Talk:Higgs boson

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[edit] Removed

The whole subsection below is removed. Is there any particular reason to include each and every babble about serious things into their articles? IMO only important developments have to make into an encyclopedia article; e.g., if some pop-(mis)conception gained some degree of notoriety. But to include each casual reference of the term would be ridiculous. Mikkalai 22:09, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pop-culture references

In the sci-fi comedy series Lexx, one character points out that although all-out nuclear war sometimes destroys all life on planets as advanced as Earth, it is much more common for such planets to be obliterated by physicists attempting to determine the precise mass of the Higgs boson particle, since the moment the mass is known the planet will instantly be compressed to the size of a pea.

In Stanislaw Lem's Solaris, a crew of scientists find themselves beset by the inexplicable presence of other people, including absent or deceased friends and relatives, on their space station - apparently the creations of an alien phenomenon they are studying. They discover that their visitors, when killed, always return to life, even if they attempt to kill themselves; their struggle to cope with this "problem" embodies one of the important underlying themes of the story. In Steven Soderbergh's 2002 film adaptation, the script (interestingly) references Higgs: "So, if we created a negative Higgs field, and bombarded them with a stream of Higgs anti-bosons, they might disintegrate."

end of removed piece -----


I highly disagree on removal. These bits of information gives wikipedia not only its humorous quirk, but also the important distinctive that Wikipedia is an "all-subject" Encyclopedia. Since they are separated into the "Pop-culture" part, they help people to distinguish from fiction to science.

The article was well divided and balanced, and more information is not a problem.... --nihil 14:35, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Rather than have "Pop-culture references" (which seems to be used more for listing references that the subject of the article makes to pop culture), I say it should be re-added and renamed to "Higgs boson in fiction" (or "science fiction", since both examples are). Many other proven and unproven ideas, stories, theories, objects, techniques, and peoples have such sections on Wikipedia: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 These are just a bunch of randomly found pages in no particular order, showing how such a section can live in harmony and mutual benifit with a serious or unserious topic. (Hopefully this won't start a witch hunt of removing such sections!) Splarka 08:28, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In this case I agree with removal. Sci-fi movies and shows often throw scientific terms about carelessly just to tech it up a bit, but that doesn't mean they're saying anything about the actual physical phenomenon. Only when the piece of fiction deals with it explicitly, in-depth, and it's a source of common-knowledge on the subject is it important to the article, in my opinion. In other words, only when the appearances in fiction ARE the public persona of the phenomenon or effect is it important to treat those fictional references; however, in this case, I'd bet that more people have read The God Particle than have seen the shows in question. --Laura Scudder | Talk 16:16, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I disagree on several points. While some movies and shows do throw around terms for the tech effect (TNG, Dr Who), some don't as much. I agree the Solaris use was for tech effect, but the Lexx reference spanned a whole season of the show, with several mentions and implications. The Higgs Boson was said to be so elusive that most civilizations destroyed themselves trying to find it, as earth almost does in a near-future.
Once the LHC is up and running, we pretty much will have the answer. I don't think Sci-Fi like this helps educate because it isn't realistic nor even close to realistic. It might even make some ignorant people dumber. The last thing I want is for ignorant people reading the article and getting strange ideas in their heads. You have to be really careful how you present scientific information. A student once asked me what color some wavelength was and I joked plaid. She wrote that on her exam. She never got the joke. (CHF 14:13, 27 October 2005 (UTC))
You know, I think I might agree with you on that point... We don't want people who are already ignorant on these subjects to get confused between science fiction and real science. scienceman 13:25, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Also, as your your "I'd bet that more people have read The God Particle than have seen the shows in question." Solaris (2002 movie) grossed around 170 million worldwide. At a guess of about $10 average admission, that is at least 17 million (and very few repeats, who would want to see that movie more than once? ugh) and the DVD sales are pretty high too. I couldn't find any specific sales list of The God Particle by Leon Lederman, but about A Brief History of Time (Hawking): "It has sold in excess of 10 million copies; For a book to sell so many copies is almost unheard of in the history of science writing." The sales ranking at amazon.com shows TGP at #38,367 compared to ABHoT at #2,841. So I would wager that The God Particle has been read by fewer people than have seen Solaris. Not counting the addition of Lexx which has around 60+ episodes that have aired in most major markets, and the amazon sales rank of the first VHS tape of 1.0 "I Worship His Shadow" peaked at 150 (out of about 40,000). So I think it should be rephrased and readded. Splarka 21:43, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
but both references have zilch to do with the actual particle, except for the parroting of the name. So while it makes sense to link here from the movie's article for background, it makes no sense whatsoever to link to the movies from this article, because there will be no information at all related to the topic of this article. Both references have to do with 'Higgs bosons' being used to destructive effect. I don't know any weapons use for the Higgs boson has been suggested, theoretically. If there was a sci-fi reference that dealt with the actual theory, even if far-fetched, such as tweaking mass or inertia by modifying the Higgs field or something, that could be worth a link. Baad 08:46, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Actually, Lexx was a pretty smart show and the reference did subtly imply something of the nature of the Higgs boson, connecting the notions of "this is the particle that imparts mass" with "Heisenberg uncertainty says that precisely measuring mass will constrain measurement of position" (ie. have a spooky physical effect that can be fictionally exploited). Obviously it's all gross oversimplification and certainly played for laughs, but it made me interested enough to better find out what the Higgs boson was and what measuring its mass meant (granted I was already pretty interested in particle physics). I do find that pop culture sections in Wikipedia are often excessively inclusive, but I was surprised not to find the Lexx reference here. Wikipedia is about ideas, and the sometimes surprising manner in which rather abstruse ones like this can leak into lay popular culture is interesting enough that it probably deserves mention when it happens. - toh 20:52, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
I agree that the Lexx reference should be readded, at the very least. Even if it doesn't say anything about the particle, i found it quite funny and it brightened my day. --Quasar 19:01, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
You can always start an article entitled Higgs boson (pop culture). However, I agree with the opinions above: ignorance of science and math in the US is appalling, and the last thing we need are people believing that the Higgs particle is "plaid" because Lex Luthor said so. linas 19:48, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
It's a clear violation of Wiki policy to make a decision based upon how a certain audience may view content. If the content deserves a reference, it should be included in a normal manner. It's both a violation of WP:POINT and WP:NPOV to remove/move content based on how a certain audience may interpret it. -DMurphy 00:07, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
The point is that readers expect to read about the Higgs boson in the Higgs boson article. They do not expect to read about technobabble nonsense that happens to go by the same label. Hence the IMHO appropriate disambiguation between the two. Considering what the average reader would think is a key part of determining the structure of disambiguation pages. -- Xerxes 00:32, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with the characterization of the Solaris concept of a Higgs anti-boson as "technobabble," and though I agree that the Lexx reference is a bit absurd, I don't think adding it would do any harm to the article. If the issue here is the detriment to someone who reads the article's knowledge, I must say the references would do very little to deter the quality of this article. We must remember that the field of Particle Physics altogether was once considered technobabble. I think the topic of the Higgs boson is incredibly important, but the remedy is not to distinguish between humor and serious topics, but rather to just add more information. We must remember that this is a global encyclopedia, not just for the science community, and as such someone who reads the reference in Lexx or in Solaris would look to this article to explain what the Higgs boson is too, and therefore the article can be considered incomplete without those references. -DMurphy 22:00, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, the above post is absurd and just plain wrong. A discussion of Higgs on Solaris is just plain technobabble. I enjoy Lem as a funny sci-fi author but please do not confuse sci-fi with physics. It is equally insulting to claim that particle physics was once technobabble too; this demonstrates either an ignorance of history, an ignorance of physics, or outright trolling. 02:17, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand your point. Perhaps it is "technobabble" in the sense that it is not possible under the current standard model, but I am familiar with history enough to know that at one time the proton and neutron were considered fundamental particles until they were found to consist of quarks, so to say that when they were found to consist of quarks every scientist in the world accepted this theory as fact and not "technobabble" is a bit narrow-minded in my opinion. I did unfairly mix the field of sci-fi and physics in hindsight, and for that I am sorry, but to say that a Higgs anti-boson cannot exist simply because it was originally theorized in a work of science fiction is equally unfair. However, I think this discussion has resorted to trolling and the focus should return to the topic at hand - whether or not the fact should be in the article at all, and if so, in what manner. -DMurphy 22:50, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
A Higgs anti-boson can't exist as there is no such thing as an anti-boson. For example the W+ and W- could be said to be each others anti-particles, but they are still both bosons. The term boson or fermion simply refers to the spin of the particle and the particular properties resulting from this spin. Some Higgs models (e.g. MSSM) do contain more than one Higgs particle, but none use the phrase anti-boson.Jameskeates 10:55, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] the Higgs field and inertia

I assume that if interaction with the Higgs fields is instrumental in giving particles mass, then the Higgs field can be assumed to be the mediator of inertia. Unlike drag, inertia does not relate to velocity. As far as inertia is concerned, any velocity is zero; inertia relates to rate of change of velocity.

I wonder how that is accomodated in the theory of the Higgs field. Why does there appear to be no interaction with the Higgs field as long as the velocity is constant, and how does the Higgs field oppose acceleration? --Cleon Teunissen | Talk 09:03, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)


All massive particles constantly interact with the Higgs field, regardless of their velocity. Inertia doesn't relate to rate of change of velocity, that's acceleration. See http://hepwww.ph.qmw.ac.uk/epp/higgs3.html for a story/interpretation of how the Higgs mechanism gives mass.Rotiro

[edit] upper limit

what is this "theoretical upper limit" of 186 Gev? is this somehow calculated from the known particle masses? This should be carefully separated from the experimentally expected "upper limit" (expectation within 95% confidence), based on the observation of spurious events, according to one of the external links set at 251 GeV in 2004. Baad 08:42, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

the theoretical upper limit is the highest energy we expect the Higgs to find at, based on the standardmodel

More precisely, it's based on precision electroweak fits to the Standard Model, see http://lepewwg.web.cern.ch/LEPEWWG/ Note also the experimental limit is a lower limit, not upper, and is not based on observing spurious events. It's based on not finding the Higgs at those energy levels.Rotiro

Updated the upper limit (now down to 153GeV ffrom 166) to reflect the most recent work from Fermilab - perhaps a tad early, as this hasn't been published in a peer reviewed journal yet. Perhaps someone could reference it when it's reported. Ta. Routlej1 18:32, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Is it in the arXiv or posted as an official result on one FNAL's pages? I'd consider FNAL experiment papers that have been released publically in any form to be reliable sources. However, results that aren't formally blessed should probably not be used, because they are not verifiable by outsiders and might yet be revised by the experiments themselves. Remember that Wikipedia is a secondary source, not a place where new research should appear first. -- SCZenz 18:55, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
It is an approved, publicly available result. Bodhitha 18:22, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry, should have said where it came from - New Scientist. It was in an article in the news section in the 13th of January edition. 130.88.52.124 22:09, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A Few Thoughts

So, the Higg's Field is "something" that through interacting with every single particle is responsible for giving every single particles its mass. So because a particle is touching this field it has a mass. If it interacts with everything, al the time, no matter where something is or goes, it must be everywhere. Something that interacts with everything. Let me try to makes connections between this and other things that affect every single particle...the universes so-called speed limit, the speed of light. Could the Higgs Field be the Universes traffic cop? If something goes too fast for the Higgs Field does it no longer have mass and therefore have no speed limit and disappear from our universe. Are Black Holes tears in the Higgs Field.

No. And Higgs is not responsible for all mass, just the masses of fundamental particles. The mass of the proton, for example, is not due to the Higgs. Its binding energy due to the strong nuclear force. -- Xerxes 16:18, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Thinking a little too much into it... Higgs doesn't even exist. Why do you think that quantum physicists sarcastically refer to it as the "God Particle"? It's not "Because it does everything and is everywhere" it's because it's being blamed for everything that Standard Model cannot adequately explain. Have a hole in your theory? Higgs did it! 24.254.189.253 17:23, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Major edit explained

I have rewritten the whole article, mainly to achieve a more structured presentation. Most of the original information remains, with the following exceptions:

  1. The best estimate for the Higgs mass is not 91 GeV.
  2. The theoretical upper limit for the SM Higgs mass is not 186 GeV.
  3. The "experimentally expected" upper limit is not 251 GeV.
  4. The upper bound on the SM Higgs mass of 200 GeV (for the SM to be valid up to the Planck scale) was changed to 190 GeV to agree with the Particle Data Group.
  5. The sentence on Yukawa Interaction is out of place and looks like an unjustified self reference.

Thor Waldsen 19:30, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

The results of Fermilab June 2004 changed the estimates of the Higgs mass and the upper bound was changed from 219 to 251 GeV because of a new value of top quark mass. The fact of being the interaction of Higgs fields a Yukawa interaction, i.e. short-ranged is indeed of importance, although it is nothing unexpected, since only massive fields interact short-ranged.Nbez 20:36, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Higgs

I think the Higgs boson is the answer to almost all of the questions about the Universe's Dark matter, and dark energy.--216.183.184.253 01:18, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

All your base are belong to us. 204.52.215.107 13:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

It's funny that 246 is the sequence of the first 3 even numbers, which happens to be double the sequence of the first 3 prime numbers. Ringthane

I don't think that 1 is a prime number.

  • For some odd reason, they do not concider 1 to be a prime. However, I have yet to get a clear answer from any mathematician as to why it is not. They define a prime as "only evenly divisible by 1 and itself" and I'd like to see you divide 1 by anything other than 1 and itself... Granted 1 is itself, but technically meets all the qualifications. 24.254.189.253 17:16, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
This topic can be discussed on the talk page for prime numbers. However... a prime number is supposed to be a number with exactly two factors (one and itself). One has only one factor and is not prime. 69.156.31.181 00:26, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
It is not logic it's "definition war", most people define prime as can be devided only by one and itself.

and so 1:1 = 1 yet som math people say that's not fair. But who are we to define such things?

There are a lot of exmples with zero and 1 there is even i in math. So if 1 is prime it's rather up to your definition you can define yourself, as others did also. Even in Prime discusion board this is a comlpex topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.217.143.153 (talk) 11:41, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Oh BTW the nearest prime = 241
and the next = 251
in the middle of these there is 246 non prime
factored into primes 246 = 2 * 3 * 41 (or 1 * 2 * 3 * 41 ) depending on prime definition
Oh and remember 41 + 1 = 42 which was debated in the hitchhickers galaxy book as the ultimate answer.
But ehm what's the deal with 246 and higgs ?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.217.143.153 (talk • contribs)

Sorry - and I so hate to spoil y'all's fun with trivial mathematics and popular culture nonsense, but we really need to stay on topic. This is an encyclopedia, not a forum, or a "chat room", or "blog page" for airing and discussing cool things that you learned in school, or found at another web site, or read in Scientific American, or on some geekmath-ter's blog page - unless it is 100% relevant to the article. The only material that should be posted and discussed here on the talk page is that which is required to improve the article. If you find some information with useful, updated, or corrected information on Higgs Boson, then by all means post it here and we can discuss working it into the article in an appropriate way. Otherwise please feel free to take up the prime number trivia and HHGTTG stuff for discussion at an appropriate mathematics or fan forum. Thanks, and again sorry for having to spoil your fun and calling the place to order. --T-dot ( Talk/contribs ) 14:08, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merger

I really recommend a merge of the pop culture page... I realize that this has been discussed, but just because this is a scientific topic does not mean it is above the rest of the articles. If the information is important (but not large enough of a subtopic to warrant its own article), it should be included in an encyclopaedic matter in the main article. If not, it should not be on Wikipedia. There's no need to make a new article (which has all of two references and is AfD-worthy if this article didn't exist). -DMurphy 23:56, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

The main problems I see here are that:

  • The article was split without clear consensus. A rough tally of the sides of the previous debate count four in favor of re-adding the information (since it was removed outright by Mikkalai): Quasar, toh, Splarka, and nilhil, as well as a 5th unsigned comment in favor of replacement. Five were in favor of the removal: Mikkalai, Laura Scudder, CHF, linas, and Baad. If anything, this vote should indicate no consensus and the default should be to status quo (and the facts should remain, or in this case be added back to the article since the debate on the change reached no consensus), as was done in the Second Search Box poll.
  • There is no precedent (that I can find) for this type of disambiguation, which could indicate a violation of WP:POINT.

I really don't mean to wag my finger here, I am merely trying to offer some type of policy to solve this matter. -DMurphy 22:30, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

There is clear precedent in the dark matter (fiction) article, another physics topic which accrues much pop culture nonsense. On the other hand, there is the counterexample of tachyon#Tachyons in fiction, which takes up nearly half of that article. Perhaps this is an issue which should be referred to some greater policy-setting body? -- Xerxes 14:40, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Ah, I wasn't aware of that precedent. As far as a policy-setting body goes, the only one that jumps out is WP:AFD. As you probably can see I've added a vote below (since there doesn't yet seem to be a consensus), but if that vote reaches no consensus I am in favor of referring the pop culture article to AFD. -DMurphy 23:20, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I created the new article, mostly so that the information would not be deleted. I am in favor of merging. — goethean ॐ 22:33, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Creating a new article is not a valid way to bypass community consensus to delete. I don't feel strongly that the pop-sci section shouldn't be here, so I wouldn't oppose a merger, but if the consensus is that it shouldn't, your page must be deleted. -lethe talk + 05:30, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I understand that Wikipedia is not paper. But I shudder in horror to think if someone would want to expand the article Jesus in Pop culture with all novels and films in which someone said "Holy Jesus!" or "Holy Christ!". `'mikka (t) 21:55, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vote

I realize that this may be considered a violation of Not an experiment in Democracy, but there doesn't seem to be a consensus here. It seems to me that there are three clear options - delete the pop culture article, re-merge the pop culture article, or keep things the way they are now. Since the first option should be done through AfD rather than here, this vote will have two options: Merge if you are in favor of re-merging the references or Don't Merge if you are against re-merging the references. If the consensus is Merge, the references will be merged with the main article in their own sub-topic. If the consensus is Don't Merge or if the vote is No Consensus, the article will be referred to WP:AFD (which will further decide the fate of the article). Please refer to the debate above for the argument of both sides, and debate may also continue below. All votes should be signed.
Please add your vote below of either Merge or Don't Merge:

  • Merge Though the topic is not of importance in a scientific aspect, it seems to be of significance. Since the topics are not significant enough to warrant their own article, it seems to me it should be re-merged. -DMurphy 23:17, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
    • Don't Merge Considering the summary written and the recent additions to the other article, I feel the best way to go is to leave well enough alone and focus on what to do with the other article (but not merge it). -DMurphy 20:10, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Don't Merge. Wikipedia tradition is to put separate toppics into separate articles. There is absolutely no trace of similarity between pop-Higgs bosons and the "real" ones, with the exception of the name. I totally agree that a section "Fermat's last theorem in fiction" makes sense, because the topic is essentially the same. But in our case only the buzz-name is reused. `'mikka (t) 21:45, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge. Same topic. These are science-fiction treatments of a scientific concept. I don't understand where the urge to delete this information comes from. — goethean ॐ 22:04, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge I guess (I might vote delete if that were a choice, I'm not sure yet). Given the choices of this vote, I definitely have to say that giving it its own article is silly. Neither article are barely more than a stub, and giving pop versions of science article their own page is inappropriate for an encyclopedia and sets a bad precedent. -lethe talk + 22:05, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
    • Actually technically a delete vote would fall into Don't Merge, since if the consensus is Don't Merge the Pop culture article will be referred to WP:AfD. The options here are relatively irrelevant... the vote is whether or not the references should be included in the main article. -DMurphy 00:13, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
      • Yeah, but my main position is that I do not support an independent page. I can only vote don't merge contingent upon another vote that might not pass. Better to vote merge. -lethe talk + 00:22, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge. It should not be the role of the encyclopaedian to judge what is "useful" o "good" information beyond the limits of technicalities in an Encyclopedia (Ok, I know I am an Inclusionist). This is information and may be interesting for some people (as it is for me). One can, for example, try to understand why people in Soderbergh's Solaris talk about a "Higgs Field". It can also contain explanations why usages of scientific technobabble is correct or wrong in cultural references, providing a meaningful source of education. Besides, all around wikipedia, using "pop cultural references" sections seems prevalent. nihil 22:06, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Abstain. WHile I dislike the pseudoscience blather, I suppose I should be grateful that popular culture is interested in such a obscure and arcane topic. If it helps create interest in young students contemplating careers in science, that's great. Just don't let it degenerate into silliness. linas 22:22, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Don't merge. I agree with mikkalai that the pop culture Higgs bears no relation to what's described in Higgs boson. — Laura Scudder ☎ 23:40, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete or at least don't merge. Technobabble is not information, much less encyclopedic information. This material is of marginal interest even to the articles about the shows in question. (It is not mentioned in either of the articles related to the shows.) It is of zero interest to anyone interested in the Higgs boson. If anyone were to read this nonsense and confuse it with the physics of the Higgs boson, they would be dumber for having read Wikipedia, a situation I think is completely unacceptable. -- Xerxes 01:15, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge. As the particle itself is hypothetical, it is closer to science fiction than to fact in my opinion (...and before you berate me for making that statement, science fiction is more than just technobabble-enhanced fantasy storytelling: science fiction writers like Clarke and Niven have predicted several actual technological and social changes/inventions/discoveries. Who knows, the Higgs Boson might destroy earth! Or kill off ghosts...) Splarka (rant) 06:27, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
    Bzzzt. There is a vast ocean of difference between a scientific hypothesis and a tale of science fiction. This is a terribly basic misunderstanding of what science is, and how the scientific method works; I am appallled. Perhaps the above vote should be cast out, and said editor should consider abstaining until they gain some experience. linas 00:10, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
    We don't have scientific requirements for suffrage here at wikipedia. Let's be nice. -lethe talk + 00:12, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes, perhaps I was too mean, I apologize. But there's an awful lot of nonsense that goes on, and I find it quite exhausting. Surely there's a better way. linas 00:22, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge - the main article is strong enough to withstand the presence of a couple of slightly silly but also mildly interesting or amusing pop culture references (and if it isn't, strengthen it!). They certainly don't belong in a separate article. - toh 15:02, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge - For reasons stated above, and the same reasons toh stated. I feel that pop culture references strengthen Wikipedia; no one wants it to be too dry.. --Quasar 23:36, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Delete or Don't Merge. Mixing real science and science fiction just dilutes and corrupts the science. There's already too much confusion and ignorance in the general public about what science really is. I agree with Xerxes.Rotiro 05:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Don't merge. I wouldn't mind if it was actual appearences of the Higgs boson in popular culture, but this is just other things that were randomly named the Higgs boson as technobabble. -- SCZenz 16:49, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge many other articles have sub-sections that talk about the thing in questions in popular culture, so why not? The pointer outer 23:04, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge Many articles have a, "In popular culture" section, and the Higgs Boson should be no exception. Nintenfreak 20:59, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Merge Some pop culture will not kill the article, only strenghten it. Steve Max 22:05, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Don't merge. Very nonnotable mentions and showing no possible actual relation besides the name. Mukadderat 00:45, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Don't merge. Fiction writers are free to appropriate whatever ideas they want and paint them in any colors they fancy, and they do. Writing may make them famous but doesn't make their stories true. Scientists have a much harder time of it, and the ideas of Peter Higgs and his 1960s collaborators have had a particularly long and difficult time. The LHC coming on line in 2007 may finally provide a signature of the Higgs boson. Background for the Higgs and its literary references are in the traditional pattern of SciFi with art imitating nature, or at least its scientific students. The reverse pattern held with the quark, which Murray Gell-Mann chose as a whimsical name for his physics concept based on an offhand remark in Finnegans Wake. In both cases, however, later imitators sought prestige from the scientific concept and not the literary one. As with "quark," the hard-won scientific idea should get the page, and the page should refer to disambiguation for other uses of the word or phrase. --Craig Bolon 16:41, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Don't merge For the reasons I have already given. The portrail of the HB was not accurate. It will confuse people and implant bad ideas in their heads. If it was rewritten to not mention any psuedo-scientific ideas, then I would abstain. CHF 10:10, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disambiguation

I would definitely recommend at least a disambiguation page for these articles. (The scientific and the pop culture versions of Higgs boson). scienceman 13:17, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

  • There's no need for a third page to disambiguate two topics... if there were a third topic, I would agree, but that is not the case. I think that issue should be addressed if the pop culture article holds up in both here and AFD (by adding a link to it at the top of the article in italicized form), but until then the articles are already linked to each other and adding the text would just muddy the waters on this issue more. -DMurphy 00:11, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
    • Seconded. `'mikka (t) 21:45, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
      • Thirded. This might be needed for something like Neutronium (the hypothetical state of matter, and the mineral from star wars), but in both pop culture references, they refer to the actual theoretical particle. Splarka (rant) 06:27, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Category:In popular culture

See the content of the above category. WAS 4.250 17:43, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps the controversial article could be merged into an article called "particle physics in popular culture"? -- Xerxes 18:23, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I think that is an excellent idea. You know, in the Tarkovsky version of Solaris, it was netruinos, not Higgs bosons, that formed the aliens or whatever (I don't know what it was in Lem's story, probably netrinos as well). An article that covered all particle physics in pop culture could have a section on neutrinos. Or why stop there? Why not have an article called modern physics in popular culture? It could do not only neutrinos, Higgs bosons, and antimatter, but black holes, wormholes, extra dimensions, and dark energy as well. -lethe talk + 20:47, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I think "Modern Physics" is a bit too broad, considering the huge number of sci-fi prose pertaining to science out there, but I do think a Particle Physics in pop culture article seems reasonable. -DMurphy 21:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
OK, maybe you're right. To include all of mordern physics would entail a catalogue of 25% of all sci-fi works. But anyway, the point is, while I don't support a separate page for Higgs bosons in pop fiction, I would support a page for particle physics in pop fiction, with a heading for Higgs bosons, and a link from this article. -lethe talk + 22:15, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] How about a compromise?

I'm going to put a short subsection into this article, that very briefly mentions the idea of the Higgs boson being used in popular culture, and then refers to the other article—in analogy with what is currently done in dark matter. Let me know what you think. -- SCZenz 23:51, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The difference between this situation and Dark matter is that the pop culture article here can't really survive on its own (or avoid AfD). Unless more references are added, it's going to be tough to justify keeping the article at all. Right now the vote is 8-5 in favor of the merge. The question is more than just whether or not the facts are relevant to the main article, but also if they can survive on their own at all. I think making a Particle Physics article (as mentioned above) would successfully solve this problem, but I also know that if the consensus is to merge the facts, that's what should be done, instead of maintaining a second article which, as of now, has only 3 references, one of which is unverified. -DMurphy 03:16, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
The votes above depended on the options presented. I would change my vote to the particle physics option we discussed. I'm just waiting for someone to be bold. -lethe talk + 03:25, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I think there are a lot more pop culture references to the Higgs boson than have been put in yet—I've watched the dark matter (fiction) article expand greatly over a relatively short time. I also think that a highly-tangential subject being too weak to stand on its own is a very dubious reason to stuff it into the main article. (This article should be more readable to laypeople, sure, but it should be about the physics concept.) As for the poll, all it shows is that there's no consensus yet. So by all means, if you want to make an article on particle physics in pop culture, go for it. -- SCZenz 07:28, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I actually like the idea of how it is now, with the subsection. I think it works and it's a good compromise. However, it doesn't solve the problem of what to do with the other article. As it seems that, as you said, there is no consensus, something needs to be done with the other article, whether it be putting it into a Particle Physics in pop culture article, adding more (cited, hopefully) references to make it a legitimate article, or, if all else fails, put it up for AfD and let that program work the situation out. Until that happens, though, I think a merger is still a viable option. There has yet to be a consensus on whether or not the subject is "highly tangential," and this has been debated for over a year. I think forming the other article into something legitimate and non AfD-able would satisfy both sides, but until that happens the debate on whether or not the facts should be included in the main article will continue. After all, this has been going on for a year (though the other article has only existed for a month) and almost nothing has been done to add to the references, so I'm a bit skeptical that if we throw out the merger idea and just let the article develop that it will actually turn into something worthwhile. Sorry, but I think we need to see some progress before the problem is solved. When we have at least 5 cited references on the other page, or if the other page is merged into Particle physics in pop culture, then I think we can consider the matter solved and remove the merger idea. -DMurphy 23:06, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't mind leaving the merger tags for a while; that can serve as the status quo until something else happens as far as I'm concerned. However, I'd like to make two points also:
  1. Nobody will delete the pop culture article, even as-is, for one very important reason: the physicists who edit physics articles and take their content seriously like the fact that there's somewhere else for people to put random pop culture trivia. Deleting that outlet is the last thing we want.
  2. On the question of whether the material is highly tangential, let me make one thing clear. It is my opinion as a professional (albeit lowly) particle physicist that the things called "Higgs bosons" in the sci-fi references do not accurately reflect the properties of the Standard Model Higgs boson, nor are do they reflect theoretically plausible variants on its properties. At best, they use its name and (vaguely) the idea that it has something to do with the origin of mass (and one of them mixes it up with magnetic monopole searches). I don't know of anyone here who has the technical expertise to dispute that view and disagrees with it; I mean no insult when I say that my view is based on a lot of knowledge, and that those lacking that knowledge aren't in a position to reasonable dispute it. Reading above, I see some harsh words have been spoken precisely because other physicsts (most of whom know more than me) have taken insult at some implications that we pull the details of hypothetical particles out of our asses; believe me, we don't. I think experts who take the time to contribute on subjects we know a lot about should be respected; that doesn't mean we own the articles, but it does mean that our views should not be overruled based on random people saying "I disagree, and my opinion is just as good as yours." All that being said, I suppose it's possible to dispute whether something that's called a Higgs boson, but isn't, is "highly tangential" to the article or not—that's mostly a matter of semantics.
Anyway, the status quo is cool with me. In the meantime, I'm going to do some work making adding detail to this article, and maybe making it more readable to the general public as well. -- SCZenz 23:37, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
The pop culture article certainly won't be taken to AfD by any physicists (SCZenz is exactly right on that one in my opinion). I don't mind a short summary section, but for me a merge is scary because I can see the article being taken over by an incredibly long section of pop references that are really just jargon being thrown around. — Laura Scudder ☎ 01:04, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Very good point... considering the size of the pop culture article at the moment, it very well could take over the Higgs Boson article. I'm thinking it's best to just leave things the way they are, but I'm just not sure what to do with the vote at this point... we can't just ignore those people who want to merge. -DMurphy 20:07, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Polls gauge consensus. We've talked since the poll started, and the consensus among seriously interested editors is now leaning away from the old poll (which was divided in any case). In such circumstances, it is not ignoring people who cast a merge "vote" to agree that not merging is best after all. -- SCZenz 20:19, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I voted merge, but I'm not going to call for a recount if the merge doesn't happen. -lethe talk + 03:17, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Another option which doesn't seem to have been brought up yet is to merge the content into Fictional applications of real materials. --Ed (Edgar181) 20:46, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Calling the Higgs field a material is a stretch. -- SCZenz 21:01, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Units

The units for the masses are given in GeV, but aren't the units for mass GeV/c²? Or have I missed something somewhere? 138.253.202.101 01:52, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

You're right, of course. We physicists are habitually lazy about this sort of thing; that is, when we write a mass in GeV we all know we mean GeV/c². (In general we set c = 1, and h-bar=1 too, make calculations without them, and then insert the correct number of each constant by dimensional analysis if we need to.) Anyway, for Wikipedia purposes, I think it's helpful to be clear, so I'll put the c² in. -- SCZenz 02:01, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
I've changed my mind about adding c² to the article, as it would have looked rather cumbersome. Instead, I made sure that GeV is wikilinked so that anyone who's curious about this question can see the Electronvolt#Using electronvolts to measure mass section which explains this. -- SCZenz 02:05, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
[Edit conflict]: There are many different units for mass, including kilograms, pounds, stones, tons, GeV and GeV/c2. The last two units are equal if you work in units where c=1, which is often done. -lethe talk + 02:03, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Supersymmetry?

It might be nice to have some further discussion of the role of and predictions about the Higgs boson in standard model extensions (such as supersymmetry). Maybe someone who is knowledgable about SUSY can make some additions?

[edit] Indecipherable

I seem to be saying this too often, which suggests it's my fault, but I can't understand the "explanation". That's a bad sign, I actually have a little physics background.

"which permeates every place in the universe at all times."

Sooo, is this field non-local? If so, isn't that a little more interesting than this statement suggests? And if not, isn't this statement somewhat unclear?

"The existence of this non-zero VEV plays a fundamental role: it gives mass to every elementary particle, including to the Higgs boson itself."

Like photons? What about neutrinos?

"In particular, the acquisition of a non-zero VEV spontaneously breaks the electroweak gauge symmetry, a phenomenon known as the Higgs mechanism."

As it stands this statement is completely non-explanatory. It relies on references to other unexplained terms and concepts. No, I don't expect this article to explain these in detail, but certainly what this means overall is something that it should attempt.

I found a semi-understandable overview in Constructing Quarks, but I'm not up to merging it usefully.

Maury 21:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] hard!

I try to follow studies in quantum physics as much as I can, but... I understand nothing of this article... I hope wikipedia doesn't turn into a source only for professors with multiple Ph.Ds.

Read Peskin & Schroeder's Introduction to QFT. And yes, quantum field theory is even more complicated than quantum physics. Remember one thing: many physics professors treat quantum field theory rather like folklore than strict mathematics. There are even nobel prize winners who write books that don't contain much mathematical sense...
Did I read that right: "Read {a book}" to understand a Wikipedia entry? Surely the ridiculousness of that is obvious? 216.185.5.254 (talk) 12:58, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Edits by Impunv (talk · contribs)

This looks like classic WP:OR, quoting from the user's own blog. Please prove me wrong.

The belief in Higgs bosons comes from the belief that all objects are invariant under gauge transformations, which strongly disagrees with experiment. Instead of giving that belief up it is kept, because physicists are emotionally attached to it, and a new field, that of Higgs bosons, is introduced to give objects mass. However gauge transformations are the form Poincaré transformations take for massless objects and are possible only for these. See Massless Representations of the Poincaré Group: electromagnetism, gravitation, quantum mechanics, geometry, although it can be explained in one obvious paragraph as given in Our Almost Impossible Universe: Why the laws of nature make the existence of humans extraordinarily unlikely: R. Mirman. For complete information see impunv.blogspot.com. They cannot be applied to massive objects and it makes no sense to so apply them. That would be like saying that since orbital angular momentum has integer values all angular momentum has. Since this is not true a new field is introduced to produce half-integer values. That would make no sense and neither do Higgs bosons. There are no Higgs bosons.

  • Mirman, R. (2006). [impunv.blogspot.com Massless Representations of the Poincaré Group: electromagnetism, gravitation, quantum mechanics, geometry], republished by Backinprint.com an imprint of iUniverse, Inc.,, Commack, NY: Nova Science Publishers, Inc.,, 213. ISBN = 1-56072-259-2. 
  • Mirman, R. (2006). [impunv.blogspot.com Our Almost Impossible Universe: Why the laws of nature make the existence of humans extraordinarily unlikely]. Lincoln, NE: iUniverse, inc., 523. ISBN = 0-595-37841-2. 

If there are more acceptable sources for this text, please bring them here for checking before adding it back. HTH HAND —Phil | Talk 22:07, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Obviously, even if other sources are found, the style of writing would need to be made more encyclopedic. But yes, I agree, it looks like OR. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 22:11, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Impunv just added it all back with no edit comment. I've removed it again. Please discuss the issue here before re-inserting any of the text. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 23:49, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

One thing that struck me as odd is the statement "They cannot be applied to massive objects and it makes no sense to so apply them. That would be like saying that since orbital angular momentum has integer values all angular momentum has. Since this is not true a new field is introduced to produce half-integer values. That would make no sense and neither do Higgs bosons. There are no Higgs bosons." Partly because it's not clear what is referred to with 'they' and partly because the conclusion "There are no Higgs bosons." doesn't rhyme well with the experimental search for it. If it can be proved by reasoning that there is no such thing as a Higgs boson, how come scientists are searching for it? How come they have seen detections which may be interpreted as the existance of the boson? Zheft | Talk 11:42, 10 February 2007 (CET)

[edit] Intro

"It is the only Standard Model particle not yet observed, " this is a bit cavalier . . . the quarks haven't been observed and unlikely to be in my lifetime (due to confinement). I suggest this be reworded - alot. --66.194.118.10 22:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC) D.A. York

The text is consistent with scientific consensus and with reasonable constraints on the word "observed". Some of the history is described at Quark#History and Deep Inelastic Scattering. Melchoir 22:52, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
The top quark can also be directly observed since it decays before it gets to hadronize. Bodhitha 13:43, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
No. Not directly. *More* directly because its properties determine that decay.

[edit] God particle

I know there has already been a lot of discussion here about this alternative name for Higgs, but does anyone object to having "God Particle" redirect here? (Currently it does not) Originalname37 15:57, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Redirect should be fine, unless an article gets written about the book The God Particle by Leon Lederman. The article says that the Higgs boson "is affectionately known among scientists as the 'God particle'," but I think that was Lederman's own coining, and I don't really hear it from physicists. It mostly seems to come up in popular press reports on physics. Not really wrong, but perhaps the "among scientists" isn't needed. --Reuben 15:07, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I have a small issue with the first sentence: "The Higgs boson, also known as the "God Particle", is a hypothetical..." I'm a researcher in high energy particle physics and I've never heard it being called "God Particle" in the professional community. I believe the term "God Particle" is a popularization of the Higgs boson; so I recommend that the first sentence be rewritten to reflect this: "The Higgs boson, popularized as the "God Particle", is a hypothetical..." (Perhaps a citation on a popular book whose title is "The God Particle" might be useful, too.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by TriTertButoxy (talk • contribs) 04:03, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] An Amusing Phrase

The article states "the Higgs boson has an enormous effect on the world around us." Well, yes, but so does every other elementary particle out there. The Higgs isn't special in any way in terms of "effect on the world around us." —Preceding unsigned comment added by FredricRice (talk • contribs) 20:06, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merger proposal

Just noticed that there was a Higgs field stub. I don't see any reason to maintain a page regarding the Higgs field (which I guess is a mathematical abstraction) separately from the Higgs boson (the actual particle, if it exists). Any thoughts?

Jtuggle 02:00, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I made the change. No information was lost.

Jtuggle 16:48, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What does this mean?

"Tevatron results continue to hint at a Higgs mass near the low end of the allowed range, presenting a potentially awkward situation to the LHC project."
--JWSchmidt 14:24, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

It does seem unnecessary, given that the preceeding couple of paragraphs give more substantial information. I'll remove it.

Jtuggle 03:30, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Graviton

The Graviton is not a particle in the Standard Model. I have removed references to it as such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.107.231.18 (talk) 07:51, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, so why is it still written? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.101.45.13 (talk) 17:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Is an Encyclopedic entry the same as a textbook (entry) ?

Could this article be made a little more accessible? I suggest that the text here is a little too technical and advanced for any other than physics students. If the same approach were taken everywhere in Wiki the project would stop being an Encyclopedia and become a collection of erudite but inaccessible texts. Specifically for anyone grappling with the unfamiliar terminology, the reference to the Vacuum Expectation Value links to a page that contains only mathematical explanations of the term. Also there are confusing grammars - Surely: If THE Higgs Field permeates everywhere at all timesd then there cannot be more than one of them so the term "A Higgs Filed seems an odd term. LookingGlass (talk) 11:42, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


I am no physicist and as such cannot understand half the article... This seems to be a rather advanced subject, and people who really are interested in advanced subjects without mastering them will find the info and understand the technical stuff one day. As long as it is clear and concise, I see no need to simplify the article. 82.16.205.213 (talk) 07:26, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Higgs = dark matter ?

Are the Higgs particles part of the so called dark matter ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alphachapmtl (talk • contribs) 22:03, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What about falsification?

I realize that if LHC find the Higg's, this will proof the Standard Model. If LHC won't find it, there are other models higgless. So... is it impossible to falsify the Standard Model, any mistake will always have a branch of spaghetti-code backup theories? I think it's not correct. Scientists made this falsification claim and simulatneusly they made a parachute for the Standard Model. Poor Popper...83.103.38.68 (talk) 16:42, 14 April 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Confusing tag

I'm not sure this article deserves the {{Confusing}} template. There are LOTS of articles in Wikipedia, especially in physics and math, that are more confusing than this one and are not tarred with that label. -DrGaellon (talk | contribs) 17:35, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

It's quantum mechanics... To quote Richard Feynman, "Anyone who says that they understand Quantum Mechanics does not understand Quantum Mechanics". In otherwords, most quantum mechanics is too advanced for even quantum physicists to understand. Asking to simplify it for lamens to read is near impossible. All you would be left with would be "A theoratical particle that may give things mass.". I move to remove the tag. Syxxness (talk) 19:30, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merger from Higgs boson in popular culture

Moved over from duplicate talk page... note that this has been discussed before. -- SCZenz (talk) 13:18, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Should be merged... there doesn't seem to be enough content in this article to warrant a separate page. Countless other articles have a pop culture section on the article's page, why shouldn't this article? -DMurphy 23:41, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Physicis editors have objected to this strenuously for a long time. The problem is that popular culture references to the "Higgs boson" usually have nothing in common with the actual concept except that the writer of the reference had heard the name somewhere. Thus the content of Higgs boson in popular culture has no meaningful relation to the content of Higgs boson, and it was pointlessly swamping the article. -- SCZenz (talk) 13:12, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
The Higgs in Pop Culture article is a hodge-podge of useless trivia, which owes itself to the peculiar entertainment choices of random wiki hobbyists. If it must persist, at least keep it away. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.104.160.40 (talk) 02:18, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I am against merger of the two articles. The main reason is that the "popular culture" bit is basically a trivia section. Bubba73 (talk), 00:59, 19 May 2008 (UTC)