been been plagued by hooliganism ..." immediately gives rise to the thought that hooliganism directly caused the tragedy, rather than hooliganism indirectly causing the physical environment in which the tragedy happened. Jooler

Why is the first paragraph in the past tense? IE: "Football had been plagued by hooliganism for year", "terraces were cheaper standing areas without seats".

I'm no expert, but as far as I know hooliganism is still a large problem and they still have terraces don't they?

Hooliganism was a problem for over 10 years before Hillsborough, but it is not now a problem within UK stadia (though as we've seen this week, it still is in Italy). And no, there are no terraces at English League grounds since soon after the Taylor Report. -- Arwel 19:58, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hmm, I was thinking of rugby grounds.
Well, the article's not talking about rugby grounds - all the national stadia at any rate are all seater, and when on earth was there a case of crowd violence at a rugby match (as opposed to punch-ups between players?). -- Arwel 18:49, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I've seen the occasional loose fist between supporters at rugby matches - but only at a very local level (I'm thinking of two small Cornish towns in particular, I'd better not name them).Trewornan
As an Italian myself, I think it's rather unfair to single out Italy (or any other country for that matter) that it still has hooliganism. ALL countries in a variety of sports still have to deal with hooliganism and from a number of matches I've seen this year, it still exists in the English league as well. While I certainly agree that Holliganism is not as intense as it has been in years past, to single out a certain country as a basin for Hooliganism and to imply that another is free of it is very unfair in my opinion.--Cini Duel 13:45, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
Arwel was refering to a specific spate of hooliganism at Italian league matches in April this year. Please look at the date of messages that you are replying to. Pcb21 Pete 00:41, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Indeed, that comment was written immediately after the AC Milan - Inter Champions' League match, which was abandoned because of hooliganism, also not forgetting that AS Roma are playing this season's European home matches in an empty stadium because of the incident last year when a referee was injured. -- Arwel (talk) 02:18, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

The overview tells us that 7,000,000 fans were injured. Seven million is about a tenth of the UK population. It might be just a tad too high. This site (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/28/newsid_2531000/2531015.stm) put the figure at 170 which is inherently more sane. I doubt that 7 million people could fit into any football stadium let alone Sheffield Wednesday's terraces. Does anyone have a source on this 7,000,000 figure? Empty Book 17:33, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Separate page for connection with sun newspaper?

It was odd to come here looking for information on the Hillsborough disaster to find that more than half of the article is about an article printed by the Sun newspaper. The Sun had no part in the disaster itself, and the disaster of its article is surely secondary. 213.48.36.65 21:41, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

We still haven't got the balance right just yet I agree, but it has been improving. I am sure a spin-off article would be that great. Much better to continue to expand the main body more - and perhaps tighten the Sun section a little? Pcb21 Pete 22:47, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Live tv?

Is the comment "Graphic footage of the disaster was available because the match was being recorded for later broadcast " true? IIRC, the match was broadcast live - ISTR watching the game, and the unfolding events. Guinness

IIRC the game was being recorded for Match of the Day to be shown later that day; but as the tragic events began to unfold, the pictures were broadcast live. I know for certain that this happend with the Bradford City disaster, and I'm pretty sure it happend here too. Jooler 13:54, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, I wouldn't argue with you, 'cus my own memory is a bit flakey, but when was the last time a Cup semi-final wasn't shown live on TV? I do however vaguely recall the commentator saying something along the lines like "there appears to be some sort of commotion at one end of the pitch." Guinness 16:06, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
The Grandstand clip in McGovern's Hillsborough drama shows them only going to the ground once they get news of the problems. "Just before we go to the snooker, I'm going to lead you to Gerald Sinstadt [sp?] at Hillsborough...Gerald what's happening?") The next shot is a static 'scoreline' graphic -- then it cuts to a long shot of the stand chaos. The JPS 16:43, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
but when was the last time a Cup semi-final wasn't shown live on TV - um.. probably sometime shortly after 1988. It was Sky TV that introduced the concept of showing live football matches for games other than the FA Cup or League Cup Finals, Charity Shield matches or major Internationals. Jooler 23:16, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Not true - both the BBC and ITV showed live first division games at various times during the 80s - alternating between Friday evenings and Sunday afternoons. And the FIRST time that FA cup semi finals were shown live on TV was in 1990 - Man Utd v Oldham and Liverpool v Crystal Palace.68.193.148.80 00:20, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
In line with their regulatory codes, the broadcasters did not show identifiable individuals involved in acute suffering, but did show a long shot of the commotion and gfootage of the reactions of those not directly involved in the disaster. see the judgment of the House of Lords in Alcock v Chief Constable of South Yorkshire Police, that's where I found this. Rainbowfanclub 14:37, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Police statements altered

The Sunday Telegraph revealed that police statements were altered significantly prior to submission to the inquiry. I wonder if this is worth a mention here. Eiler7 11:13, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

The Spectator editorial

I suggest that this article could do with an addition referring to The Spectator's controversial editorial that described Liverpool as "wallowing in victim status" after the murder in Iraq of Liverpudlian hostage Ken Bigley: the editorial also blamed drunken Liverpool fans for contributing to the Hillsborough disaster (see [1]). 155.232.250.19 15:31, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

ok, but maybe then you should also mention other newspapers like The Observer for writing "..accords perfectly with the Liverpudlianisation of Britain... no-holds-barred self-pity dressed as grief, self-congratulatory sentimentalism, an affirmation of itself through the appropriation of cosmetic Celtism". 5 October 1997 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gomez2002 (talk • contribs) 16:38, 9 October 2006

Delaying kick-offs

One of the outcomes of the reports into the disaster was that kick-offs are delayed if fans are late arriving at the ground. Not sure if this should be included (or where).

Wasn't that in the Taylor report? If so it would be better to add it there. Dan1980 14:08, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

New Images

Hi all, I just uploaded some new photos that are relevant to this article,
Image:The kop1989.jpg Image:Shankly gates1989.jpg
They were taken after the Hillsborough Memorial at Anfield in 1989, and although perhaps not the greatest quality, I think they show a lot of the emotion surrounding the tragedy. Seeing as I've never edited this page, and there's already a fair few photos here, I thought it best to display them here first so others can voice their opinions, cheers, aLii 00:53, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Mirror wrote: Shocking news yesterday, when a Liverpool Fc Vs Nottingham Forest Fc game turned into the worst disaster. Outside of the Leaping stadium, allocated to the Liverpool fans, many fans was getting frustrated that the game had already started which cause 95 fans to death and many more hurt. Pc Marshal had this to say, ‘The fans were getting out of order we was left with no other choice but to open the gates. The game had just kicked of as we was doing so, which made the fans within the ground to cheer. Many other fans started to panic thinking that someone had scored, so they started to push through.’ Within the stadium ground there was high steel fencing, which was the main problem why so many fans died. Being pushed up to the high steel fencing, causing suffocation to happen. An unnamed eye witness, cried out these words, ‘I tried to reach down to help them out. Many of us did, but we wasn’t strong enough. Someone next to me, tried to pull a man up, but instead he feel to his death.’ She also had this to say, ‘

Heysel Link

Removed it - don't feel it's connected with Hillsborough - yes it involves Liverpool too, but very different circumstances led to the disaster in both cases. Porterjoh 17:40, 15 January 2007 (UTC)