Talk:Hiberno-Scottish mission

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Assessment comments The following comments were left by the assessors: (edit · refresh) I see it has been suggested that the Iro--Scottish mission entry be " merged " with the one on the Anglo-Saxon " mission " ....This is a quite outrageous piece of cultural imperialism, as this would involve a grossly misleading confusion of the two cultures - ESPECIALLY as the culture performing the " mission " ( the Celts ) would be in danger of being conflated with the culture in receipt of the mission ( the Anglo-Saxons ) - and would be an example of the historical distortion and conceptual violence that was to attend the imperialist project of the British State( of cultural assimilation of the Celts ) that of course was to take place forcibly over succeeding centuries ( I cannot think it a coincidence, therefore, that this piece of neo-imperialist historical revisionism is suggested in the context of something called the " Northern Ireland " project, itself the latest example of this imperialism, the name of which is a poltical fiction based upon a geographic/cultural myth, and a denial of the self-determination of the Irish people as a nation, and also a failed unit of sovereignty as is now increasingly obvious to everyone except the Unionists...culturally rejected now even by those " Anglo-Saxons " upon whom they have absurdly modelled themselves ( i.e. the ACTUAL British...) 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Article Grading: The following comments were left by the quality and importance raters: (edit · refresh) I see it has been suggested that the Iro--Scottish mission entry be " merged " with the one on the Anglo-Saxon " mission " ....This is a quite outrageous piece of cultural imperialism, as this would involve a grossly misleading confusion of the two cultures - ESPECIALLY as the culture performing the " mission " ( the Celts ) would be in danger of being conflated with the culture in receipt of the mission ( the Anglo-Saxons ) - and would be an example of the historical distortion and conceptual violence that was to attend the imperialist project of the British State( of cultural assimilation of the Celts ) that of course was to take place forcibly over succeeding centuries ( I cannot think it a coincidence, therefore, that this piece of neo-imperialist historical revisionism is suggested in the context of something called the " Northern Ireland " project, itself the latest example of this imperialism, the name of which is a poltical fiction based upon a geographic/cultural myth, and a denial of the self-determination of the Irish people as a nation, and also a failed unit of sovereignty as is now increasingly obvious to everyone except the Unionists...culturally rejected now even by those " Anglo-Saxons " upon whom they have absurdly modelled themselves ( i.e. the ACTUAL British...) 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Article Grading: The following comments were left by the quality and importance raters: (mission/Comments|action=edit}} edit · refresh) I see it has been suggested that the Iro--Scottish mission entry be " merged " with the one on the Anglo-Saxon " mission " ....This is a quite outrageous piece of cultural imperialism, as this would involve a grossly misleading confusion of the two cultures - ESPECIALLY as the culture performing the " mission " ( the Celts ) would be in danger of being conflated with the culture in receipt of the mission ( the Anglo-Saxons ) - and would be an example of the historical distortion and conceptual violence that was to attend the imperialist project of the British State( of cultural assimilation of the Celts ) that of course was to take place forcibly over succeeding centuries ( I cannot think it a coincidence, therefore, that this piece of neo-imperialist historical revisionism is suggested in the context of something called the " Northern Ireland " project, itself the latest example of this imperialism, the name of which is a poltical fiction based upon a geographic/cultural myth, and a denial of the self-determination of the Irish people as a nation, and also a failed unit of sovereignty as is now increasingly obvious to everyone except the Unionists...culturally rejected now even by those " Anglo-Saxons " upon whom they have absurdly modelled themselves ( i.e. the ACTUAL British...) 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Article Grading: The following comments were left by the quality and importance raters: (edit · refresh) I see it has been suggested that the Iro--Scottish mission entry be " merged " with the one on the Anglo-Saxon " mission " ....This is a quite outrageous piece of cultural imperialism, as this would involve a grossly misleading confusion of the two cultures - ESPECIALLY as the culture performing the " mission " ( the Celts ) would be in danger of being conflated with the culture in receipt of the mission ( the Anglo-Saxons ) - and would be an example of the historical distortion and conceptual violence that was to attend the imperialist project of the British State( of cultural assimilation of the Celts ) that of course was to take place forcibly over succeeding centuries ( I cannot think it a coincidence, therefore, that this piece of neo-imperialist historical revisionism is suggested in the context of something called the " Northern Ireland " project, itself the latest example of this imperialism, the name of which is a poltical fiction based upon a geographic/cultural myth, and a denial of the self-determination of the Irish people as a nation, and also a failed unit of sovereignty as is now increasingly obvious to everyone except the Unionists...culturally rejected now even by those " Anglo-Saxons " upon whom they have absurdly modelled themselves ( i.e. the ACTUAL British...) 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[edit] Merge

• Oppose - merger with Anglo-Saxon mission. --MacRusgail 20:56, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
• I'm not so convinced. There is a case for a merge. The Anglo-Saxon mission began in Northumbria, organised by Ecghberht ("Christ's Knight" say the Irish annals), educated in Ireland and sufficiently Hibernian in sympathies to be Abbot of Iona. Saint Kilian and Saint Colman seem linked to Ecgberht's efforts. Turning what could be one big shiny featured-quality article into two patchy ones is not so great. On the whole, I think I'd prefer an article on "Insular missions", if that wouldn't be original research. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:05, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose Related but not the same. England, Scotland & Ireland remain seperate provinces of the Catholic church to this day. Johnbod 03:25, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose as they were distinct, are are distinct, missions and provinces. 15:34, 6 July 2007 (UTC) (here) as distinct missions, persons, purposes, and provinces. Bearian (there)15:35, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
• This should not be discussed at two or three places, I suggest keeping it here (and I did put a note on the other article). On Wikipedia:Proposed mergers (Aug '06) is some support to merge (1 or 2 against only the hereabove Bearian, who like myself wants to keep this discussion open; I do not recognize any value at all in the on Anglo-Saxon mission talk page unargumented utterly anonymous IP-user's exclamation, in particular since that user has only 3 edits on WP. On this Hiberno-Scottish mission talk page there are two further 'Oppose' (MacRusgail without any argumentation, and Johnbod with a short argumentation) and one 'Support' (Angus McLellan stating not to be so convinced about opposing while making a case to support the merger and a suggestion to that respect). The removal of the merge-tags is entirely unacceptable as long as this merger did not take place, as there are 2 or 3 contributors in favour for a merger and 3 opposing such. The comment about Saint Rumbold in Anglo-Saxon mission talk page section 'Earliest monastery founded by Anglo-Saxons on the continent' strongly undermines the argument of opposers: if it cannot be determined whether a saint is a Hiberno-Scottish or an Anglo-Saxon missionary, there ostentatively is no clear distinction between the persons or their missions. I do not grasp the argument about different 'provinces': at the historical time of Hiberno-Scottish missionaries, which 'distinct' Church provinces would that have been? — SomeHuman 07 Jul 2007 10:48-11:05 (UTC)
• OPPOSE - these are two big fields which both could grow into large articles. Combining them will not help that. But they could cross-reference more fully and support one another better. No merge, though. The missions may have been parallel, but Celtic and Catholic Christianity were entirely different things at this time. --Doric Loon 13:43, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

In case the article would grow too large, one might consider a split; for now both articles contain hardly enough material for one decent article. I am not at all convinced that Celtic and Catholic missionaries at there time considered themselves "entirely different": this is more likely a distinction one has emphasized afterwards (in 'The Thruth' versus 'false prophets' discussions). That argument is also contraditionary with the distinction being made based upon their specific time settings. Both topics' similarities and continuity appear stronger than the distinctions (the Anglo-Saxon missions have several distinctions between themselves as well) and might better lead to an article name that covers both subtopics. — SomeHuman 07 Jul 2007 16:04 (UTC)

• Support Merge SomeHuman is right, at this point we have to look at first consolidating what we have. As pointed out above, if the article gets too big, we can easily split it. At this time we should look at turning these two pages into something more tied in. To me, Anglo-Saxon mission appears to be more useful within Hiberno-Scottish mission - retains context and is more informative. After resolving the contradictions (if any), I think the articles would do better as one. xC | ☎ 10:35, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose If we merge these, we may as well merge each and every article on the various Christian Missions we have. The Celtic Church and that of the Anglo-Saxons were two seperate organizations, and the peoples entirely distinct. Image:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn Image:Icons-flag-scotland.png 07:52, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

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