Talk:Hilaire Belloc

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To anon editor: please try to stay within the bounds of the NPOV style.

Charles Matthews 22:47, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

To User:Polycarp: please note the above comment. This article, like any other at WP, is meant to be for information, not advocacy. I am going to change back parts of it.

Charles Matthews 09:59, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Comment on the politics - it would be good to support this with a specific quote. He was pro-Mussolini, and certainly very much a supporter of the Nationalist side in the Spanish Civil War. I don't want to write anything facile about this on the page. I believe his position in the early 1920s was sort of monarchist. I also believe that while his politics were fairly similar to the French style of Maurras, he was not actually in agreement with Maurras, whom he found too godless. Therefore, while he was a long way to the authoritarian right, there are also some nuances that should be brought out.

Charles Matthews 07:51, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] "Talking of Dick Whittington" quote

I've reverted Charles Matthews's insertion of a quote from the above mentioned work, as it is not clear if this was an actual interview or a fictionalized conversation. The phrase "Belloc is made to say..." implies that the authors are putting words in Belloc's mouth, while "A sample of Belloc's conversation is reported..." implies that this is what he actually said.

Charles, if "Talking of Dick Whittington" is non-fiction and this is what Belloc actually said during an actual interview, please make that clear. (For example, "Belloc said in an interview with Hugh Kingsmill (reported in Talking of Dick Whittington (1947) by Kingsmill and Hesketh Pearson), ...") Also, it would be helpful to understanding Belloc's thought if the the quote were longer, rather than simply ending with "The Crucifixion." Thanks. JHCC (talk) 14:22, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, talking first and reverting later could be better. On p.11 of the book, Hesketh Pearson says 'So far as our own conversations are concerned, they are sufficiently faithful reports of our own conversations'; and Kingsmill says to Graham (Greene): 'In short, Graham, everything is factual ...'. It was a three-way conversation (Belloc-Hesketh-Kingsmill) from p.212 that I was sampling - they visited Belloc and talked. It's non-fiction.
Continuation is Kingsmill: I see; Pearson: You must have influenced G.K.C. a lot?; and on about Chesterton. Belloc says he is 76, so the interview would have taken place 1946/7. The book appeared 1947. But to call it an 'interview' when it is an example of Belloc's normal conversation (reconstructed by two witnesses) is to give it a wrong status. Charles Matthews 15:19, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
In other words, the article should say, "Belloc said in an conversation with Hugh Kingsmill and Hesketh Pearson, [insert quote here] (reported in Kingsmill and Pearson, Talking of Dick Whittington (1947))" I'll make it so.
Pity that there's no further elaboration from Belloc, but that's life, I guess.
BTW, the revert was just to avoid confusion while this got sorted. No offense implied, and I hope none taken. JHCC (talk) 15:53, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
You had a legitimate point to make. Charles Matthews 17:11, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
First time for everything. JHCC (talk) 17:52, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-Semitism charge

Since it appears that the section on this is going to be edited, from a POV stance, I'd just like to point this out: at this rate, the article is going to be dominated by the one issue. Belloc wrote 150 books. Trying simply to exonerate him isn't leading to a focus on those. Charles Matthews 06:29, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

On that, I don't want to cut the Michael Coren quote, since people still speak up for Belloc; but that whole section is copyvio from here: [1]. Including the incomplete reference to the Coren book. This was shameless anon editing from September. Charles Matthews 06:35, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Unless someone can point out to me the purpose behind the phrase "Cecil having died in 1918" in the following sentence, I would like to remove it. "His association with G. K. Chesterton and Cecil Chesterton is one, though inconclusive; the somewhat unworldly G. K. Chesterton expressed views (for example in The New Jerusalem, 1920, see citation in the Chesterton article) about the separateness of Jews by culture and religion which must have been offensive to some, Cecil having died in 1918." Zerobot 12:30, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

The whole bit probably needs to be reconsidered; it was written before the issue was really addressed at all in the Chesterton article. Charles Matthews 16:33, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Hi everyone, I agree with most of what was said but just have a few thoughts:
1. It's off balance that Anti-semitism is 1/3 of the article.
2. I think a interpetations of anti-semitism nowadays are far different than they were 80 years ago -ie we have a hyper-sensitive society now that is on the lookout for this bogeyman everywhere. Anti-semitism is detestable, but we know that Belloc detested anti-Semites and excluded them from his circle of friends. Thus any views regarding Jews I think were theological and transcendental and had nothing to do with garden variety anti-semitism.
3. A few of these facts, to be fair to this person, should be in the article. Such as
a) he did interntionally exclude from his life bona fide anti-semites and rigorously philosophically disagreed with them.
b) Jews themselves cite to his work as an example of a gentile historian who saw the inner workings of anti-semitism, documented and explained the "tragic cycle." Can anyone honestly tell me they've read "The Jews"? Did you find it anti-semitic? I read it and didn't find any and I am Jewish! Indeed, he documents a cycle and does it with sympathy, not anti-semitism. For that reason, I would kindly like to add back:
"Far from anti-semitic, the work sympathetically documents the history of Jewish persecution and has even been cited positively by Jewish historians who acknowledge Belloc's accomplishment is identifying a cycle of persecution and coining the phrase 'The Tragic Cycle' of anti-semitism."
I think its fair expecially since this article has quotes out of context "such as "the crucificion" (as someone rightfully pointed out" and "Cecil dying in 1918"????
I think when people like Seigenthaler say Wikipedia is "biased, unscholarly etc." having articles that dedicate 1/3 or 1/4 to anti-semitism makes their case. What also makes their case is purposefully excluding any info that would exonerate or at least shed balancing light on a person like Belloc. You can remove my edit if you like, but I think it's a move of stubbornness, not scholarship if you do. Thanks. -Anon. (comment added 17:29, 12 December 2005 UTC))
You should understand that the section on anti-Semitism grows for a reason: every time we get anonymous edits that attempt to slant away from NPOV by dismissing the whole business, the only thing to do is to produce a fuller, sourced discussion. There are plenty of such sources. In order to be fair, both sides of the argument get stated at greater length. There is no way out. If only people would not simply come here to do that. I'm rather more interested in other aspects of his writing. The only way that the article can retain balance is for other sections to be expanded also. Charles Matthews 19:16, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, I see someone thinks The Jews is not an anti-Semitic book, which is ludicrous. The whole 1922 text is due to be posted by Project Gutenberg, and when that happens we shall be able to see better. Of course Belloc was neither a fool, nor (at a personal level) a knave, but he had an anti-Semitic bee in his bonnet. He was trying to deal with it, with partial success. Anyone who thinks we should all focus on this one book out of his 150 does Belloc no favours at all.Charles Matthews 19:22, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I think it fair to Belloc to include anti-semitic quotes of which he is accused. Much of this discussion is to the effect that somebody knows somebody who knows somebody who thought he was anti-semitic. Direct quotes from Belloc, if they exist, are in order. --Dennis Larkin

It is a common fallacy of modern thought to hold historical figures up to what we feel today is the politically correct ideal. Belloc lived in a time when few were very open-minded about the Jews, and Belloc was no more anti-Semitic then the next Edwardian British man; in his prologue to the anthology of Belloc short stories The Eyewitness, editor Matthew Anger even posits that Belloc was less anti-Semitic than the next Edwardian British man. Belloc may not have been right in his ideas about the Jews, but until fairly recently, these ideas were common indoctrinated dogma in society (remember Shakespeare's portrayal of Shylock). It is highly unfair to expect Belloc to be so forward thinking as to ignore thousands of years of common beliefs. JNF Tveit 05:22, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I think anyone who tries to maintain that Belloc was "less anti-Semitic than the next Edwardian man" would do well to read Belloc's vitriolic pamphlet "The Jews" before he repeats the claim.Ojevindlang 15:57, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Read the comments above by Anon. Also, one must remember hermeneutics when reading a text such as this. JNF Tveit 17:59, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

If by Anon you mean the guy who claims to be Jewish and says he did not think Belloc's book The Jews anti-Semitic, I am unconvinced by the former claim and unimpressed by the later. I *have* read the book, and it is anti-Semitic through and through. No talk about "hermeneutics" can change that.Ojevindlang 23:44, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Writing

Can we think of a more NPOV way of saying "Roald Dahl is a follower at an unsafe distance."? Zerobot 13:27, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Epitaph on the Politician

I feel that the following deserves a mention.

Here richly, with ridiculous display,
the Politician's corpse was laid away. 
While all of his acquaintance sneered and slanged
I wept: for I had longed to see him hanged.

[edit] 9/11

If you bring 9/11 into a page like this, you need absolutely cast-iron references to show what you are asserting. Charles Matthews 22:22, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Further, if there is really a connection between Belloc and ecumenical efforts by Catholics, involving the Muslim American Society as the external link suggests, this needs to be established. Tenuous connections and assertions of relevance are not enough, if that material is to be kept on this page. Charles Matthews 12:04, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Material moved out of article

These three portions await proper substantiation by references. Charles Matthews 10:46, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

It has been seen as based on the social teaching of the Roman Catholic Church and the encyclical Rerum Novarum by Pope Leo XIII [citation needed].
Enthusiastic reactions from Protestants and paleoconservatives may stem from hostility to Islam, especially in the aftermath of September 11, rather than endorsement of Belloc's thoroughly Catholic worldview.
In later generations, proponents of Catholic-Mulsim Dialogue would bring up many of the same points, but in a different context - i.e., regarding Islam as a separate religion having many differences but also a lot of similarities with Catholic Chrisitinaity, enabling Catholics and Muslims to stand together on key issues such as abortion, preserving the institution of marriage and family values (see [2]).

[edit] 'May all my enemies go to Hell'

As far as I know, this came from a rhyme Belloc composed in his fiction work The Four Men, and I've never heard of it used in a Christmas card. What is the source for this information? JNF Tveit 23:20, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

This rhyme appears in Belloc's The Four Men, as one of the verses of a song one of the title characters, The Sailor, sings. It should be noted that the other characters regard the verse as fairly gauche and ill-conceived, and if the verse is taken out of this context it may be misunderstood. It should also be noted that these four characters supposedly represent four different facets of Belloc's own character; so while a part of Belloc may have agreed with this verse, other parts of him may have disagreed and checked the more offensive part. This is all inconsequential, however, if someone can cite a source which proves Belloc used the verse in a Christmas card. The verse in its entirety is as follows:

'May all good fellows that here agree
Drink Audit Ale in heaven with me,
And may all my enemies go to hell!
Noel! Noel! Noel! Noel!
May all my enemies go to hell!
Noel! Noel!' JNF Tveit 23:41, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


Since this material still goes unattested, and since the current version may be unjustly defamatory against Belloc's character, I am going to change it, pending attestation. JNF Tveit 20:27, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Preface to Cruise of the Nona

The article states that his friend Lord Stanley wrote a preface for his book the Cruise of the Nona and links to Arthur Stanley. Although the book was originally published in 1925 the edition with the preface by Lord Stanley was published in 1956 [3] after Belloc's death. The preface itself refers to Belloc in the past tense so it was presumably written after his death specifically for inclusion with the new edition. Although a near contemporary of Belloc, Arthur Stanley died in 1931 so it could not have been him that wrote the preface. It would have been the next Lord Stanley, Arthur Stanley's son Edward Stanley. --DavidCane 20:01, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-Semiticism (again)

As a casual reader of the article (which is generally quite informative), I found the the sub-section on his anti-Semiticism rather a let-down, for this reason: I was left wondering what exactly his views were. Apparently he was not an anti_Semite in the sense of disliking individual jews. So in what sense is this accusation meant? Perhaps he was actually anti-Zionist? Anyway, I'd like someone with more knowledge of Belloc than I to clarify for us just what his anti-Semiticism consisted of. Thanks 202.178.112.80 05:21, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Belloc and modern academia

Is it worthwhile noting professors' hesitancy in allowing students to use him as a source, because ole B didn't cite sources? The Jackal God 19:20, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

You saying that all professors hesitate to do this, and for the reason stated? Seems like that would be hard to document. -- Rob C. alias Alarob 20:35, 8 August 2007 (UTC)