Talk:Heysel Stadium Disaster

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Archive
Archives
  1. April 2006 – March 2007

Contents

[edit] Cause of deaths?

I've seen a few edits now that state that the main cause of death was suffocation from being trampled on. I have reverted the edit in question as it was not sourced, and neither have I ever read this from a reputable website. Could someone please point me to the relevent source, if indeed there is one? Cheers, aLii 23:36, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm the one who stated that the cause of the disaster was not a wall collapsing on top of the crowd but rather the immense pressure from a fleeing crowd that caused a wall to collapse, most victims suffocated in the crowd crush that caused the wall to collapse. So in fact most of the deaths had already occurred when the wall gave in. I'm from Belgium and know rather well what happened there. If one goes to the Dutch Wikipedia page on the same subject you will find that I am in fact correct as the facts stated there are the same as what I said. Unfortunately there is little chance you actually speak dutch. But I have come to realize, in search of a reputable source, that US articles on the disaster usually misstate the facts. The wall did not collapse on top of them. The victims were either trampled to death or suffocated from compression asphyxiation. Please contact the administrators on the Dutch Wikipedia for a translation of the article they have. That gives a far more complete and correct representation of the disaster. [1] --Marjolijn 15:16, 11 Oktober 2007 (CET)

I found this video in which one can clearly see the accident as it happens. Especially the crowd crush that caused the deaths. I apologize for using an Italian spoken video, which I know is against Wikipedia policy. But the words aren't important. I which to use the images to clarify the events that occurred. This one simply had the best angles and quality and most full depiction of the tragedy. WARNING FOR EXTREMELY GRAPHIC IMAGES. Pay attention to the crushing crowd on the left side of the screen. You can clearly see the people trapped against the wall on the left and against the fences bordering the playing field on the bottom of the screen. Suffocating (gasping for breath and bluish lips and skin) and clearly in distress. They are pinned down and cannot escape unless pulled free. The wall has not collapsed yet on these images. But it is clear that the wall did not and never did collapse on the crowd. The crowd is pinned up against it. It eventually fell down onto a lower level (clear of crowd) and most importantly it fell away from the crowd. Again I warn for Graphic images. But this gross error should be corrected. It's a disgrace to the memory of the victims and survivors. [2] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.134.92.189 (talk) 21:16, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


Cause of deaths? Murder by Koppite. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jw2034 (talk • contribs) 22:43, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 2005 Juventus vs. Liverpool tie

I still don't understand why mention of match details is particularly relevant to the Heysel Stadium disaster? Sure mention the final score, but goal-scorers, and bad refereeing decisions seem to be taking it a bit too far.

  • Friendship gestures and how they were received by Juventus fans is relevant.
  • Crowd violence is relevant, as this is an article about crowd violence.
  • The score is relevant, seeing as the match is mentioned.

Could you please explain why "although there was controversy since Juventus were disallowed a legit goal" is relevant? I can't even remember that a goal was disallowed. All I remember of the tie was that Liverpool won deservedly, and that Juventus were surprisingly poor in the match in Turin — neither of which are mentioned, and rightly so. aLii 19:37, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

you can read the link I supplied (Guardian transcript). Del Piero scored a perfectly legitimate header and the goal was disallowed. This is a fact that happened (not a question of memory I believe). The small relevance is because this goal was crucial for the final result. The BIG relevance is because controversy is mentioned about the original match in Heysel. What's the relevance that the penalty was supposedly undeserved to the disaster ? None. None of the riots happened because of the result... the riots were before the match , and there doesn't seem to be any relevance between the disaster and the alleged controversy in the heysel match. So as I see it, to remain WP:NPOV here, there are two choices. Either remove the criticizm over the penalty in heysel, or include this controversy as well - it shows that Juventus did not earn unjustly and that Livperpool eventually gained from a bad referre decision as well, all this in context of Juve Liverpool relations (there might have been hostile feelings over both results because of the bad referrering, and this might affect the future too) . Amoruso 21:12, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I've taken out the two NPOV bits, which I found distasteful as well as unencyclopedic. --Guinnog 21:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough, removing both is probably the correct thing to do. I can't say I wrote that bit, and I've never seen the 1985 game, so can't comment, but like Guinnog implies; Who cares about the (1985) match? It can be written up in a match article if someone does. aLii 00:11, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Historiography

The standard historiography is that it was Juventus fans who caused Liverpool fans to surge towards the Juventus congregation. Juve started the throwing material from the stadium, rubble, terrace poles, etc.

Liverpool fans moving towards Juve fans caused pressure on an aging wall, this wall collapsed, as the pressure of the Juve fans against it.

The article needs a great deal of attention as it is heavily biased, and flies in the face of the standard historiography. Londo06 05:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The article is pretty well sourced, can you provide some sources to back your version of events? May I also point out that most Italians that visit this article this that this version is biased towards Liverpool. aLii 14:01, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I feel the article does not go deeply enough into the accepted version of events, being the cyclical series of events, Juve - Liverpool - Juve. That is accepted, and proved by television footage. Alexsanderson83 09:18, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I didn't watch the match on TV, and have seen no (good) sources that claim to know such a definitive version of what happened, and who started what. I've read that Liverpool fans started the disruptions. I've also read that Juve fans started it. I've seen no definitive proof either way, hence the vagueness of the article. If someone can find such proof, then it can be added to the article. aLii 10:02, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Accepted version is that Juve fans instigated the problems, Liverpool fans fought back, and were forced back, this pushed the Liverpool fans towards another section of Juve fans. The end result a wall collapsing on Juve fans. Juve fans dead, meant that the initial UEFA stance was one sided. This is the view of academics and authorities alike. No group of fans blameless, but Juve fans, be the extreme elements or not, did start the problems. Liverpool fans reacted, no doubt. But the accepted academic viewpoint is that Juventus fans were more at fault than the Liverpool fans, the deciding factor was that Juve fans died. Londo06 11:20, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, lets go through the various sources already cited on the page;
  • The Times: Our day of shame: A Liverpool fan recalls how events spiralled out of control
    "on the terraces there was an exchange of missiles"
  • LiverpoolFC.tv - Liverpool FC official website
    "both sets of fans baited each other through a segregating fence made from chicken wire. After a sustained period of missiles raining down on the Reds end, some Liverpool fans charged at their Italian counterparts and as chaos took over"
  • The Times: Night of mayhem in Brussels that will never be forgotten
    "Italians in that section pelted the Liverpool supporters with missiles. In response, the English charged at them and breached the fence."
  • The Guardian: Liverpool still torn over night that shamed their name
    "Many accounts, including the club's version on its website, cite missile throwing by Italian fans as the spark for violence, a claim contested by other eye-witnesses, but the broad facts are uncontested."
  • The Guardian: Lost lives that saved a sport
    "As the kick-off drew nearer, Liverpool fans began to shower the 'Italian' fans with beer cans, stones, with whatever came to hand. When the 'Italians' responded in kind, the enraged Liverpool fans stormed the no mans' land and the fencing and found, to their surprise, they had free rein."
  • The Guardian: The Witnesses
    Otello Lorentini (Juve fan): "I was relaxing, reading a newspaper, when I saw a single English hooligan. He jumped over a small fence and came charging towards us. Then, many more followed. They had lumps of terrace concrete, Coke bottles, beer bottles, rocks and even knifes. Everyone panicked."
    Simone Stenti (Juve fan): "When the Liverpool players came out to greet their fans before the game, I could not believe what I saw. A rocket was fired into our sector and two Liverpool players applauded. I thought they were appreciating the fans’ enthusiasm. But, then a second rocket was fired at us and the same two players clapped. I have my father to thank for my life. When the first Liverpool supporter charged into the sector, my father said: ‘Let’s go.’ I did not want to, because this was the European Cup final. I said: ‘Don’t worry, the police will arrive and it will be fine.’
    Giancarlo Galavotti (Italian journalist): "The riot police were outside the stadium, those inside the sector ran once the Liverpool fans started to attack them, and at one point those on the pitch actually prevented people from escaping over the fencing."
    Bill Sergeant (Detective Chief Inspector, Merseyside police): "There have been suggestions that the trouble was initiated by a single fan, but I am rather sceptical of that." "In my opinion, the tragedy resulted from a drink-fuelled aggressive response by Liverpool ‘fans’ to what they felt was unacceptable behaviour by Juventus supporters. They did not believe the Belgian police were protecting them."
So, we can safely say that some English say that the Juve fans started it, but some don't, and also that the Italians say that the Liverpool fans started it. aLii 14:14, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
As you can see there is not good justification for stating that the trouble was started by Juventus fans. You should both read through Wikipedia:Attribution. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a publisher of original thought. The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is whether material is attributable to a reliable published source, not whether it is true. Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy, or are authoritative in relation to the subject at hand. In general, the most reliable sources are books and journals published by universities, mainstream newspapers, and magazines and journals that are published by known publishing houses. Hope this helps you to understand where I'm coming from, aLii 14:31, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Londo, seeing as you have provided zero sources to back your claims, I'm afraid I'm going to remove your tag again. Please state exactly which parts of the article you are in disagreement with, and then state exactly which source refutes it, and how it does. Note: that the journal articles are not viewable to me. Free sources should be available if it the completely "accepted version is that Juve fans instigated the problems." Cheers, aLii 15:55, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Article wants to go further for the blame. Hardcore Juve fans started throwing stadium material, Liverpool retaliated, Juve and Liverpool regulars both caught in the middle. The considered outcome is that the harcore Juve were more to blame than the Liverpool, and that the regular Liverpool did more than Juve fans. Will find sources to corroborate the facts, to which the academic community and the football community at large ascribe to. 90.197.27.39 13:26, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

The stuff written above is right, but I'm not sure there is much out there on the internet. There is loads on the written word front that basically tells it like it is; Juve Ultras -> Liverpool hardcore retaliate -> Juve and Liverpool fans clash and the result was dead Italians. Initial outlook meant for a whitewash. Following investigations show the standard explanation of events, once again as written above. 194.75.128.200 22:54, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Got journal articles and published works, just struggling to find free online accreditation. Stuff that can be accessed online requires my details. Will continue to look for the historically accepted version of events that are available for free on the internet. Probably have a good look one day this month. 194.75.128.200 19:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

The article sounds even worst since the last few edits. Sounds even more biased. Suggest someone find a free journal site to sort this page out. Londo06 19:47, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Whereas I'm still not even sure which way you are saying that the article is biased! Do you believe that it is biased against Liverpool fans? Or do you believe it is biased against Juventus fans? aLii 19:10, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
The insertion that was removed (or possibly earlier) made it even more biased against Liverpool.

All the internet journals that are out there are pay-only, and therefore not free. There is a common position - the accepted history that I and others have said. Londo06 19:52, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Accepted by whom? The English? I suggest that you read through the "bias problems" that this page has from the Italian perspective, see Talk:Heysel Stadium disaster/Archive 1. I'll list a few examples:
  • Seriously, this article needs a complete rewrite. It's one of the worst examples of bias I've encountered on Wikipedia, and I've read quite a few (thousand). Well, I guess sh** happens if you write an article based on English newspapers covering an indicent caused by English hooliganism.
  • I am on the opinion you mention the facts of Rome just to justify the terrible behaviour of the hooligans.
  • It is not mentioned that the habitude of the English hooligans of “taking a curve” was absolutely unknown in Italy, so that most of the people simply had no idea about what was going on.
  • The description“ The second leg in Turin was played against a backdrop of crowd trouble as Juventus fans clashed with police, attacked Liverpool supporters and threw missiles” does not represent what actually happened.
  • The article also neglects to mention that Liverpool fans kept stabbing juventus supporters after the wall fell down. The article is biased and it wants people to think that it's all neutral, this is a trend ever since then.
  • some of the criticism against officials for not investigating further does come off protective of the Liverpool fans.
  • the author makes too much effort to lay blame on part of the Italian fans while minimising British hooligans involvement.
You really should read through the whole Archive though. You'll notice that it was me that was arguing for Liverpool. I am a local Liverpool fan after all. I agree with the Italians that this article should be as unbiased as possible though, and laying blame where there is no proof will not help anyone's cause or standing. aLii 07:32, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inquiries

"UEFA, the organizer of the event, the owners of Heysel Stadium and the Belgian police were never investigated for culpability. There was no official inquiry into the causes of the disaster" is to the best of my knowledge not accurate. There was a parlementary inquiry in Belgium where heavy blame was put on the police and it was reorganised after this and other affairs. As far as UEFA is concerned, sporting organisations always seem to regard themselves as being above the law, so probably that is true. --Maarten1963 01:04, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. Got any belgian links to back that up? I (shamefully) only speak English. aLii 12:38, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately I can't find the text of their report online anywhere, let alone an English version. For what it's worth here are a couple of sites in Dutch referring to it and the police reorganisation in particular that followed Heysel and Marc Dutroux: [3] [4] A Belgian court case following Heysel is mentioned (in English :-) here: [5] --Maarten1963 17:01, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article is worse now

Reads very differently from the current understanding of the events. The lack of free journal articles on the internet have seen this article become a bastardised version of events. Many scholars and academics would see this as a very limited examination of the events that led to the 39 deaths. Alexsanderson83 15:44, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

So improve it then. aLii 16:16, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Are you serious? This article is a joke. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.204.30.232 (talk) 05:48, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Names

If the two frenchmen dead in Heysel are "Jacques François" and "Claude Robert", I must add that their names sound extremely common, too much I'd say. I sound like those name were invented just to preserve anonymity of their families. What are the sources ? 82.240.207.81 (talk) 15:01, 22 December 2007 (UTC)